I was a baseball nerd growing up and read all sorts of rule books and almanacs so I've known the 4th out rule since I was a kid. I saw it happen live when I was 10 in my dad's softball league where the run counted. So when I was playing softball years ago our short fielder came up with an out of nowhere diving catch while bases loaded no out and we pulled off a triple play, I immediately scooped up the ball off the mound and yelled to the ump I was touching 3rd so he wouldn't stop the play as we were walking off and I stepped on the bag and the ump called an out for the quadruple play.

Just step on the bag as the third out instead of tagging the trail runner.

The "fourth out" play is discussed in every pre-season umpiring clinic I have ever attended. Pre-season clinics for coaches also commonly make the point. That people get confused about it may be understandable, but not excusable.

To me, the worst rule is the one where a ghost runner is put on 2nd base to start every extra inning.

Making sure I have this straight. 1) If fielder steps on 3rd before tag --> inning over, no run scored 2) If fielder tags runner first --> run counts unless the fielding team formally appeals the runner leaving early before walking off the field. Someone other than Angel Hernandez please confirm.

Appealing for outs is sooo cricket

I learned about that rule from a scene in the baseball novel "The Greatest Slump Of All Time." Runners on first and third, one out, a slow guy on third, a routine fly ball to just short of the warning track in left field. Guy on third tags up, but leaves before the ball is caught, trying to make up for being slow by leaving early. The defense sees it. The pitcher is about to throw to third for the appeal when the guy on first -- a very fast runner -- breaks for second... and falls down. The pitched races over and tags him for the third out... but since the appeal was never completed, the run COUNTS. The defensive team doesn't realize it until after they've headed off the field and crossed the foul lines.

MLB rule 5.09 (C): Appeal plays may require an umpire to recognize an apparent “fourth out.” If the third out is made during a play in which an appeal play is sustained on another runner, the appeal play decision takes precedence in determining the out. If there is more than one appeal during a play that ends a half-inning, the defense may elect to take the out that gives it the advantage. For the purpose of this rule, the defensive team has “left the field” when the pitcher and all infielders have left fair territory on their way to the bench or Clubhouse.

3:16 Lol someone should tell the devs of MLB The Show. 😂 They're screwing me out of countless runs every game 😂

The movie I want to see made is the 1908 Fred Merkle game. Complete with Giants first base coach Joe McGinnity stealing the baseball from outfielder Solly Hofman's errant throw and throwing it into the stands, the Cubs fighting with the fans to get the ball back and allegedly throwing the same ball back to second for second baseman Johnny Evers to step on the base force out Merkle, with umpire Hank O'Day standing there the whole time and calling Merkle out.

I umpired for 30 years. The need for a fourth out happened four times. Not once did a team know what to do to stop a run from scoring.

When I was a teen in the mid-1970s, my dad came home from work one day and asked me if I'd ever heard of the "fourth out appeal play." I said no, so he went on to explain it. I imagine one of the other guys at work at told him about it. It makes sense to me and I don't find anything bad about it. It's just another reason why I love baseball!

The trick to this is simply always tag the base the runner who scored started from. He cant score if you tag his base.

This is why you force the lead runner

This happened to my highschool team. luckily coach was a rules junkie and made everyone stay on the field

At the end of the day it's the result of two other rules. I actually like that you can appeal the runner leaving before the catch, and in this narrow case it's more about the rule that for non-force plays you have to get the out before anyone crosses the plate or the run counts, and the easy solution, is to not make it the forth out. Go tag third base for the third out, or appeal for the fourth out. And the balk rule is way, way worse.

This 4th out rule is explained very well in the book “ the umpire strikes back” by Ron Luciano.

I understand this rule about as well as when balk is balk and when it is not.

There is a caveat.. yes the run counts.. and the field should have when he stepped on the base also made a verbal appeal that the other runner left early... thus becoming what we call the advantageous 4th out...He touched it.. he just has to tell the ump that he is ALSO appealing that leave early... that's where he goofed.

The worst rule in baseball is the elimination of the shift, but that is a topic for another video.

What I would find interesting is the origin of that rule. Have you researched that?

What makes the Nationals / Pirates play even more insane is that Nats third baseman Ehire Adrianza clearly STEPS ON THIRD with the ball in his glove. Had Adrianza NOT tagged Hoy Jun Park (the Pirates runner who had left second and ran to third on the line drive), then the runner who was on third at the start of the play, Jack Suwinski, would have been doubled-off to end the inning. Is THAT what the umpires think? But in this case, because Adrianza tagged Park less than a second BEFORE stepping on third, are they saying the rules consider the inning over at the very instant that Park is TAGGED out and only an appeal play to third can void the run? EDIT: In a post-game interview, Nats manager Davey Martinez (a KZfaq video entitled "Davey Martinez on controversial call in the fifth inning") says that third base umpire Jeremie Rehak told him that he didn't see Adrianza step on third. Martinez added that the umpire's ignorance did not qualify for a video replay review. Anyone want to bet that if the Yankees were about to lose Game 7 of the World Series in the bottom of the 9th in this fashion that the Commish and replay officials would step in and reverse the run? This isn't the first time that a third base umpire wasn't paying attention. Check out the KZfaq "2009 ALCS Game 4: Yankees @ Angels" and go to the 11:40 mark. Two Yankees not standing on a base were clearly TAGGED out. But, hey, it's the Yankees. So only one out counts. And that wasn't the only bad call in the game. One of worst umpired playoff games I've seen.

The simple solution is to always double off the runner that crossed the plate by throwing to Third Base, not Second or First. If he did not tag up, he's out and the inning ends without his run counting. He's even less likely to be able to retag home and get back, because he is heading for the dugout too.

He also stepped on the bag, that was the '4th out' and run should not have scored.

Its an easy rule to understand and its there to actually stop the run from scoring. Keep resding. You simply have to knkw what you are doing if you are a coach or a player.

I noticed you have included some long ago Astros Phillies footage that you didn't comment on. But this jogged my memory. I remember reading an account of the 1980 NLCS (when Houston was still in the NL) in which it was said there was a play that led, or could have led, to 4 outs in an inning. Is the footage in this video that play and another example of this rule?

The worst rule in baseball is the ghost Runner rule and extra innings. This isn’t Little League. The most complicated rule is the infield fly rule. I would argue significantly more complicated than this.

What's weird about this is that the umpires would even know to award the run.

To elaborate, runners can "give themselves up" by, for example, turning away from their intended base and running to the dugout. Innings can be given up as in this example. The defensive team chose the early third out over the correct appeal to the bag, they gave up the inning instead of erasing the run.

The run would not count if the 3rd out was by forceout but nobody who was on base was forced out, they were out on appeal. The runner at first on a live ball appeal. If the defense recognizes that the runner from 3rd also did not tag, then they need to make a dead ball appeal before leaving the field to erase the run.

No, you know the worst thing in baseball? You know those tall yellow poles where the baseline extensions hit the wall? The foul poles, you say? THEY ARE IN FAIR, why you call them foul poles???

I don't know about this being the "worst" rule, but it's a relatively easy one to coach. Always prioritize the lead runner. If there's a runner on third, get him if possible. If you must get another runner for the third out, then always throw to third and appeal. Then you will never fall victim to this situation. For the record, I think the worst rule in baseball is giving all runners three bases when the catcher touches a dropped pitch with his mask.

does this by extension mean if the defense never puts you out you just don't have to tag up???

The best way I can see to make sure the run doesn’t count is to leave the runner on third, have the pitcher put the ball in play again and then throw to third. The baseman then touches the base not the runner on third, to make the scoring runner the last out.

2:00 In cricket (baseball’s forefather), ALL outs need to be appealed.

The thing that's confusing about this rule is that doubling up a runner is not considered a "force out" when literally is a "force out".

I think you said that the fourth out WILL be allowed (so that the runner who crossed the plate would be out and no run scored) if before leaving the field the defending team did an appeal play at third base against the runner who left third base, even if the defense tagged another runner out at third base for the third out. But I saw the third basement step on third base after tagging the other runner out. Why doesn’t stepping on third base provide a valid fourth out against the runner who left third base just as well as doing the appeal later does give a valid fourth out? In both cases the (fourth) out was made after the runner crossed the plate, so why does the appeal apply retroactively but stepping on third base earlier does not?

Did you know that back when Babe Ruth played, this is actually 100 percent true, when you hit a "Ground Rule Double" they counted them as HOME RUNS!!!!!?????

I don't know why the forth out isn't given automatically in this case because the second out happens on the line drive he tags the runner at 3rd (out #3) then steps on 3rd (out 4). That's the stupid part to me they got all the outs it shouldn't matter what order.

3rd strike pass ball when the batter reaches base safely also recorded as 4th out

I thought that if a runner left early and could not get back to the base in time that counted as a force out, which would eliminate the run in these cases. I'm not sure where I heard that. I guess it's not true. But it would make these plays better.

So what happens when a dugout has a baseball lawyer manager who yells at everyone to stay on the field and throw for the appeal but the players aren't in the proper defensive positions?

I was waiting for (what seems years) for jonboy or Matt antoneli to do a breakdown of this play. But you did 100 better video that they could have combine.

Great to see Mike Schmidt. Guy was a blaster at bat.

I think it is a great rule and part of what makes baseball, baseball. The greatest game sine chess. Only better.

So let's say the team does stay on the field, they make the appeal, and get that fourth out. Does the pitcher get credit for 1 1/3 innings pitched for that one inning he did?

I think the worst rule is having to touch home plate after a HR. Anyway... about the rule you're talking about: The problem is that you're forgetting something. A runner does NOT HAVE to tag up on a fly ball, in order to advance to the next base. Now I know what you're thinking: "YES THEY DO!!!".... but No.. they don't. When the ball is hit in the air, a runner on base can immediately run to the next base if they want to. When the defense catches the ball ..... if the defense does not appeal, then the runner successfully advances. The reason people think runners HAVE to tag up, is because they pretty much do "have" to lol. If a runner immediately takes off, on a fly ball, of course the defense is going to appeal. When the defense appeals, and the runner is called out.... what does everyone say to the runner??? "Hey man, you have to tag up on a fly ball".... thus why everything thinks a runner HAS to tag up. So when the runner took off from 3rd base to homeplate, he was allowed to do that. Since he crossed homeplate before the 3rd out, the run counts. I don't see a problem with that or the rule. Also, not that you really go over this in the video, and you didn't contradict what I'm about to copy and paste, but I thought I'd paste it anyway, for anyone else asking "Yeah, but it's that a force out at 3rd?" "It is not a force out when a runner is put out while trying to tag up after a caught fly ball. Because this out is similar to a true force out in that the runner can be put out by a fielder possessing the ball at the base that the runner needs to reach, there is a widespread misconception that this out is a force out. But it is not, which means the run would count if it scored before the third out is made on a runner trying to tag up." Hope this clarifies the rule for you 🙂. I can understand why someone might think it's a dumb rule, on the surface... but when you actually delve deep into it, the rule makes sense.

Maybe a less frustrating way to look at it is to instead think of the appeal as more negating the score do to an illegal advancement, instead of a fourth out.

is this a new rule? no, them someone on the team should have known because the Pirates manager seemed to know and that's why the run counted.

The fourth-out situation always involves an appeal play, and there's a legitimate reason why an appeal play is needed. The basic concept is that an out is accomplished by the defense. If the defense doesn't do anything, you cannot have an out. This creates some interesting situations like the fourth-out. IMHO, the worst rule is the ability to review a play and overturn it. Look, umpires are humans and may make an occasional mistake, but so what. Players are not required to be perfect, why should the umpires? And what about those games and situations where there is no TV/view to review? Just go with teh call on the field, as was done for decades, and move on with the game, rather than interrupting its flow.

If the 3rd baseman had tagged the base before applying the tag to the runner, the guy who scored would've become the 3rd out instead, erasing any need for appeal

If they tagged third the runner is out and the score would not count. They tagged the runner on third that’s why the runner that crossed home is still in play.

The defensive player did step on 3rd therefore the runner from 3rd is forced out and no runnscores. This happened as he was tagging the runner from second whom I believe is not out at this because he is on a base. If they threw back to second base that runner would then be out. I am, however, not sure about the runner from being safe just being on the base since he didn't tag up.

To me, the worst rule is the one saying a home run is an AUTOMATIC run for every runner and the batter, yet everyone is still required to MANUALLY round the bases and MANUALLY score a run. It's a straight up contradiction!!!!

Shoulda just touched the 3rd base bag rather than the runner and we could have avoided the fourth out or lack there of.

The other thing that they could have done is tagged the base instead of the player

This could be eliminated by allowing the umpires to call a runner out for leaving early without an appeal. It doesn’t make sense that the umpires can observe a rule violation but not be able to call it. What is this, golf where the players call violations on themselves and each other?

Now with instant replay, can't they review this!? Of all the rules changes in the last couple of years, you'd think they would've taken a look at this one. Instead Mandred is trying to micro-manage baseball with dumb rules like no shifts but this rule still exists.

Just tag the plate. The umps all knew what was up, and not a single player on the field or dugout knew? Worst rule? No. It's an out if you walk over and take it, so just take it. They are professionals. That is their JOB. Wandering around looking confused is for us spectators, not the employees on the stage.

I can't disagree with you more. It's exactly this kind of deep-dive ruling that makes baseball the greatest game in the world.

baseball is a fun backyard game, but that's about it. to make baseball a good competitive game there would need to be dozens of rule changes. it's just not a well designed game any more than marbles is.

It only the worst rule when you don’t know the rules. When you are getting paid close to a million dollars to play a game, it shouldn’t be too hard to study the rules. Most other workers have to know the rules for their job or get fired.

You don't need four outs. Just don't throw to first. If you throw it to third immediately and step on the bag, the runner will be out no matter what cuz he never tagged up.

4th out appeal. This is not the worst rule in baseball. The NFHS rule that a balk is an immediate dead ball is the worst rule in “baseball.”

They didn't need a fourth out. They could have just touched third base instead of tagging the runner from second.

What about this. Let's say it's a perfectly fine rule, and the defensive team should have better knowledge & execution on the field. If the fielder throws the ball to 3rd base, and no attempt is made to tag the other runner, a call should be made On The Field During The Live Ball that the scoring runner has been tagged for the Third Out. Does that make sense? Let's say that makes sense. Now, this 4th Out Rule is giving the defense a SECOND OPPORTUNITY to do it right, if they were too dumb to do it right the first time.

There is nothing wrong with this rule. Because any runner can tage up at third then score if he beats the throw to any base. And it is the fielders job to know if the runner left early. It is not the umpire's job to do a visual note. So this was just bad fundamental baseball on the defensive side. So when the runner scores before the third out it most definitely should count unless it is appealed. Just like any other sacrifice fly. Players often leave early and get caught by the appeal. To remove this situation you must end all appeals. I feel there is absolutely no reason to change this rule. Every rule change over the last 50 years have made the game a worse product. The absolute worst rule change has been the DH. That takes so much of the strategy and skill of a manager out of the game. Also the pitching timer is not good for the game either.

Not if you know the rules and know that this isn’t a force play. This is an appeal play and the team didn’t correctly appeal. They wouldn’t have needed to put the ball in play as the ball was still live. They literally could have stepped on third base and said “he left early” then no run scores. It’s really not that hard.

In football(the real one, not hand egg) it's not uncommon for a ref to let the play keep running if the team that was fouled already has an advantage that would else be lower if the foul was called immediately. And in Tennis you can appeal wrong calls. In academic fencing the ref only answers direct questions of the second or testant on each side. So no, Baseball isn't the only sport in which this happens.

At this level they should know they need to appeal. It's not that hard.

Oh well, that's baseball.

This isn't a bad rule. You don't have to appeal if you just throw to the base the runner left early from. Same as getting a double play on a runner going back to the bag on an out in the air.

nothing wrong with the rule... the D needs to appeal the scoring runner leaving early for a 4th out to erase the run

An appeal has to be deliberate. Just stepping on the bag because it was under your foot when you put your foot down doesn't count. Tagging the runner from second is deliberate since there is no other reason to tag him. The reason it's this way is that it allows base runners to partially advance on fly balls. For example, a runner at first may run halfway to second on a fly ball to deep left field. If it drops, he will easily make it to 3rd or even score. If it's caught he goes back to first to beat the throw back. That throw is deliberate because there is no other reason to throw the ball back to first. Now suppose the ball is dropped, but the runner misses second. The left fielder runs in to apologize to the pitcher, and steps on second base when he runs by it. Is that an appeal? No, because it's not deliberate. And my experience in this case with youth baseball is the umpires may be the only ones that didn't see him step on second. Event the runner may not really be aware of it. Even saying the runner at 3rd cheated is not fair. Perhaps he thought the ball hit the ground, and at that point he has built up momentum heading home. In this case, he cannot really go back without risking being tagged, so he continues on to score.

I'm so glad that KZfaq stuck this video in my feed. It definitely is the worst rule. There's no need to get a fourth out ever. No run should ever count that wasn't done legally. If you don't tag up, you don't score. And once you go to the dugout, you're out of the baseline and couldn't go back and tag up even if you wanted to. You're out. No appeal necessary. Fix this rule now Baseball!

This is not stupid. It is really simple. Instead of tagging the runner on third that left early, follow the damn rules. Set up on the mound and appeal to third base, not the runner, the base. The ump was clearly waiting on this to happen and would have called the runner that crossed the plate out and negated the run. However, when the defense continued the play and tagged the runner, the negates the appeal and the run counted. These pros should have known that and if nothing else the manager should have intervened verbally to say "don't tag him!" Not a stupid rule, stupid execution of the game.

This is nuts.

I love that rule!

Baseball is the only sport you can break the rules and get away with it. Has he not seen LeBron play? 😂😂

Not that confusing. Not that bad. Same rule that I understood in 3rd grade sooo . . .

I'm lost. I get the 4th out rule, but what I don't get is the fact the 2 runners never tagged up, but the ball was caught before it hit the ground. Shouldn't both players have to tag up before a score can be counted in the first place? So how are they allowing players to score a point without said tag up? They shouldn't have to do this "Appeal" BS. If the player fails to tag up after a ball was caught mid-air and a force out at another base, that would normally end defense, is made then the player who never tagged up shouldn't score? Isn't that how it should be? Or am I missing something? It's dumb that they would have to get a 4th out on a guy that never tagged up after a mid-air catch was made, but 3 outs were made. Someone please explain.

I'm not even a baseball fan, but no one has mentioned the wierd "uncaught third strike" rule that might allow four outs in an inning. Think of it really: batter swings misses and is really technically out (credited out), but if uncaught he gets duality of being in play while being out and can still be safe if he's quick? ... And I don't get the ball in play thing- why isn't the ball always in play again?

What the fielder should have done is tag the base.

Why not throw the ball to second?

no big deal 4th outs are possible

4th out appeal, it's weird but I kind of like it, if the umpire sees the no tag up it's easy to avoid, so it makes sense to need to challenge, also you have to appeal leaving early on not a 3rd out so it makes sense

First of all you misspelled best rule. Second of all how hard is it to step on third before you leave the field.

Disagree with your saying it is the worst rule. Because if that runner didn't leave early it definitely should count if cross the plate before the out. So if you don't throw out the lead runner you won't know if he left early. It is the defense's job to do check if he left early not the job of the umpire to tell the defense.

I disagree. I think part of the game is knowing the rules of the game. These plays highlight this rule. Coaches should know be coaching their players for exactly this situation. In my personal opinion quirks in the rules are fun and they don’t ultimately benefit one team or the other. I don’t mind one team gaining an advantage because of a very rare situation where they knew the rules/didn’t know the rules. It encompasses the mental aspect of the game as well.

TIL

Strongly disagree.

To be clear, the ruling was 100% within the guidelines of the rules of MLB. For whatever reason this rule exists, you can trust that a more unfair situation existed prior to this rule that necessitates it. It is too late for me to dream up the scenario as to why it exists, but it definitely involved closing a loophole someone exploited 80+ years ago. We all understand why the infield fly rule exists, but why does a catcher using attached equipment to field a ball result in the only 3 base award? It is to the advantage of players and managers to know the rules and the job of the umpires to do so flawlessly. For every clip you showed exhibiting this rule aberration, there are 1000+ of two runners occupying the same base and neither the offense or defense knowing who is out or safe. If the players can't bother to learn the rules, why complain about the instances they didn't use them to their advantage?

Why isn’t a runner being forced to tag on a caught ball not a force out? It’s not like the runner has a choice to which bag they can go to next

this is dumb. A guy not tagging up shouldn't be allowed to score. And once 3 outs are made, you shouldn't need a fourth out. That's why hockey is better.

This isn’t a rule. It’s a consequence of other rules. If you don’t like it, you either have to change those rules (and deal with the cascading consequences of those changes) or carve out some clunky exception for this exact situation, which would be far dumber

Am I seriously the only one in your theoretical 100 baseball fans who knew the rule here?? The run counts. Of course it does! Game awareness, baseball IQ, i.e. the 6th tool, dictates an appeal at 3rd to get the third out there AND prevent the run. It's actually NOT a big deal like you're making it, IF you know the rules. Please stop trying to make this game like all the others. That is a complete fallacy from the beginning, and nullifies all of your arguments from that point on.

It is NOT confusing. Very simple. Players usually do not know the rules of the game that they play. Managers and coaches sometimes know even less.

This is a dumb and ridiculous video. The only situation in which the “fourth out” appeal is necessary is when the fielders have made the extremely foolish mistake of getting the third out from a runner OTHER than the one who scored. (Getting the third out from a *force play* is also a good and secure way to prevent the run-but that is of course impossible when the batter has flied out). The moaning and wailing from the KZfaqr is especially ludicrous given that he completely fails to notice that *the fielding teams have badly screwed up to put themselves in this situation.* If they had made the third out by tagging third base rather than a runner (SO DUUUUMB) or a different base, the run would be invalidated and there would be no “fourth out rule” to throw a tantrum about. Finally, the KZfaqr’s bleat that it’s somehow awful and unjust for a runner who “broke the rules” to score is mind-blowingly absurd. Of COURSE such a runner can score *if the fielding team never bothers to put him out!* Maybe they should try to, you know, DO something about him? Before wailing that the basic rules of the sport are “wrong” and “complicated” and “confusing”? Leaving a base before a fly ball is caught does not make a runner naughty or undeserving of scoring a run. It merely *places him at risk of being put out by the defense.* If they don’t bother to make a play on him, he can basically run wherever and whenever he wants-miles outside of the base paths, skip bases, whatever. If the defense does NOTHING in response, he’s fine, and he can perfectly legally score. It just seems like someone didn’t learn the rules when he was in little league. If a run scores on a play in which the third out was made *and that out wasn’t a force out,* there is a very real possibility that the run counts. That situation requires the fielding team to think and act carefully. Complaining about the fundamental rules of baseball instead is a deeply stupid alternative.

Texas Tie Breaker absolute worst then Infield Fly Rule just ridiculous.

He mentioned that a rule was broken. There was no rule broken. In fact, everything proceeded according to the rules. The rule says that the runner must touch his original base after a fly ball is caught for an out before advancing to the next base. However, if the runner fails to do so, he may be put out by a fielder tagging the base while in possession of the ball before the runner returns. It is not a violation of these rules to neglect to "tag up" because that situation is covered in the rules.