Was he a victim of inbreeding?

It's really weird, isn't it?! Everywhere else in the Western world, the word 'witch' was enough to make queens quake with fear of being hauled out the castle by a mob, but no one really did anything about it this time. I think it's probably down to the fact that Karin wasn't a threat in any way; she wasn't going to take the political world by storm, she wasn't going to go mad with spending, and she wasn't even going to try and get lucrative posts for her family because they weren't nobility.

It's also possible those same people said, "Well, she's made her bed...." raising their eyebrows at her choice. "It's not who I'd seduce with witchcraft, but there you go!"😂

@@HistorysForgottenPeople She was never publicly accused, but whe know from preserved letters of the time that people theorized that she may have been using a love spell to get the king to marry her. That was mainly due to the fact that everyone was so astonished that he married a commoner rather than a princess or a noblewoman; it was a question of her class, but it was nothing personal really. It appears no one at court actually disliked her as a person, which does say something about her. /Swede.

Johan was a terrible brother and murderer.

@@leeannproctor2966 He did murder his brother, yes.

Absolutely this! She is often called the 'Swedish Cinderella', and I think it's such a good nickname for her, she is definitely the archetypal fairytale princess. ☺ I would say 'except for all the violence and murder', but very old fairytales did have that, so.... 😂

Thank you! I was so nervous, especially with trying to pronounce the Swedish words and names correctly! Karin's story is such an interesting one - as was that of King Erik, too. And it was nice to hear she at least had a happy ending in Finland on her estate, although it was a little sad that she was so distanced from her son by that time.

@@HistorysForgottenPeople Yes, her son was simply regarded as a potential political threat by her brother-in-law the king, who never wanted to see him in Sweden again. She was not able to see him again until he became an adult, and by then, they were strangers to each other. But she did have a close relationship to her daughter for the rest of her life: Sigrid lived by all accounts a good life and are described as a dutiful and loyal daughter, who often visited her mother. Karin also had the company of members of her own birth family living with her from time to time. In summary; while people did put their nose up in the air a bit about Karin (she was no gentry, her father was a soldier and she worked as a waitress and then a madiservant) and found it strange that the king Married her instead of just keeping her as a mistress, she was not personally disliked. What made her such a cinderella story was her very "low class" commoner background, but that was essentially the only bad thing people had to say about her, which is rather fascinating, and does say something about her. She was no political threat to anyone: she had no relative or family that were able to get involved in politics, she was completely dependent upon Eric and her only political importance was the influence he gave her and her ability to give birth to legitimate heirs by him. When he was deposed and she was removed from him, she had zero political value, completely harmless and therefore everyone treated her with kindness.

I'm glad erik didn't have an evil stepmother.

@@leeannproctor2966 That is true, he did not. He had two stepmothers. First, his father remarried Margaret Leijonhufvud. She was by all accounts an intelligent, kind and capable person, a trusted political advisor of his father, and a good mother to both her own children as well as Eric. Secondly, Eric's father remarried Catherine Stenbock. She was younger than Eric and he may never have actually viewed her as a mother figure, but by all accounts he was fond of her and liked her as a person; since he was not married for the first seven years of his reign, he let her play the role of first lady of the court, referred to her as "My Dear Lady Stepmother" and apparently trusted her on some critical moments of his reign. By all accounts queen Catherine was a reserved, careful and tactical person who manouvered herself through court life quite successfully.

Will Erik's mother and stepmothers be part of the series?

It really was sad! They obviously saw him as a huge threat to the throne. Even after that point, he was lined up to marry the daughter of the Tsar of Russia, but it was broken off as he went a bit mental being able to finally live in luxury. He did end up with a small amount of land somewhere, but not what you'd expect as son of a king!

I agree that it's a shame there aren't more portraits of her, but as you say, it's so sweet that the likeness we do have of her was drawn by Erik. Especially as we can't really know what their relationship was like, but he does seem to have genuinely cared about Karin and loved her, whatever that looked like to him. And the fact his family liked her also says a lot, I think! 😊 And you're right about Erik and his mental illness, although to play Devil's Advocate, I think it feels a lot like his paranoia was worked up by those who benefited from it (like Persson), and perhaps his violent tendencies were encouraged. Not to minimise his violent actions, but I think they certainly wouldn't have been as bad had some people not urged him on, perhaps. And yes, the Estonia/Finland' thing is so interesting! Even more interesting is that Estonia voluntarily put itself under the protective rule of Sweden from fears of being attacked or invaded by Baltic German states. I think it stayed like that until the early 18th century, if I remember correctly.

Such a shame the media isn't interested in the Scandinavian monarchies.

@@user-fg9xz4bz3b I swear the media are only interested in Henry VIII's 6 wives, & it drives me nuts. I'm bored to tears with them, & I love it when we get to hear about someone totally new! I don't know much about the Scandinavian monarchies- I have a bio of the fabulous Christina of Sweden, & that's about it- & it'd be awesome to learn more about them.

I would love a tv series of mad king erik.

I didn't know that! Thanks, I love knowing little facts like that. 😊

You're welcome, I'm glad you're enjoying them! 😊 And your series sounds really interesting, it's great when real life inspires art.

Didn't Karin have the same effect as Anastasia did for ivan the terrible.

Cinderella only in the sense of a rise from being a commoner to being royalty, certainly not the romance part of it! 😂 And you're absolutely right in that it's very icky that Karin was still a young girl when Erik saw her. At the time, girls could canonically get married when they were 12, but it's still uncomfortable for us, even if few would have cared at the time. At the very least, there would have been an enormous power imbalance between them. The sources that talk about Erik first seeing her in the square come much later (in the 18th century, I think) and seem to have been romantic fiction, so I didn't include it, but you're right in that it's another part of the story that built up around Karin and Erik.

Whatever her age was she made like so many others the best option opened up to her. Thank God erik wasn't like henry viii.

You're right, there's definitely some parallels between her life and Elizabeth Woodville's, but I suppose ultimately Elizabeth had the confidence of nobility/royalty that Karin never had time to develop. ☹

At least her children were spared and well-cared.

You're absolutely right, so few of them seem to have an actual happy ending in the way we would like. And as you say, we don't even really know what sort of relationship it was. As Karin was so dependant on him, I would even consider it might have been rather an unhealthy relationship, sadly!

I agree the real life cinderellas had more hell than bliss.

Cinderellas with no family really got railroaded in my opinion.

Thank you, I'm glad you enjoyed it! 😊 There's definitely a lot more Swedish history I'd love to cover, especially around this period/family.

Look up Queen Christina of Sweden! Literally the only Swedish history I know, but an amazing story- she was Queen Regnant a bit later, & with no spoilers, she was an extremely strong-willed & unusual character with an extremely dramatic life, & she caused quite a bit of scandal in Europe.

TY Beth. I will absolutely check her out.

As someone with Swedish ancestry it's interesting to heard about that part of the world. Hope you plan on doing more Swedish individuals.

@@HistorysForgottenPeople As a Swede, I can tip about princess Cecilia Vasa and queens Catherine Jagiellon, Louisa Ulrika, queen Sophia Magdalena and queen Hedvig Elisabeth Charlotte!

I think there was one (quite recently-ish?), but it was only shown in Sweden, sadly!

Here here!

I hope you enjoyed it! 😊

Are their any surviving portraits of Karin so I can see for myself how beautiful she was.

@@leeannproctor2966 Unfortunately, there are none left that was made during her life time.

I'm doing okay, just chasing my own tail doing all the things that still need doing for Christmas! Mallard is chilled out as always. I'm glad to hear you and Benjamin are doing well. 😊

Do we know now what king erik suffered from.

And both pale in comparison to Russia.

Someone with more in-depth knowledge of Erik hopefully will come along, but as far as I'm aware, it seems to just be one of those genetic things that occurs in some people and not others. His siblings don't seem to have shared his madness, but I do think some of Erik's paranoia was definitely stoked by those who found it useful (like Persson).

Kah-rin, not Corin. What awful narration!

Swedish monarchy had a juicy past just like Britain and France.

It's not often that someone pops up in history who is both famous (or infamous!) and is also a warm, kind-hearted person who doesn't ruffle many feathers, but Karin definitely seems to have been one of those people! I agree that I think a lot of people wrote off her intelligence as well, when you look at how well she ran her estates in later life, and her understanding of court life which she picked up quickly. I just Karin was also good at playing up her 'innocent' side when needed, haha.

Inbreeding was a great tragedy no doubt about it.

​@@HistorysForgottenPeoplewill you being doing any more Swedish royals any time soon?

No, he definitely had mental health problems - it sounds a lot like it was played on by some of those around him though, and that probably made it a lot more extreme than it should have been.

Catherine Stenbock I think I would love to cover at some point, definitely! 😊

No, those are AI images - I do try to make them more 'normal', but as Midjourney uses images from the internet, and the majority of those images are edited and touched up in some way, it's difficult to make it do more ordinary people. But I do keep trying! 🤣

Well you've done an amazing job doll!!!

Yes, it's nice to find one where there was no wife - just a shame about the bloodthirsty madness! (There's always a catch... 😂) It is a bit of a sad story, but I suppose one way of looking at it is that she did better in life than she might otherwise have done. 😊

@@HistorysForgottenPeople yeah there’s either a wife or ripe mental illness🙄🙄 Gosh darn it one can have nothing 😞😞

Okay, this is a big question! And I'm assuming, as much as I like her, that Jane Grey can't be included in this lol. Empress Matilda is my favourite - yes, she was never crowned, but I still count her as a queen regnant. Especially as twice her father's courtiers swore allegiance to her. Despite how many people think I hate her from the one video I've done on her, Elizabeth II would be next! I think she was a formidable person, and she did a good job in an extraordinarily difficult position. While she was cruel at times, I think a lot of it comes down to making herself very lonely for various reasons. Queen Anne next - she endured a hell of a lot, but she never lost sight of herself and her opinions on things. She was also the first monarch who really recognised that to remain a successful monarch, she had to acquiese to Parliament and involve herself in it. Mary I after that. She did some terrible things once she became monarch, but looking at the whole of her life it would seem Mary did a lot of good as well, and she tried to care about people. I think her upbringing and events that happened to her twisted a lot about her, and I have sympathy for that. I think Elizabeth II is next. I don't really want modern monarchy, but I do think she was ultimately a nice person who tried to connect with other people. Having said that, the very act of being modern means I've never understood how someone can be a monarch and spend vast amounts of money while their people struggle. I'm not sure anyone believes kings and queens are chosen by some higher power the way they once did. Queen Victoria is after her. She was fairly capable as a queen, and the British empire grew during her reign, but she was not a nice person. She was alternately an overbearing mother or a cold one, and she was apparently rude and nasty later on to many people. Mary II is last, but in all honesty, she and Victoria are joint last! I think she wasn't a good monarch because she rarely voiced her own opinions, instead bending to what her husband wanted, and she actively gave up her crown to someone who clearly would rather have taken it altogether instead of sharing. She also turned her back on her father and sister, mostly because of a dogged idea that she had to acquiese to her husband in all matters.

⁠@@HistorysForgottenPeopleoooh boy I love your answers, always so detailed! Solid choices! Tbh, I’m still not sure of my own order, so I’ll just give my thoughts on them by order of reign hehe (but my least favourite was Mary II, for sure) Empress Matilda’s reign is one that puts me on the fence- a coronation was, at the time, necessary, and Stephen was recognised as King, in spite of deadass fighting to sign the oath first💀. In any case, if one chooses to count her reign, it was remarkably small and tumultuous, so I can’t say much about it. As a person, though, a formidable woman, huge admiration for her, despite all. Mary I- you know what, I’m playing devil’s advocate for this one, because her faults are known to all (and exaggerated, too). She lived a miserable life, and (and this is the part when I get virtually stoned to death) her religious policies weren’t that different from those of Elizabeth’s early reign. Elizabeth wasn’t necessarily tolerant, she employed a don’t ask don’t tell policy, while most of the Marian Martyrs were very vocal in their criticism of Catholicism. Also, (and I have yet to check this, so sorry if I’m wrong) I think Thomas Cranmer repented only after the 80 day period he had to do so. Does this make it all good? No, of course not, I’m just saying ”Gloriana” and ”Bloody Mary” were not that different in regards to religious policy as many like to say. They were different in diplomatic success, true (may Philip II be damned), but I think she genuinely wanted to be a good Queen, as evidenced by her weekly hearings of people’s complaints. Elizabeth I- oof, so many mixed feelings: yes, she defeated the Spanish Armada, but kind of brought it upon herself with her founding of “privateers” amongst other things. Her religious policy was what I described above, and in later years it became nasty indeed. But there must be a reason even the POPE recognised her potential and said that “were she only a Catholic, she would’ve been our greatest friend” (the Pope’s statement about her gives me chills ngl). Personality wise, I think she never had a chance- lass was the daughter of Anne Boleyn and Henry VIII💀- but let’s not include that. Mary II- a beige Queen. Not even the fashions in her court were good😭. For real though, she betrayed her father and was happy to push her sister aside for that arse of a spouse. Had she ruled alone, I don’t think she would’ve been a good Queen at all, she seemed more interested in other matters. My least favourite by far. Anne- also betrayed her father (and she lived in England, so there’s no excuse that she really believed Mary of Modena wasn’t with child) and spread misinformation regarding that whole affair. She seemed to be driven by her personal interests to a certain degree, and I don’t like her much as a person. Her childbearing record is absolutely devastating, though, no one should ever had to endure such a thing. Victoria- she was a figurehead, but, I think, a good one. The people generally liked her, and the British Empire reached its zenith (not good from a moral point of view, though). As a person, she was very selfish, though I’m sure she loved her children, but, having had a cold mother herself, wasn’t good at showing them affection, and often disregarded their feelings and preferences in favour of her selfish needs. Elizabeth II- again, a figurehead. A nice lass, maybe. The face of the Monarchy, for sure, and, I think, what held it together. That being said, I agree with what you said in regards to her living in luxury while her people starve (though, sadly, they all do that). Gosh, this one took a while haha :)

@@HistorysForgottenPeople Fascinating answer, thanks!

@@lfgifu296 Fascinating list, thanks!

@@beth7935 thank you! Feel welcome to share your own thoughts :)

Thank you so much - I'm always nervous it will sound like another word altogether! 😂

Thank you, that's very kind! 😊

Aww, thank you so much! I'm not that lady, but I would love to narrate actual-on-TV documentaries one day! ☺

Thank you, I'll fix it and put a note in my description!

There's definitely a lot of other interesting parts of Swedish history I would love to do a video on! (Catherine Stenbock is certainly on my list). Thanks for the suggestions, I'll add them too. 😊

Yes, she is generally thought of as being a commoner, but because there are uncertainties over her early life, some historians believe she 'may' have been lower gentry, which is how I worded it.

In Sweden We learn that she was a tavernwench and far from gentry. I think that is wishfull thinking thst she was gentry. And prisonguard was low looked on work. Daughter to a prisonguard was low very low

Oh, he definitely had a lot of ideas about things that we would simply recognise as 'modern' now, absolutely! The 'crazy' part came more from the fact he seemed to not his own mind sometimes, which could be extreme anxiety or worse, and the punishments he enacted on people (such as stabbing people in prison cells). But I do think it was made worse by those around him who benefited from it!

They sound a lot alike, don't they? 😂

@@sharonharris9782 they sure do..are they the same person?

​@@ginaandseason2774I have no idea, but the minute I read your comment, I was like yes they really do. I somehow doubt it though.

I'm not (I've never heard of ebird), but I'm definitely going to go check them out now! 😂 My name's Miranda, if you check out my Princes in the Tower video you can 'see' me as I actually appeared in that one, haha.

​@@HistorysForgottenPeopleE bird does reality television recaps, and you do sound suspiciously like her. 😂 Maybe she's a long lost relative??? 😅

Do you feel better now that's out of your system? ☺

To be fair, Karin had the excuse of also being Swedish! 😂

@@HistorysForgottenPeople she was a true Karin (Karen)..🤣😂 thank you! I love your channel

AI _does_ have a default setting that "beautiful woman = blonde with blue eyes", but in this case I have no complaints cos there's an actual contemporary description of Karin as blonde with blue eyes. Which is notable- it seems like Mediaeval records are _really_ good at describing people without any mention of their colouring, & it drives me nuts.

There are literally no portraits of her except for a very rough pencil sketch, so unfortunately (unless you like seeing the same sketch over and over) there are very few ways to create images of her without using AI. (Also fascinated to know how you know exactly what she looked like for the same reason). I don't use any celebrities for the base model, I use existing images of the person from history - what a weird assumption! AI is still in its early days, so yes, it does often create them with long hair down, etc. When I have a budget the same as the BBC, then I'm sure I'll hire historically accurate models in exact clothing. Until then, I do spend painstaking hours attempting to get them as close as possible, but obviously it isn't 100%. Please feel free to enjoy another of the free history channels on KZfaq if you're not enjoying this one.

@@HistorysForgottenPeople didn’t say I knew what she looked like… I said “not what she looked like” as in the ai creation is not her. Lots of Ai does use celebrities in many programs, not saying particular artists, but ai. My comment was more so directed at the various similar channels that do similar stuff that have flooded history KZfaq.

Sadly that's why I rarely watch this channel. I just cannot take it seriously with the totally historicaly inaccurate images. No one knows what they looked like but we do know how hair, makeup and clothing was done during these periods...