I thought this video was very interesting. I may make a DA successor chapter primaris army at some point in the future. One thing I would add to your very relevant discussion about the inner circle of other Unforgiven chapters - in Gav Thorpe's DA trilogy as one of the characters progresses into the Deathwing it's revealed that his Sergeant is ex-Deathwing and in fact the inner circle is everywhere watching the chapter. Any position of authority within the DA is occupied by an ex-Deathwing member with knowledge of the fallen. There could have been an interesting story about how the primaris were all forced to fight under regular marine sergeants and masters etc. and resented it within all primaris foundings. Not realising that they were being watched like any other member of the Unforgiven. But yeah, I still think GW screwed the pooch on the primaris lore generally... but esp so for the DA. Too much of it doesn't fit with the characters and the people writing it clearly didn't care whether it made any sense for DA lore. (Hell, they were calling Master Lazarus a Captain in their early stories despite the fact there's been pages dedicated in the DA codex for ages saying there are no Captains in the DA.) Also, some of the jokes in this comment section are great :)

How did the Dark Angels treated their Primaris Marines initially in regards to The Fallen?

I've been working on a fan primaris successor chapter that are entirely unaware of the Fallen and who's purpose is to act as sort of a PR chapter. their job is to aid and fill in for firstborn when ever they are working with other Imperial factions and leave to go hunt fallen. as far as they know from Azrael, the firstborn are required to leave when ever a suspected "relic of Caliban" is suspected in the area. I'd like to think they even provided cover while the firstborn were loading a "relic" in an oddly space marine sized containment unit into a thunderhawk.

You’re not cool if you don’t respond to the video based on title and thumbnail alone.

Why aren’t we talking about this guy whose name is a syllable away from being a traitor primarch?

*What's that you've got in your hand?* This? Oh it's just the secrets of the Dark Angels Chaptaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa..... Oh. This is unfortunate!

Alright, I've seen this Asmodai interrogate "HE HAS A BOOK!!" reference a couple times now. What "book" is this referring to?

@@TheShepherd2305 If the emperor had a text to speech device episode 27 at the very end. If you've never seen if the emperor had a text to speech device before... Drop everything you're currently doing and binge it. If you're a fan of warhammer you'll probably die of laughter at least a dozen or so times before hitting episode 15. It's on KZfaq from a dude called Albfusa.

@@TheShepherd2305 Sorry I was Wrong. Its from Episode 28, Heres a Direct link to the timestamped part of the episode. You should really take the time to watch all of TTS though, its by far one of the best community made things of warhammer available on the internet! kzfaq.info/get/bejne/b9eZZqin2seWc6c.html

@@eyeballpapercut4400 Oh thats sly................. Now wheres the Marbo?

Commissar:.....ok *other Dark Angel comes* Commissar:Sir it seams your comerade have fallen Dark Angel: *loads bolter* Brother why?

Purge the planet!

@@kenicherothered6816 "Yes Mylord, it's a great tragedy. We don't know what led to the massive engagement but all Loyals on that planet have fallen." "And the Fallen?" "No trace of them." "What are you waiting for? Hunt them down!"

but doesn't whats currently left of caliban fly around through space as their fortress ship....

as a member of Cyphers Legion I say... STOP ACTING BONKERS AND WAKE UP OUR DAMNED PRIMARCH ALREADY!!! Oh..wait... you guys didnt even remember he was there in the rock...did you.....*ruffles threw a huge demon skin bag then holds out a book* It's the Lions Tome. Read it. Learn it. And wake his ass up!

Everyone else has left the chat(with smashed heads and crozius bits on them)

{Alpharius Omegon has entered chat}: It begins, as it ends as the Emperor, ordained. {Alpharius Omegon has disconnected}

He has a *BOOK*

BOOK!!!

@@gargoyles9999 he's in cahoots with the fallen!

The Dark Angels are the First, the Honoured, the Sons of the Lion. Their battle record is exemplary and their legend reflects this. Breaking that legend by openly declaring the Fallen to the Imperium would have destructive effects on morale all across the Imperium. Also, many organisations like the Inquisiton would seek to take advantage of this and maybe even declare the Unforgiven excommunicate traitors in their idiot zeal. This cannot be allowed to happen. The Unforgiven is a significant portion of the Imperiums might, and are purpose built Chaos killers. This is why the Dark Angels continue the Hunt in secret. It's not just from a Knights shame and honour, but out of necessity. The Unforgivens continuation is VITAL to the Imperium of Man's survival.

If they had done that 11k years earlier sure. Now? Hiding a secret for such a long time plus the paranoia and cover ups and "missing" Inqiusitors make for a big rap on the knuckles.

True, a big faction of the White Scars turned traitor, with ironically loyalist remnants of 1000 Sons helping The Khan during the Heresy, speaking of Loyalist 1000 Sons(!) half the Blood Ravens turned traitor in the current era but the whole chapter wasn’t declared as fallen

@@Maxibon2007 it was several centuries after the destruction of Caliban that the Dark Angels learned of the survival of the Fallen. They had thought them destroyed. By then the Imperium was relatively stable, and to bring this up so soon after the Scouring would have thrown a spanner in the works of that stability. So the Dark Angels took on what they saw as their own task with a Knights honour. The Unforgiven take a certain mindset to understand

Speaking of blackshields I read an account somewhere of Loyalist Death Guard marines deciding to adopt the old heraldry of the Dusk Raiders when they chose to remain loyal to mankind. kinda interesting.

So is apple pie, but only if you eat it when the time is right, and eventually, you’ll be out of pie. Even if you bake another, you’re still only chasing the original satisfaction, and over time, the taste of pies past weary evermore the more it is consumed. Eventually, you try a different dessert, maybe it’s blueberry. It’s still pie, but the core of its essence is different, and so your loyalty has shifted from within. It’s the ethereal nature of loyalty that makes it valuable. I’m gonna go eat pie now.

@@PointySuperman in assuming you are a fat teenager with a terrible "beard" and a trenchcoat

Primaris within the Dark Angels will certainly learn about the Fallen eventually, yes (Apharan himself was the first _official_ example of this occurring) but it is an altogether different matter regarding an entire Primaris chapter. While it is certainly possible that Azrael may come to inform the Ultima Founding Unforgiven Chapters of the Fallen in the future, as of right now (i.e pre 9th ed DA codex) it remains unclear if these chapters are _currently_ aware of the Fallen in any capacity (which is the topic of this video).

>"get over" sounds like what GW told BL writters when they were complaining too

@@luckiller019 In the words of the Dread Pirate Roberts: "Get used to disappointment."

REPEEEEEEEENT!!!!!

There’s something indescribably comical about a spacemarine whispering that line to another after they’ve ducked behind a corner.

The Blades of Vengeance or Angels of Defiance? Have to admit, the Blades have a nice mix of green, red and bone for their colour scheme.

I’m curious also as to which chapter and also how the new codex/supplement will fill in the blanks.

@@40KTheories Blades of Vengeance

Innocence proves nothing.

An open mind is like a castle with it's gates unbarred and unguarded.

DO YOU HEAR THE VOICES TOO!?

Yeah but that was poorly written. Hopefully they'll put more effort into it.

Considering none of the dark angels actually know he is still alive? Probably not much. All the DA believe the Lion is dead and gone. The Watchers in the Dark recovered Jonson on Caliban and secured him in the Rock without any DA knowing. In the DA trilogy you learn that the Watchers have the ability to open up completely random passages to places in the Rock. This happens with they finally reveal Tulchulcha to Azrael and Ezekial. They come to Azrael and just warp magic a tunnel that leads to Tulchulcha. So the Lion's status is completely unknown to them, except for maybe Cypher.

He already knows, given the events that occurred after the Heresy with the battle of Caliban.

If BL writers continue with the HH Jonson character arc, then probably not much. In a sense the DA as they are now are just a chip off the old block. Interrogators were already a part of the Legion before the Lions fall. The Lion was regularly secretive about issues, sometimes even from his own legion, but especially his brothers. He was willing to "do what it takes to get the job done", even if it meant collateral damage (something he and Guilliman frequently butted heads over in Imperium Secundus). The final fight with and capture of the Night Haunter is a perfect shadow of the legion to come. They find their quarry, they break the "imperiums" rules in the hunt, they capture quarry, Jonson tries to hide how he broke the rules to capture Curze from Guilliman and Sanguinius, etc. Jonson was fine with breaking rules if he felt the ends would justify the means. That is why he sanctioned the use of psykers during the HH even with the edict of Nikea, imposed a form of marshall law/curfews on Macragge, used Void bombs to get to Curze, etc. Most chapters inherit specific traits from their gene father, whether by chapter culture or actual gene inheritance. Ultramarines have the perfect society/ rulership thing going to them. The Imperial Fists are the builders and defenders. Blood Angels have the angelic nobility, yet red thirst. Space Wolves are boisterous, yet good hearted, and function like a pack. And the DA are secretive, willing to do what it takes for what they believe is the greater good, and rather lethal. All the chapters of the original legions are basically shadows of their gene fathers in tactics, chapter organization, duty, and personality.

Guiliman: Perfectly balanced, as all things should be

Man-Emperor: Bout Fucking time

The art is an official piece from 2nd edition, depicting the Emperor battling a representation of evil (most commonly associated with Horus)

If guilliman does knlw, they probably don't know. And guilliman probably understands more than any other why they are hiding it

This is actually a really good idea, although its Risky to cross the Rubicon and no doubt thousands of loyal marines still haven't, I'd say by the end of the M42 almost every loyal marine will be Primaris, meaning renegades, and the fallen will be easier to identify.

Unless that group of loyal Dark Angels abandoned their Primaris "bros" wherever they stood side by side when they got word of Fallen's locations and rushed there to get them. Having Primaris among Firstborn requires them to know what all the fuzz is about when they are dealing with said fuzz. Otherwise...shhhh....don't tell them.

3:57

@@40KTheories Has Guilliman knowing of The Fallen been retconned now? Could've sworn he knew about it or maybe I'm thinking of blood angels not dark angels.

@@joevidya From memory he knows about both. Sanguinus told him about the flaws and he knows about the Fallen

"I just wanna say, I'm a big fan" Alpharius to Luther, M.31

Lion was there and knows of the fallen

According to the Unforgiven novel series, some of the "lower ranking" Dark Angels are under the impression that Lion El'Jonson was killed during the Horus Heresy, so I would assume that's the story they would tell others who ask.

Hence why we said "at least two" hehe

Before the ultimate flunding there were at least 70 chapters at any given moment but there's only ever 6 mentioned in the codexes so we can take the same treatment with ultima. Theres far far more chapter than the ones mentioned.

There is a part in one of the books where Guilliman describes what it was like to talk to the Emperor but nothing about what was talked about besides that the Emperor had some plan in mind. Which wouldn’t surprise me, if you were taking a 10,000 year bathroom break you’d probably come up with some plans. Apparently this one required a Primarch returning.

They are the first. The others are not

All the fallen dont appear at once, and not all fallen are renegades or traitors. Some don't care either way and others are under the guise that lion is the traitor. Still others are still loyal. Also its warp fuckery. They were sucked through space and time so when ever they pop out, they pop out. At least that's how I understand it. Also there are 70 thousand 1st born chapters and all of them have contingents of 1st and 2nd companies that hunt down fallen

Nope. That would be grand Master of the 1st. Supreme grand Master is the equivalent of a chapter master

The Supreme Grandmaster rank of the Dark Angels infers Azrael is the Leader of the Inner circle, there isn't any secret known the the Dark Angels that he dosn't have access to. In quotes he'd be something like a "Chapter Master" however with how the Dark Angels and their successors are organized you can more or less think of him as the Leader of the First Legion. As Dark Angels successor chapters answer the call of their Parent chapter which is one of the reasons they are accused of "Legion building". Also note I said "known secrets" only the watchers of the dark know that the Lion is alive, Luther probably knows as well but time has taken it's toll.

Cant. Honor is at stake. They are the first and the most lotal of the legions and their fallen attacked and "killed" theor primarch. They can't just get over that shame. They must all be brought to bare for the sins they committed against the lion amd the lion

themasterninja110 Absolutely, bring the fallen to justice for that. But as for the rest...a line summed it up rather well. There's nothing to forgive. -shrugs- Then again I'm not a dark angels player, so to each their own.

Christopher Johnson as you should be

The High Lords have accused the Dark Angels of Legion building on at least one occasion, yes.

@@40KTheories *Laughs in Black Templar estimates*

@@retroicdescent considering the dark angles have at least 70 chapters at any given time, thats at least 70k space marines and those are only the ones the high lords know about. Not to mention the first and 2nd companies dont stop at 100 space marines

themasterninja110 no, the 70 chapters was before the white dwarf article. The 2019 septembers issue of WD states that the High Lords of Terra and inquisition are supporting Unforgiven legion building now in order to counter the rise of power of ultramar. Also the very same article mentions that guiliman himself is pumping out many new Unforgiven chapters because he knows the sons of the Lion fight the hardest and among those least likely to fall into chaos. By now they are atleast 90-100k strong.

@@plasmahdtv I did not know that. Thank you for the update