The US Government is About to Change Table Saws FOREVER!
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Күн бұрынThe Consumer Product Safety Commission wants to make it mandatory for all table saws to have injury mitigation technology. This could significantly increase the costs of all table saws due to licensing, parts, extra labor, retooling, and more.
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Real Lawyer Reacts to SawStop Patent Myths: • Real Lawyer Reacts to ...
Email Michael Steel (Patent Attorney) wood@tarolli.com
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Push Block I Recommend for Safety - amzn.to/3OeCpug
Table Saw Push Stick - amzn.to/3OfQOXg
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Reference Documents and Videos:
CPSC Minutes and Letters to Companies - www.cpsc.gov/s3fs-public/Comm...
CPSC Proposed Rule: www.federalregister.gov/docum...
CPCS Meeting: • Commission Meeting | S...
Felder Group and SawStop Response Letters - www.cpsc.gov/s3fs-public/COPF...
Email Chain from TTS (SawStop) www.regulations.gov/document/...
Felder Group Response to Commissioner Feldman - www.regulations.gov/document/...
All Supporting Documents related to CPSC Proposal on Table Saw Safety - www.regulations.gov/docket/CP...
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0:00 Table Saw 2024
0:30 New Table Saw Safety Rules
2:00 Why Now?
2:16 Cost of Table Saw Injuries
3:04 How do You Force Safety?
3:26 Who has SawStop like Technology?
3:55 Government Letters to Manufacturers
5:07 SawStop's Response to the Government
5:51 Felder Group's Response to Government
6:49 TTS Response to Commission
7:41 Bosch's Response to the Commission
7:56 Table Saw Patent Issues Reaction
10:23 Increasing Table Saw Prices
11:54 Table Saw Injuries
13:06 Prohibiting Stockpiling Old Table Saws
13:45 Brands Going Out of Business
14:11 Getting Sued for New Tech
14:55 The Real Issue
15:46 Effective Date on New Law
16:52 Cost Increases for Manufacturers
18:18 Estimated Reduction in Saw Sales
19:30 Licensing the Safety Technology
20:25 Monopoly on Table Saw Safety Tech
21:05 Impact on Small Business
22:17 Estimated Increase in Table Saw Prices
24:28 Cost Benefit Worth It?
26:14 What About Old Table Saws?
26:31 Real Patent Attorney's Opinion
27:34 Attorney Answers When Will This Law Happen?
28:57 - Attorney Answers Will This Raise Saw Prices?
30:27 Attorney Answers Is This Fair to Force Safety?
32:19 Attorney Answers Saw Injury Lawsuits.
35:10 Attorney Answers Creating a Monopoly?
35:42 Attorney Talks Patent Loophole
36:21 SawStop Monopoly Discussion
38:52 Complacency with Safety Technology
40:33 New Law Too Strict?
#tablesaw #woodworking #woodworkingtools
@731Woodworks 5 ай бұрын
Click "Read more" to see all of the links and tools referenced. Watch Next: Real Lawyer Reacts to SawStop Patent MYTHS: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/e8BmrKqa2Jmcgmg.html Tools in this Video: Table Saws I Have Used and Recommend: Budget Option 1 - amzn.to/3SfUdXc Budget Option 2 - amzn.to/3vGDKUj Mid Tier Option - www.lowes.com/pd/DELTA-Contractor-Saws-10-in-Carbide-Tipped-Blade-15-Amp-Table-Saw/1001385562 Best Table Saw I've Used - amzn.to/3U8ZIJW Push Block I Recommend for Safety - amzn.to/3OeCpug Table Saw Push Stick - amzn.to/3OfQOXg Hoodie I'm Wearing: www.glorifyhimgear.com/collections/frontpage Why He Matters: story4.us/731Woodworks Reference Documents and Videos: CPSC Minutes and Letters to Companies - www.cpsc.gov/s3fs-public/Comm-Mtg-Min-TableSaws-SupplementalNPR-Decisional.pdf?VersionId=JizUyNt5p7KDR_svKn2O6ql9VkHIR2E8 CPSC Proposed Rule: www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/11/01/2023-23898/safety-standard-addressing-blade-contact-injuries-on-table-saws CPCS Meeting: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/jsWci8io1czHipc.htmlsi=mHLDEOc9lqHo6n6U Felder Group and SawStop Response Letters - www.cpsc.gov/s3fs-public/COPF%20Table%20Saw%20Comment%20Extension%20%20Statement.pdf?VersionId=qg77Xf6lj0wlswefq6wB.uYnqicUAPCp Email Chain from TTS (SawStop) www.regulations.gov/document/CPSC-2011-0074-1350 Felder Group Response to Commissioner Feldman - www.regulations.gov/document/CPSC-2011-0074-1364 All Supporting Documents related to CPSC Proposal on Table Saw Safety - www.regulations.gov/docket/CPSC-2011-0074/document?documentTypes=Supporting%20%26%20Related%20Material&sortBy=postedDate The full list of tools and supplies I recommend can be found on my website: www.731woodworks.com/recommended-tools Join the TUBAFOUR NATION through Patreon to get access to exclusive member only behind the scenes videos, member only livestreams, exclusive discounts, and other cool member only perks! www.patreon.com/731woodworks Check this video's description for all the links to any tools and videos I discussed. If you use one of these Amazon and other affiliate links, I will receive a commission on qualifying purchases. Some other useful links: Daily Tool Deals on my website: www.731woodworks.com/tool-deals Subscribe to our email Newsletter to get new content alerts, sales, and more! mailchi.mp/7e44c16eefdc/731-woodworks-email-newsletter Easy to Follow Build Plans - www.731woodworks.com/store Outlaw's Board Butter - So Good it Should be Outlawed: www.731woodworks.com/store/boardbutter
@jessejohnson85 5 ай бұрын
Can't we just all pinky-promise not to touch the sharp, spinny part?
@peaceshalom3030 5 ай бұрын
A feeder option added to any shop table saw with adjustable height would keep finger out of the way. I have full details drawn up in crayon. LOL This is much better, cheaper and works with any table saw with feeder table and receiving table needed. Add dust collection to top. This idea works except for when crazy wood workers turn their table saws into lathes or other creative tools or use slid tables. I wonder how many de-gloving injures happen with lathes and other rotating devices.??
@douggauthier4768 5 ай бұрын
Bro, if this gets passed I'm immediately a SawStop hater and i'll explain why. They fought for the mandate, to have their technology to be in every tablesaw. If they release the patent for free, or at a VERY affordable rate for the manufacturers, then I'm okay with that, however if they don't, it was only a company trying to get rich by kicking out all of their competition, examples being Bosch getting sued. If their point is for everyone to be safe, be like Volvo, side note Volvo invented the 3 point safety harness seat belt, and released the patent to every auto manufacturer because it was the safest thing, and every car owner deserved that. If we're going into the same thing with tablesaws, then SawStop can be awesome, or they can be money hungry. It'll be interesting to see which way they go.
@peaceshalom3030 5 ай бұрын
I said almost the same thing in my reply below. I know every time a law is past it costs us more and takes away freedoms and rights. How about a wood feeder that covers a saw blade that adjusts in height which can be added to any current table including a saw stop. Also, that $30000 dollar table is awesome and will get after I win the lottery. LOL@@douggauthier4768
@slanwar 5 ай бұрын
Big sales coming :)))
@KazeKitsune 5 ай бұрын
If SawStop is petitioning for this technology, then part of the rule should be that SawStop must release all their patents related to injury mitigation into the public domain.
@kevinintheusa8984 4 ай бұрын
If they did that watch how fast this would go away.
@johndoerter2413 4 ай бұрын
I posted longer, The base patents are about to go into public domain. At this point bosh dewalt etc…. Want the access to the tech without licensing, or non aim competition. Pass the legislation, the 2004 sawstop model will be public domain, any technology directly copied from it is fair game, even if later patented (that’s just gaming the system). And the 2004 sawstop level of protection or something reasonably close to it 3.5mm? I think was mentioned. And I agree, the Bosh competing technology should be unfettered unless it directly copies later improvements. Now a licensing schedule allowing copy of later models if sawstop improved should be implemented. Maybe $10 for a machine 15+ years old, $20 for machines 10 years old, $50 dollars for a machine 5 years old. But every tablesaw made by a company will be assessed that level of royalty. Same law/reg and fee structure applied to Bosch react and any other comp. Tech And yeah…. A $10 dollar fee for every tablesaw. Maybe just the base $10 fee at 20 years old, and clearing impediments if any from later patents on same tech. As a thankyou for the drastic improvement in perpetuity. 1 dollar for all research in last 20 years… if there was any significant is ridiculous…. IMO. REAL IMPROVEMENTS IF ANY SHOULD BE REWARDED. Patenting a fastener with a special name that was there and not mentioned in 1999-2004 in 2020 if such a thing happened should not extend protection for 20 years because the brake is useless without it…. Just an example of patent crap seen previous decades on other products, where good idea was buried in flurry of other patents that weren’t innovations. Sawstop having 140+ patents with 110+ pending…. I have no knowledge how many might be BS DESIGNED TO PREVENT COPYING THE 2004 machine.
@BadSpock 4 ай бұрын
If sawstop were behind it they are not going to admit it. It would mean they're either trying to procure a defacto monopoly on table saw sales or they want to tax every machine sold by a competitor. Both those are contrary to the public interest so they wouldn't want anyone to know that and no commissioner would want to appear part of such a scheme. If they wanted to license their patents they could do it today. Safe to say that's not what they're after. But I'm not sure this has anything to do with them. They could have the ear of a commissioner or two, for sure.
@JDCrae 4 ай бұрын
@@BadSpock Gass has publicly admitted to it. He's not hiding it at all. How he approached the other tools companies, how they turned down his high pricing demand which then turned into him creating his own table saw company is all public knowledge. Him petitioning to make it a requirement is also well known. He's very open about being this kind of person.
@BadSpock 4 ай бұрын
@@JDCraeyes that is what he initially tried to but then he productized sawstop. That is not necessarily his current strategy.
@WalterRiggs 5 ай бұрын
This is SawStop’s wet dream. They’ve been lobbying for this for ages.
@NathanSpaeth 5 ай бұрын
Maybe, but with their patents slowly expiring, they won't be getting the monopoly advantage they were lobbying for.
@BuildwithMooney 5 ай бұрын
Exactly! What BS!
@ksv0509 5 ай бұрын
They've made a significant contribution to the industry, so it will be temporary so nothing to worry about. I don't agree it should be permanent, which is clear it won't be as it would be too obvious
@bigbob9702 5 ай бұрын
@@NathanSpaeththey are working on extending the patents. He is a greedy money grabber.
@MrRaptorman1975 5 ай бұрын
@@bigbob9702 Bingo. He sued and reached a settlement with Bosch which is rumored to pay a big sum for holding off even when the patent is up.
@soulragepage 4 ай бұрын
In 7th grade shop class, we had zero injuries using table saws and band saws and all sorts of dangerous tools. The reason was simple our shop teacher took safety seriously. Our hands and fingers were never allowed within 6 inches of the blade. If you want to reduce injuries education is the key! The end user has an obligation to themselves and their families to practice safety measures. If a bunch of 7th graders with a good teacher can avoid these kinds of injuries the majority of adults should be able to do the same. If they want to make table saws safer PSAs are how the government should be doing it. Use something other than your figures and hands when guiding the wood close to the blade. If you don't have something official use off cuts of wood or other barriers, it's that simple.
@MrBeame 4 ай бұрын
7th graders fear the saw. It's contractors with thousands of hours operating them that end up in the hospital. It is very hard to avoid complacency, especially when we historically have prioritized efficiency over safety.
@grindersandgears3445 4 ай бұрын
Personal accountability is all but dead. The last thing anyone should want is govt to help, just look what their "help" did to gas cans.
@Eric..F 4 ай бұрын
Well said! This is the training/education I gave my son before he was allowed to use the table saw or any other tools in our shop for that matter.
@cycleboy8028 4 ай бұрын
@@MrBeame How can you legislate away idiocy? I feel bad for a contractor that removes a finger, but you know the dangers. You know the safety procedures. You ignored them.
@Armadous 4 ай бұрын
@@cycleboy8028 I agree with other comments that this seems more appropriately targeted for industrial applications where accidents are more likely to come from hourly employees trying to meet quotas. I do however expect that an idiot with a table saw is likely an idiot without health coverage, which is something we all pay for.
@KennethScharf 4 ай бұрын
BTW, I've been doing woodwork for years and have never had an accident with the table saw blade. I gave the damn thing the respect it deserves. I've had close calls with kick back of the work being cut, had a 2x4 kick back and make a hole in the wall behind me. THAT could be MORE dangerous than getting cut by the blade.
@dumbdragon2129 4 ай бұрын
Survivorship bias in action
@dominicbeltz9057 4 ай бұрын
Survivorship bias is strong with this one
@asgardian6638 4 ай бұрын
Indeed, the most dangerous thing about table saws is the kick back risk. It takes a decent bit of knowledge to understand how to hold and move material to avoid kickbacks. For instance knowing what kinds of wood could have built up tension that could be released as you cut it and then it moves into the blade causing kick back. The least dangerous thing unless you're being careless is hitting the blade itself with your finger. Some people might think the band saw is dangerous but that thing makes me the least wary. I've had a band snap and while its a bit jarring it doesnt do anything because it just releases itself from the wheels.
@gilbatzri 3 ай бұрын
my grandfather lost parts of two or three fingers in his shop in the Bronx, You are lucky, don't forget that, ever.
@salvarunatortuga5396 5 ай бұрын
I'm tired of the government using the "keeping me safe" argument. I'm an adult. If I want more safety on my table saw, I'll buy one with more safety.
@H0kieJoe 5 ай бұрын
Protecting us from 'boogey men' is how they stay in business and feather their bureaucratic nests.
@joelv4495 5 ай бұрын
Honestly this sounds like Sawstop lobbyists trying to legislate away the competition 🧐
@bran-qt7ds 5 ай бұрын
You literally have thousands of safety features in your vehicles and homes that only exist because 'government' said its required. Theres a VERY high chance that one or more of them have saved you or someone you know. You'll be the first to jump on disability payments and public assistance though when your poor choices result in injury.
@H0kieJoe 5 ай бұрын
@@bran-qt7ds Mind your own business 'Brandon'. Safety principles for using power tools have existed for decades. Don't heed them at your own peril. I'm not here to subsidize the carelessness of others.
@joelv4495 5 ай бұрын
@@bran-qt7ds To be clear, I'm NOT arguing about the merits of the law, just its use as a monopoly enforced by law. Volvo gave away their patent on 3-point seatbelts before they were mandated. Can we trust the same will happen here?
@PC-ki2hv 5 ай бұрын
Great video as always. In 1959, Volvo engineer Nils Bohlin invented the three-point seat belt. Volvo Cars provided the patent to the world for free and saved more than one million lives, simply because one does not profit from death... The Bosch system was excellent because it didn't damage the blade and was less expensive than "SawHalt."
@briannelson4122 5 ай бұрын
Great point with the Volvo engineer, you beat me to the punch!
@mrniusi11 5 ай бұрын
Proof that companies will still innovate and survive and thrive without IP laws. IP laws are stupid as hell. Government protected monopolies.
@texaswilson80 5 ай бұрын
And the government still mandated it. He should have made the money.
@jdgindustries2734 5 ай бұрын
Also, how does this effect the use of dado blades?
@pete_lind 5 ай бұрын
Bosch can make its system free because Bosch is a non profit organization , as is stated in Robert Bosch will.
@matthewshannon6946 4 ай бұрын
I was a Union Carpenter in various shops in Chicago for 22 years. Worked on a table saw every day- hundreds and hundreds of cuts every day. Never got a nick. The key to saw safety is respect for the tool. I always compare it to riding a motorcycle- as soon as you don't respect the machine, it's going to bite you!!! I don't want the government to put training wheels on my saws!!
@PhilDavisplus 4 ай бұрын
Too many stupid people use these tools with zero safety training. They are dumb as a stick. I've seen them work, and it's easy to see they will lose their fingers; they are just stupid and reckless.
@danielbingham3124 3 ай бұрын
Unfortunately not everyone is diligent and non complacent as you are.
@codemiesterbeats 3 ай бұрын
Operate a lathe on a fairly regular basis and I have never found my body wrapped around it's spindle 😂
@melmartinez7002 4 ай бұрын
Just to add some contextual information. SawStop's original patents expired in 2021. They have extended protection by way of 'Continuation Patents', which are extensions / variations on on the original patent. Based on current status, their protection would expire around 2026, though new continuation filings could change that. New continuation patent filings are only effective if (a) they actually are patentable and (b) they are seen as a necessary component that any competitor would need to implement in order to compete in the space.
@larrystuder6378 4 ай бұрын
I learned to run a table saw in the '70's, as a college student in a scene shop. They taught me about 6 rules: 1. Be alert and aware of kickback. 2.Never rip anything narrower than 3 inches. 3. Don't run the blade too high. 4. Crank the blade down when done. 5. Keep your hand that's nearest the blade on the fence. 6. Never use the fence and the crosscut at the same time. We used out table saw only to rip long boards, and considered it more dangerous than the other saws, so treated it more carefully. I'm 72, have all 10 fingers
@MK-tc1on 4 ай бұрын
How much was common sense back then? I think common sense has been pretty much thrown out the window these days.
@snaredude56 4 ай бұрын
I also learned proper use in high school shop class in the 70s. I had a great teacher who spent the time before anyone was allowed to even turn on a machine. Problem is, shop class is rare if not nonexistent these days, what with the concern over liability and the push for every kid to get a college education, along with other changes in interests of the average teenager. A table saw in the hands of someone who has never had any training is extremely dangerous. I wonder if there are statistics on what the root cause for accidents requiring a trip to the ER? I suspect a large number of accidents are caused by lack of proper training, and following good table saw safety practices. It is very easy to find people doing really dumb things with a table saw on youtube so that is probably reflective of the the general population. The requirement for riving knives and functional blade guards has had to have had an impact on the number of injuries, but then again, maybe that is not born out in the stats. These two items and the invention of the Biesemeyer fence that can be accurately and consistently be set parallel to the blade have made table saws a lot safer. Problem is, many people don't use their saws correctly and they get injured, even with these excellent improvements. These are accidents, but they are caused by intentionally disregarding safety features and correct use of the tool. The rest of the injuries are actual accidents caused by fatigue, inattention or other factor that causes someone who knows better to do something they know better. AIM technology would be a great thing for all table saws to have, but I definitely have a problem with SawStop and the inventor's intentions to make millions by forcing this regulation. If it is that important to them, they should have zero issue in letting other companies use their technology for free. But, since they sued Bosch over their tech, that clearly isn't their intention.
@larrystuder6378 4 ай бұрын
@@MK-tc1on Actually, in my case, none of it. I WAS INSTRUCTED in all those rules, had never used any power tool before that...
@partciudgam8478 4 ай бұрын
I went to a school that had a pretty nice workshop, with bureaucratic "safety" requirements I put that on commas because I have the feeling they demanded you using gloves, goggles AND face mask while using things like the lathe, drill, and mill, just to discourage students from spending time using that when you had to run to the next class... the justification of safety was moot as anyone who knows rotating tools will tell you long sleves, gloves and sight impediment (by using two protections) is a big no no.
@taz6122 4 ай бұрын
@@larrystuder6378 admits to no common sense..🤣
@bobbrown1603 5 ай бұрын
Decades ago when I started reading about Mr. Gass strong-arming manufacturers and demanding legislation to require his invention, the whole thing really soured me. I could smell greed underneath it all, and I still feel that way today. I've been a professional carpenter for 43 years. I have been using a Powermatic 66 cabinet saw in my shop since 1990. I have trained myself from the get-go to do two things when I use it: 1. NEVER allow my hands ANYWHERE NEAR that moving blade. That's what a pair of sacrificial push sticks are for, and I've destroyed many of them. 2. Always anticipate where that missile will travel if the wood you're cutting should pinch against the fence or somehow catch in the saw teeth and be thrown straight back. Standing to one side of the line of travel is key. I smell monopoly coming due to hapless legislators who think it is their duty to regulate the issue without truly taking into consideration all sides of the problem. Much of it is user's failure to learn proper safety techniques before hitting the on switch. If the bureaucrats want to do something helpful, limit the licensing fee to $1.00 and call it a day. They should also overturn the restriction on Bosch's approach as an anti-monopoly move while they're at it. Gass has had his day in the sun... lets move along.
@GaryMcNeel 4 ай бұрын
Maybe it is greed. Maybe it was capitalism (ie. the American Way). Maybe he cares that tens of thousands of people have gotten severe injuries every year that cost a lot of money. Far more than the cost to manufacture. You have survivors bias. I have heard your same statement... from people now missing a digit. So limiting the "licensing fee to $1.00" is anti-capitalism. I have seen the SawStop in action - both on a hot dog and on a hand. It works perfectly. For $200 you don't loose a finger. I hear a lot of anti-capitalism talk here trying to limit how much an inventor, how has invested their on time and money in inventing. I see the saw manufacturers also trying to save a buck and sell dangerous tools that consumers may not have much experience with. As for saw lightness, there are portable SawStop's. They work great.
@republitarian484 4 ай бұрын
Well he's an "attorney" so. . . I'm also wondering if his "early life" checks out but I can't find anything on him.
@troybush5899 4 ай бұрын
Please send this to the CPSC.
@jackxv 4 ай бұрын
If Gass wanted everyone to be safer, he would relinquish his patents. It’s that simple. But forcing everyone to license it from him is just greed. He’s a piece of shit.
@donphillips5957 4 ай бұрын
So you've been using the same table saw for over 20 years. My thought with even a contractor table top saw is they're pretty reliable, simple to maintain devices that can last for years. This tech is going to make them much more complicated and more maintenance intensive, likely substantially shortening the service life.
@bunnykiller 4 ай бұрын
I worked at a kitchen cabinet company for a few yrs and there was one table saw that was fitted with the SawStop. It worked fine with dry lumber but as soon as you put wet pressure treated wood on it, it activated the SawStop destroying the blade. And besides, 99.9% of table saw mishaps occur due to operator error...
@donphillips5957 4 ай бұрын
My thought is you're exactly right in saying that contractors and hobbyists will start using other devices rather than spend the extra money.
@feinpowertoolssaleswest6514 5 ай бұрын
Back in the late 90s and early 2000s I worked for both Powermatic prior to the WMH purchase and then at Porter Cable/Delta through the Dewalt purchase. Steven Gass approached every manufacturer prior to starting SawStop in 2000 wanting to license the technology. There has always been two problems with this the first you rightly point out is that every manufacturers' legal department determined that they'd have to license this technology for every model of saw they make. For Delta we had maybe 20 different models and that license fee alone exceeded the retail cost of many of the benchtop and low end contractor saws. The second is that the license fee that Gass wanted was so cost prohibitive - not including the design and manufacturing cost increase - that any manufacturer other than Saw Stop who offered this technology wouldn't sell a single saw. The result of course is that nobody did. Then, just as now, in my opinion Gass had little interest in safety and is only interested in the revenue stream licensing would create as is evidenced by Saw Stop's continued litigation to extend the relevant patents timeline. If safety were the primary motivation then the required license fee would have been at a level the market and manufacturers could bear.
@davidseslar5798 5 ай бұрын
Equally, then and now in my opinion, the manufacturers making table saws have little interest in safety and are only interested in their market share and profits. If safety were a significant motivation, they would cease the race to the bottom in an effort to shed sufficient features and further abandon quality construction so as to undercut their competitors on price.
@bernardzsikla5640 5 ай бұрын
You know Gass did create a better mouse trap, and he should be compensated as significantly as his technology has completely alter the safety profile for an inherently dangerous piece of a equipment. I believe the manufacturing equipment industry really dropped the ball of this issue. I am absolutely not a safety nazi. But after a close call with my table saw, I realized that it would be a matter of time before I received a significant injury. My life is already complicated enough, and by loosing a finger or two with all the medical expenses, the use of my saw just wasn't worth it. Presently saving up for a sawstop product.
@realfamilyman 5 ай бұрын
I'm just getting into woodworking but the answer is obvious to me. Some government department has to buy out Sawstop for a lump sum. However as I pointed out elsewhere here, electronics ALWAYS lets you down,. always fails some time, and WHEN it fails the operator won't know. So people who are used to relying on it (e.g. Ok son, first I'm going to show you the safety features of our table saw... ARHGHGH QUICK CALL 911!!!) are going to lose not just one finger but maybe all of them.
@gungadinn 5 ай бұрын
The company I worked for, used Powermatic saws for years. Our safety department had been contacted by Saw Stop and offered to install their unit for free, looking for future sales and bragging rights in advertising. The majority of our table saw use was cutting lab test samples of graphite composites, to our blades were sintered diamond coated. Average blade was over $500. The worst condition (clogged from overheated epoxy resin) blade was chosen as the test dummy as well as a package of hot dogs. As soon as the hot dog touched the blade, bam, the saw came to a stop, but all the debris thrown off left a cloud of graphite dust and some small pieces of fiberglass from other samples. The replacement "puck" if I recall was a couple hundred dollars and the blade was trashed. It might have been a upgrade if we used a conventional saw blade, but sintered diamond leaves you with a burn mark on the digit that touched the blade. Most of the time, it doesn't even bleed, as the wound is cauterized.
@mddunlap03 5 ай бұрын
@@davidseslar5798so you hire out a Profesional driver driving the highest trims of mercadies? If not your endangering others and your family or do you chose less safe options ? Your logic is flawed becuse the if I sold a car that 100% never crashed but priced it at a 10 million then we baned every other car the world is safer but only to those that can afford it to everyone else they die nobody can afford to transport anything including medicine ,food etcetera and once you ban any saw that dosent have said tech he can charge 100k a saw becuse its that or go out of business and then that cost gets forced down those that can't afford simply have to suffer. Want a new house .... cool now they charge a extra 50k to cover the cost of 4 100k saws being tied up for a month.
@ryanthelion827 5 ай бұрын
The first "table saw" I ever used when I was a kid mounted a circular saw underneath a table with something similar to a router lift. That is going to make a come back if entry level is $500
@wilburrrrr742 5 ай бұрын
Me too. Mounted a circular saw to a wrought iron fish tank stand.
@CycleTuber 5 ай бұрын
Back in 1950 my dad built a 2 story house in PA with an ALL METAL Black & Decker 6½" circular saw that he fabricated a frame that held it upside down when he needed to rip stuff.
@jack002tuber 4 ай бұрын
I was thinking the same thing.
@fladave99 3 ай бұрын
Dumbest thing I have ever seen. Its like people are trying to drive a car by looking out of the rear view mirror and the government mandating a COVER for the mirror to stop people from doing this. YOU FEED WOOD WITH A PIECE OF SCRAP WOOD, not your hand, DUHHH
@GeeTrieste 3 ай бұрын
So true. At some point it will be so much more cost effective to put together one yourself, that will be the way people will go. Even then there may be professional kits that will be offered that is assembled by the end user, by passing all these rules that would unnecessary if only the users would be careful.
@toejah 4 ай бұрын
if it passes your going to get table saw like mounts for circular saws that don't have the current level of safety that is found in the budget tables saws now.
@histguy101 3 ай бұрын
That's a good point.
@starboard9551 4 ай бұрын
There's quite a few problems with this proposal: 1. If this is mandated for table saws how long will it be before other tools and equipment get similar mandates? 2. More importantly "safety measures" put on dangerous pieces of equipment could actually embolden people to be more reckless and complacent when they're using said equipment. 3. And of course, why is it the governments job to prevent careless people from being careless? If someone missuses something how is that the public at large's fault? 4. You can't fix stupid.
@mikewhitaker2880 4 ай бұрын
lets NOT forget #5, people WILL remove various safety devices if they think those devices hamper productivity.... and some will be removed simply because they can be removed... and #6, accidents will STILL happen no matter what safety devices are on a tool or other hazardous device... that's part of Murphy's law, anything that CAN go wrong most likely WILL go wrong....
@starboard9551 4 ай бұрын
@@mikewhitaker2880 Yeah there's definitely more issues, but I got lazy and just mentally lumped everything into problem 4. Also I myself am guilty of taking safety guards off of my power tools, though if it's an internal safety component were someone has to actually take the tool apart to remove it I think most people would probably just deal with it. Especially if that component cost them hundreds of dollars extra to be there.
@ladyhughes82 4 ай бұрын
You can't engineer around stupidly. Remove the safety labels. Let natural selection work itself out. Give emergency services the job security they deserve.
@theGr8mark 4 ай бұрын
Relating to #3, Congress passes laws that create agencies like the CPA and the FTC and their job "IS" to make things safer because that is what the law says. The Government answers to groups with money. (Because they all need it to get reelected) Insurance companies have mountains of money. They do not want to spend money on repairing your flesh. They want to take your money and pay themselves huge bonuses. Look at cars, what is the cheapest car in america? Its well over 20k now. But it has all the safety stuff on it that only Mercedes had on their cars 20 years ago. Mercedes didn't push more safety so that they could get their patents licensed by other manufactures. The Government wants to make things safer, all things, across the board. Eventually our Government is going to go bankrupt, easily within 10 years, so none of the "Safety" laws will matter because there is going to be a big reset. I foresee a huge black market for $300 saws coming across the boarder from Mexico. Just watch Ebay and FB Marketplace they will be everywhere just not at Lowes and Home Depot.
@Jazzyluvsyou100 4 ай бұрын
1. Tablesaws are disproportionally unsafe compared to other tools, this is not a problem, the reason that this is being proposed in the first place is because tablesaws are one of most dangerous tools 2. no evidence backed up to this claim, but no, in general safety options are deterrents, especially if the safety option is almost all pros. Outside of cost, the sawstop solution is almost entirely all pros 3. The government has in its best interest to help its citizens, the government legislates safety all the time, from the rules on the road, to food, etc. etc. etc. In addition, this costs the government money, we have partially subsidized health, and lost productivity is also less tax revenue. 4. agreed, but even a stupid person grazing their hand over a saw blade can have their fingers saved by this system. Increasing safety standards is not necessarily a bad thing, we look at modern cars, from bumper design to seat design, to extra features such as rear cameras.
@jakeh409 5 ай бұрын
Accidents do happen, but they can be reduced on a table saw by having good understanding on how they operate as well as having a good splitter and using a push block. I use the same saw as Norm Abram did and I follow much of his safety advice. He has pushed more wood through a table saw then I could ever dream of. I think one of the worst things is getting complacent.
@kellyvcraig 5 ай бұрын
EXACTLY After I installed a Merlin Splitter on my Unisaw, pinched wood didn't go away, BUT it went to pinching the splitter, instead of the back of the blade. AND, before they became popular, I used push shoes/blocks. That held the wood down MUCH better and kept my fingers and thumbs out of harms way. MEANWHILE, sawstop technology WILL NOT stop kickbacks (wood launches), which can be as dangerous or more dangerous than losing a piece of you.
@robertfrancis4876 5 ай бұрын
Totally agree with you
@Still.In.Saigon 4 ай бұрын
Are you aware Norm nearly lost his finger on his saw? He wear a finger cast for awhile on his show.
@BumbleBeeTF 4 ай бұрын
I see complacency as a separate topic. It's like pointing out that driving is more dangerous while reading a book.... Yep, it sure is... but your car should still be required to have headlights. My issue is with the patent preventing the technology making its way to the masses and the masses are funding the protection of that patent. Personally, I question whether patents concerning safety should exist at all.
@traviskeller845 4 ай бұрын
Well said .. I was coming into the comments to say exactly this .. first and foremost is u freestanding alwxactly what it can and can’t do , and complacency is the number one culprit in tablesaw accidents
@jazzgod21 5 ай бұрын
i have a cousin who works for Bosch, specifically in the table saw division. He worked on their system. It was built from the ground up and they believe did not violate any patents. however, once the ligation came, it became apparent that it was not in Bosch interest to spend the money to try and fight the lawsuit, as they assumed that the cost of fighting would wash out money made on their tech.
@ezdeezytube 3 ай бұрын
Its so evil they would sue to prevent safety tech.
@LibertyFabrication 3 ай бұрын
Yes, that is the reason many times European manufacturers don't bring their good tech to the US, I know some other examples of this. Because in the US there is no punishment for wrongfully suing someone. In Europe, if someone sues for infringement but is proved wrong in court, they will have to bear the defendants legal costs. That's why those lawsuits are not made unless high chances of legal success are envisioned.
@histguy101 3 ай бұрын
Bosch is the largest tool mega company in the world. They should be able to squish Sawstop guy like a bug. I don't understand
@tekturtle 4 ай бұрын
This requirement will barely lower the number of serious injuries for 2 reasons: #1, the saw-stop tech has to be able to be disabled so you don't activate it when cutting wet wood, nails, etc., so a bunch of people will just disable it so they don't risk needing to buy a new blade set. These are also likely the people who won't treat the saw with respect and are more likely to get injured. #2, there are 10s or 100s of thousands of active table saws out there that will continue to cause injuries for years to come. The government needs to stop trying to protect people from themselves. The CPSC is supposed to stop negligent and malicious issues with products, not impose severe tech changes to a tool that is always going to be dangerous.
@jasonrowe6302 4 ай бұрын
seatbelts, airbags, many examples of things like this that have worked over time.
@gilbatzri 3 ай бұрын
Don't worry this has literally no chance of becoming law, They don't even have a basic idea of what they want, how to implement anything, nor what kind of timeframe is required. The hearing was a joke CPSC should be embarrassed and the head should honestly resign or be fired, if that is the kind of work they are producing with our tax dollars. That was a clown show.
@shawnpitman876 3 ай бұрын
@@jasonrowe6302 Seatbelts? The things that a bunch of people don't wear and the only reason half of the people who do is because the cops will ticket them otherwise? You gonna send cops into everyone's house to ensure they aren't disabling the sawstop feature?
@jasonrowe6302 3 ай бұрын
@@shawnpitman876 great logic to not do it. Seatbelts cost more when they were implemented. Now it's just the price you pay for the vehicle. A very small portion of people chose to not wear them as will a very small portion of users if saws with the safety device. It's likely not going to impact saws already out there just like the new seatbelt law didn't impact cars already on the road.
@jerrythepunkrat 4 ай бұрын
A textbook case study in cronyism: one company bludgeoning an entire industry into using their product through the blunt instrument of bureaucratic regulation. All under the guise of 'for the good of the customer'.
@zarroth 4 ай бұрын
same way the jab was forced into the public.
@ATSaale 4 ай бұрын
@@zarroth vaccines have been mandated for decades, what are you talking about?
@chasferr 4 ай бұрын
Which brings me to an observation. They did this to the Radial Arm Saw in the 80s. The Radial Arm had many less accidents, even without the new safety guard, than The TS. TS accidents are 61000 per year. (Don't know how the accidents were grouped) Pretty much decimated their sales with bad publicity. So, now they are going after the TS. When they're done with that, they will go after another tool. Just another way to take our freedoms away under the guise of safety. YOU CAN'T PROTECT EVERYONE! There is always diminishing aware of statistics, dangers and procedures when buying. Then let them be self accountable. Let the competition to sell improve the product or training. Why doesn't everyone buy a Saw Stop. Because they can't afford them! So, let's make all the saws cost that much.
@remo27 4 ай бұрын
@@ATSaale One could argue that's not even a vaccine. It certainly was new technology and was not properly tested. I'm glad I never got the shot, esp as I have a heart issue.
@Tennantbuilt 4 ай бұрын
Phiser and now sawstop
@derekbryant6137 5 ай бұрын
I see track saws becoming more popular because of this and I see older stuff becoming more valuable
@xerxespamplemousse6622 5 ай бұрын
You sure? Before SawStop a Unisaw was pretty pricey. I have seen them on auctions lately (like within the last couple of months) and they struggle to break $150.
@kmbbmj5857 5 ай бұрын
To be honest, if track saws had been a thing way back when, I'd probably have that rather than a table saw now. Esp for a home workshop, many of us don't have the room to maneuver sheet goods on a table saw. If I were a saw manufacturer that makes primarily jobsite saws, I'd probably drop the table saw and look for ways to make the track saw meet those needs.
@fbenkautz2662 5 ай бұрын
I agree.
@fusionlabs6215 5 ай бұрын
I refuse to buy a table saw. I own a track saw and I can do pretty much everything a table saw does.
@timlist4173 5 ай бұрын
It is just a mater of time before they move from the table saw to all powered tools. Cha-Ching more money from companies going to politicians to make this happen. Who can afford to buy a new car without a mortgage for many years? That is from gubment mandated crap on the vehicles
@kellyvcraig 5 ай бұрын
About that SawStop technology: Kickbacks are, perhaps, the most common cause of saw injuries. Kickbacks are caused when the wood is allowed to pivot on the blade, or when the kerf closes on the back of the blade, pinching it, resulting in the blade raising the wood and throwing it back. (1) Using push blocks, splitters and feather boards will cut kickbacks to few, or even none. The splitter keeps the kerf from closing on the blade, pinching it, causing the board to raise and be launched, often, across the blade. The feather board keeps the wood straight against the fence during cutting, so it doesn't bind on the blade and get kicked back. The push block, superior to a push stick because it holds down much more of the wood, and can do a better job of holding the wood against the fence, while holding your hand out of harm's way. (2) Not allowing your hands near the blade is, also, a critical part of safe saw operation. (3) Add not raising the blade higher than it needs to be raised (just enough to allow the gullets to clear chips and dust) to upping your chances of staying safe. (4) Finally, not standing behind the work piece, in case it does launch, is critical to your saw operation safety too. ALL these things are even more important than owning a SawStop. SawStop technology does not stop kickbacks. It only protects your hands and fingers at the blade. The SawStop safety feature MUST be disabled to cut wet or treated wood. Failure to do so will activate the brake system, requiring a new cartridge and blade. Since the system MUST AND CAN can be bypassed, knowledge of the safe operation of a table saw is more critical than owning a SawStop or saw with its technology.
@gravelydon7072 4 ай бұрын
#3 is an important aspect that many don't think about. As my table saw is often used on wet PT wood, yeah, the SawStop would be worthless.
@bhabi7071 4 ай бұрын
Well said. My very first thought looking at this was kickback, and precisely the points you made about splitter, riving knives, proper technique (stand out of line of fire, pushblocks etc. I've got enough going on in my life, and no cycles available for this topic. Sawstop has $$$ for high six figure lobbyists. True it might also increase people using saws and diy hobbyists like me. Respect and appreciation to those pointing out the issues. Peace and respect.
@d2darrel 4 ай бұрын
Kickbacks are, perhaps, the most common cause of NEW LAWS.
@Countrylifeprojects 4 ай бұрын
Kickbacks...exactly, as in what kickbacks are Sawstop passing on to those in power to give them a huge market edge and drastic increase in sales.
@kellyvcraig 4 ай бұрын
@@Countrylifeprojects, snort. Well put.
@rynait 4 ай бұрын
after watching. and as US citizen I see immediate violation. Sherman anti-trust act. there is only one US company has monopoly on this technology, and had blocked Bosch with Bosch's modification. This commission ruling most likely encourage monopoly, thus violate the Sherman anti-trust act, and per prior court rulings, Government agencies and commission(s) can not violate standing laws. Gut feel, commission will get "punished" for violating the law.
@0AndrewBolt0 4 ай бұрын
A really great video. Thanks for all the work you put into it. Nicely balanced reporting.
@fbenkautz2662 5 ай бұрын
I do think the riving knife was a cost effective and great improvement. I purchased the DeWalt shown in your shop. I also have an ancient Craftsman table saw which I am very careful with. How much safer would woodworking be if there was more training like putting shops back into the schools and teaching the reality of how to use potentially dangerous tools.
@tchevrier 5 ай бұрын
I wonder what percentage of all those table saw injuries is a result of the riving knife and/or blade guard being removed.
@lc3853 5 ай бұрын
@@tchevrier Zero percent. Injuries are due to operator error.
@tchevrier 5 ай бұрын
@@lc3853 not true, but let me rephrase. What percentage of those table saw injuries could have been prevented by a properly installed riving knife and/or blade guard.
@realfamilyman 5 ай бұрын
"Safe" tools are MORE dangerous imho because they give a false sense of security. And since it involves electronics, which ALWAYS fails at some point, the operator won't know about it until after they've taken 2, 3, all(?) fingers off before the pain registers. My finger was dragged into a circular saw blade that I was using incorrectly and I didn't feel it for maybe 20 seconds - more than enough time to slice through every finger because you "know" the saw is going to save you.
@henrythompson7595 5 ай бұрын
I am all for the idea of safety training in school shops, and after school training on an adult education basis - Some SMALL FEE, not something stupid like $200 ......
@MrJohnnyboyrebel 5 ай бұрын
At Volvo, the inventor of the three-point seatbelt gave away the patent for the good of mankind. Sawstop and Bosch could follow suit, but since they are obligated to increase shareholder wealth (as are all corporations) it is unlikely those patents will be released without license.
@davejones8770 5 ай бұрын
I was just thinking about this while watching the video.
@janeblogs324 5 ай бұрын
Smarter every day had a friend design a new saw stop, instantly wanted to patent it for profit not safety
@pinkyhotmessx69 5 ай бұрын
Well the government has 5he power to lift their patents if it benefits the safety of man. So there's that. Otherwise it's nothing more than greed on the government and creator of the patent which seems to be the case
@okgroomer1966 5 ай бұрын
@@pinkyhotmessx69Just curious how much of your disposable income you give away? Or do you keep it to buy things you want?
@hereandthere9023 4 ай бұрын
For a while OSHA required carpenters to use gloves around table saws. They quit doing that when they learned saws could drag people's hands into them when people wore gloves.
@paulrace7721 2 ай бұрын
I love your channel and follow you closely. I don't share your faith perspective but absolutely love your channel. I am an educator and you knock it out of the park in your easy to follow instructions and engaging content. Kudos to you. You evidently put a great deal of time and thought into your productions and its shows. I've seen your growth and I've relied on your reviews. I even purchased a Milwaukee track saw after watching your review, excellent. I have to respectfully say that we all need to put guards on our table saws. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 30,000 table saw incidents a year and 4,000 amputations. They say about 10 table saw accidents a day in the US, concerning to say the least. Blade guards are a challenge. Yes they are a pain, no you can't keep them on for all operations, yes they take time to take off and put on, and yes, they save fingers. I totally get that you don't want to add to the cost of table saws. I taught in a middle school and they were required to have a blade guard on their table saw. I do feel that those influencers that operate their saws without a guard are sending the wrong message. Thanks for presenting both sides. Please keep in mind that most of the regulations that keep us safe, food, cars, travel, air quality, etc., have always come at a cost that businesses has fought tooth and nail. Take the long view and keep in mind that we want to do everything that we can to keep woodworkers, and budding woodworkers, our sons and daughters, to be safe in the shop. Keep those great videos coming. All my best.
@oakoliver7183 5 ай бұрын
They are simply working with SawStop to get a licensing fee which they will get a kickback from. It it goes through for table saws it will eventually include circular saws. The saw cartridges are destroyed when they function so the cost is much much higher than just 200 dollars. Always remember, there is not one single person in government who truly cares about you. It is always about money in their pockets.
@BadSpock 4 ай бұрын
All wrong. The government doesn't get paid any licensing fee in any scenario. Sawstop owns its patents and can license them. Or not. So far, not. The government's interest here is simply the mission of the agency, consumer safety. Also remember the government is us...
@arnehermann3417 4 ай бұрын
To say that "there is not one single person in government who truly cares about you" is about as cynical a statement (and so utterly demonstrably false) as I've heard. And for what it's worth, that idea about "money in their pockets" is much more likely on the right of the political spectrum than the left.
@WhoIsTheEdman 3 ай бұрын
And here I am, a dumbass thinking that it was a good thing when anti-lock brakes, seatbelts, airbags, and back up cameras were mandated in cars. Little did I know that the government was in bed with Big Seatbelt. It was all just money in their pockets.
@Renrondog 5 ай бұрын
So Glad I bought my Harvey Cabinet saw recently. Great saw BTW. 45 years and can still count to 10 on my fingers and thumbs. Safety is not an accident.
@fishhuntadventure 3 ай бұрын
Excellent woodworking business issues being discussed. That component is ignored by so many active in this sector
@mugmiso 4 ай бұрын
Price increase also seems to ignore the cost of cartridges and blades that need replacement. The spares that need to be stocked to ensure that if you trigger off a staple left behind by the lumberyard, Black paint, mirrored plexiglass, etc...you can still hit your deadlines.
@ChickenPermissionOG 3 ай бұрын
Probable cheaper then losing a finger hand etcetera.
@histguy101 3 ай бұрын
@@ChickenPermissionOGright, but the odds of such an incident happening are very low, while the odds of triggering the cartridge for a dozen other reasons are very high
@mikefrank8511 5 ай бұрын
Sawstop has been lobbying for this type of regulation since the day they got the patent. I'd be interested in seeing the money flow for the regulators involved in setting the regulations.
@H0kieJoe 5 ай бұрын
Yep!
@pushingdaisies4238 5 ай бұрын
It would be interesting to see that, but the implication of corruption is still pretty cynical.
@wulf67 5 ай бұрын
@@pushingdaisies4238 The government is more corrupt than your wildest and most cynical dreams. The U.S. exterminated 500 nations of native people, protected the institution of human slavery for 100 years, allowed Jim Crow for another 100 after that, interned Japanese-Americans, secretly overthrew a dozen democratic governments around the world, and dropped two nukes on civilian targets. It's not cynical to think that we might pass a law to enrich a lobbyist or two.
@peaceshalom3030 5 ай бұрын
Do you think we need to Keep government out of this, this will create new laws and taxes with higher insurance costs to shops and individuals seeking liability and disability insurances. Will OSHA rules shut us down if we don't comply.
@pushingdaisies4238 5 ай бұрын
I don't think it is unreasonable to ask for more safety in an inherently dangerous product. As far as insurance goes, I imagine a timeframe where you would get discounts for having AIM technology in your production shop. As the implementation becomes more ubiquitous then there could be a requirement to "tool up." But that's just the insurance company protecting themselves. The CPSC is really there to listen to professional opinions about products and safety and to discuss if, why, and how to implement changes to those things. I think it is important to have them, and it seems like they are having a legitimate discussion that will hopefully commit to progress while also taking into account the stakeholders and what impact the CPSC will have on the industry.
@Bunnyonabender 5 ай бұрын
I work full-time as a carpenter in the entertainment industry and despite productions requiring the "hot dog saw" in our shops we end up disabling it for all the laminates and other conductive materials we use. Even pressure treated has tripped it on us. The blade replacement, cartridge, and sometimes material loss costs start to add up faster.
@peaceshalom3030 5 ай бұрын
Do you think we need to Keep government out of this, this will create new laws and taxes with higher insurance costs to shops and individuals seeking liability and disability insurances. Will OSHA rules could shut us down if we don't comply.
@TheGreatChrisB 5 ай бұрын
Although a headache for sure, this is a matter of when will it backfire, and not if. Do something long enough and someone will lose a finger and since you disabled the safety feature their to protect you, the medical cost may very well fall totally on the worker and not the company.
@briannelson4122 5 ай бұрын
For sure! You would have to use only kiln dried lumber on your saw (sorry big box stores!) and would cause production delays if your material got wet in transport or something. The technology is already offered with the Saw Stop if they want it, forcing it on manufacturers would just hit the consumer in the wallet, basically footing the bill for the R & D required to bring this to market.
@scotthamilton407 5 ай бұрын
@@peaceshalom3030 Yes the government needs to keep out of this. This is One hundred percent Dr. Gass and TTS and corrupt bureaucrat/s trying to get even richer. It's all a load of crap because I would be more than willing to bet large sums of money that there are a hell of a lot less table saws in the U.S. today than there was even 20 years ago with all of the offshoring of furniture and cabinet production here in the U.S. Not to mention the large decline in the number of home hobbyists. Now I would say that their maybe more table saw accidents than in years past. Due to the difference of the average hobbyist of the past and todays.
@matthofnagel3992 5 ай бұрын
This is just like all the safety switches that make the user do contortions to use the tool, these will be useless at best and a threat at worst❤.
@ChrisBloom 4 ай бұрын
These rules should be implemented by laws passed by congress, not heads of bureaucratic agencies that aren't accountable to voters.
@EricRohlfs 4 ай бұрын
I watched those hearings on 2003. They were very interesting. In the end they would not make it a law because only one vendor had a patented solution until patents expired they would not mandate the change. Most injuries happen in professional workplace and in this case workers are forced to use employer supplied equipment. Everyone agrees worker safety in professional places is a good thing.
@Tunfeld 5 ай бұрын
This is a major blow. Which tool is next to get a safety upgrade? Unlikely it'll stop with just table saws.
@tektrixter 5 ай бұрын
Realistically, there are only a few ways to implement AIM and if that are allowed to stay restricted then it will almost eliminate competition. The US government can open a patent and allow others to use it if it is in the best interests of the people. If they want AIM technology on all table saws, then they need to remove the patent protections so all manufacturers can add it to their products.
@oldtop4682 5 ай бұрын
This is generally used for wartime, but has been used for other things in the past - see COVID and War Powers Act. Thing is, unlike COVID this affects a MUCH smaller number of people, so there will be litigation (possibly successful). Saw Stop has been pushing for this for years. Not saying it is based upon greed v good intentions, just that they have tried to push for this WHILE holding all the cards, and getting the government to enforce it. Seems like greed does play a role here.
@tonysheerness2427 5 ай бұрын
I do not understand why the saw can not distinguish between wood and hands and if it takes so many seconds for the blade to stop once electricity is cut and a brake applied then any hand with in those seconds of stopping should stop the saw. Safety devices have been on machines for decades so why are table saw so difficult? Laser beams, led sensors, heat sensors surely they can make saws safe with out the split second saw damaging technology of Sawstop.
@11211lcb 5 ай бұрын
15~20 years ago yes. No longer, there are several setups to protect the user from being cut these days. Bosch, Altendorf, and Felder all have their ways of accomplishing this, just not currently in the US for some like Bosch. Once manufacturers are forced to comply I do not think they will be turning down the opportunity to develop this time, or purchase a license agreement as they were offered 20 years ago before SawStop began manufacturing. Those manufacturers that turned SawStop down on the license agreement failed to see the obvious future. They are not doing so well these days. Woodcraft used to offer many different brands of TS's compared to today. Now they mostly sell SawStop.
@kingdomair2025 5 ай бұрын
It sure seems like the federal government just opening the patent would seriously discourage future innovation. Why develop the next big thing if the government will just decide it's so cool that everyone should have it for free?
@jgreenesq 5 ай бұрын
Seems like Sawstop is pushing this to keep making money.
@VicTesolinWoodworks 4 ай бұрын
Interesting video! Thanks for putting it together.
@jb4214 4 ай бұрын
Of all the tools in my shop,the one I have the most respect for /fear of is the radial arm saw. Though not as popular now as they were years ago,there are more ways to be injured with a radial arm saw than you could ever think of. If you have respect for your table saw about the worst injury you can have happen is having a bound up piece fly back at you. Keep your blades clean and sharp,and your fence square with the blade and table saws are generally safe.
@tgxwoodchuck9541 5 ай бұрын
Sawstop's patent should absolutely not be extended under any circumstances. They've had 20 years of Monopoly on the technology and that is enough.
@pinkyhotmessx69 5 ай бұрын
Yep
@larrystuder6378 4 ай бұрын
Originally patent rights were 14 years, and one renewal. So while their time should be limited, it would only be for 8 more years.
@BadSpock 4 ай бұрын
They cannot extend them but they can muddy the water with litigation regarding filing versus award dates and later patents. That's why it's important to get multiple companies including sawstop agree to RAND licensing terms to preserve a healthy market.
@johnseavey6622 4 ай бұрын
It's not a monopoly you didn't have to buy one if you didn't want to, free to buy a finger eater if you want.
@hamishadamson4628 4 ай бұрын
@@johnseavey6622It's a monopoly of the non-finger eaters.
@oliverbowyer6304 5 ай бұрын
A couple things to point out: -Sawstop's brake requires a grounded power source, so if the rule goes through, it will absolutely destroy the cordless table saw market until we figure out how to inplement this tech to battery operated saws. -When it comes to lisencing Sawstop AIM to other manufacturers, TTS probably won't have a choice but to lisence them as their cordless systainer saw and their CS 50 are gonna be pulled off the market, which will make a dent in their profits.
@spambot7110 4 ай бұрын
RE cordless saw: the saw detects skin contact by detecting a change in capacitance between the metal blade and some other electrode (in saw stop's case, ground). you can imagine the saw blade as one of the two plates in a classic "parallel plate" capacitor. when your (conductive) body touches the blade, the "plate" becomes much larger, causing the overall capacitance between the 2 plates to increase, and the safety circuit can detect this change by constantly charging and discharging the "capacitor" and measuring how long it takes. Since the saw stop plugs into the wall, it's convenient to use ground as the second plate in the capacitor, but that's not the only option. you can measure capacitance between any 2 conductive materials that aren't shorted together, so you could have your "ground" just be a pad on the circuit board, or a wire buried somewhere inside the case. those "build a game controller out of bananas" kits (yes that's a real thing look it up!) use this same principle, there's just a bit of metal on the PCB that it's using as its second electrode. capacitive touch sensing is the same technique used on touchscreen devices like phones, and those things manage to detect touch just fine whether or not they're plugged into the wall. arguably a smartphone has to solve a much harder problem than a cordless saw does, since it has to cycle through an entire grid of electrodes, and then process all those measurements to figure out exactly where on the screen was touched, whether there are multiple fingers touching the screen, etc., and do all that with electrodes that are buried under a layer of glass, and thin enough for the screen to shine through. the point is just that capacitive touch sensing is a ridiculously advanced, very mature technology, and it's currently used for a really wide range of applications; the specific use case of "touch detection on a cordless saw blade" is definitely new, it would probably have some unique challenges on account of being a new thing, but it's not demanding anything inherently new from the tech. so, technologically wouldn't be too hard, i imagine the patent lawyers would spend more hours on it than the engineers.
@kadmow 4 ай бұрын
- A Grounding line to the operator could solve this (making it idiot-proof is really hard in the construction industry).
@alamaralaa 4 ай бұрын
@@kadmow Well, that's the real trick, isn't it. You can never make anything idiot proof, because you can never over-estimate the ingenuity of an idiot...
@gravelydon7072 4 ай бұрын
@@alamaralaa And also mother nature abhors a vacuum. So if you get rid of one id10T, another will come along to replace it.
@AJClean713 4 ай бұрын
Being a Small Woodshop Business Owner... I'm worried that insurance companies would force us to have these in our shops and/or may not cover employee injuries that are not using the new technology. My first thought was that I need to buy 2 more cabinet saws immediately before they force this, but then thought about insurance and may want to see if I need to replace the ones I already have...
@nebskram3080 3 ай бұрын
so ur more worried about cost vs ur employees fingers?
@stphnalln 4 ай бұрын
Excellent explanation of this topic. Been woodworking for forty years, all with a delta contractor saw, never injured, so i know what I'm doing. But my plan has been to buy a saw with AIM technology (currently only Sawstop) when im ready to replace the ol' Delta. Higher cost, sure. For me its a simple question -- how much are my fingers worth?
@denrad 4 ай бұрын
Same here. 40 years, no serious accidents. Very safety conscious. Then it happened. Took off the front of my thumb. Happened faster than I can describe. I thought I was paying attention but I wasn't. Incredibly dangerous tool and I learned a lesson I thought I knew. My fingers are worth every bit of safety I can give them. I can never undo that moment no matter how much I wish I could. I can just never let it happen again.
@charlesslack8090 4 ай бұрын
THE PEOPLE SPEWING OUT THESE OBSERD INJURY FIGURES ARE FEEDING YOU B,,, S,,, DISGUISED AS SAFTY, WILL ALLOW SAW STOP TO MAKE MORE MONEY. I have worked for an architectural woodworking company for over fifty years. Employees averaged 20 to 25 per year. Table saw injurys over that time less than 5, amputation of hand or fingers = 0. Cutting a finger with anything = more than 100. Slipping on snow in the parking lot = more than 100. 50 years of injurys requiring serious medical attention (stitches) maybe 10. They are screwing with you, and trying to scare you into getting this BS passed into a law that will make them lots of money. The value of the 45 year old tablesaw in my garage just went way up! IT JUST WENT UP BY TEN DIGITS!!! 😊😊😊😊😊
@maximusmagni1 5 ай бұрын
There is zero chance this actually gets implemented before the SawStop patents fully expire. This will be held up in litigation at least until then. I agree this would $200-$300 to the cost of these saws in parts alone, but a SawStop license could easily add another $100-$200 on top of that. Europe hasn't even mandated this and they are bigger safety weenies than anyone.
@bmacaulay18 5 ай бұрын
They are not even allowed to have dado blades in EU. LOLOLOLOL
@DanisWerkstatt 5 ай бұрын
Dude, here in Germany there are even discussions about a helmet mandate for fu**ing bycicles. And you aren't allowed to sell self-built furniture if you are no officially trained craftsman 😅 Waaaay too much regulation in every aspect of our lives...
@jonsumisu9016 5 ай бұрын
Don't worry. As soon as the do-gooders here in the UK learn about this, we will have the same law. And our table saws aleady cost us $500. By the way, dado blades aren't actually banned over here. It's more to do with the saw not stopping quickly enough for our rules with them fitted. So, instead of the manufacturers fitting better braking on the saws, it's cheaper for them just to fit shorter arbours.@@bmacaulay18
@maximusmagni1 5 ай бұрын
@@DanisWerkstatt I think that law not allowing trained craftsman to sell their own furniture is more of a trade job protection issue. They don't want the tradesmen to go out of business.
@kastnerr 5 ай бұрын
Make it a frand patent like the ones Apple exploits all of the time.
@richards1929 5 ай бұрын
I can guarantee that not a single person on that committee has ever seen a table saw let alone used one 🤣
@Ktmfan450 4 ай бұрын
They're all old wealthy white guys 100% they are woodworkers in their spare time
@jewdd1989 4 ай бұрын
Exactly! Even if they are experts which I doubt idc government needs to stay the hell out of it!
@Ktmfan450 4 ай бұрын
A bunch of old white guys... Impossible
@knowsittobetrue8566 4 ай бұрын
Color me shocked that suits are making decisions about things they know nothing about.
@TheAnimeist 4 ай бұрын
These are the same statists that wanted to ban Onewheels. That would be like banning skateboards, or bicycles. And there's a ton more of skateboard and bicycles injuries than Onewheel injuries.
@3frogltd987 4 ай бұрын
Great episode Matt, thank you for your extensive research and preparation. You truely increased my respect for your dedication to educate and help all invoved in woodworking. Lots of interesting comments and points made. If there is a massive public safety need, I think there must be a legal path for the government to force SStp to offer a fair and affordable licensing package. Much like a war-act ruling where mfgs. can't inhibit access to critical design and technologies which are needed for the national good. Also for true safety why just focus on the blade, they should mandate Jessum style anti kickback guides on every saw.
@gmontie2010 4 ай бұрын
Underlying all of this I wonder if decision makers in the government believe that the use of dangerous equipment should be left the the "professionals" or the "experts" so as to bar individuals and small business from access. Maybe it means that only much larger corporations are considered accountable and therefore maybe only larger corporations should have access. Ultimately I think that the market should decide! Individuals should have access and government should keep their nose out of it. By the way I agree the HE does matter! I love your sweater/shirt that you were wearing in the video!
@annarn6540 5 ай бұрын
I worked in an ER almost all of my working life and of course I’ve seen quite a few devastating table saw injuries. Some that changed livelihoods and others that redirected passions and hobbies. Mangled hands/fingers, blindness and significant kickback injuries . When it comes to table saws you can’t be too careful.
@larryrichardson5167 5 ай бұрын
So, SawStop should do the right thing and release the patent rights, right ?
@pinkyhotmessx69 5 ай бұрын
We're the specifically tablesaw injuries
@AlChemicalLife 5 ай бұрын
@larryrichardson5167 I think so , if they were in it to keep people safe they would work out an either offer the technology as open source or offer a fair price for it. Stop suing the other companies who come out with a similar technology.
@annarn6540 5 ай бұрын
@@pinkyhotmessx69 Yes. A woman permanently lost vision in an eye when a nail head shot through the air piercing her globe. Others were mostly fingertip injuries but there were also significant hand injuries with muscle, tendon bone involvement. Some patients do well but others lose a lot of function. These included musicians (piano and guitar players) and my dad who I thought had just stopped by to say hi but when I saw blood dripping from the bath towel I knew it was something else.
@annarn6540 5 ай бұрын
@@pinkyhotmessx69 I’ve got some good nail gun stories too. And there’s the drunk guy who used a kitchen knife on Mr Happy.
@ChipLinck 4 ай бұрын
My number one question is of those 65K+ amputations, how many were because of blatant stupidity? Anyone can be reasonably safe, and still get injured, but we all know that there are many people who just don't take proper precautions for any number of reasons. While some injuries can occur even when the user is careful, we don't need laws because some people can't be bothered to be careful. This is a waste of our taxes. I want my money back. I have no issue with forcing companies to be reasonably safe in their designs. I do have a problem with forcing companies to add nanny features that are designed to keep people from getting Darwin awards. I'm glad I already have a cabinet saw. Also, used saw market will go way up.
@agnew82 4 ай бұрын
excellent video, thanks!
@Detstorm 5 ай бұрын
I really hope this agreement somehow allows Bosch to implement the Reaxx technology again, I'm looking forward to purchasing that over anything from SawStop.
@kaasmeester5903 5 ай бұрын
I hope so too. That would mean the we would FINALLY get access to this technology here in Europe. The only table saw sold here that has this safety feature is the Festool TKS80, a job site table saw that starts at €2000 (adding all the fence and runout options will run over €3500!). It has a proprietary fence system that is hot garbage according to reviewers, and precludes the use of popular 3rd party or homebrew fences and sleds.
@jerrysmigiel7998 4 ай бұрын
@@kaasmeester5903 I could be wrong but if I recall the patent dispute settlement stated Bosch would not sell their version in America. I thought they could still sell it in Europe. I also recall the two technologies were different. The only similarity was that the blade would stop if touched. Bosch had an interesting mechanism. It didn't destroy the blade and it didn't require a 'cartridge' to reset it. Old info and my memory might not be as clear.
@kaasmeester5903 4 ай бұрын
@@jerrysmigiel7998 Bosch’s system was called Reaxx. I’ve never seen one in Europe.
@davidyoung1610 4 ай бұрын
Agreed. The way SawStop tried (and continues to) use the legal system to strong arm other manufacturers shows that their concern for the users’ safety takes a back seat. Look at their lawsuit with Bosch.
@rightangledesign 4 ай бұрын
As an owner/user of a Bosch Reaxx, I still think it's superior to the sawstop. Precisely because it doesn't damage the blade and you can keep working after rotating or replacing the safety system's explosive cartridge (and maybe putting on a fresh pair of underwear...). It works similarly to how an automotive airbag works except that the explosion drives a piston that pulles the blade downwards in a split second. Each cartridge has 2 "shots" and after 25 times of the system triggering Bosch requires you to have the saw inspected/reset by a licensed technician/repair facility. Some people might balk or object to this, but given the violence forces at work when the system triggers (you're never expecting it and the bang scares the crap out of you!!), I really do understand this requirement. Also: if you, your employees, or anyone you are teaching/supervising are using a table saw responsibly in the first place, you're unlikely to ever reach 25 occurrences so this shouldn't really be a problem). The detection works (as far as I understand, so don't quote me...) like the capacitative technology on touch screens. So, for cuts in conductive materials like wet/moist lumber or aluminum, you can override/deactivate the REAXX safety system with a separate button that you have to press at the same time as you pull up the saw's paddle-switch.
@warrenbridges4095 5 ай бұрын
Times have changed since I first learned woodworking many years ago. I've been in construction for over 30 years and completely understand how safety has evolved, mainly for the better, still have all my fingers & toes.. Just 5 years ago I decided to start doing custom furniture in my backyard so guess I better keep my DeWalt jobsite table saw in tip top shape to avoid needing to purchase one with the new technology.
@josephcernansky1794 5 ай бұрын
I would STRIP that new fangled gadget off any new saw I purchase
@peaceshalom3030 5 ай бұрын
Do you think we need to Keep government out of this, this will create new laws and taxes with higher insurance costs to shops and individuals seeking liability and disability insurances. Will OSHA rules shut us down if we don't comply.
@woodworkingandepoxy643 5 ай бұрын
@@peaceshalom3030I think if Texas is successful they'll figure out their place real quick. Mandating what people do and don't do is not their job
@brandonhoffman4712 5 ай бұрын
Personally, I'll be embracing the change when I make my next purchase. With competition, the costs shouldn't get too crazy. A sawstop cartridge retails for 99 dollars, which is like 30 bucks wholesale, for a niche product in an industry. With market wide adoption and competition, the price can only go down. These saws should actually reduce insurance rates due to added saftey. Though I could see insurance going up for those that don't have these saws a few years after them becoming the standard. And yes, it is the governments job to tell its subjects what they can and can not do when it comes to the publics saftey (refference the seat belt in cars). An American belongs to the United states of America. America is a sovereign nation. An American is a subject of America. And as such beholden to its whims.
@un7ucky 5 ай бұрын
@@josephcernansky1794 if it comes on it anyways, you might as well use it until you trigger the blade stopper. the modern ones are pretty hard to set off by mistake
@stevenleonard7219 4 ай бұрын
The insurance companies motivation is not to lower the cost of insurance to the policy holders but rather to reduce or mitigate how much they have to pay out. If it reduces the costs to the policy holders that is a secondary bonus.
@davidolszeski3982 4 ай бұрын
This is not true for health insurance. By law, they’re only allowed to keep a small percentage of premiums for overhead, salaries, and profits. The only way they can make more money is to pay out more claims. Keep the overhead down by paying out fewer claims at larger amounts. There’s a direct incentive to drive up costs for health services.
@BLKMGK4 4 ай бұрын
Neighbor who's a carpenter has been home for a few weeks I noticed, his truck hasn't moved. Chatted with him today - he cut off the tip of his thumb and has been off like 6 week with more to go. 40 years in the trade and previously he only had lost a little chunk off his other thumb - this time a significant chunk from the other hand. He says that the guards don't allow for many cuts so the first thing they do is throw them away. His boss is now buying saw stop equipment!
@histguy101 3 ай бұрын
It's not inevitable that you will have an injury. It's like car accidents being much more likely near your home, as you're driving on muscle memory in your own territory and aren't paying attention like you would elsewhere. When you use a table saw every day, you might be just as complacent going through the motions without thinking about it. The vast majority of carpenters and woodworkers who use a table saw regularly don't experience an injury
@BLKMGK4 3 ай бұрын
@@histguy101 True, but it seems that maybe some sort of seatbelt might reduce injuries? I’m not sure sawstop is the answer but it would’ve saved my neighbor from being maimed.
@BLKMGK4 3 ай бұрын
@@histguy101 Nope, it's not inevitable. My neighbor has used his over 20 years with just two accidents and this was the worst. for a few bucks though he wouldn't be maimed and his company is now making sure it won't happen to anyone else. I think SawStop shouldn't have the only solution, we'll see.
@histguy101 3 ай бұрын
@@BLKMGK4 I think it would need to be a different method than the exploding cartridge that Sawstop uses. Sawstop is great for a shop setting for a woodworker or cabinet maker, but a job site saw is used for all sorts of materials that a sawstop cannot cut, such as wet treated lumber, composite decking, aluminum siding, soffit, flashing, even vinyl, etc. If the Sawstop exploding cartridge was installed on all table saws, contractors would be forced to switch to other methods to cut such things. On the other hand, table saws, circular saws, and miter saws have gotten a lot safer in the last couple years. They now almost all have a soft start and brake now. Sawstop will stop instantly, but a good brake will still stop the blade in about 1 second.
@BLKMGK4 3 ай бұрын
@@histguy101 I agree that the stop using a cartridge is probably not best, I've heard they can false too. His boss bought a couple of those SawStop saws but I don't know yet how well they work as he's still not able to go back to the job :( Hopefully something better can be found but a 1 second stop is probably too slow for many injuries. He said he only felt a quick flash of pain and his thumb was a mess :(
@philip1522 5 ай бұрын
Years ago I started with a circular saw plunged through a sheet of 1/4 ply, flipped upside down with the trigger taped on. I honestly think injuries will go up as a result of this. Make no mistake - this is about money not safety.
@thomasjoseph676 5 ай бұрын
Great point! People will resort to MORE dangerous solutions when the gov't's first order (typical leftist/control freak thinking) ignores the second order effects.
@daveb3910 4 ай бұрын
Geez, at least use 1/2! 1/4 ply I can break in half by leaning on it
@erichays3393 5 ай бұрын
I lost the tip of my thumb while using a table back in'97. It was an old cabinet saw with zero safety features. I got lazy while ripping old barn wood down, I kept the blade high so I didn't have to constantly move it up/down. The board hit a nail that I had missed and my thumb was history! I'd be interested in learning if the numbers of injuries/missing digits were actually all table saws, or are the adding accidents from shop smith's, band saws, scroll saws, etc. I'd guess that they're all included which would make table saws not as dangerous as they indicate. Even if their numbers are correct, I'd guess, 90%+ of accidents were user error and not the saws fault. I'd love to have a Saw Stop or something similar because the old saying, it's not if, but when, but not in my budget right now. Kinda feel like this is just another government overreach and shouldn't happen.
@pinkyhotmessx69 5 ай бұрын
Yep I'm with you on those numbers. Last year my son lost a fingern part of his hand on a chop saw. I lost the tip of my finger in a stick blender lol don't ask. I can guarantee those are blade or tool injuries not just tablesaw. Ive seen this in othere areas of gov. They never check facts or sources of lobbiests that line their pockets. In this case saw stop. We need to challenge this bs anywhere possible and call 5heir bluff.
@erichays3393 5 ай бұрын
@pinkyhotmessx69 I've done and seen some sketchy stuff, and have heard, "hold my beer", hundreds of times!!! Of all the accidents/injuries I've seen, almost all could have been avoided!!! Probably only a couple of times in 35 years, where it was a tool issue. I have nothing against safety, but we definitely need to be better at taking responsibility for our actions and not allowing the government to have control!
@goldwinger5434 4 ай бұрын
The greatest impact will on the DIY guy. A business can pass it on to the consumer but the guy who wants to build a playset for his kids will be deterred from buying tools.
@FirstLastOne 4 ай бұрын
Okay, your video is on point and after 4 minutes I have seen through to the end game. It all about "you didn't listen to me so now I'm going to make you all pay and kiss the ring or you'll go out of business". Frankly, table saws, mitre saws, joiners, chainsaws and other serious power tools don't need more safety thrown at them, they need to be respected and only used by people that respect them for what they are and can do to you if you F around. Where is it gonna stop? Everything can seriously injure you to some degree but yet we keep dumbing it down so a person with no care in the world can use it. That's just not fair to the rest of us that use our brains. What's next, you can't reprimand someone when you stop them from injuring or killing themselves because you might hurt their feelings? Oh wait, that's already happening now. The world is becoming stupider and softer as we race to the bottom where everything will end up being wrapped in eco-friendly, organic, free range, non scented, bubble wrap to prevent us from getting a boo boo. If I were the CEO of Band-Aid, I'd be getting my legal team ready to sue the ever living F@%K out of every whiny and stupid person out there.
@tomhargreaves8820 5 ай бұрын
Thank you for putting in the time and effort to produce this video, a LOT of time and effort, not only in the research, but in putting the presentation itself together. I thought it was a nice idea to coil the cord on the saw to show clearly that it was unplugged.
@LukeHoersten 5 ай бұрын
Awesome video! Thanks for taking the time to investigate, provide your perspective, and also talk to an expert. Looks like an enormous amount of work went into this and as a table saw user it’s definitely top of mind for me.
@peaceshalom3030 5 ай бұрын
Do you think we need to Keep government out of this, this will create new laws and taxes with higher insurance costs to shops and individuals seeking liability and disability insurances. Will OSHA rules shut us down if we don't comply.
@chaecoco2 4 ай бұрын
I have a SawStop in my shop. I have inadvertently tripped the brake twice over the years. It is amazing how much hidden metal is lodged in wood. So either you go over each board religiously with a metal scanner or use the manual over-ride. Since the former is time consuming I might suspect that those using contractor saws on jobsite will do the latter, unless they remove that option completely. To be honest, I am much more nervous using my bandsaw than table saw. A bandsaw could remove many fingers in an instant. But bandsaws are probably not as common on construction sites as a table saw.
@HRConsultant_Jeff 4 ай бұрын
One other point to note: Table saws can last 50 years or more so the existing saws could be around for a very long time because you can't develop an aftermarket device that drops the blade, it is a design problem. Yard sale saws will be around for a long time. I still see saws that are 40 or more years old all the time at estate sales.
@scottelias7188 5 ай бұрын
My first thought is how many accidents this will cause from the beginner who can’t afford the newer saws using unsafe methods and techniques to save money.
@Ktmfan450 4 ай бұрын
How many techniques are there?
@scottelias7188 4 ай бұрын
Think of all the portable saws that could be used in the unsafe manner and put on sawhorses or tables or shelving. By design is just so much more secure by any tablesaw even the cheap ones. If you make it too expensive to do it the right way, there’s no limit to the stupidity of mankind to get it done anyway with the wrong tools and equipment. Me, for the difference in price I would just go for a basic panel saw, or a large format CNC . Yes, I realize that table saws are used for a lot more than sheet goods but that and small parts that you shouldn’t have your fingers near the blade anyway that’s where most of the accidents happen.. And then you’re pushing people towards bandsaw with no blade protection for small parts.
@Jason-hd3rh 5 ай бұрын
I really appreciate your deep dive and opinion on the topic. It was refreshing to see someone actually dive down and share the source material and key parts. In a world where everything is sound-bite hooks -- being thorough on the topic was refreshing. Thanks!
@peaceshalom3030 5 ай бұрын
Do you think we need to Keep government out of this, this will create new laws and taxes with higher insurance costs to shops and individuals seeking liability and disability insurances. Will OSHA rules shut us down if we don't comply.
@donald6427 4 ай бұрын
Sort of like regulating a speed limit or vehicle belt buckles
@andrewgordon7194 4 ай бұрын
Probably the simplest solution to table saw safety would be to reinstall the riving knife and using a blade guard.
@KillerSpud 5 ай бұрын
They should follow the automotive world where safety patents can only last a few years at most.
@travisedwards9983 5 ай бұрын
Would be little to no reason to spend the money to develop such things if then someone can simply steal it by the time you have broken even in profit.
@AsianAttack 5 ай бұрын
@@travisedwards9983if safety is required, then the reward is in licensing the safety tech, or creating patent pools where competitors cross-license
@addammadd 5 ай бұрын
Jeez, it’s almost like you guys are pointing out the flaw of leaving the development of necessary technology, universally beneficial, to the whims of profit motive.
@AsianAttack 5 ай бұрын
if developing a safer product can net you more money, what's wrong with that? auto manufacturers resisted safety regulation for DECADES, and now they market the safety of their cars!
@dpressnall 5 ай бұрын
Until you start receiving a safety recall notice every other month, requiring you to send your table saw off to get fixed. I don't think the automotive industry is a good model to follow. The worst part about all of this is the fact that this decision will ultimately be made by people who have never been around a table saw in their life.
@kennethbosley1915 5 ай бұрын
As a patent holder I am well acquainted with the patent laws and every US Patent has a rider built in stating that the patent may be used by the US Government or as a public safety issue. The government can (after litigation) require a patent to be licensed for what the court determines to be a fair and reasonable fee, but that can take time.
@stevesether 5 ай бұрын
The patents that Sawstop holds started expiring in 2021, and they put out their first product in 2004. I don't think the patents are a major issue.
@112428 4 ай бұрын
@stevesether With Sawstop, they are an issue. The inventor was a patent attorney out for a payday, not safety. Multiple manufacturers have said he was asking for a license fee in many cases equal to their entire selling price in the early days. After that didn't work, he started lobbying the government to mandate his patented technology. When that didn't work, he started Sawstop. For as simple of a mechanism as Sawstop uses (conductivity detected on the blade trips a brake), Sawstop has literally hundreds of patents on every conceivable method of stopping the blade. They've used every legal trick in the book to extend each of those patents for as long as possible. Bosche's saw used completely different technology that didn't infringe any Sawstop patents but they still pulled out of the market because proving that in court would've been more expensive and eliminated any profits.
@stevesether 4 ай бұрын
@@112428 When patents expire, that's it. No more patent rights. Also, patents don't cover "obvious inventions". The patent office is notorious for issuing patents that never should have been issued. Amazons "one click patent" is but one example. The other thing is, patents are like munitions. You arm yourself against attack with other patents.
@AereForst 4 ай бұрын
Very informative, thanks. I’d hate to pay more but looking at this socially, it’s a no brainer.
@clamboni9 4 ай бұрын
Time to start looking for deals on older saws that are known to be good so you can resell them if this goes into effect.
@nickbrutanna9973 4 ай бұрын
So, they're basically mandating all saws have Sawstop equivalent technology, which is patently ridiculous in terms of expense. It will all but destroy all existing low-cost saws, will jack the price of used saws insanely, and, much more dangerously -- *lead to people building their own table saws* -- this is really not very difficult to do -- anyone even remotely handy can do it -- but is certain to exclude any number of reasonably priced safety features already standard on existing saws. Yet another example of our nanny-state government doing things it has zero business doing.
@grindersandgears3445 4 ай бұрын
Just remember how they screwed up something as simple as gas cans. with their "help".
@mychalevenson7710 5 ай бұрын
If this goes through (which I doublt), I think we'll find that this tech isn't as expensive as we think it is. SawStop is taking advantage of their patent window.
@wolfe2118 4 ай бұрын
what he said... Just like new car tech, once others start doing it somehow it magically becomes inexpensive.
@michealarwood7488 4 ай бұрын
@@wolfe2118it's not magic it's basic economics
@drstefankrank 4 ай бұрын
If entry level saws will get too expensive, many people will buy even unsafer older saws from various marketplaces which often lack simple things like riving knifes or blade guards. Some other may get creative and build their own with upside down mounted track saws. A safety feature is pretty much welcomed, but it needs to be very affordable for beginner. They can put it better versions in more expensive saws.
@GeeTrieste 3 ай бұрын
Maybe a partial solution might be an included injury insurance policy for each table saw sold. It would cost something, but it would be less than the cost of the mandatory upgrade.
@DeVandali 5 ай бұрын
Thank you for putting together a highly informative and considered perspective on this topic. It is certainly giving me a new mindset about my approach to table saws.
@deancollins1371 5 ай бұрын
Just after the video discussed implementing the rule in 30 days to 6 months, I gave it some quick thought based on my retiring from a career as an aerospace mechanical designer and came up with reasonable time frame of 3 years. Once the rule is mandated, a manufacturer will have initial meetings on the design followed by product detail design. Tooling design for molds and product handling won't start until a certain amount of design maturity is reached. Cutting chips for the tools and any product detail parts won't happen until the designs are formally released. So, 3 years is comfortable. 1 year would be very rushed. A rule implementation of less than a year will mean that manufacturers discontinue sales until they can redesign their saws.
@peaceshalom3030 5 ай бұрын
Do you think we need to Keep government out of this, this will create new laws and taxes with higher insurance costs to shops and individuals seeking liability and disability insurances. Will OSHA rules could shut us down if we don't comply.
@pinkyhotmessx69 5 ай бұрын
Yep n it will cause a shortage meaning all 9f us with a tablesaw to sell are go8ng to be able to sell them at what we paid for them if not more.
@brianhawes3115 4 ай бұрын
Wow my old table saw is gonna go up in price, glad I saw this video before I sell it
@douglashaner6802 4 ай бұрын
I actually see both sides. I wont get rid of my old craftsman but can appreciate the safety of a sawstop or clone. I assume the cost will eventually stabilize once they are in every new saw.
@richragan4810 5 ай бұрын
Thnks for spending all this time to get us up to date Matt. Fct is last year I cut part of my index finger off on my table saw. Compared to many injuries it was minor BUT a HUGE Eys opener. I sold that table saw in less than a week and bought a Sw Stop PCS Caninet saw. That accident changed the was I run my woodworking business. Saw Stop as you not only provides that extra measure of saftey but they had made it so easy to remove and replace the blade guard. Now unless I'm using the Dado set or my sled the gurd is ALWAY on. God bless you matt and thanks again for all you do for us. I appreciate your ministry.
@elktrip2000 5 ай бұрын
The only issue I can see with that based off of what they’re saying a new system will be required for dado blades as well. Does saw stop have a system for dados?
@mongocrock 5 ай бұрын
@elktrip2000 Yes they have dado blade stopping cartridges
@terrydanks 5 ай бұрын
@@elktrip2000 Yes. You do have to use a different cartridge for a dado blade though.
@richragan4810 5 ай бұрын
The Dado brake cartridge is a separate purchase when you get the saw. It is very easy to install and then replace the standard blade brake cartridge. Takes maybe a minute or so. I've used it many times.
@iainarthur7713 5 ай бұрын
@@richragan4810 Just wait for that to be 'too complex' and so 'dangerous' for you to do. Has to go to the manf only. Just $100 charge plus the blade pack, if you've signed up to the 'special deal'....;)
@H0kieJoe 4 ай бұрын
BTW, 731 Woodworks, I'm glad you posted this video. SawStop convinced me to invest in a new Powermatic tablesaw with the ArmorGlide top!
@jimsens805 3 ай бұрын
If it were left up to companies ... we would all be working 7/12 and living in company towns and perpeturally in debt to them. Not against mandating safety. Companies won't do it.
@sphinxios 4 ай бұрын
For how long is that protection going to work and be supported, and how easy is it going to be bypassed, will the electronics be built to last or not and will it be built for tough use.
@kidsythe 5 ай бұрын
they are trying to price you out of making your own. same with vinger reduction, and food regulations where they have done everything possible to stop you from food self sufficiency.
@mrfixit6693 5 ай бұрын
The technologies will only be as good as those users who do not disable them. As your lawyer friend stated, he watches many videos of folks with the blade guards and such taken off of them. I would question how many of the injured people in their studies did the same. They'll start requiring air bags on hammers next...;)
@mikegraziano1562 4 ай бұрын
A few things you didn't mention, a big company like Milwaukee could just buy out the patents & company. Another idea is just have an automatic feed and keep the hands away altogether. Good video!
@mscot 4 ай бұрын
The company that owns Festool also owns Sawstop. TTS Tooltechnic Systems Holding AG. Milwaukee isn't buying them.
@mtbkmaniac1 4 ай бұрын
When I got my table saw, I made sure to watch every 4 fingered teacher and their how to operate a table saw safely. With that said, I found that there were some cutting operations that you could not use the supplied safely attachments. I had to make various fixtures to hold work that would otherwise be unsafe. The pushing stick is your way of keeping your fingers out of the working area.
@chrisnash2154 5 ай бұрын
I currently have a Skilsaw. Had it for years and it works great. Will probably get a nice, used high end cabinet saw was one comes up in an estate sale.
@jasonwhitaker2726 5 ай бұрын
Great video! Very thorough and informative!!! also, noticing how many of the commenters clearly did not watch the entire video and listen to what the actual lawyer had to say/explain.
@731Woodworks 5 ай бұрын
Glad you enjoyed it!
@johnnyfaber9955 4 ай бұрын
Government- "We're here to help." Me- "Honey?.....Have you seen my wallet?"
@williambranham6249 Ай бұрын
I hope the CPSC addresses the consumer product:the bagel holder used to slice bagels. . The most common accident in the emergency room on Sat and Sun morning is the cut finger that occurs in the kitchen. We need a sensor built into the bagel holder.
@bagofmostlywater 5 ай бұрын
Great video, thanks for doing the research and sharing it with us.
@chriskasper7529 4 ай бұрын
We saw what the government did to the gas can!!
@jewdd1989 4 ай бұрын
Best comment! And look what’s happening to those up north! Government needs to stay the hell out of this including Gass
@WayneTheSeine 4 ай бұрын
Ha ha..... good point. I can't tell you how many gas cans I have given away until I found No-Spill. They work.
@copernicus633 4 ай бұрын
I’ve never gotten a gas can to work, without removing the idiotic safety device.
@WayneTheSeine 4 ай бұрын
@@copernicus633 Bite the bullet and buy a "No-Spill" they are awesome.
@davidtaylor4053 4 ай бұрын
Washing machines.
@HRConsultant_Jeff 4 ай бұрын
Also not calculated is the loss of productivity because you have to have another replacement switch on hand to replace the used one once a person triggers the safety item. So the saw is useless until it is repaired. Lost productivity.
@warlockcommandcenter 4 ай бұрын
Another factor will be requiring other patterns, the holder could require the licensee to include with the tech licensing agreement.
@ajcampbellconstruction6504 4 ай бұрын
My grandfather and grandfather were carpenters, my father is an avid advanced woodworker and I do woodworking - never had an accident. Although I was taught to have a good well made tablesaw. Was taught how to feed the material into the saw. What type of blade to use and when. How and when to use a push stick. I run a unisaw from the early 90’s and my dad’s unisaw is from the 40’s. I’m all for the safety but the sawstop having the patent and the government saying every saw needs it is well creating a monopoly - just another way of using “safety” as a means of control - never though my old table saw would become political pawn……
@marklaplante8675 5 ай бұрын
I'm sure Sawstop would love to see other table-saw manufacturer's have to increase the cost of their saws. Nothing like getting the Government to give your company (which conveniently owns a patent on probably the best safety feature) a way to force competition out of business.
@bmacaulay18 5 ай бұрын
You can be guaranteed they bought/are buying people off on the CSPC.
@usablellc6735 5 ай бұрын
That's just paranoia. You need evidence, not conspiracy theories. @@bmacaulay18
@shadvan9494 5 ай бұрын
The guy that invented the SawStop tech, tried to license it to all the saw manufactures. and they all declined. the guy that invented the tech deserves to be compensate for his invention. he only started SawStop after the other companies declined to license his technologies. so, I really don't feel back for the other companies. they chose profits over safety. sawstop was not a competitor until they all declined to license his tech.
@deilapakserrion9927 5 ай бұрын
@@shadvan9494 while you are correct about that but what was the cost of licensing it? and look at how many different patents he and sawstop now own basically preventing anyone else from moving into the market and also wanting to extend the patents rights another 20 years.
@bmacaulay18 5 ай бұрын
@@shadvan9494 They all declined because cost and fear of litigation for not putting it on all models. The patents are nearly at the point of being expired. This all of a sudden coming to the CSPC for new rulings along with attempt to extend the patents stinks of bribery and corruption. Free markets need to be free. If someone doesn't want to buy a sawstop they shouldn't have to. I personally like the Laguna Fusion F2 and for the money I would not buy a sawstop. We don't need government deciding what you can and can not buy.
@evancampbell7048 4 ай бұрын
One would hope that if such a rule goes through, that the Supreme Court, or whatever ruling body is responsible for extending those patents would side with public safety and deny extension.
@justinrehms4530 4 ай бұрын
I’d like to know how many injuries were from people took the safety features off the saw and also how close a cut were they trying to do.
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