If the question is "Are SOE at it again?", the answer is always "yes"

Hi Jonathan, we had a confiscated one in the "lost, found and confiscated room" of the Police House where I grew up. I can remember playing cowboys and Indians with it in the garden before it went to the deva forge in Chester for destruction. Definately a luger and silencer. Many years later I purchased a Parker Hale moderator for my rifle. I had to wait for an addendum to my fac. It came, Interestingly, with an oiled paper instruction sheet and a nice, blued, rod to aid reassembly of the internal baffles. All the best.

When repeatedly screwing self tapping screws in plastic (as part of a strip, repair, rebuild requirement) I was taught to turn anti-clock wise untill you heard the "click" which meant you had picked up the original thread cut previously. If you just started at any point, you risked ripping out the hole it due course, because of a finite amount of plastic to form a thread. And my point is? Subsequently now with any thread, plastic or not, I always start by rotating counter-clock wise to pick up the original thread.

My guess for the usage of this gun, on top of the 2 theories you mentionned is that : - Either they wanted specifically a 7.65mm suppressed gun - They wanted to provide it to people that are used to the Luger: german resistance or german that fled to Great Britain but wanted to keep fighting.

I’ve always wondered whether it would be possible to suppress a toggle action. Now I know

I agree with your orientation of the baffles. The other way around and there would be no space between the plate and the first baffle. There is nothing to suggest that there could not have been some felt washers used inside the baffles, or even rubber wipes.

The witty tone in which Mr.Ferguson said "I'd be disappointed" shows beyond any doubt that he knows who's watching these videos. Excellent content.

This reminds me of a photo I saw of a couple of Royal Marines training in England during WWII…. But the interesting bit was that one of them was holding a Luger with a drum mag. It seems that at least some Special Operations personnel were a bit fond of the German tech.

Jonathan is basically doing educational gun asmr at this point. Very soothing.

From some of the writings of SOE agents/operatives here in Norway, SOE had a place in London where guys could "shop around" for guns and kit they wanted to take on ops. Switchblades, brass knuckles, pistols of every make and caliber as preferred was available alongside stuff up to and including amphetamines and cocaine.

Always loved the Luger and I love seeing them with suppressors too. Also that's a cool wrist watch you got there Jonathan!

Has a very "Wolfenstein-ish" look, I love it!

If I had to guess, it was a prototype for what would be an actual in use device. If there was a relatively available way to get waffenstamped lugers, I would certainly believe that for a niche "assassination tool" as this, a properly marked one would be preferential. This might also be more likely due to the lack of a true front sight and good condition.

If the apocalypse ever happens I'm heading to Royal Armouries. Even though I live in America.

Im glad youve made channel pls do more vids

I don't know about the added weight of the silencer, but I've got a 9mm Luger that runs modern subsonic ammo just fine.

In the 70's / 80's I handled & disassembled dozens of Parker Hale factory fresh suppressors all were cup down/cuts up from new

My guess is that the unique Luger mechanism just proved to work more reliably than conventional design semi autos with a moderator. Often these things are simply discovered by experimentation. No computer programs to simulate things in those days. Moderators do strange things to semi autos and often throw the cycle timing out. When I had my Browning Buckmark .22 carbine barrel shortened to 12 inches (legally and re-proofed I hasten to add!) and fitted a suppressor, it took me at least a hundred hours of gun-smithing to get it to function 100 per cent perfectly again. For an SOE agent, their life depended on 100 per cent reliability. Maybe the Luger with its toggle action and high precision close tolerance machining was not so badly effected as other designs especially, do not forget, when firing the quieter and less recoiling 7.65.

I saw a couple of these at the Combined Military Services Museum in Maldon, Essex, really cool looking weapon.

Wondering why another brass bead front sight post wasn't brazed onto the thread protector cap. It seems like an obvious and quick fix that would add considerably to the full function of the pistol in its carry state.

That weapon is also available to the player in "Shadow of the Tomb Raider'. The silencer isn't removable though. I assumed it was a conceit for the game. Although not that surprised. As "there always is a prototype." Or the SOE having ideas.

More SOE and secret sneaky stuff please!

I was going to say that I had the 007 suppressed Luger toy as a child, but thinking about it now it was a Walther P38 that had the suppressor, I also had a 007 Luger at the same time. Also had a metal toy Luger cap gun with a working elbow action. Loved that thing. Seems toy guns aren't really a thing with kids anymore sadly. Lovely gun, have you ever had the chance to test it to see how much of a reduction in noise it gives?

Perhaps for use in a third party country e.g. Portugal or Switzerland. Being non British it allows for plausible deniability.

When it comes to SOE and their choice of guns, I would also add in that the non-standard guns and calibers were available and unlikely to be requisitioned or bought by someone else before SOE could lay their hands on them. Explains the eclectic mix of everything from .25 ACP vest pistols to Mk 1 Sten guns I've seen described as "agent weapons"

Really enjoyed watching this and seeing a contemporary of the welrod. Would it be possible to see an interesting artillery piece or cannon sometime?

And no one wants Jonathan disappointed at them, such a British wording and right up there with a strongly worded letter and the "tut" :)

Well, if you’re under cover as a German officer I can see not wanting to carry a 1911 around. Though, not being a P08 in 9mm seems a bit odd for that as a theory, one would think they’d want ready access to ammunition which, at that point, was 9mm.

SOE may have developed these just to see how well they worked. Since there is no slide on the P08 it is easy to to put threads on its barrel. Inventories of P08 were unlikely to be used in the field by regular troops.

It is one of the most iconic and best looking gun ever

Possibly chosen for calibre? Maybe testing different calibres with suppressors to find the most effective? We certainly did like larger calibre handguns in the UK, maybe they were trying a small calibre.

Now I really want to see a vid on the suppressed Webley.

Fascinating analysis. I did want to ask why such weapon existed, and apparently there is no documented evidence to why, however your argument to the Webley being so readily available to me makes the argument for it being used as part of a disguise seem the most plausible.

Interesting

11:30 the delivery of this line was too good. I laughed until one of my ribs started hurting.

Great video. Do you guys have a copy of the armatix ip1? Would like to hear your take on that model and the concept.

Si vis pacem, para bellum. Obviously intended for use in Finland.

That is a very cool weapon indeed🤤😎

I was hoping for Jonathan to do a James Bond style intro with the Luger, really hope to see something like that in the future

Hey Jonathan what days are you on site in the museum? Just went there yesterday. I always go atleast twice a year and I would love to meet you and talk about history 😅

Jonathan, do you know the reference number(s) of the National Archives documents that mention the weapon?​ Thanks db

Fascinating item. The baffles are very much like those in the ubiquitous Parker-Hale MM1 .22" suppressor. Could the choice of the Luger be because with subsonic rounds the toggle might be more likely to not unlock far enough to generate a stoppage but merely rechamber the empty case and then be cycled manually? With four on hand some experimentation is called for. High speed camera required!

It might be more to resistance fighters, namely French I'd imagine. On one hand, there's probably a lot of Lugers floating around which means a lot of proper ammunition for them. So, wanting to give a saboteur a decent bit of kit, a silenced Luger might be a good idea if you think about it. if you shoot a German or French collaborator, you can pilfer the ammunition. Think of it like a fancy Liberator pistol but instead of ditching the gun for something better, you just keep feeding yourself ammunition.

I am sorry did you imply you have access to a hi standard 45acp or are you talking about the 22lr . I have heard a great deal of the 45acp hi standard has it actually 10 shot magazine's or are they mixing up their calibres. Any information would be wonderful did the royal Armoury save any of the 45s ?.

My first time seeing your channel. I’m a HOOSIER American. Your style of commentary and explanation of the Suppressed Luger, was admirable. I’d go for the Suppressed, as it seems cooler and more rare/unique. I’D BUY A USED CAR FROM THAT MAN😂. Just subscribed. Dave (I own a pristine pre WW II Mauser 320 Officers Dress pistol-its simple and unique)

post ww1 commercial 7.65 lugers were sold in america on the commercial market in the 1920s with threaded barrels and suppressors for the shooter market as a novelty shooter , So it's likely they originated there rather than being some soe modification which is unlikely,its probably been associated with the soe due to them examining an already existing commercial available piece.

Are those anschutz 19xx series target rifles on the rack in the background?

The royal armories took Jonathan’s presenting room for a day and never gave it back, now he’s banished to the rifle stores for eternity😔

Use a dowl to put it back together or stack them on top of each other on the table then slide the tube over the top

Speaking of museum pieces - is that a classic Casio Data Bank watch? I owned a couple when they first came out. Yours looks subtly different from what they make now, I think the edges on yours are more rounded.

Would it be anything to do with ammo availability behind enemy lines, perhaps?

It would be an excellent weapon for resistance fighters. If the only available weapons were ones you could procure from an occupying force, you need their ammunition and replacement parts. The suppressor makes it perfect for "Liberating" enemy weapons.

Use a smooth rod to guide the little piece back in place!

I think that the exposed barrel makes it easier to thread vs machining a new barrel or trying to make internal threads work. Next thought after that is why not use the P38, unless they were wedded to 7.65mm for some reason, or couldn't get a suppressed P38 to work reliably? Luger also benefits from having ammo, magazines and parts available in the field which isn't the case for the Allied pistols.

To get the plate back in, stack the baffles with the plate on the top and gently place the suppressor tube over the stack and carefully turn it over to put your knurled ring on.

Another option was that these were a viability study they had some lying around and decided to see if the conversation was possible before moving to converting the limited number of captured 9 mm model for use by assets in Europe

I couldn't read the books but they did have some cool pictures we go to library look at old guns stuff in the books.

Is the toggle lock mechanism more quiet than any of the other semi automatic pistol slides?

I wonder if it was an assassination weapon but more used to make it look like a german had "done" it, I don't know what forensics were like back then but if someone saw someone dressed as a german, firing a german wepon, well you see my point hopefully.

RE ASSEMBLY if you want to get the Plate and Stack back in the suppressors tube, I would guess its easier to stack all the parts up on the table, then slide the tube down over the stack and screw it "down" onto the end cap?

bangin!

The reduced power hand loads doesn't strike me as a draw back, more like a strength for intended purpose. Covert purpose in this case. To be clear, not saying it was done. Not saying it didn't happen. Rather, saying in this form, the insufficient power to cycle the action it has relevant strengths and may have been deliberately intended. When you're talking subsonic, the action can still be quite loud. Loud enough to reveal your position. Action doesn't cycle, don't need to police your brass, you don't need to worry about being detected other than at very close range. A few of these, a couple of professional sneaks, you go could go a long way. A very long way. In theory. No idea if it was or wasn't done. Has more than a few strengths, advantages though.

Now I want a silenced Luger. Thanks a lot. :(

My God. There are a lot of very highly valued lugers out there. I can't even begin to put a price on this one?

I wonder if they contracted with Parker Hale to supply suppressors and the only ones they could get were in 7.65 calibre.

I would be curious if it this silenced Parabellum Luger is, or, has been fired with the dB, penn, etc., being measured. I would be interested in how effectively quiet it is, with the snap of the primer and mechanical actions, and the sort, getting measured.

I have a suspicion that Parker Hale already had stocks of the suppressor pre war intended for sale to sportsmen using rifles in the .30 calibre-ish range. The choice of a 7.65 Lugers being decided by the off the shelf availability of that calibre of suppressor at a time when steel to produce new ones was in short supply. What has often surprised me is that there was never a Martini action converted to fire .455 Webley with a suppressor fitted. It being a fairly common surplus and sporting arm in Britain and the Commonwealth.

I heard in the sixteenth century there were some matchlock muskets with revolver cylinders made in Germany. That sounds like an interesting story, does the Armory have any of those?

In modern suppressors the “bottom” of the cup faces towards the “bottom” of the suppressor which is the end where it attaches to the gun.

What if any ? Were the markings on the Luger? Was it and the Suppressor sanitized?

Nice silencer.

I hope Johnathan reads these- I wanted to know of good weapons for a semi-postapoc that'd be best for a 1-armed fighter to use; guns with good recoil, perhaps decent stopping power, maybe easily slotted into the other "arm" to allow for the user to operate the buttons and releases as they reload.

Is the suppressor hard threaded to the luger?

This is interesting and did not know that SOE created and issued a moderated Luger. Its a bit strange though issuing a Luger to overseas agents operating in Europe. If caught carrying it, it would have meant certain and maybe instant death. In that context a disassembled Welrod would have made more sense and given the agent some opportunity to talk there way out of any awkward situation, check point etc.

have you guys got a Ross rifle I would love it if John showoff and do a deep dive into the ross rifle

please post a link to download ammunition!

What is that watch?

Is 7.65mm quieter then 9mm for Lugers without silencers ?

The Luger seems a rather curious mount for a suppressor since there is no way to mechanically lock the toggle mechanism. Moreover, the choice of cartridge makes little sense for a suppressed weapon to be used for covert ops since the .22LR would be much quieter, and the American High Standard would have been a much better choice. This is a curious weapon, one whose reason for manufacture seems quite obscure if not absurd.

The raised hoods of the ports should be faced forward, this is becouse they are designed to create rotation of the gasses to increase turbulence inside the suppressor.

My favourite anecdote about the British trying to assassinate Hitler is how the eventually came to the conclusion that the war would be over faster if he stayed alive

The Webley Auto, had the barrel separated from the frame, as I recall, which would have made a suppressor a better fit, than on a 1911.

Might could find information about it somewhere, but does anyone know how these "slide-in" baffles would've operated when firing? Do they simply fit in a certain way and remain essentially stationary while allowing the gasses to pass through their pressed-out slots, or are they instead more or less free to rotate and somewhat "spin" like jet fans when firing? If they do spin, would that not be a really cool, possibly first example of turbine supressor technology?

Oh, I could come up with several uses for those behind enemy lines in both dark ops and guerrilla warfare. What some have to remember is that under not even real close examination it'd be fairly easy to determine what weapon the ammunition was fired from. Firing Pin, Extractor and Ejector markings on a case head. A PO-8 Luger military or commercial model is classically "Germanic" and contintal Europe in origin. And it doesn't take a modern CSI team to figure that one out. I'd bet any S.S. or Gestapo officer could puzzle it out. Use an older issue pistol that's been well circulated since before WW-1 and placing blame on exactly whom might be problematic. Where and why used? Any place spreading hatred and discontent among the enemy or their cronies in the interests of The Crown would be my guess. Both during WW-2 and even afterwards in little hot spots of the Cold War. I have a question regarding the High Standard. Are those .22LR Rimfire or are they the .380 caliber ones? I ask because I once had the opportunity to purchase the .380 variant from a local gunshop here in the USA, sans suppressor of course. Even though the latter is perfectly acceptable in the state I reside in.

Don't know if this holds water but I seem to remember somebody talking about suppressed pistols being issued to raiding parties to deal with guard dogs. Sounds more like 30AU than the SOE though.

Dear Jonathan, Where are you getting your 7.65 ammunition? Most of the types I see are noticeably under 1125 fps, which is the speed of sound. Frank.

What if it was actually for covert operations in Switzerland during WW2?

One additional, possible, explanation is the "plausible deniability" route. Less important in WWII where pretty clear lines were already drawn than day in the early days of the Vietnam conflict where covert operations were being carried out illegally. With the wide popularity of the Luger as a commercial, civilian and M&P pistol prior to WW1 and in the inter war period perhaps a weapon for operating in Neutral countries (Portugal for example who adopted the 7.65mm Luger for the Navy in 1908 or Switzerland who adopted it in 1900) where it might be necessary to conceal an Agent's true allegiance or even deny them completely.

You see, thats where the trouble began. That smile. that damned smile.

When I was at school I had a High Standard 22 with silencer. As per the OSS style. Think it was original WW2 surplus. Used to rabbit shoot with it. Great fun.

I am somewhat baffled by this gun. Okay, okay, I will see myself out.

Seems similar as the tried and tested Parker hale 22 rimfire moderator?

I remember seeing a photo with a silenced MP40. Is it real? Do you have one of those?

I'm thinking that toggle mechanism will be pretty loud.

As far as I know, not a single combatant, Allied or other, used 7.65x21mm in WWII in any quantity. It's a Swiss calibre. Which means that it would be nigh on impossible to find ammunition for it on the Continent during the war. Now, if it had been 7.65mm Browning a.k.a .32ACP or 9mm Short a.k.a. .380ACB, that would have been different and readily available, as these were standard police calibres (both subsonic, by the way). Or indeed 9x19, the standard military sidearm calibre. I can't see any point to making this in such an unusual calibre.

I once made a screw-on muzzle thread protector from a Ruger 10/22 front sight and indexed the barrel threads so that the front sight blade aligned properly with the rear sight when installed. Even if the threads were to wear over time, causing sight misalignment, this could be corrected with thin shims. I see no reason why this approach would not have worked on the P08. If the pistol was intended for clandestine use, this would have made more sense as a disguise than a simple front end cap sans sight blade.

My theory is that the Luger was chosen because it was already a presence in Germany and occupied Europe, meaning spare parts could be more easily acquired for it, and agents/resistance fighters with existing Luger skills (handling and maintenance) could easily apply that muscle memory to the suppressed model. Would've been better if they had acquired the 9mm model to convert instead, for both power and ammunition compatibility reasons, but hey, if all you've got is a bunch of commercial 7.65 Lugers, you might do worse.

Any UK proof marks on it or removed from it? A commercial pre-war import would have them.

In regards to why this would have been made, I personally think it may be related to the ammunition. If you are going to have a covert operation on the longer side of things, you might need more ammo. Why be reliant on the very finite number of rounds you brought on your person, when you can just scavenge them?

I'm sure I saw a mark Felton vid recently that said in op foxly the two assassins were to be equipped with a pair of these each to deal with the guards at the guard posts at hitlers mountain retreat...