When I was growing up in Ireland he always made a good impression on me over the radio talking about the various political machinations. It is rather soothing to hear him online now as I sit here in London, it could be a radio current affairs show back home, if I want to believe it, just briefly. My experience of him hasn't changed. He was as erudite and insightful then as he is now.

You always end up learning something new and valuable after listening to Fintan O'toole.

Thoroughly correct analysis. Over my 70 odd years, I've watched the decline of UK, whether it's the failing industries and falling pound, stupid political decisions and chaos (Brexit, declining military preparedness, shipyards), the loss of the aerospace, automotive industries (once world beaters). Sad. And it will get worse before it's over.

A great summation of the mess Britain has got itself into. Fintan has long been a thoughtful writer and he is such in this conversation.

FOT is a brilliant journalist and intellectual - one of my favourite writers

One of the problems with Brexit was that no thought was put into the referendum process. No one said "What happens if we get a narrow majority in favour of Brexit (51/52%), or what happens if it's 50.01 in favour or against of Brexit, or what happens if one Home Nation votes leave/stay?". David Cameron, Parliament, the Civil Service, just expected a yes vote, which was ridiculous. It's fine to believe that your side is going to win, but if anyone asked me to bet money on the outcome of Brexit, I would have said it was 50/50, probably in small majority in favour of Brexit. Not exactly a ringing endorsement of staying.

The Scots did not join the UK in 1707, they joined the Union of England and Wales to form Great Britain. The UK was formed in 1800 as a union between Great Britain and Ireland.

The biggest force in Britain that is disuniting the country and pushing towards breakup is the Tory party. The Tory focus is on London and the financial sector. They tend to promote divisions - divide and rule. That was part of Thatcher’s legacy. Scotland is much more socialist in outlook. As I was born in Scotland, I hope to get a Scottish passport when the UK breaks up.. 😄

This is an excellent interview. Fintan has a unique understanding of the health of the British state particularly with regards to the forces that are pulling it apart.

Great interview!

I’m a Brit (English) and I found this interview absolutely fascinating throughout. Nearly every sentence chimed with my own personal experience and sense of who we are. I don’t know how we forge a new civic nationalism based on values, rather than the old and poisonous imperial or racial pride, but we must get there or the political right will foster a much more frightening version of English nationalism.

Excellent analysis, Fintan was so accurate on brexit.

Fintan is always brilliant. He is a calm voice of reason who can accurately describe how Britain has realised it is not a world power, but a poverty stricken island with essential nothing to offer the world.

Excellent interview. Thanks to you both.

Its sad how it was the Normans who started invading Ireland, the same Normans who conquered the English nobility yet its al;ways the English.

Fintan O'Toole's assessment of English nationalism is the only way one understands the dynamic of their narcissistic martyrdom that is filled with bombast and unrealistic expectations/sense of glory and power. What I find real interesting is that many British have not yet understood that they are not in the EU anymore and cannot do anything about EU's laws anymore. They still fantasized about leading Europe, changing EU laws and blame the EU for the consequences of their decision. It's intellectually fascinating to watch.

Politics has gone from "us and always" to "me and now". Respect, duty and honour have been replaced by selfishness.

I'm Irish and once read O'Toole religiously. Until I realised he's full of it.

Fintan asks is there any aspect of English/British identity that isn't based on greivance? A 5 mintute viewing of GB news will give you the soul-sucking answer, if you're willing to stomach it.

Fintan is a treasure, such a firm grasp on history and such a clear ability to communicate.

The British people ( the average voter ) is today looking at their “umbilicus” rather than at the world. It is a shame how the average voter can destroy a country by ignorance, political gullibility, and short-term interests Also, maybe too many British voters expect the governments to take care of them, and lack a strong work ethic I hope this does not happen to Canada RS. Canada

Brexit is part of the decline of the British Empire. The process will continue until all that is left is England. England will end up being a small, medium-sized country / economy that looks up to the US, European, Chinese and Indian Superpowers. This will be a difficult psychological process for England and its political elite

O'Toole is by far the most incisive voice on the English occupation of the north of Ireland. If you have;t read his articles fir The Guardian etc you should.

Excellent interview. I planted 48 hemlock trees while listening. No advertisements. Just superb background. Cheers.

As an Englishman, I think Fintan is spot on. He wrote a very good book on Brexit a couple of years ago - "The Politics of Pain" - in which he fleshed out a lot of these same ideas very thoughtfully. I can say that in a reversal to how I felt 30 years ago my Englishness is mush more important to me now than my British identity. And I'm sure it is the same for many/most Scots and Welsh people (I don't know enough about how people in Northern Ireland are feeling). And that trend is only going in one direction. One thing Fintan should talk about more, though he alludes to its importance a couple of times, is the importance of class in influencing identity in the UK. The imperial British identity and post-imperial Britishness were very much middle- and upper-middle class identities. The upper classes (aristocrats who until the early 20th century owned most of the land in the UK and wielded enormous political power) and working class people tended not to have much involvement in the Empire and didn't really identify with it. Working class people, if they went overseas at all, tended towards permanent emigration, quickly taking the identity of their new country. But it was the middle- and upper-middle classes; the civil servants and colonial administrators, military officers, academics, doctors, lawyers, archeologists, engineers, politicians etc (people who worked with their heads and who didn't break it into a sweat doing it) who spread out over the world, for whom Britishness was the core and essential identity. It somehow emboldened them to think that they had a 'mission' to forcibly spread their version of 'civilisation', 'good government', 'human rights' around the world, whether the recipients wanted it or not. And if the recipients didn't want it, they were treated brutally. As an Englishman I look on with puzzlement at the United Kingdom still building submarines with Australia and the US to counter China half a world away; I see the UK being, along with the US, the biggest supporter of Ukraine against Russia; I see the UK spending billions every year maintaining its espionage and information gathering capabilities so it can keep its position in the global intelligence community, top in that field in Europe second to the US globally, actively trying to counter China and Russia, and others. I wonder if the UK ruling classes ever stop and think 'why are we trying to do all this while equivalent countries like Spain, Italy, Mexico etc are not?' I agree that somebody should help the US counter China (other Asian countries?), somebody should help the US supply Ukraine (Poland, Germany?), I'm just puzzled why the people who run my country (which is relatively small, poor and unimportant) think it should be us. And then I remember that the UK is run by the middle- and upper-middle classes, they're the politicians, the senior civil servants, the lawyers etc, and they identify as British and they long to have a serious role in the world. This is one of the potential attractions of the UK breaking up; it would force the UK ruling classes to stop acting out all their global ambitions, as it would become impossible for them to do so. We could then become much more peaceful countries internally, with the political classes of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland focusing on the problems of their own ordinary working-class citizens (health, education, public services etc), instead of strutting around, trying to show off by playing global power politics with the top countries in the world.

Terrifically informative and fast paced on both side of the interview. Not an easy subject Involving long simmering issues closely held and culturally invested Fintin OToole brilliant as usual. Wonderful exchange. William Taylor

OMG ,you dont need to do the Euro, you can also join EEA, EFTA. You dont need to join Euro.

Sotland is an ancient nation, Catalonia is part of Spain, Scotland was never part of England so I reject that comparison from Fintan. Scots in 1707 overwhelmingly rejected union with England, it wasn't just the English who felt that way Fintan. The key issue was that Westminster offered monies lost in the Darien scheme to the key investors to have a union, not as is always peddled when we are constantly insulted by ignorant people who claim England bailed Scotland out. They didn't, and Scots were forced to pay a higher tax levy for what was essentially a bribe to the members of the Scottish parliament for their personal benefits. If there had been a plebiscite in Scotland & England then the people would have voted union down, however, the plebs didn't; get to vote.

Englands existential crisis not scotlands

no idea what I was getting into but thanks youtube for bringing this up in my list

It’s very post-modern stuff to reduce everything to a question of self-identity. Easy on the ear to listen to though so there is that. Those searching for a collective identity are those that are looking for a substitute for religion in an era when higher education has taught (sophistically) that positivist science is the means to truth.

A very good and rounded discussion of the complex nature of national identity.

another excellent presentation

brilliant love fintan o'toole

Thatcher converted an Empire into an Emporium.

What do you mean by “Nations”?

Irish Schadenfreude

Who provides your air cover?

Thatcherism was always short termism

What is the difference between a crisis and an existential crisis?

As an aside if Scotland wants to go it alone farewell say I. Peak oil year 12 billion to Treasury welfare to Scotland 24 billion.

Catalonia is not a country, Scotland is.

A Bangladesh like solution for England where the majority cedes / breaks away from the minorities to create its own identity.

Fintan O’Toole’s theories on why the British voted to leave the European Union are highly questionable, to say the least. The trouble is he only seems to expound these theories to fellow bourgeois liberals, who accept them without question. I’d love to see him debate these theories with prominent London Irish Brexit supporters, commentators like Brendan O’Neill, Liam Halligan, Ella Whelan, or Trade union leaders Mick Lynch and Eddie Dempsey.

Excellent 👍

"For every English man, his home is his castle" Why therefore are we surprised with the brexit choice. What is a castle?

Forgive my ignorance if this is wrong but I thought the clue was in the word “defence”. I thought the whole point of each country having its own military was to d e f e n d it’s borders, land and surrounding seas - not to leave the shores and attack other nations / manufacture wars. Wars destabilise countries and create displaced and often vengeful people with nowhere to go. This in turn puts pressure on the infrastructure of countries that take in the influx of subsequent refugees. This then leads to resentment amongst the indigenous people and existing citizens of the country where their needs are not being met. Add in the manner in which political parties seek to divide and conquer regions and hey presto: everyone’s apparently forgotten what makes up a civilised country. - A fully functioning healthcare system - Basic human rights: affordable heating and electricity and clean water to mention but a few. - An education system that actually provides young people with a useful qualification at the end of it. - A fully functioning legal system with trustworthy law enforcement - A functioning supply chain and banking system. Without the aforementioned; what is the meaning of a civilised society 👀 17.5 million ill -informed people decided the most logical solution was BREXIT. 🤔

And which countries in Europe have influence?

Am I the only one who finds parallels between the Republic of Ireland, Northern Ireland and the U.K. on the one hand, and, say Poland, Belarus, Ukraine and Russia on another?

The vital issue of sovereignty in Brexit not discussed. It was not about economics at its heart but the ceding of power to Eurocrats. It's so easy to be a champion of disintegration; that will happen of its own accord. The dilemma of Britishness might be solved by genuine federalism in the UK where the bonds that have formed over centuries are recognised and due regard paid to English, Scot, Welsh and Irish cultural and political autonomy. An upper house like the US and Australian Senate with equal represention from the 'states' might be the way to go. Where will the new capital be?

An interesting discussion. But Fintan seems to be happy to accept his Irish Nationalism and why not? Also he seems happy to accept English, Welsh and Scottish Nationalism. But the real heavy duty European centrists like say Jean Paul Junker are on record as saying that nationalism is now out dated, the cause of all the ills of the world and they have moved on from that by creating a European superstate. So the Irish liberals are being conned by the Europeans as to the direction of movement of travel. The liberal EU does not want any form of nationalism if they can gradually eliminate the measles of nationalism (as Einstein termed it). Hence border free travel and the Euro. It is also interesting to remember that all Ireland was part of the UK for about 120 years when the British Empire was at its largest extent. The Irish economy went down after Irish Independence in the 1920's and took a long time to recover. So an economic hit due to nationalism. But most Irish I would imagine still value their independence from the UK, and so they should. Bit like Brexit and Europe maybe but the UK is still a prosperous country with a lot more going for it now than the Irish Free State did in 1921. But Fintan is a bit deluded to my way of thinking to tie Brexit in with the end of empire. I grew up in 1960's London and there was very little talk of the empire even then. It really finished after the second world war with the fall of Singapore and then Indian Independence. Most of the African colonies went in the 1950's and more importantly there was no enthusiasm for the Empire by then. It was long over by the Brexit vote of 2016. So English nationalism certainly relevant to Brexit - but not the British empire, that is now history, not modern politics. And then there are of course the English speaking worlds of the USA, Canada, Australia and NZ which actually have a major British and Irish inheritance as well as other European countries historically. But speaking personally I don't regret my brexit vote and don't feel I have lost anything by leaving the EU. It was an additional tier of government which had to be paid for from our taxes. Too much government. Too many elections and politicians. Good riddance!

Disclaimer: I am an Englishman with Scottish ancestry, brought up in Wales who spent many years in Northern Ireland. I am one of a minority who might claim to be thoroughly British. I found Fintan O’Toole’s analysis quite accurate and very thought provoking. It was not without a distinctly modern Irish perspective (far better one must allow than ancient Irish myopia) but because of this I think he misses some aspects of Brexit (in which he is not alone). To see it simply about identity and to characterise it as a sum of grievances against Europe (of which there were many) misses what was, for many Brexiteers, the motivating factor. This was that under the increasing encroachment of EU laws the normal inclinations of the English for individualism and freedom from the state under the protection of the common law (something we share with the USA, Canada, Australia and other commonwealth countries) were thwarted. EU law is framed on a different set of principles. Based on the Napoleonic code it enshrines the state in a supervisory role enforced by gendarmes, prefects who set out the codes of acceptable behaviour. Add to this the bureaucracy that governs it, technocratic, secretive, authoritarian , unaccountable and unassailable and you have a psychological if not palpable dictatorship. The Administrative and legislative agenda is set, not by elected politicians but by an unelected and self perpetuating elite. The Eurocrats are prone to corruption and coercion. The EU Parliament is a sham, it’s elected representatives have little or no power and have no connection to a constituency that can hold them to account. My anxiety was that, should Britain have remained in the EU any longer we would have been sucked into ever closer Union, our local laws undermined and our ability to remain self-governing lost for ever. If you want to consider independence just contemplate what an EU dictatorship could impose on you. This is referred to as the Democratic Deficit of the EU. This was why so many British Citizens (those alert to the danger) took the chance to assert our independence. If Fintan O’Toole is looking for an English identity it is there (not Scots, Welsh or Irish), it is based in English Common Law. The yeoman tradition of Tom Paine, Cobden and Cobbett, the intellectual energy and Liberalism of Milton, Locke, Bentham, Mill, and Hume (yes ok a Scot) - and I would also claim the adventurous and revolutionary spirit of Franklin, Jefferson, Adams and those who drew on English principles and practice to claim a better way to form a polity. The EU is politically, intellectually and psychologically inimical to the foundations of English freedom of thought and existence. Leaving the EU was essential if we were to retain our traditions, even with the penalties of the economic costs and political friction that it has caused. What has been so disappointing is the poor performance of Parliament and our politicians in its wake. The opportunities are there, they are as much about English self- confidence when faced with condemnation for what much of the World sees as self-harm. Asserting independence and protecting our freedoms is not self-harm. Americans might find those sentiments resonate with them. A meek subjugation to EU absolutism would have been an abject surrender, something that goes against the grain in England at least. Should the other “Nations” disagree they are at liberty to leave the Union. They may come to regret it if they do.

Fintan O'Tool,e is a great journalist.

Who cares, who were we supposed to be saving this place for?

Fintan should look behind him at Africa piling in to Eire. The EU aint too popular at the moment.

In America the opposite of socialism is freedom; in Britain it is fascism. Britain was such a great nation is took not one, but two political parties to destroy it. Neither party have any interest in rebuilding the British economy. We have but two world class companies over 10Bn GBP, which is Rolls Royce engines and BAE both of which are migrating to the US. Britain has no Caterpillar, no Samsung, no Toshiba, no Apple - NOT ONE first class industrial company. British manufacturing, such as it is, is European owned and after BREXIT there will be less investment. BREXIT was the Conservative party rebranding itself as a Lower Middle Class Party which is now dominant. Britain left the world, then Europe and soon itself.

The United Kingdom of Great Britain was formed by the Treaty of Union between Scotland and England. Wales and England were not in a union: England conquered Wales. The United kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland was formed in 1801.

Scotland will leave the UK its just when it leaves

I wish you stopped comparing Scotland with Catalonia please. Their history is nothing alike. Catalonia has never been a kingdom never an independent entity. Before the Catholic Monarchs united the Peninsula by marriage in the 15th century Catalonia belonged to the crown of Aragon under King Ferdinand. There is no Act of Union nor any document related to independence between Catalonia and Spain. The only war in wich they fought in opposite sides was the one of Succssesion between the House of Habsburg and the House of Bourbon in the 18th century. Catalonians supported the Hasburgs and they lost, but it wasn't at all a war of secession as some want to present.

In the late 17th and early 19th century, Britain played a major role in ending the slave trade. (Owning a slave had been illegal in England since 1066.) The Royal Navy was tasked with intercepting slave ships and sending them back to Africa.