The unexpected car problem F1 teams are battling in pre-season testing

Рет қаралды 1,104,489

2 жыл бұрын

Modern F1 teams are always super-prepared for a new season, even in a year like 2022 where the cars are designed to brand new rules. But there was one element that proved very difficult to simulate ahead of the cars running on the track for real.
The problem is known as porpoising. And it is a phenomenon that was a problem during F1’s last ground effect era in the late 1970s and early 1980s. At its worst, it can result in damage to the floor and give the drivers a big headache.
Some teams have struggled with porpoising and its variants during pre-season testing in Barcelona. So what exactly is causing it, why is it so hard to detect and how can teams solve their problems?
#F1testing #F12022 #porpoising
READ MORE HERE
the-race.com/formula-1/f1-202...
Subscribe: the-race.com/youtube_subscribe
Website: the-race.com/
Twitter: @wearetherace
Instagram: @wearetherace
Facebook: / wearetherace
Podcasts: the-race.com/podcasts
Thanks for watching - please like, share and comment, please also hit subscribe to show your support so we'll keep doing what we're doing.
www.the-race.com
/ wearetherace

Пікірлер: 915

@KimiButNoDrink 2 жыл бұрын

The Venturi tunnels coming back is probably the most overlooked thing. Yes it caused the Lotus to become unstable but the downforce was absolutely and ridiculously amazing. I'm so glad to see them back.

@michaelperry9180 2 жыл бұрын

I think the new Venturi tunnels are meant to be much more stable. The skirts used to seal the floor on the old cars were attached to the bodywork so if the car lifted, the seal would break and they’d lose downforce immediately. I believe the new cars are using vortices to seal the floor (genius) which is much more consistent/predictable.

@mali5469 2 жыл бұрын

And dont forget they don't come with as much drag as there is with over body aero

@JeffBirdOfficial 2 жыл бұрын

I don't think it's been underrated at all. The entire rules are based around them.

@F1ll1nTh3Blanks 2 жыл бұрын

To counter this, teams would use smart actuating damping and aero either passive or active but that's all banned so teams will have to find other ways, the team that does the best job will yield big. I wonder if we'll see a complete fresh drawing board approach from some teams in the future, that focuses on neutralising this.

@thatsl1ve183 2 жыл бұрын

@@F1ll1nTh3Blanks in the past Mercedes have done interesting things with there suspension systems. But we will see who comes up with the best solution. At least at the start of the season, this could be a big advantage. Until the summer break i would think all teams handle it very well. Maybe not Haas, but the rest :D

@Mgoblagulkablong 2 жыл бұрын

Haas has a different problem: Tortoising.

@DanceySteveYNWA 2 жыл бұрын

Sponsored by Shell

@izzyf9446 2 жыл бұрын

Probably one of the funniest things I’ve read all week 😂😂

@randomdaveUK 2 жыл бұрын

The porpoising tortoise

@F1ll1nTh3Blanks 2 жыл бұрын

@marouanekibani9607 2 жыл бұрын

You sir have just made my shitty ass night, thank you

@MiniMii550 2 жыл бұрын

Hydraulic suspension systems like the ones banned as of this year would help a lot as their porpoise was to maintain a consistent ride height which would help lot to stop the porpoising

@eudofia 2 жыл бұрын

I see what you did there😃. The 'porpoise' of the hydraulic suspension is to help prevent porpoising.

@ArkadiaII 2 жыл бұрын

🤣😂🤣 Yep. Slow clap Ross Brawn!

@oisinleonard2648 2 жыл бұрын

Duel mass dampers the easiest way of fixing it without the suspension being stiffened

@ChernyawskyNikolai 2 жыл бұрын

Russia unexpected declare war at 4 am yesterday.

@danielbum912 2 жыл бұрын

*sigh* take your upvote

@EliteSkid123 2 жыл бұрын

Fun fact , active suspension existed because of porpoising.

@Hemersonr 2 жыл бұрын

good point

@pb-pw4lw 2 жыл бұрын

"In for a penny in for a pound", you want close turbulence free racing lets go full AI with active aero flaps and pressure relief panels, this can become real fun and super technical ...

@zooot820 2 жыл бұрын

And it will come back. Eventually

@GuacJuan 2 жыл бұрын

Williams still has secrets about their active suspension in case it ever returned. Maybe F1 will allow active suspension again due to this issue. Williams on top in the next 5 years then yeah.

@mitchell-wallisforce7859 2 жыл бұрын

@@pb-pw4lw Full AI? Do you mean autonomous cars or a machine learning program onboard the car (like Yamaha does with its endurance racing -YZR-M1- YZF-R1 superbikes)? A machine learning algorithm figuring out how to avoid porpoising could be EXTREMELY cool.

@frankowot4 2 жыл бұрын

Are they doing it on porpoise?

@coolice46 2 жыл бұрын

Highly underrated

@ApothecaryTerry 2 жыл бұрын

Not sure whether to like or dislike this comment...Dads around the world must be proud.

@timb171 2 жыл бұрын

As a dad I approve of this comment

@tdyerwestfield 2 жыл бұрын

This could also be due to difficulties setting up the brand new suspension and tyres that the teams haven't learnt how to counter-act the effect of the less spongey tyres on the car over bumps, kerbs and how that reacts with the Venturi effect at high speeds.

@Habdabi 2 жыл бұрын

Yeah some feedback going on that isn't captured in simulation

@ChernyawskyNikolai 2 жыл бұрын

Russia unexpected declare war at 4 am yesterday.

@KnowledgePerformance7 2 жыл бұрын

@@Habdabi I'm sure teams knew this was a possibility, many of these teams have a ton of experience and modern computer simulations are incredibly powerful

@rbarnes4076 2 жыл бұрын

Just proof that when suspensions and down force creation are adjusted at the limits of car performance, trade-offs exist. I'm sure everyone in F1 knew about this (at least in theory) , but simulations can only simulate so much (because simulations only express what we KNOW, not what is REAL). No matter how good a sim is, you only really know by real world testing and experimentation. This is true for ANY simulation of ANY real world system. Better data in, better data out.. but it will never be perfect.

@thevinceberry 2 жыл бұрын

And no hydraulic suspension either 🙄

@ebutuoyYT 2 жыл бұрын

Was it really unexpected? The same issue occurred in the 80/90s, when underfloor downforce increases, meant teams ran ultra hard springs, affecting driver comfort in a big way. Active suspension was the solution, until politics banned it. This might ruin the 2022 season, as the first team to solve this issue, while still using all their available downforce is going to Brawn the season.

@wolfgangvan-uber6515 2 жыл бұрын

Maybe they should reintroduce that too, wouldn't be such a bad idea.

@ebutuoyYT 2 жыл бұрын

@@wolfgangvan-uber6515 The electronics / computing parts for active suspension are now highly affordable and accessible, unlike in the early 90s. There is also a direct role for active suspension in road cars, once F1 has done the R&D work.

@nickypoundtown9568 2 жыл бұрын

They may aswell bring active suspension back seeing as they've brought back turbos and ground effects This could be the era they find a way to make all banned technology work together

@Barni2212 2 жыл бұрын

They thought they can simulate everything with computers and wind tunnels. At the end they realise that nothing is more accurate than real life data.

@rnichol22 2 жыл бұрын

Eh ground effect was banned years before active suspension was used

@Nick-qx1vf 2 жыл бұрын

The Porpoise intro was absolutely freakin incredible. Great stuff as per usual, guys!

@timwoolliscroft4201 2 жыл бұрын

Inglorious Bastards style

@ChernyawskyNikolai 2 жыл бұрын

Russia unexpected declare war at 4 am yesterday as Gilter in 1942.

@jesuschrist7169 2 жыл бұрын

@@ChernyawskyNikolai yay

@barrymorris7856 2 жыл бұрын

I can see kerb damage as a real problem to these new cars.

@TheCheesenChips 2 жыл бұрын

I think that was the FIAs plan, they want drivers to stop cutting corners.

@daytoncooper1891 2 жыл бұрын

Red Bull Ring licking its lips to these cars

@doppey33 2 жыл бұрын

@AdmiralOddSock Tracks the same for everyone! Yea it's hard to overtake, but it's more about not slamming the hard up the wall or off a kerb while pushing. Alternative is loads more tracks like Paul Ricard, flat, loads of run off, no punishment for mistakes. Should start forcing them onto tracks like Brands Hatch, Castle Combe and the full Nurburgring circuit.

@1964mcqueen 2 жыл бұрын

We experience porpousing in skydiving. For us, the solution is to relax. This allows the air to move more freely past our falling bodies. It seems that something similar is needed here; a sort of pressure release system to allow air to escape more freely.

@jhomkarlopatinoperez3 2 жыл бұрын

Like an active down force reduction system? xd

@Gatotsu2009 2 жыл бұрын

There are 2 simple solutions to this problem. One is to stiff the suspension but that will make the car bounce in even the smallest bump and avoid the best racing line in slow corners (therefore losing time). The other way will be to reduce DWF (downforce) but again that will make cars slower in the corners. Until last years the teams could run very complex suspension systems (hydraulic systems, inerters, etc.) due to this is hard to control the bouncing like before. You cant replicate this problem in wind tunnels because regulations only allow them to run at 180 km/h.

@klodinkediloni762 2 жыл бұрын

@@Gatotsu2009 why not just say downforce 💀

@durim187 2 жыл бұрын

the correct term you are looking for is active aero, not allowed in F1 though. but i totally see F1 allowing a flap under the diffuser to be programed to move in certain angles in certain speed, nothing fancy and F1 can keep all the data.

@F1ll1nTh3Blanks 2 жыл бұрын

That's basically passive/active actuating aero and suspension/damping. All of which were banned in entirety, the later for this season. I see X and co have already explained this well enough.

@mckeonthulani2122 2 жыл бұрын

As an engineering student I'm interested in seeing how they solve this

@Den_Anderen 2 жыл бұрын

Active damper in the nose might make a comeback

@F1ll1nTh3Blanks 2 жыл бұрын

@@Den_Anderen Wasn't any kinda damping already banned for this season. How will it come back without regulation change.

@DeKempster 2 жыл бұрын

Duct tape!

@90enemies 2 жыл бұрын

Active Suspension, like no joke when ground suction were starting to emerge back in the 80s and the team faced this identical issue, they developed Active Suspension as the solution But guess what *it's banned* now

@loopie007 2 жыл бұрын

It's great to see lots of teams having this issue and not have it plague just one team. Now we will get to see how the different teams "minimize" this issue, while keeping it legal, light and fast. It sort of reminds me of a aero wing that is stalling, or a wing that has flex along it's cord. Way cool..

@KimiButNoDrink 2 жыл бұрын

Almost every tall driver: * complains about difficulty seeing the track * Tsunoda: 😐

@hey2335 2 жыл бұрын

You can joke as you like, but Tsunoda doesn't complain compared to tall drivers because he has already ridden 18 inch tires and has more experience than them. Not once did I hear him complain about the visibility in interviews. On the contrary, he says he will use the experience from F2 for this time.

@KimiButNoDrink 2 жыл бұрын

@@hey2335 Yeah apparently they also handle like F2 cars as well with the extra weight which is an advantage for drivers who recently came from F2 / did well in F2.

@kevinchristopher2294 2 жыл бұрын

In the video, you described porpoising is the wave motion as the porpoise skips in and out of the water. In actuality, porpoising is called that because of how porpoises propel themselves through the water. Porpoises (and whales) use an up and down motion with their tail fins and bodies, where as fish use a side to side motion. Which, is also where we get the term Fishtailing.

@CouriersLondon 2 жыл бұрын

...and to help clarify matters further, Porpoises actually stole their movement from the world of break dancing. Yes, B-Boys were funking away with 'The worm' (or centipede) dance move long before any fish came along. I wonder also which driver we will hear over the radio being physically affected with motion sickness.

@seanriopel3132 2 жыл бұрын

@@CouriersLondon well the missionary position got its name from the priests who would spread the word of God which had the unintended effect of also spreading women's legs which a "celibate" man couldn't resist.

@kevinchristopher2294 2 жыл бұрын

@@seanriopel3132 pedantics matter. There was no disrespect, only clarification. The term is not at all being used because it is similar. It is being used because of the reason I stated. Now, he maybe using it that way because someone told him that the cars were porpoising and he went and looked up videos of porpoises and came to his own theory of why it's called that. That doesn't mean thats the reason it's called that.

@kevinchristopher2294 2 жыл бұрын

@@seanriopel3132 😂 i guess you learn something new everyday.

@seanriopel3132 2 жыл бұрын

@@kevinchristopher2294 there is a big difference between something causing linear motion from vertical movement and vertical movement caused from linear motion.

@Shasha_Mynx 2 жыл бұрын

That guitar when you introduced the porpoise got me good

@FelpsX44 2 жыл бұрын

Ground effect + active suspension = perfect combination

@asterixdogmatix1073 2 жыл бұрын

My thoughts as well.

@adr23 2 жыл бұрын

Also death race2

@gregmason8150 2 жыл бұрын

They need to shorten the wheelbase and lighten the cars substantially.

@davidbrown8517 2 жыл бұрын

When the FIA brought in these new rules surely they must have anticipated this problem.

@officialWWM 2 жыл бұрын

Yes but they also know the engineers are clever enough to fix it.

@thegreatotaku118 2 жыл бұрын

And that's why the FIA simplified the suspension system, to force the racing team to find the solution.

@captaintoyota3171 2 жыл бұрын

Yes but untill your in real world theres no data to make solutions

@waynetowers5046 2 жыл бұрын

The FIA are like Politicians, they get "ideas" for the everyday person (Engineer) to do which work in their minds, but in the real world the people know better and end up making things more efficient & workable. An example is the 2022 spec cars, they came up with a basic design, the teams made it better and are resolving flaws.

@MLB9000 2 жыл бұрын

The FIA's only function is to set the rules, it's up to the teams to build the fastest car within those rules, and don't call me Shirley.

@chairmankaga2821 2 жыл бұрын

Back in the original ground effect era, it was just as much of a problem. Skirts helped to minimize it but it was still something to deal with at every race.

@jiboo6850 2 жыл бұрын

wrong! skirts maintains the seal of airflow which increases the downforce. which in fact increase porpoising. the more you push the car to the ground the more chance you have to bottom out and create the porpoising. the solutions are titanium blocks to keep the car at a minimum height or active suspensions. because with the raising of ride height, they will lose downforce on slow corners. considering the weight of these cars, it will be very slow in slow corners. not sure it's what they want.

@jamiewaelend9242 2 жыл бұрын

Great explanation, keep this type of content coming. I love following the technical challenges of the 22 regs

@boomerang-digital8514 2 жыл бұрын

if so much downforce comes from the floor. does that mean floor damage is gonna have a huge effect?

@fkez0510 2 жыл бұрын

Absolutely, any floor damage will be devastating

@boomerang-digital8514 2 жыл бұрын

@@fkez0510 worrying. considering so many track have damaging curbs

@fkez0510 2 жыл бұрын

@@boomerang-digital8514 yep

@MrPHILFULL 2 жыл бұрын

@@boomerang-digital8514 They will have to change the curbs on many tracks

@psk5746 2 жыл бұрын

@@MrPHILFULL Or drivers will have to stick to the track limits for once

@theslimeylimey 2 жыл бұрын

I'm guessing they will be able to get this under control with changes to spring rates, dampers, tire pressures or suspension geometry at the expense of grip or handling. It is a blessing they don't have the old tires with taller balloon sidewalls because that would have likely made the porpoising problem even worse and harder to manage.

@MX304 2 жыл бұрын

That was not unexpected. It is always a concern when using ground effects.

@imtherealvict1m 2 жыл бұрын

I think they meant it was unexpected That it was so severe or maybe they thought the teams would’ve found a way to at least help counteract porpoising

@Grooove_e 2 жыл бұрын

I wonder if this could result in lower downforce rear wings and stiffer rear suspension, less downforce over the rear wheels of the car and more reliance on the downforce generated near the car's center of mass by the venturi tunnels. My theory is that's where we will see many changes in the next few testing days

@imadrifter 2 жыл бұрын

Stiffer F1 suspensions? Yikes

@donpaul4269 2 жыл бұрын

Or no suspension. Like williams did😅

@dheerajmurthy393 2 жыл бұрын

maybe not, i think its the tires, suspension and floor thats causing this problem. The teams are using drs to manage the situation which means the downforce created by the wing is enough. More downforce will make the floor touch the ground bit earlier. As for solution probably an underbody drs could be introduced.

@ahmadfirdaus4183 2 жыл бұрын

I remember alan jones interviewed in the 1983 french grand prix about that year flat floor regulations changes. He said that the current is car (the flat floor one) is much better in terms of driver comfort compared to the ones he's used to (wich is ground effect cars) but not necessarily easier to drive because its has the tendency to sliding around

@Tjulfar 2 жыл бұрын

Wouldn't this be easily fixed by not giving the chassis so much travel in the suspension , so the floor tnever gets so low that the Porpoising is triggered or would this be to easy ?

@Tjulfar 2 жыл бұрын

Ah alright already Mentioned in the Video :D

@joshaltea 2 жыл бұрын

Good one

@TheJohnlyh 2 жыл бұрын

Or prehaps a better solution is an unsprung floor or diffuser. So basically the floor attaches to the suspension which moves together with it. thus having a constant height to the road even under compression. Oh well but then again im no expert at this.

@JoseNovaUltra 2 жыл бұрын

Yeah, but it come with its own problems, cars would suffer far more for bumps and kerba, body-roll would increase, and it would probably negate the benefits of the camber in tires. There are another problems, but I don't know that much. To solve it maybe a suspension that gets exponencially stiffer? An anti-stall aero device? Changes on the wings?

@rinkwilbrink653 2 жыл бұрын

yes but the tires flex too,this is something you cant really stiffen up

@cjsnowdon 2 жыл бұрын

I think the 94 Williams had a similar problem at the start of the season. The car got better after the enforced changes after the Monaco gran prix (or it may have been the Spanish grand prix)

@Mr_Jingles_147 2 жыл бұрын

Agreed, and has been shown to have contributed to Senna's crash at Imola due to wear on the floor.

@Marine450x 2 жыл бұрын

And now you know why IndyCar puts so much development into their "shocks". Also, isn't this what F1 wants, putting the drivability and management there-of into the hands of the drivers? In my mind this should make the on-track racing better and make who's fast & who isn't variable from race week to race week, and not the same 1 or 2 teams dominate each week.

@okothobbo 2 жыл бұрын

A problem I frankly had not heard about until the Barcelona tests. Very well explained. Only wish you had actual footage of the cars porpoising. But great video.

@harrybrown4815 2 жыл бұрын

I've been commenting on this since before the launch of the new cars, and why ground effect was banned in the first place. When the air stalls the car loses downforce and then can not perform in a uniform way. That is on entry to a corner after a straight and cutting across the track the following cars air stalls and suddenly there is no downforce. Rather than being able to overtake that car is forced off track by not being able to retard the speed as there is not the expected braking available as seen in the previous ground effect era. Ground effect can only be safely used with active suspension.

@gerhardvaneeden5615 2 жыл бұрын

Yeah, I see some major accidents happening. If a car is going through a fast corner (Pouhon, Spa), and this happens, it's going to be a quick and bumpy trip to the barrier.

@mignik01 2 жыл бұрын

The tunnels don't compress and expand airflow. These cars work mostly in the incompressible flow regime and can't change the local density of the flow.

@Kev79 2 жыл бұрын

It could really make for some interesting racing this year with no data on any track save for the testing ones

@chrispraz5198 2 жыл бұрын

Great coverage. The Race has become benchmark stuff!

@jrc51773 2 жыл бұрын

Nicely explained with great animations -- well done.

@jayhow997 2 жыл бұрын

Renault knew how to deal with it back in the day. Mass damper.

@Nesformers 2 жыл бұрын

It was bound to happen when they forced teams to simplify the suspensions to go kart levels.

@TomDeWeerdt1 2 жыл бұрын

Simpliyfy the suspension? There are something like 8 elements to the suspension per wheel.

@Artiick 2 жыл бұрын

@@TomDeWeerdt1 FIA banned mass dampers and other genius ideas. Compared to early 2000s the modern era suspensions are much simpler.

@squelchedotter 2 жыл бұрын

I mean the rules served their purpose right? In an era where suspensions didn't need to be complicated, they saved a lot of money on developing complicated suspension systems. That can now change.

@psk5746 2 жыл бұрын

Have you ever seen a schematic of a 2021 F1s cars suspension? It's far from simple

@losFondos 2 жыл бұрын

@@psk5746 basically a go-kart lol, not the ones my local track has for rental

@kyalami7725 2 жыл бұрын

Great analysis guys - love your site

@iqdziksilver3884 2 жыл бұрын

I just want to appreciate the excelence of the montage. It's really very entertaining to watch ^^

@KillZoneHart1 2 жыл бұрын

I think we saw this on the iRacing or the Asset Corsa game model. Thought it was just a glitch but turns out its real lol.

@Koziolrh 2 жыл бұрын

I was thinking I was going mad at some point! Haha

@frenzybar7936 2 жыл бұрын

The driver who has the best adaptability gonna reap the spoils this season!

@Dean0017 2 жыл бұрын

You guys are awesome for explaining this. cheers

@carlandaimeeworden2814 2 жыл бұрын

Fantastic video. Great information thankyou!

@ijustfelldown 2 жыл бұрын

So refreshing to watch a video not getting ruined by hearing Aramco.

@itsokaytobeaselfhatingjew5971 2 жыл бұрын

2021: When the floor stalls the floor drops. 2022: When the floor stalls the floor rises.

@TheMrFishnDucks 2 жыл бұрын

This is something I never knew about before. Looking forward to how the teams will rise to the challenge.

@jredcarenielsen5919 2 жыл бұрын

Great information! Thank you!

@paulheinrich7645 2 жыл бұрын

The instability of physically skirted ground effect cars was proven in the 80s. How did F1 think that a vortex skirted ground effect car would perform any different?

@JeLifeCoach 2 жыл бұрын

Totally different cars and situation from then to now. So little was known then about how things interact as an integrated unit. We know so much more now. Adrian Newey talks about all this in his book “how to build a race car.” The problems now are just from a lack off data but will be solved.

@prongATO 2 жыл бұрын

I’ve been a subscriber for years now but think it would be very cool to get The Race over 1 million subscribers before the end of testing tomorrow! Let’s all try and make it happen to thank them for this awesome free coverage of testing that we would have been totally in the dark without!

@Petidani0330 2 жыл бұрын

200 000 subscribers in one day? Talk about ambition...

@JohnDaubSuperfan369 2 жыл бұрын

Google has really pulled the wool over your eyes if you think any content on this platform is "free". These people are simply doing their job, you don't pat the postman on his back either just because he's delivering your bills.

@sammieessien 2 жыл бұрын

Best explanation I've seen. Thank you.

@daniellawson2169 2 жыл бұрын

1:29 that was hilarious, so unexpected 🤣

@applesandbannanas123 2 жыл бұрын

I've heard Haas's indie car experience might have helped them to design for porpoising. Any way we could we get an observation/report from the people on the ground?

@jorgealain5126 2 жыл бұрын

Look up for the Pietro fittipaldi KZfaq channel. He describes day to day things on the Haas team

@ChrisBl33p 2 жыл бұрын

Haas don't have IndyCar experience. They have NASCAR Cup Series experience.

@leadlefthand 2 жыл бұрын

@@ChrisBl33p Newman-Haas has won multiple Indy/Cart titles in its history. Nigel Mansell can attest to that.

@ChrisBl33p 2 жыл бұрын

@@leadlefthand that is a different organization altogether.

@ChrisBl33p 2 жыл бұрын

@@leadlefthand you're thinking about Carl Haas who had the Haas Lola Formula One team. Gene Haas, no relation to Carl, is the namesake of the Haas F1 Team.

@ZontarDow 2 жыл бұрын

I await the FIA's decisions on how to handle the Russian Grand Prix given Vettel is already boycotting it and Max has stated it'd be wrong to race there in time of war, looks like Malaysia may be back on the schedule.

@fkez0510 2 жыл бұрын

Very unlikely to be Malaysia Probably will be Turkey

@sharpe3698 2 жыл бұрын

I thought the consensus rumour is that Turkey would replace it

@ZontarDow 2 жыл бұрын

@@sharpe3698 There's already a consensus on rumours?

@danhickey1227 2 жыл бұрын

Would like to see hockenheim

@itsokaytobeaselfhatingjew5971 2 жыл бұрын

Lets see how this goes first, this might just be a storm in a glass off water. I have jet to see large columns of heavy armor crossing the border in to Ukraine.

@AfricanCryptoWarlord 2 жыл бұрын

You are world-class. The village appreciates your effort

@jamespisano1164 2 жыл бұрын

Very cool explanation. I hadn't heard of this before.

@Chikaboom97 2 жыл бұрын

I think we need to bring back active suspension to counter this issue

@nbain66 2 жыл бұрын

Quite the opposite, they simplified the suspension this year. It's up to the teams to fix their cars

@autoacoustics4938 2 жыл бұрын

Maybe teams should try something similar to the FRIC suspension system that was used before

@johnjones928 2 жыл бұрын

Unfortunately FRICS and heave springs have been banned.

@ashantedula5696 2 жыл бұрын

Active aero is the solution . Trim tabs that activate at a certain speed. Planes use them in the form of speed trim of the horizontal stabilizer and yaw dampers to inhibit dutch roll

@jeffrykopis5468 2 жыл бұрын

It seems to me that, similar to the roof and hood flaps in NASCAR, small flaps could be added to the rear floor pans, when the pressure or "suction" overcomes a spring or valve. Before the rear can drop too far, the flaps briefly open.

@alvin5603 2 жыл бұрын

Pressure regulating valve ?

@TheSpacecraftX 2 жыл бұрын

Could this largely be fought with stronger heave springs in the suspension setup?

@FTWGame0N 2 жыл бұрын

Then you wont be able to run the curbs and the car will bounce a lot on bumps as well. So its one negative with another.

@gaxanuziagain1748 2 жыл бұрын

hanging on to the above question, could bump stops solve the issue - only allowing the rear of the car to drop to a certain height and then no further. Once you know at what point the ground effect stalls, just put the bump stops 1-2mm above this and it should solve the issue. I'm not an aero engineer by any standards, and happy to hear differing opinions.

@Jabid21 2 жыл бұрын

On top of that a more uncomfortable ride with stiffer suspension, especially on street circuits. It’s a delicate balance that has to be considered depending on the circuit. Mass dampers or active suspension can also help a bit but both are banned.

@TheSpacecraftX 2 жыл бұрын

@@FTWGame0N The heave springs are the active component when both sides of the car change height in the same direction at the same time, to my understanding. So shouldn't that mean you can strengthen those and have a more rigid car on the straights while still having the car comply when only one side is going over a bump like a kerb?

@sheldoniusRex 2 жыл бұрын

@@FTWGame0N heave springs only work when both sides of the car lower. A kerb hits on only one side, so the heave spring is bypassed and the regular spring and damper take that hit.

@guquadros3 2 жыл бұрын

Not unexpected at all. Mattia said teams knew it would happen, but didn't know it would be this bad.

@RedGandalf 2 жыл бұрын

Mad respect for using the Hugo Stieglitz sound effect when introducing the porpoise.

@meshplates 2 жыл бұрын

Excellent explanation. Very enlightening.

@SymplMan81 2 жыл бұрын

lol, love the nod to Inglourious Basterds - "Everyone knows *Porpoise*"

@joshoriordan3325 2 жыл бұрын

This is why we need to bring back active suspension. @The Race.

@lemmor6791civ 2 жыл бұрын

at 8:04 you can see the effect in standing water of these returning types of suction, the water in the track gets turn into a very fine sprays, almost like a cloud, it gonna make rain-in weekends more interesting...

@dougharvey9766 2 жыл бұрын

I guess a quick fix would be some very heavy/slow rebound damping, but ultimately a button that changes rebound damping when the driver needs to control rebound. Yamaha had a mechanical system on motocross bikes many years ago that was connected to the rear brake.

@vivos71 2 жыл бұрын

So what you're saying is that active suspension needs to come back? 🙃

@Kev-O 2 жыл бұрын

Will COTA be undrivable if they don’t fix this problem?

@pleepler 2 жыл бұрын

It already is, but this will make it 10x worse

@stefancroes 2 жыл бұрын

COTA has been resurfaced entirely this year

@Artiick 2 жыл бұрын

It will

@Artiick 2 жыл бұрын

@@stefancroes 🧢. What's the source?

@HATECELL 2 жыл бұрын

Flaps or vents coupled to the suspension could be a solution. Set them up in a way that they reduce the underpressure below the car if the suspension sinks down too far. But I'm pretty sure this would break some of the rules regarding active aero

@8alakai8 2 жыл бұрын

nice flying of the racing drone following was smooth maybe gopro stab to make it more smooth

@TheJGJR9 2 жыл бұрын

monza will be a race to see

@Turtle3000 2 жыл бұрын

First like and comment! Hello from Los Angeles, California, USA!

@doppey33 2 жыл бұрын

I'd love to say/think it would work out to just set the rules as..."Build the fastest car possible" "anything goes", No safety cars but if there is an incident that blocks the track everyone comes back to the grid for time staggered restart. No limits would push innovation and would let small companies design/build and race absolutely ridiculous things...Fan cars, 6 wheels, adaptive/adjustable everything, f ducts. mass dampers, electric, V12 turbos that make 4000hp etc etc. Got a feeling it would just end up as...Electric cars going that quick they can't actually race each other though.

@josephhynes5874 2 жыл бұрын

Show the animal. Play a stinging, heavy metal 5th chord...! LOVE IT! Great video. :)

@RealMaxoou262 2 жыл бұрын

Lets go back to adaptive suspension that keep the ride height stable

@KirbyCharkra 2 жыл бұрын

It would be interesting If they just allowed DRS everywhere at anytime.

@Murciielago 2 жыл бұрын

Bad idea bro. That means drs is pointless… the defending driver will be able to use it

@KirbyCharkra 2 жыл бұрын

@@Murciielago There are many people who don't want DRS at all, so it wouldn't be much different than that. I think it would be amazing to see how design philosophy would change with that in mind. Maybe if you wanted to, you could have a limited time allowance for using DRS across a race... the equivalent of 10 seconds per lap or something like that.

@Murciielago 2 жыл бұрын

@@KirbyCharkra yes, the DRS conversation is long. Referencing the initial comment “DRS everywhere at anytime” I don’t think this will ever happen I do think you have a somewhat feasible alternative. Having boost per lap/race where you can use a certain amount of DRS. This could be interesting but may be a safety issue F1 is moving in a direction that will hopefully eliminate DRS altogether. DRS is artificial and takes away true, hard racing

@KirbyCharkra 2 жыл бұрын

@@Murciielago yeah I vibe more with my second idea. I would like to see more strategic options on race day. It's true drs makes it artificial, and needs to be improved on. Who knows if drs all time would really be that much more unsafe. I can imagine some wild dive bombs... But again who knows, it's obviously better to have grip in the corner, so the drivers will use it as much as they use the brakes. End point, I can't wait for next regs to focus on smaller cars and combative driving.

@shaunlamminga4326 2 жыл бұрын

Stiffen suspension at the rear, push rod should be better, and spring mass damper to dissipate the effect when it occurs.

@hanzee9008 2 жыл бұрын

Great stuff 👍

@davilago2559 2 жыл бұрын

No Russian flag on Mazepin. Nice

@TonySopeano46 2 жыл бұрын

The whole car is a Russian flag Lmao

@indelible721 2 жыл бұрын

Good catch. Didn't even notice that

@calebkirby9109 2 жыл бұрын

@THERACE Love the channel. The only thing keeping me from subscribing is your video titles after a Grand Prix. They're too spoilery sometimes and as a North American on the west coast not able to always watch races live I've had a couple outcomes accidentally spoiled for me in my youtube suggestions. Thanks

@formuladrama8992 2 жыл бұрын

They just need to find a balance that's best for the specific track they are on. They can't build in any active aero as the rules stand right now, so either need to reduce downforce, stiffen suspension etc. Would be interesting to see how they manage on a sprint weekend with limited practice to tweek setups.

@benistingray6097 2 жыл бұрын

What about progressive springs? You could run any compression curve you need so you have a soft start of compression for slower corners/loads and increasingly harder compression rate for the higher speeds were the car compresses the most. Maybe even combined with a second helper spring?

@AndyFromBeaverton 2 жыл бұрын

Drivers will need a cushion to sit on to keep from compressing their backs.

@DanClark_ddc 2 жыл бұрын

Active cockpit suspension

@AndyFromBeaverton 2 жыл бұрын

@@DanClark_ddc `Someone built one once and it was banned. I can't remember who.

@DanClark_ddc 2 жыл бұрын

@@AndyFromBeaverton That is hilarious.

@philosofiza 2 жыл бұрын

I was expecting this, just wait until high speed spins lead to them helicoptering 20 ft into the air. Hopefully it won't end in cars clearing safety barriers and landing in the crowds! !

@stigmata77 2 жыл бұрын

"meet the porpoise" genius

@4192362 2 жыл бұрын

liking the Inglorious Bastereds references, good to see hugo stiglitz as the AM reserve driver😎

@testpilotian3188 2 жыл бұрын

Haha it’s almost as if nobody at the FIA looked in a history book.

2 жыл бұрын

They knew. But they want teams to to go along with it

@ActionEHamshraershV 2 жыл бұрын

This is a non-issue. It's a "problem" insofar as it's innate to the technology. You don't hear sports car or Indycar drivers talking about it because they never banned the concept.

@G40s_WW 2 жыл бұрын

That's what I was thinking, maybe they need to ask Dallara how to handle it 😂

@simracing4simpletons978 2 жыл бұрын

You guys have seriously been upping your game in the last year. The Race is now one of my top 3 channels to check out F1 information and news. Same goes for the group of people I watch and enjoy the sport with, they've been sharing more of your videos. Keep up the awesome work!

@dustyrusty7956 2 жыл бұрын

Excellent graphics depicting porpoising. Thanx.

@DingStiing 2 жыл бұрын

Video starts at 1:48

@Tom-qb1rj 2 жыл бұрын

Thank you

@Mtbbodhi 2 жыл бұрын

Can teams use a moveable element similar to DRS on their floors that allows air to move more freely while on straights? This seems like an easy solution but probably not within regulations.

@annahenrietta9517 2 жыл бұрын

Quickfix solutions would be adding bumpstops to limit maximum compression of the car, adjustable on a per track basis to maximise performance. Or a rebound damper to control the upwards motion once the floor stalls. That however can lead to an excessively rigid behaviour from the chassis and threaten mechanical grip loss. It's gonna be very interesting to see how the teams will deal with the issue. Especially since with the rnd cap they cannot just sacrifice floors galore for maximum performance.

@fadil_mirai6334 2 жыл бұрын

What about indy car and formula e? I thought they use ground effect since a view year prior to f1. Did they encounter this problem. How did they solve it?

@kevinmai4326 2 жыл бұрын

Is increasing the stiffness of the last bit of the suspension an option? / Increasing the bumpstop / or make a really stiff little spring that is slightly larger than the current bumpstop when fully compressed / or maybe add a plate at the end of the internal dampening which compresses the fluid harder when fully compressed which can dampened the bump with fluid at a higher point

@buddyb4343 2 жыл бұрын

As of the last say of testing, the vibrations that the porpoising puts through the drivers still look pretty severe. It will be interesting to see who can really handle it.

@Unamatrix01 2 жыл бұрын

I am not surprised with the porpoising effect making a return. Pitch sensitivity along with porpoising occur when racing cars generate a majority of the downforce from underfloor aerodynamics, specifically venturi tunnels. Since venturi tunnels require a flat plane for maximum effect, incorporating rake would reduce the overall efficiency and therefore negative pressure crated. As stated by others, the porpoising effect was the catalyst for R&D and eventual implementation of active suspension in F1 cars. Since the new regulations have banned inerters, heave springs and the FRIC (Front and Rear Interconnected Circuit) suspension system used by Mercedes-AMG F1 in previous cars until it was banned. The only option available is a combination of suspension setup and underfloor tuning.

@arnelehrke1994 2 жыл бұрын

I think of myself as a well informed fan but I didn't know about this. So thank you for this video!

@mordsythe 2 жыл бұрын

Thank you for explaining porpoiseing… I’ve spent years wondering what it was. And yea, I know I could have looked it up… just too lazy.

@stephenr6427 2 жыл бұрын

Needs turbo style grooves under the floor pan to clear the turbulence or boomerang shapes that will work I recon

@MrSCOTTtheSCOT 2 жыл бұрын

So feathering the floor rather than a single solid floor area to reduce the suck , or if you have a vacuum cleaner there the little flap at the top of the handle has little circular holes which reduce the vacuum pressure when you roll over rugs on a hard floor so you don't suck it up , so if they can vary the pressure with a little flap and various holes they can reduce the pressure build up to be more controlled

@nathanmarkcuzkumar848 2 жыл бұрын

This is quite normal to happen in prototypes when they aren’t quite setup right I remember being at spa in a ligier lmp2 and it suffered from this. Made it impossible to drive