My sim good your sim bad

Remember where we came from, top view, dots that supposed to be cars, weird keyboard controls and just enjoy what we have today, amazing sims/ arcade, all racing games to make us enjoy something we probably never will do in real life.

The more I want the perfect racing simulator and the more I understand simulation, the more I just want to go back to a fun quick and simple racing game that feels good to drive on my expensive rig.😊 Tribalism feels like miss guided passion for sim racing so thank you the maturity this vid brings to the community

An interesting and also needed point of view, thank you, Nils... and that's the reason I can't stay with one single simulation. Each sim has it's own strenghts and weaknesses and in the end of the day, it depends on how much you enjoy the experience. I find it very interesting to hear how different the approach towards that one aspect of replicating a tyre is between different sims - a small yet very important piece, also iRL. And this very likely will also be the case for all other aspects. So I think we will have to wait for the day some guy(s) will come around and say "we have been able to develope a physics engine running on normal computers, that can replicate physics itself as close as possible", because currently we have a mixture of different engines focussing on different aspects, getting some stuff kind of right, some stuff on the other hand totally wrong. For example my guess is ACC is kind of right in terms of tyre grip and it's decay over the course of a race (but I think the latter was quite off at the beginning of V1.9 cycle...), whereas ACC feels quite wrong in certain situations like collisions and the suspensions reacting to anything not being tarmac. iRacing on the other hand feels more right with handling suspensions, the cars feel relatable and like having true weight to them, you can feel weight transfer very well, also the case with rFactor 2 and LMU. But in terms of tyres iRacing feels wobbly and kind of "ahhhh don't worry about pressures and temps", Automobilista 2 also doesn't really feel different when tyres are not really in their window according to data shown in the sim... you just throw the care into the corners and if it starts do slide you go into Dominic Torretto Mode, most of the time cars are easy to balance/catch back. But each one of them is fun, if you are able to adapt and develop a driving style. Until this persists I think normal hobby drivers like me who aren't competing in any kind of competitive leagues or Esports should embrace the variety of sims as much as possible and then maybe pick and choose what feels best for one self... and don't give a damn about people who try to preach their opinion and that THIS ONE sim is the best and all others are shit... I for one got (back) into hardcore sim racing because of ACC... that was during V1.7, so pretty late actually. V1.8 felt also right and then came 1.9... and I started to dislike ACC. But the faulty component in that equasion was ME, I was the one not being able to adapt to the overhauled physics. I still am not, frankly, but Kunos made tweaks over time and thus ACC is more enjoyable to me again. At least in a casual way, I still don't manage to drive on the same limit I was able to before V1.9. But who other than me cares, right? Just move on if you don't like a sim, try another one... there are way more simulations on a very sophisticated level, each with some different focal points... some focus on tyres, some on the suspensions, some are trying to give an overall enjoyable experience being not particularly well in one or two aspects, but overall relatable and feeling somewhat right. Just pick and choose or do them all. But don't preach, enjoy the ride 😁 TLDR: I agree with Nils and thanks for the insight into sim developement.

"No, you are wrong, Leonidas, I mean, Nils, you are wrooooong! iRacing is the only game that gets it right..." -Every iRacing fan pretty much dizzying everybodies nuts over which sim is "mOA rEaL"....

I've always liked how sims simulate all the different elements that exist in a race car and racing. It's depth and makes them so interesting when you put the car in different scenarios, not really if they're exactly like the real thing (which they can't be). If *racing* sims do a good job, you have to think like a racing driver or team and adapt. If we think all the way back to Geoff Crammond sims, they had plenty going on beyond the driving model itself. Cars breaking down dramatically in many different ways, setups, pit strategy, weather. This endless fixation with driving feel and whose is the most realistic - although of course any driving game has to gel with you from a pure driving enjoyment point of view - is somewhat counter productive I think. I'm glad we have very advanced physics these days, but there is a lot of value in simulating the event itself and what you need to do in order to win, and driving is just the first requirement. It's what F1 games do well despite their meme status among hardcore sim racers due to their physics model. You can jump in and experience a whole F1 season against AI in quite an accurate manner at the end of the day. People absolutely love to throw around the words simcade and even arcade to bash these type of racing titles, but if you compare them to an actual arcade racing game they couldn't be farther from it.

How about we stop sim RACERS' tribalism? Everyone in an LFM Pro race is a very good sim driver, very close in racing ability. They are so close that it is very difficult to determine which factors exactly and by how much determined a specific race winner. Maybe the person who came 2nd on a particular day had 30ml of spoilt milk in the morning. Maybe they have slept 20 minutes less than usual. This is before we even start talking about car BOP. So, as you can see, it is pointless to keep asking the question which sim driver is the best, because all pro drivers are almost equally good, anyway. They can finally pack their bags and live in peace. No more stress, no more racing incidents, no more heated debate about BOP. Stop tribalism, stop arguments. Embrace the Stop

iconic Nils thumbnail are back

Another great video Nils, really well put together. One other benefit of having different sims and changing from one to another is driver adaptability. It's definitely a skill to learn the physics/techniques needed for one sim versus another.

The best sim is the one that gives you the most enjoyment.

Love the perspective, Nils. I've had this conversation with our community regarding the feeling of different Sims & my point has always been, there is no 100% correct way to model it after real life. Once we accept that, they become more enjoyable. I also advocate driving a few different titles to gain skills that will translate into your final sim of choice. Each sim offers different opportunities to learn & these things are a strength. Sim shaming should be the least of your concerns, it's about community & growing in your skillset.

I would like to give it more than one thumbs up. Another great video from you. Please keep up the good work.

Completely agree. The aim is to make the most accurate simulation from imperfect data, sourced from infinite variability with compromised resources and human factors! Then even with the best simulation software you have to MIMIC through graphics, audio and FFB the sensation of driving fast on a track against competitors. Amazing it feels as authentic as it does, our brains make good liars 🙂👍

Great video. I play a wide variety of sims, as they all give me something different. None of them do it all perfectly. IRacing for ovals, AMS2 for pure fun and immersion, LMU is getting some time atm, but I also go back to AC every now and then. If I stuck to just one of them I’d better at it, but I do this for fun above all things.

Man i just like the way you explain things

I can't wait for the quantum complexity physics update.

Accuracy of the sim is irrelevant, if it isn't fun, that's the key factor for me

I choose one discipline or car and go through AC, RF2 and AMS2, then decide which version is the best for my personal taste.

My sim is bad and so is yours. Pitty party at my place. Bring beer.

Everything in terms of physics in current sims is a compromise. Some will nail one aspect but will fail on others, and some won't nail a singular aspect at all, but overall may feel more intuitive to drive. The physics calculations required for a perfect simulation of an individual car are not even attainable even with the stuff the big F1 teams use in their Skunkworks section, let alone a PC or console. At the extremes you either end up with intricate physics calculations at a low sample rate, or you have approximate and simplified physics calculations at a high sample rate - the trick is to balance this compromise. There's no point having an an intricate physics implementation that can only be calculated a couple of times a second, nor is there any point having a very simple physics implementation that can be performed 10,000 times a second. I also hate the term simcade as when it comes to the actual driving all sims are simcade in that they don't actually truly represent reality for the above reasons. TL;DR - just drive the sim you get the best feeling from and enjoy the most.

Just stick to one sim be good at it and win. In the end it's a sim.

Nils, can you link the interview you mentioned with the bmw simulator? Can't find it and would love to watch.

Well said!

I commend you for your bravery.

You were talking a lot about what data the developers can use. But there is another question before we can answer that: is there any data available? And I'm not talking about teams/oems not sharing specific data. But there are things where the teams or OEMs actually dont know how things are working. So irl you can put a car together and if it works it works, without ever questioning how or why it works. Its just a given based on the law of physics. Meanwhile in the sim we need to calculate and unverstand everything perfectly in order to replicate it. But how should we replicate it, if we dont know how it works irl? We have to guesstimate it. And surely different sims will come to a different solution then.

Where is the paper on tyres?

excellent

There is no such thing as the Golden Path. You stay on the golden path by frequently checking both sides for the best route forward. Contrast is important. It's not about what is best, it is about what you prefer. Don't let loyalty blind you. Thanks Nils, valient attempt.

They do have an interest in cooperating with developers. Eyeballs is the major currency in racing and sim racing combined with KZfaq has become a major source of eyeballs. GT3 in particular has gotten a large boost in much needed interest IMHO. Developers should hire sim racers and put them in real cars to assist development and eventually maybe they will.

i like any game sorry sim's i can race :D

Do even the manufacturers own sims recreat the real thing 100%

Exactly! I've been doing this for a very long time and the realism debate is just BS. It's never been realistic and it never will be. Realistic is when you sit in a car. The rest is sim, it's something different. And for most people it's different what they want to get out of it and how. For me it's how the sim transmits the driving experience to me. The "best" or "most realistic" sim is the one that makes me feel like a racing driver, do what a racing driver does in his car. This can be achieved by different means, many of which are correct, not all of which are the same. 1) First and foremost of course the sensation of speed or racing. When I hurtle down the Schwedenkreuz in my Porsche in AC or in my Mustang in ACC or in my John PLayer Special Lotus in AMS2 I get that. And if I do it side by side with another dude on a server, even more so. I get the adrenaline rush, my hair stands up, I feel like I'm barely8 holding on, I get sweaty hands. I feel like a racing driver. 2) Second is what I do during the race. I monitor tires, I evaluate when to go full out or when to go at 98%, I decide if I should defend or maybe let through and tuck in behind, I decide whether it's my battle or leave it for a few laps later, I change the brake balance to the hairpin and then again back for the long gfast 5th gear corner, I add a little TC cos my worn tires may spin over the off camber crest, I desuce to stay out another lap, I check the other guy's laptimes around me ... I am a racing driver, flying through the turns, competing with others, doing what racing drivers do. This may also come with a cost in realsim, maybe even in the driving mechanics. The grip curve may noit be 100% exactly as in real life, but if the car feels aweome, I can live with a little deviation. ACC in car sound is way over the top, I know this. But I also have to admit that it helps me immerse. The rattling and crackling over uneven track, the pebbles banging against your chassis afer an off. I know you wouldn't hear this ina real car. But it gives me that extra little kick. The feeling of speed which I don't get in my chair because I have no G forces. Physics and realism are one, very important, element. But not the only element. And they can be transmitted in different ways. One is not necessarily always better than the other. Over the last 35 years I have had favourite sims at all stages, my go to sim. But I have also played all others. Some I liked more, some less, but I always appreciate the choice .. thank you for your effort! Now others may be looking for something different: Some may want to replicate the exact sounds of sitting in a cockpit, the exact brake curve, the exact steering weight, only feel what the real cars' wheel would transmit. Basically focusing on the pure driving, only seeing and feeling through wheel and pedals what you would feel in a real car. Minus the g-forces, the vibration and all the other sensations realitty provides. They get immersed because they know that they need to push 4.125NM strength to turn their wheel at 80kph exactly like the real car. And that is legitimate, too. Problem is that some people just can't let others enjoy what they don't see as enjoyment themselves. But if you think about it: sitting in an office chair (or a full blown rig) pretending to be a racing driver is for most "normal" people already pretty nuts. To then troll on others because they have a slightly different nuance en enjoyment of basically the same thing ... well ... you get my drift ... ... damn, this turned out way longer than I intended, I guess I had something weighing on my shoulders :P Nice video as so often, thanks Nils.

"Simracers are very tribal about their favorite sim." Fans of are very tribal about their favorite . I believe that social sciences explain this better than exact sciences. I think i understand the objective of the video, but it's like using science to demonstrate to someone who believes in God the probability of an event and that it has nothing to do with God; there is something more than purely science. p.s.: I'm not from the field of social sciences. p.s.2: I used religious belief only as an example of an understanding of the world that diverges from science. I hope I didn't sound disrespectful.

Best sim: need for speed. Change my mind

Just Drive what is fun for you. In my case its iracing And lmu. Both good And fun.

ISI engine.. Unreal graphics and iracing options for online racing. Thats all we need...

haha nices thumbnail :)

You should definitely drive a BMW GT3. Isn't there someone that let's you do it?

No you

IRACING is my choice, old sim but works for me.

Racing game community has many elitist assholes. "You can't play if you don't have an expensive rig" "HOW DARE YOU USE A CONTROLLER IN A RACING GAME?"

ACC right now sucks. After 2k hours, I had to quit the game, it was ruining my mental. Went from multiple races a day, to now not driving at all. The tyres randomly give up on you The static stability is understeery, and dynamic stability is manic, aka cars that don't want to turn, but still want to kill you Ground collisions send you to space, making the nords horrific to drive, and cars like the audi undriveable. The 0 tc meta. The ford being the laziest car addition to the game yet: Jag sounds, bmw aero... what a mess. The thing is, there seems to be no interest in upholding the quality of the game, as evidenced by the ford, but also by the fact that the 0tc meta could be solved in one after work evening by a control systems engineer. Unfortunately I can only afford iRacing a few months a year, and it also has big issues too. The 911 wears and heats the front tyres more, somehow, and the way surface temps are modelled in that game is mind boggling, resulting in the cooler, lower pressure, lower wear rear tyres somehow having less grip than the fronts. Sad time to be a broke simracer right now.

All those sim developers should seat in round table and make one rules for all sims and share data between. I will respect that very much

None of them are simulations.. They are games people play as simulators! I like ACC cause i like GT3 cars and GT racing in general. I like ACC cause i can drive mirror to mirror and not have to worry about some sort of weird net code killing me! I like acc cause the graphics look pretty amazing. But the truth is. They all have a bad physics model that dont come close to stimulating real lofe driving

It's hard to argue with irenting player and try to prove that any aspect of the game is better somewhere else than a game they spent +1k euros on

Its simple, acc=sim, other=game😂