The Truth About USA Pickleball Skill Ratings: Don't Fall for the Deception!

Рет қаралды 24,957

Жыл бұрын

In this video, PPR Certified PRO Joey Gmuer takes a deep dive into USA Pickleball rating system and explore the misconceptions surrounding it. We examine the deceptive nature of the definition document and uncover the truth about the rating system.
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This channel is dedicated to all the gold seeking Pickleballers out there who dink responsibly and stay out of the kitchen. We have all levels come through the channel, but we concentrate on the 4.0, 4.5 and up to 5.5 with the pros.
I started this channel quite by accident, I was recording my games to do film study and get better. I did not have time or money for lessons from pro pickleball coach, so I started watching all my screwups. People that I was playing with started to ask if they could watch too and I said sure. That helped all of us a lot to improve our game, strategy, mental toughness, and techniques. Now we have new pickleball videos published several times a week. We occasionally have pro pickleball players on the channel. Mostly its non pro pickleball players on their quest to 5.0 pickleball. We have all levels come through the channel, but we concentrate on the 4.0 pickleball, 4.5 pickleball and up to 5.5 pickleball with the pros.
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Пікірлер: 90

@SamSung-pn6il Жыл бұрын

At the end of the day, what counts is consistency and your ability to win matches. I was in a tournament and during the final, I bang every ball 100% since that was the only way we could win. We couldn't out-dink our opponents and they didn't handle fastballs at the back court. The rating doesn't matter if you can't adopt and find a way to win.

@brichardson1080 10 ай бұрын

Even winning is debatable due to targeting. If Joey had a partner of a lower level and lost, then does that mean he too is not a better player than the opponent?

@ginjaninja3627 3 ай бұрын

I'm glad you said that bit about the 3.5. / 4.0 / 4.5 finals looking the same. That's been my experience too.

@scottharris7222 Жыл бұрын

Great content as usual. Well done. How about more information and demonstration of the twisties. Your video you showed it solo. Can you show that with a partner or show more in game footage and explain it? I think that was critical and I don't completely grasp it. Keep em' coming!

@CharlottePickleball Жыл бұрын

"I'M SO MUCH COOLER ONLINE" and also according to the USA Pickleball Skill Ratings definitions. This is because they seem to be outdated, i.e. a 4.0 just 5 years ago would be considered a 3.5 by today's REALISTIC rec player standards. Am I right? I have a tennis background, so after reading the definitions when I first started playing, I thought I was a 4.0 right away... but not so much after playing better players. lol

@BillPiper 18 күн бұрын

Luv it! I have no rating and I hate dinking. My strength is spin and placement with power. Always thought I had to dink better until I saw this, thanks!

@MaximumLagGolf Жыл бұрын

I agree with you. We don't all have to play the same way and that rating system is just a rough starting point. A player could be 3.5 level at one skill, but 4.5 at another. Winning matches is what matters. I say bang away if you're good at it!

@DinkMastery 10 ай бұрын

This had me laughing so hard thank you 😂

@ralphparker Жыл бұрын

At 3.0 and below, I think the rating sheets can be applied in a "practice setting" because at that level, can you keep the ball moving and keep it inbounds. At the 4.0 level, it must be graded against 4.0 players. Now at some point, a higher level can accommodate the banger, or the special spinner, or other wild and wonderful skill set that lets you beat lower level players without learning the advanced game. And maybe a rare instance, someone with an especially hard drive can go into the 5.0 world and conquer. However, if that is all he has, a 3.5 with a counter ability can beat him. Almost every special ability one might have, there is a way to train yourself to defend against it. Now when it comes to partner play, two folks on the same performance wave length can really do good together. I.e. you can beat a banger, in part, by not giving him a shot to bang. Spin, you have to learn to read it well and to play it. Fast accurate service, That's tough to beat. Natural quickness is its defense. I think the rating system is good. There are outlier folks who don't match the sheets but will excel. In my community, self rating is KING. And there are those who can perform in the lab environment and claim the rating but can't perform on the court against aggressive competitors.

@anniezohar5415 Жыл бұрын

When I am practicing I am about a 3, but once I am in a game I am a -2. I stink in a real game. I am very new. I will keep trying, but I am not sure I will ever be able to play decently in a real game. I do have fun practicing and doing drills so I might just have to be happy with that.

@Bergarita Жыл бұрын

An interesting discussion. As a 5 month newbie to the sport I thought I was a 3.5 player, but now I realize I'm probably a 3.0. I don't worry about ratings right now, I just want to improve. Need more practice and need to wait for a "good player" stack down at the rec court even if it means waiting a little bit longer to play.

@CohenAcademy Жыл бұрын

Congrats on your pro win!

@ScottT109 Жыл бұрын

If you play 2-3 tournaments at 3.5 skill and win the bracket each time move up to 4.0 and see if you can repeat the performance. If not in top 3, then one is probably a 3.5 skill If you can win or place second repeatedly in your bracket it probably makes sense to move up a skill level bracket to keep challenging yourself and getting better.

@jaythibodeau6961 Жыл бұрын

This makes sense to me. I just started playing this winter in Mexico and there are no ratings at the courts. Just a novice court and the better court. Now that I’m back in the US I will just start at 3.0 and see how I do. Then move up if I start to win consistently in that grouping.

@ginjaninja3627 3 ай бұрын

You mentioned wind a couple of times in this video and you also mentioned South Florida. I was eyeing a tournament in Punta Gorda in November. But do you think there's a high chance the playing conditions wouldn't be great?

@ThePickleballPirates 3 ай бұрын

Punta Gorda almost always have swirly/gusty winds.

@rinab9876 Жыл бұрын

Ratings apparently don’t matter much, as for one tournament a player signs up as a 3.5, the next he/she signs up as a 4.0 based on the field, the next he/she signs up as a 3.0. Heck, within tournaments players will sign up as 3.0 at singles, 4.0 at mixed and 3.5 as gender doubles. Once you get a rating, it needs to be managed by the system and bump up as needed, just like tennis does. If you are a 3.5 player, but want to play with a 4.0, you have to sign up as a 4.0 team, or maybe sign up with a 4.5 and play 8.0 combo, if they start that kind of thing. People just abuse the rating system and sign up wherever they think they can win.

@raymondeargle8653 Жыл бұрын

The setting skills is always a hard setting to a standards varables I feel if you have a good partner it make you good with pratice.

@CharlottePickleball Жыл бұрын

We have a PPA tournament coming next month here in Charlotte, but I'm thinking of skipping the playing part this year, because you're right..... I know 4.5+ players will be playing 4.0 and hence I would get crushed! (I only play singles competitively)

@CharlottePickleball Жыл бұрын

I refuse to be a sandbagger, just because "everyone does it." Even here on KZfaq, pro pickleballers recommend rec players to enter .5 down when playing in a PPA event. smh

@ThePickleballPirates Жыл бұрын

Get to 4.5 level. At 4.5 no sandbagging

@CharlottePickleball Жыл бұрын

@@ThePickleballPirates I ALREADY AM..... if I only go by the definitions of USA Pickleball Player Ratings. lol

@WilliamBrownGuitar Жыл бұрын

Who cares about the stupid medal. Play up and get better.

@markdoehrman5134 Жыл бұрын

In doubles it seems hard to rate oneself if you or you're partner is the weak link. Example is I've played really well in rec times when I was on the same side with a true 3.5 player or 4.0 and opposing side being the same,,but I did not do as well when with other players with lesser skill level. Seems like I'm only a possible 3.5 to 4.0 level only when I get to play with them,,and those better than 3.5,4.0 or better, they stop showing up for rec play and start getting clicky,,,so you get stuck chasing down fast games at courts,,or go into singles,,cause finding a double partner is not always that simple. So single tournaments is what I might need to chase if I want faster play times. Just seems rec play is temporary, because the better they get, the more they want to not to be slowed down, or when they do show up they only want to play with their partner. At some point I guess alot will go through with this process, but will realize till they get good also. So to get my fix in I'll go chase some single matches this year.

@skylercutsforth8595 3 ай бұрын

They should make a handicap rating system that you can apply. Like based off stats, you film a round count the number of critical elements; successful drops, serve depths, return depths, speed ups, resets, and then number of errors/misses at each of those positions. And then maybe like tallying the number of shots using each spin type? And then, having to entering a round with all those stats in order to update your handicap/rating. And you're rating consists of the average of your top 3 rounds out of your last 10. It'd be way too tedious tho...

@annmaes7550 Жыл бұрын

The game is evolving. You can play the classic game and look pretty or you can play to win the point. Strategy is important. In a tournament, I play to win. Bang or dink, drop or lob. Whatever gets the job done!

@Bergarita Жыл бұрын

Very well put!

@RobertBucchianeri--Author Жыл бұрын

Interesting. A good video...

@ThePickleballPirates Жыл бұрын

Thanks!

@nchambers007 8 ай бұрын

Ironically the actual official skills assessment sheets are both Too Detailed and Too Vague. They say "must meet ALL the previous levels standards AND these standards as well", then they proceed to list a ton of vague and subjective descriptions instead of assigning percentages or ranges for specific situations. I might be dropping my 3rds like a boss until some 5.0 who's a lanky 6'7" makes those look like I'm a 3.0. And phrases like "able to sustain a medium length dink rally" is pretty meaningless in the vacuum of "what is medium length? How aggressive are the dinks from the other team?" along with a dozen more questions. ... I have played against a lot of 4.0+ DUPRs aka "4.0 class" players who, subjectively (as all the official written standards are) had many gaps in their 4.0 official skillset, and many skills where they (again, subjectively) are closer to 5.0.

@caryt59 2 ай бұрын

Good advise. Try to keep your sound level consistent with your speaking, video transitions and music!

@ThePickleballPirates 2 ай бұрын

Thanks, will do!

@Thejoeb Жыл бұрын

Nationals ratings are 3.0= 4.5 and everything above that is 5.0 (kidding but kind of not) You will have trouble figuring out what bracket any final is because they all look like 4.5+

@ThePickleballPirates Жыл бұрын

That's only before they start playing each other 3.5 vs 4.0, 4.0 vs 4.5. Then the difference becomes obvious

@mattc3581 8 ай бұрын

The rating based on a list of skills is a very rough starting point at best. Coming from other racket sports I've seen players who had absolutely beautiful shots, they looked so smooth and so well coached. They start playing a game and you'd absolutely destroy them because they just couldn't put it together and play the right shots at the right times in a match scenario. I've said before and I'll say again though, the DUPR ratings do seem to be too volatile. You see people who are a 3.8 rating one week, have a single poor tournament and drop down to 3.3 or something, which is a crazy big drop for an established player. It's easy to see how people end up in tournaments they are completely the wrong level for. Which leads me to the other point, in any decent size tournament there are always likely to be some players playing lower than they really should. So any final you watch on youtube, say a 4.0-4.5 final, if you search the DUPR of those players a few months later they are often all around 5.0 or higher.

@jeffcaptain6738 Жыл бұрын

What’s a tor na mint?

@ralphparker Жыл бұрын

I have friends who played in sanctioned tournaments. They got a tournament rating back after the tournament based upon their playing history and how they did in the tournament.

@ThePickleballPirates Жыл бұрын

what does it mean "They got a tournament rating back"?

@ralphparker Жыл бұрын

@@ThePickleballPirates After the tournament was over they analyzed all the players and updated their tournament rating. This keeps a 4.0+ from playing as a 3.5. This guy actually teetered from barely above a 4.0 to slightly below a 4.0. This was a couple years ago when I discussed this with him. I don't know if they still do it.

@ThePickleballPirates Жыл бұрын

We think that ratings without tournaments do not have much sense

@ralphparker Жыл бұрын

@@ThePickleballPirates ratings help you get in groups that you won't annoy everyone.

@ThePickleballPirates Жыл бұрын

for that you can have a completely unattached internal rating. Or use DUPR for clubs

@jamesgordy880 Жыл бұрын

I am playing US Open 3.0 3.5 singles. My Dupr is 3.4 There is a guy with a WPA 3.0 rating but his dupt is 4.41 in Singles

@steveraymond6169 Жыл бұрын

Joey, you're a trip, young brother. I love your stuff. You didn't speak to the issue of relative age and ratings. I would have liked to hear your perspective on that beyond the mention of mobility. Is a 3.5 70-year-old the same as a 3.5 30-year-old. In a test environment, yes. But athleticism on the court matters, which includes brain visual processing and reflex speed and useful field of vision, which can be trained up in older players but still very much advantaged in younger players. What are your thoughts on that?

@ThePickleballPirates Жыл бұрын

Calculated rating is just rating. It reflects your chances to win against others. Age does not participate.

@bryanyee7 8 ай бұрын

I've heard from other advanced people that to adjust for vast differences in age (let's just say 30 yr gap), there should be about a point difference in differential (a 4.0 60 yr old vs a 3.0 30 yr old). At some point, there is a very sizable gap between the two different age brackets when it comes to speed, reaction time, flexibility, and overall health.

@KennyNissel Жыл бұрын

I'm gonna help out all the pickleball players right now: the only rating that means anything is if you gain or lose rating each time you play. That is how chess works that is how table tennis works. These broad categories are not useful

@Riker-ER Жыл бұрын

We have a couple hundred players come thru our town each summer. Only seen one legit 5.0 player & he only came once. 🤔

@ThePickleballPirates Жыл бұрын

That's normal unless your "town" is New York :) Not that many 5.0s wander around

@detaildon Жыл бұрын

I saw 4 5.0 players at Bobby Riggs today.

@PickleballMilo Жыл бұрын

I am new to the sport playing about 5 months. If I go off the ratings I am a 4.0-4.5 player. I consider myself a 3.0 player because I lack a lot of experience and there are many holes in my game. I recently watched a youtube video with 4.0 players in the gold medal round. I don't think they would beat 3.5 players out here in southern AL. You can be a higher end player where you play but if you go to another area, you find out you are not as good as you thought.

@ThePickleballPirates Жыл бұрын

This is exactly what this video is about. When you (3.0 player) see 4.0 on video you think you are better. That's very unlikely. Video is deceptive. Different areas have slightly different levels but not by much (maybe within 0.2 points). it's really hard job to judge the level based on video. In 5 months you just cannot acquire that skill.

@Orefamilylawncare 6 ай бұрын

If people would quit looking at these very basic self assessment sheets on Google and actually pull up the assessment as if you were being graded upon what you can actually do consistently I believe a lot of "4.0" players are in reality a 3.0 .

@Fernando-kh9oo Жыл бұрын

i have been to Orlando and I played with the Pirates, they are the real deal. people that say they are 3.5 at best are insane, they wouldnt score 5 points against them in rec play

@bart1476 Жыл бұрын

Lol. No you wouldn't score many points.

@Fernando-kh9oo Жыл бұрын

@@bart1476 go to clearone buddy, put up or shutup

@psucsi4145 Жыл бұрын

Regional variances also, just like attractive people. What's a 9 in my neck of the woods might be a 7 in South Beach. Then there is the divided body situation. 3.5 from the hips up, but 3.0 and sliding down as that session goes on due to an arthritic knee. Love playing with 20-something young-ins. IMHO subject ratings, next thing to smoke and mirrors. Just go have fun.

@keithchasteen8593 Жыл бұрын

Wish I could make the "clap" emoji. It would be "clap, clap, clap!"

@ThePickleballPirates Жыл бұрын

👏👏👏

@nilkamals Жыл бұрын

Joey is 3.5 at best

@RobertBucchianeri--Author Жыл бұрын

Why would you say that? It's obviously not true...

@nilkamals Жыл бұрын

@@RobertBucchianeri--Author Just a joke based on the video

@RobertBucchianeri--Author Жыл бұрын

@@nilkamals Okay, Sorry,,,,

@brichardson1080 10 ай бұрын

As a player with 10 years experience, I remember playing before the rating system. I think your rating should be given to you by those more experienced players that play in your area. Those that have played with and against you during rec play.

@ThePickleballPirates 10 ай бұрын

That would be highly subjective. The only objective rating is the one calculated from your tournaments participation.

@brichardson1080 10 ай бұрын

@@ThePickleballPirates My partners get targeted and I lose. Because of that, my rating has dropped to a 4.0. That's why I don't think winning/losing should determine your skill level.

@ThePickleballPirates 10 ай бұрын

If you play with weak partner all the time for a long period, that could be the problem. Still it's less subjective than someone's opinions. This reflects you pickleball double skill very well. When you partner is being targeted, you should adjust your game, cover more court, maybe be more aggressive or more reliable in defense. Part of the game that's also could be measured. If you think you are 4.5, you should know that.

@brichardson1080 10 ай бұрын

@@ThePickleballPirates I do think I'm a 4.5 because when the ball comes my way, I know I can 'compete' with other 4.5s and some lower 5.0s, whether I win or lose. But I don't think I should be labeled a 4.0 because the ball doesn't come my way in tournaments or if my partner is having a bad day.

@ThePickleballPirates 10 ай бұрын

We believe your problem is that you think about rating as of reward or privilege. It's not. It's just literally a number that represents your chances against other players to place/seed you properly. It *only* can be calculated based on your tournament results. There is no way around it. And if you compete against 4.5s but never win, you are likely not 4.5 yet.

@pjpj2639 Жыл бұрын

I ( in my humble opinion) how did you do in a good size tournament….say 8-10 teams…..did you medal? And play four or five tournaments at that level…if you medal in one or two if them you belong…..if you didn’t you probably not that level. Just sayin

@kento1957 Жыл бұрын

The only objective rating is the IPTPA rating. Purely skill based and objective.

@ThePickleballPirates Жыл бұрын

Yes, good attempt to collect some money on vanity. It is useless though as it is not used at tournaments, the only rational justification for rating existence.

@kento1957 Жыл бұрын

@@ThePickleballPirates There are other applications. Rec. leagues and organized round robins.

@utikahk4538 2 ай бұрын

If you can move your opponents around where you want and have accurate shots, you can win. I've beat people I should not have because they were predictable. Mix it up. You don't have to dink to win.

@afterthesmash Жыл бұрын

Joey is deliberately making this too complicated. The basic paper rating ensures that players have a broad range of basic skills, and that you won't show up at a rec game rated 4.0+ and go "what's a dink?" When you get a random partner in the 4.0 rec game, and your new partner goes "what do you like to do on the third shot?" you won't go "huh? what's a third shot?" If you are playing tournaments, you'll get a DUPR rating and then you'll have that, as well. But it will just be a starting point. No single rating captures everything, in any walk of life.

@Pickleballq Жыл бұрын

Right on, Joey! I bet 95% of core players are self-rated. We all know how that goes. Most of us believe we are at least above average. It would be great for one of the organizations to put aside ratings for awhile and develop tools and guides that would help clubs and organizations efficiently organize and run non-tournament, rec play, as well as non-profit Pickleball events.

@ThePickleballPirates Жыл бұрын

Ratings do not have much sense beyond tournaments participation

@skylercutsforth8595 3 ай бұрын

2:57 foot fault!

@ThePickleballPirates 3 ай бұрын

absolutely not

@skylercutsforth8595 3 ай бұрын

@@ThePickleballPirates wait really? 😂 I might not actually understand..

@ThePickleballPirates 3 ай бұрын

Easily. You only cannot volley from kitchen. At the moment you referred to there was no volley shot. Also we do not see any one to step into the kitchen either. So it might be just the wrong time mark you provided.

@skylercutsforth8595 3 ай бұрын

@@ThePickleballPirates oh woop lol you right. not sure what my brain was lookin at before