These are my deeper² (Finalized) thoughts on the topic for those interested. Essay begin: This video was mainly me enjoying myself and waffling, and I do hope everyone can appreciate it for that, however under the context of the cinematic, all signs are pointing to this being the race for me. As I said in the video, a lot of people are saying this is the Gardener, and as much as I have advocated HARD for this character, I want to tell you again why I don't think it's her. It really comes down to how the narrative of this expansion is going to be structured. Btw if I looked too deep into this and it's literally going to be the Gardener then I'll laugh so hard lol. Everyone knows about the Veiled statues, even people who know nothing about the lore. Bungie even put two of them in the new PvP map so that the PvP players were aware of them. The cinematic even has multiple statues around the structure Zavala is entering so that there is NO CHANCE that when you see the veiled figures that you know nothing. With that being said, how can this play out? To begin I need to make one point painfully clear: The veiled figures look that way to make you connect them to the statues Bungie's been spamming, so that when you see them, you think of the statues. If the Gardener is going to be revealed, she's gotta be at the Monolith, it's the only thing that makes sense to me anyways. That would put the reveal at the end of the story. This cinematic with Zavala seems early-mid expansion to me. Just my opinion of course. Next we have the undeniable fact. The figures in this cutscene, even good ol' Blinky, are not the Gardener or the Winnower in the flesh. Therefore if these figures are using the image of the Gardener, but aren't her, then the characters won't just be deceived, but the players as well. I know that on paper this sounds good, but Bungie is already having to try and resolve complex narrative beats in this expansion, in a way that is accessible to new players. If I was them, I'd want to introduce an extremely vague/hidden character as cleanly as possible, but again this is purely my opinion based off of the information currently available. Long story short, if this is the Gardener or Winnower, you're going to have this order of events: 1. Player becomes acquainted with the visual of the statues. 2. Player sees the veiled figures in the Zavala cinematic and associate them with the statues. 3. Player will learn that the veiled figures were not what the statues represented, but another character who looks the same but who acts differently. Now for some of you that might be fine, but even in my reaction to the launch trailer, I had a bad feeling about it. I didn't know enough to say, but I couldn't say it was the Gardener. Because we have such little info, I can only explain so much, but just know that as someone who has stated that the statues were of the Gardener since pre BL, my gut is telling me these guys aren't her, and that the meaning of the statues were possible changed. That isn't me stating that the story changed to suit my opinion either, no ego involved at all. Before this cutscene all signs genuinely did point to the statues being of the Gardener. The statue in the DSC cutscene straight up has the Traveler's radial around it (true story). As for the Winnower, who knows man. I always advocated AGAINST that, but I guess I'd be fine with it. Unlike the Gardener I have no idea how the Winnower would fit narratively in this expansion, if he can at all, so I have no argument for that at all, and won't act like I do. So if it isn't the Gardener or the Winnower, who are they? They cannot be a simple gimmick of the vision, as again these statues have been built up since 2019 (2017 for the Pyramid City art) so it is a story that needs a resolution. With everything that I know about the Pyramid Race WQ and beyond, it's very obvious to me that Bungie's been subtly foreshadowing the race, with two plot points that have been built up: 1.The true origins of the Pyramid Race. 2.The nature of their bodies (the mummies) Not only do I see the veiled figures as the race being the only option left if the Gardener is gone (to me) but I can see this making a lot of sense as well. This video is ultimately me saying that in the most basic ways possible. I know I mentioned watching my other videos a lot, and it wasn't to shamelessly plug my content. If Bungie is going down the race route, then they are resolving a story that most people don't know about, and my video draws on that story. It just so happens that most of my time in Destiny's lore has been spent trying to figure that story out. Anyways, I just wanted to add my extra thoughts and provide as much info as I could for you. Feel free to binge the Pyramid stuff if you want, and if you want my picks, here you go: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/d6ybfd2gtNLVp2Q.html - Confirming the Pyramid Race existed through their history and culture. kzfaq.info/get/bejne/a596lq1_rb69nn0.html - The Pyramid Relic with Latin letters on it. kzfaq.info/get/bejne/ismKaaSexsqzh5s.html - The Pyramid concept art that Bungie deleted. I'm the only one who currently has it beyond where I've posted it. kzfaq.info/get/bejne/aqpoarSkqr6wdGg.html - VERY important video on the link between the Pyramids and Ancient Humanity. kzfaq.info/get/bejne/a7Cmhapovq7Rk2g.html - Why the Pyramid Race are alive if they don't have bodies. kzfaq.info/get/bejne/Y7xzgq-c1rLMkZc.html - The Pyramid Race's god statue (may be linked to the Gardener) kzfaq.info/get/bejne/icWVaNGFyqmom5s.html - The Veil Theory Part 1| Explaining the Veil/Deep and potential Winnower tie in) kzfaq.info/get/bejne/f7JgoLSXsNPGnoE.html - The Veil Theory Part 2 | Explaining how the Veil can be used for true immortality, how it exposes the Pyramid Race's weakness/backup plan. kzfaq.info/get/bejne/ruCbmduqsa2thWw.html - How the Pyramid Race can return (might end up being relevant who knows. Once again, I'm not trying to milk anything. I genuinely care about spreading info and helping people learn more about the game they love, and IF I'm right in this video's opinion, then I happen to be able to point to my archives :). That's it from me, I hope you all have a wonderful weekend, and I will see you on Tuesday!

Savathun did say it’s covered by darkness wearing it like a cloak giving it a wicked shape

Who would have known that flying pyramids are flying tombs, a shocker :D (I love occam's razor being used in funny way)

Brass Gardeners Venextron. You gotta take another look at it. I think its one of the most important lore pages people arent focusing on when it comes to the Winnower and the Vex. The majestic terminology is used by the vex to describe an entity(Majestic thorn, which i consider to be representetive of us.) that removes one of the two anamolies they react to. Which seems to be the black heart itself and the other anamoly is the Witness who planted the seed much as osiris did for the tree of silver wings with the difference being that the witness seems unable to plant the seed without corruption forming. The Vex then determine that the best action to counter any of this is to stop 'gardening' and instead 'Winnow'. That page reads really spooky and im still hoping someone breaks it down properly. Like why in the world would the Sol Divisive react that way if they were subservient to the witness? Why are we called a majestic thorn? Its wierd. Also what i will say about the statues is this. When the veiled figure speaks into zavala's ear theres almost like a staticky type sound that blares and then transitions into the witness's voice as if hes blocking out what the chrachter is saying. So thats another possibility thay she is potentially trying to keep Zavala away from the witness and the bodies falling is symbolic of the witness confirming its hold over Zavala.

I'm amazed by how close and yet so far this guess was. They ended up being the precursor race, but instead of being the Witness, they are the dissenters

I feel like they retconned the veil and veil statues, given their original design of a female with nice perky ones.

So the veiled statues have always been a memorial of some kind? You make it seem like the pyramids are essentially being controlled by these figures! Good stuff

I was under the impression that the order of events in the trailer were out of order and that “Blinky” was using the shard of glass to reflect the capital L Light into Zavala’s eyes to break him out of the nightmare sequence.

I noticed your growth in narration and I am excited to see your channel consecrated into the "Big Leagues" in the days to come. Great coverage

FIRST BOYYYYY, saw your winnower and gardener video and i was HOOKED

It always looked to me that the veiled figure had a piece of the Traveler in their hand because in the scene you see Zavala before the broken Traveler and the tip of a pyramid in the background. The figure reflected light towards Zavala who is in the dark. This could be the Gardener trying to either get Zavalas attention or trying to distract him from the darkness. I think the veiled figures could be both, the Gardener and the people from the race that formed the Witness. We saw in the trailer that Zavala was before the pyramids and the Treaveler started to fly to the sky and leave. This could be the moment when the Traveler left the race of the Witness because they tried to combine it with the Veil and darkness maybe. Because the Veil who is similar shaped like a Silver Wing Tree had a open spot that could fit the Traveler in. The Traveler didn't want that and left the eason for that could be either because the Gardener feared the outcome or other reasons. Maybe the reason why the Gardener has the veil was because the first race tried to combine it with the Veil which took the connection away from her to her creation. Maybe the people in the veil were originally guardians who possesed the light and were used to connect to the Veil aswell in order to become arbiter of light and darkness but they failed and instead shielded their connections to the light and formed the Witness. It could be that these figures have this veil because they got connected to the actual Veil. I don't remember what happened to the people in the containment logs who connected to the Veil anymore, maybe this gives a bigger picture.

The Gardener and Winnower is the Traveler and Veil respectively. One in the same, a third entity existed in a parallel gated timeline known as the deep. There are other gated timelines. Maybe, I'm wrong...

In my opinion, I think the significance of the veiled figure behind Zavala that says "SUFFERING" shouldn't be understated. The Witness has never sounded like this, even when its voice undulates and shifts. Personally, I think this is something else, looming behind the events of TFS. I think this is the first time we have physically heard the Winnower speak. I don't know why, but it just doesn't seem like its coming from the Witness...

I haven't watched yet, but I think the Veiled Statues represent the Gardener and what the Witness wanted to do, silencing it with the (a) Veil.

Oh shit I think I just figured it out, in the beginning of the trailer there’s a shot of the witness where it looks like he’s surrounded by radiolaria fluid and we definitely know from bungie that the vex are going to be around after the final shape. I think the witness plans to rebirth his race using the vex as hosts after the final shape is achieved

The gardener is the manifestation of syntropy while the winnower being entropy

Ngl, I love his videos but recently I’ve been looking more forward to your videos than even Byf’s. My brother and I play whenever I’m off work, and we’ll just spin theories and talk about the lore and these kinda give me that same feeling. So happy you got that boost it’s well deserved

I think it’s reasonable to think that the statues are actually of the race, the Gardener, and Winnower all at once. If the Light and Dark are mirrors of one another, it’s reasonable to assume the Gardener and the Winnower likely have mirror or at least complementary forms. The precursors worshipped the Traveler/Gardener, but also sought a Winnower - and they likely found it in the Veil. They then sacrifice themselves in a a mass death ritual akin to mummification to create their own Winnower. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to think the iconography of the veiled woman isn’t shared by all three at this point, at least until we know more.

It’s not just broken glass. It’s a mirror because they do not have the light so they needed to use the light so they used a mirror and got Zavala to trust them.

... are the people of Neomuna an allegory for what the precursors did to become the witness? They both used the veil to leave their individual bodies, after all. One group became the witness, the other populated the cloud ark. You could also maaaybe tie that to what Clovis did with the Exos... a lot of transhumanism when it comes to the darkness...

To expand on the thought of the veiled statue representing the whole race of the witness, i believe that in the scene in the Trailer, where the Witness asks Zavala "join us", the Witness doesnt want him to become a disciple, he wants zavala to join the Witness itself, so the Witness gains his powers. Looking at the scene we can see the statues turn to dust once the Witness asks the question, implying the moment all of them sacrificed themselves to become the Witness

So the veiled figures seem to represent the Penitent, which are the many that the witness is made up of.

The veiled statues intrigue me so much I really am hoping for some wicked answers come Tuesday.

I'm still convinced that since the pyramid ships were essentially structures pulled from the precursor society that the statues are remnants of the race's reverence of the gardener, and a current symbol of the Witness's goal, putting a Veil over the gardener. I still very much jive with your theory, but I do have some of my own input from the trailer. Now obviously since we've only been on the outside of the portal til now, we don't know how fully inert the Traveler is within its own Pale Heart, but perhaps the Traveler or a manifestation of its Gardener form had intercepted the vision the Witness is representing here. Maybe its just me but I feel like we are discounting the fact that we are still inside the traveler which is the closest we'll be to it's/the gardener's center of power, even if the Witness is commandeering it.

i feel like the "dont do this" will probably end up being zavala doing something to sacrifice himself

I will say I think all the veiled figures collapsing around Zavala are the Pyramid race, like the idea of a bunch of identical figures all dropping dead at once fits the backstory of what happened to create the Witness. I will also say however I could see them double dipping with the visual motif and just differentiate the gardener from the pyramid race through the color of the veils and just making sure she’s always appearing alone in stark black, and I could see the pyramid race wrapping themselves in white veils before enacting the ritual that created the Witness as kind of a nice symbolic overlap and that’s what caused the gardener to change the color of her veil.

so now that final shape came out u gonna make the video on what u know about the darknesses original role?

I'm just thinking of this thematically. With the Witness being the embodiment of uniformity (an entire race as one being), one way to defeat them would be to restore their individuality.

Yea I mean as soon as I saw that scene I thought it was pretty clearly implying that the figures are the pyramid race. I’m eager to see how much they elaborate on exactly how and why they specifically chose to present themselves as the witness, although I think your theory on it purely being a paracausal tank is most likely. I know you think they’re bodies are contained in the jars which does make sense, but honestly I can’t help but entertain the idea that all of they’re corpses were physically combined and shaped into the witness because we know the witness is an absolutely massive being. But yea the jar theory is probably more likely. Great video btw

Zavala will be tempted with a promise of reuniting with his family

I always saw the veiled figures as memorials to the witnesses race only because in the Asha cinematic a veiled statue is sliced up and is meant to represent that race.

they are absolutely the precursor species, remember the Witness does not control the darkness but wears it like a cloak, the cloak that binds and constrains the precursors into a compact form, all the veiled entities and statues are literally cloaked in darkness.

Ight. So, as someone who is relatively late to the party and has definite gaps in their knowledge, can someone catch me up on where the idea that the veiled figure(s) might be the Gardener comes from? My understanding was that the veiled statues are explicitly dark-aligned, be it with the Witness/precursors or the Winnower. Seems like portraying the Gardener so similarly, at least from a visual standpoint, may not be the best play on Bungie's part (unless I'm missing something, which I almost certainly am).

First time on your channel but I love it

Maybe the Witness race mummify themselves like the Pharaohs of Egypt. The Pharaoh wanted to live in the afterlife with all its "possessions" (the Witness collect specimens and artefacts too) and maybe the precursors would dissassemble from the witness to live in the calcified existence, with all their possesions like the afterlife.

The ancient Egyptians built massive stone pyramids, once decorated in gold, to serve as grand, luxurious tombs for their mummified royalty, who they believed to be gods among men. Many of these pyramids still stand thousands of years later. The Trials of Osiris gear makes it pretty clear how much the Destiny developers are keeping ancient Egypt in mind. Food for thought.

When I heard the line about "splayed footprints" from the lore. I pictured birds not humans. Maybe even dragons? Anyway I think something like that would be much more interesting than humanoids. Since it also mentions smiling though; I'm probably wrong.

I mean, it logically makes sense that the race that sought out the veil to add structure to the traveler in the beginning would name themselves the veiled, or veiled. Also, the figure from the cinematic with zavala in my opinion looks like their left hand is stretched out open.

Hey, recently I’ve been loving your videos so so much. Just an editing note, imo having the bright solar effect on the edges of the screen is a bit distracting/uncomfortable while trying to focus on the main footage used, still tho love your stuff.

thats what the race are, mommies.

Maybe the statues are meant to represent their "religion" of coming together to form the Witness, with the *Veil*. Also, the statue was split in the Witness origins cutscene and that usually happens to species they like to catalog. I think this kinda implies the statue isn't from a "god" but from a "species". But why do that with the statue and not their own kind? Because they're merged into the Witness. I don't think it's the Gardener, I don't think it fits. Edit: I rewatched the cutscene. The veiled statue also has a "screaming soul" silhouette that is similar to those used in the same cutscene to represent the Witness race joining each other. Another *small* point: the statue has two arms. So it either represents the Witness race (which also has two arms) or it represents a god that appeared in their form. Thing is, AFAIK, neither the Gardener or the Traveler ever appeared to someone as a person of their species, but rather through cryptic dreams and the light bird in D2 vanilla.

I thought this was about the statues D: It's so hard to avoid spoilers about the Final Shape, especially when Bungie uses them to build hype :(

The veiled figure is the witnesses species

the race gives off similarities to gurren laggan the anti spiral race you should look into that it's pretty cool how similar they are

Welp final shape datamines just confirmed the witness wrote unveiling, it’s over for you buddy

This doesn't make any sense to me why would the witness have statues of the gardener in their ship ? The witness wouldn't worship the gardener so idk how you came to this conclusion

Isn’t the gardener the traveler???

I realize I've only watched the campaign, raid and final mission but I swear I have more questions on what's going on than I should. I feel Bungie higher ups pulled the rug out from under us again. Where are the Gardner and Winnower? What was the Witness torturing in the pale heart if it wasn't actually the Gardner ? Why are we asked to protect a silent god that refuses to listen to us? Kind of in support of the final shape just happening with what Bungie did to this story... The game is great and tons of fun, but it would be worlds better if the higher ups would get their heads out of their asses and stop making these narrative choices that don't make much sense.

Oof