Geedubs: We're going to give you the thing you've been clamouring for. Fans: Yay! Geedubs: But we're changing so much that it barely resembles what you loved. Fans: Terrible idea Geedubs: Ok, we'll change nothing Fans: Also terrible idea

For me the most interesting question is will GW's put a modern pricetags on 20+ years old sculpts ? xD

Kings of War has been a solid competitor to Warhammer Fantasy since 8th ed. It may not have the GW marketing department behind it, but Mantic and Kings of War has solidly made a place for itself.

We can still cherish and use the IP for Warhammer Fantasy, there are a lot of great rulesets we can use to still enjoy our factions :D

This new website has taught me that GW's previous website design was P-E-R-F-E-C-T-I-O-N

The long, turn based structure GW uses for 40k carries with it the same thing…. It’s the worst part of the game to me. Not going first in 40k can be a disaster as you wait and watch your opponent destroy your army as all your troops stand around, stunned and doing nothing.

Gw: promises change and optional purchases of codexes. Also gw: releases same rules and structure from before and locks rules behind a pay wall that requires you to buy a codex

GW successfully managed to make the transition from I-go-you-go to alternating activations with Necromunda 2017, and did so in a way that kept the flavour of the 1995 edition quite faithfully if you ask me. But GW handicap themselves in terms of building on good ideas by not giving decent pay or recognition to their employees. So institutional memory suffers due to high staff turnover.

I want this to work so I can get back to my Tomb kings and Lizardmen armies I had back in the day.

The absurdity that a company called "Games Workshop" is not capable of creating descent games is stunning

GW's refusal to adapt to alternating activations is so baffling. Their previous refusal lead to the creation of Bolt Action, which has become one of their bigger competitors.

The "I go You Go" turn system is in use by their other major gaming systems includong 40k, AOS, Horus Heresy etc.. This feels like hyperbole saying it will make the game dead on arrival. Opportunity for improvement? Sure. DOA? That's not likely to be the reason it fails, if it fails.

Honestly, in 2003 I abandoned WHFB for LotRSBG because it was simpler and had alternating activation, and was just a better game all around. I also really liked Kings of War, and started playing that again with my Warhammer Fantasy models. I actually have no reason to be excited for WtOW at all except the new models and the re-released models that I can use for KoW :)

"A lot of them have moved on into a graveyard" So? Aren't those people the target audience for Vampire Counts?

The best ruleset GW ever made was MESBG. It scales really well has deep rules but simple to pick up and play.

So we’re getting back what we loved and had taken away? Everything you touched on them revealing is a win. I hate the new systems that GW have been using and I am excited at the prospect of getting back a system I enjoyed with a few tweaks.

Why, why am I not surprised that GW once again has messed up something I loved?

Fuck age of Sigmar. If they would have put the same amount of creative energy into seventh edition, Warhammer, as they did with age of Sigmar, they probably wouldn’t have had issues with it in the first place.

The bad news: GW screws up... The good news: there are better rank and file games. I think I'll check out Oathmark

I think we can look at GW's history and get an idea of how this relaunch is going to go. So how many times have GW over promised and under delivered in the past? Yea, exactly....

Listen..buy the minis by all means..play it how you want.

I had some laughs that auto-subtitles interpret it as 'Warhammer Fancy Battles'. 😂

We have improvised a wargame with my son and tried to move like chess, (i.e. I play one unit only, you play one, I play one, etc), guess what, it does not work very well because you can not do combos like "Wizard buffs this guy and then this guy attacks", etc.

I think the magic system will be fine if they manage to make it obvious when the spells are meant to be cast by just reading the rules, but readable rules and GW aren't really a top combo in my mind tbf.

I share your fear of the old world failing. My hope is that at least the hype will help resurrect the rank and flank playgroup in my local are. I would have been playing more KoW if I could have gotten people into it. I will forgive a lot if I can just get my beloved old tomb kings army back on the table.

Having followed this channel and others for a while, I think it's sort of time for folks to either step back from the hobby or continue it knowing full well who GW is. They've never been, and never will be, a consumer focused company until something hits their bottom line in a very big way. This is the way they've been for 20+ years. The outrage that they seem to auto generate just doesn't make a difference. Im not proposing shutting up about their missteps, but you simply can't be emotionally invested into how they do business anymore.

While in other news Clash of Kings 2024 for Kings of War drops monday, rules playtested, tweeked by a committee not on the payroll of Mantic.

Just remember that all the previous systems still exists.

The things I want to see are: -Keep the grimdark flavor -Bring back the large variety of unique to army customizable magic items -Return the game to a tactical similation where movement and positioning were as important as the actual units themself -focus on scenarios, special army lists, and customizable options like the General's compendium.

The sky is falling!

Is there any rank and flank game that actually uses alternating activations? I'm not sure it could work. I like the idea of no deployment phase and instead moving all units on from off the board though, I'll have to give that game a look.

no way GW was ever going to reinvent to wheel.

What did Zorpazorp say about AoS that was so bad? It appears to have been purged from the internet

Curious what makes kings of war better and more modern than warhammer 7th?

Trying to appeal to old school players who already have armies, resent the idea of rebasing, and have probably moved onto a new system (if not kept their old rules) seems a tough ask.

I think the game sounds fine. Looking forward to it immensely. Turn the sequence works fine and im willing to give the new magic system a whirl.

If GW creates The Old World as a complete new game- why do they use pictures from the sixth edition rulebook in that article? Kings of War uses a You go I go- mechanic, too. And this is very usefull for competitive games with a clock. But it still is faster than the old Warhammer Fantasy. So, this is not the problem, even not with younger players, because the rules and unit profiles have another stucture.

I just checked for that Zorpazorp video. It must have been delisted!

I think you underestimate just how IP focused and nostalgia hungry they average GW fan boi is. I play/ am involved in a lot of non-GW games, both skirmish and big battle, and the most asked question on any forum is "Can I run "X" GW army in this game?" to which the obvious answer is usually yes because orcs are orcs etc. But to their mind that's not enough, they want the same abilities down to the naming... the orcs MUST have rules for choppas, and no other +1 strength on the charge ability will do.

I don't think IGOUGO is nearly as bad for Fantasy as it is for 40K. There isn't nearly the same potential for being blown off the board by an alpha strike on turn 1, and this is because shooting in general is relatively much weaker - and that's the part of a turn when the non-active player has least to do. Yes, I'm somewhat baffled by GW's corporate death grip on the IGOUGO turn structure, but I enjoyed Fantasy as a game back in the day, I think the tweaks they've shown so far have been positive, and I don't think Fantasy failed because of IGOUGO. It failed because you had to build a massive army from expensive 10-model boxes. With 32 peasant bowmen to a box, I think there's a chance that the prices might actually be lower _in nominal terms_ than when they discontinued the game, which would be wild. If the rules scale well for small games, or there's a variant of the rules that works well for people who are building up an army, then I think it could do well.

Not sure how you feel about doing stuff on other KZfaqrs' products, but with GW continuing to out-GW themselves, and with MiniWarGaming stepping into the tabletop space as a game creator now, have you had a chance to look at their Ravaged Star stuff?

Biggus Dickus 😂 Honestly the I go you go thing always put me off of 40k. I love the hobby and lore aspect but don't like to play it because it always boils down to all of an army shoots at one group until it's dead. Seriously it's not fun watching an entire army move and mow your stuff down. I like one unit at a time.

Isn't it a bit daft to declare a game dead on arrival off the back of a couple of articles? Just on one substantive point, we don't know whether it'll be entirely YGIG, or whether, for example, units activate alternately within each phase. I'm glad they're bringing back the setting, anyway. It's encouraged me to get into Warmaster! Anyone fancy a game of Warmaster?

I’m here for the Biggus Dickus reference

It's to bad when companies try and fix something that's not broken. Or make huge changes to something that's been great, only to make it worse. Its a good thing, everything stay pretty much stays the same down in the ole potato mines.

I love the idea of starting of the board and bringing in scouts first. Also for anyone who’s played apocalypse the command phase was about putting your tokens down for one of 3 commands, which then each player revealed a command and moved, shoot or charged that unit before the other players turn, which sounds more like a command phase. These rules could easily be introduced or implemented into the new Warhammer game and it would be awesome. I really wish it would be brought into 40K and I would start playing again.

Hyperbolic takes. You-go-I-go is a fine system, many games still use it. Who is taking 1 hour long turns (as suggested in the video)? Even if that's a problem, ever heard of chess clocks? It's a nice way to keep the game flowing and avoid analysis paralysis. BTW, alternate activation system can be as slow as you-go-I-go, since the game state changes all the time, it's a system prone to cause more analysis paralysis as you cannot plan your turn ahead and have to adapt after every activation of your opponent.

Glad to see that GW always find new reasons for me to keep my money safe and away from them

Oh now it’s exactly the same structure as age of Sigmar, 40k, blood bowl and so on. It’s almost like games workshop creates a turn based system in all its games. How is anyone shocked?

Queen of shifting ever so slightly to offer a new thumbnail look of dread.

I disagree with the magic phase in earlier editions of Warhammer wasn't interesting. I found it to be quite engaging due to its unique dynamics. As a spellcaster, there was a delicate balance to strike - you wanted to use as few power dice as possible but still cast enough to avoid being dispelled. The way you stacked your spells was crucial, and baiting out dispel dices with less important spells to secure "free" casts for more vital ones added an additional layer of strategy. On the flip side, as the dispeller, you typically only had control over the first couple of rounds before things got chaotic. This added a fun mind game element to the game. I always found it quite flavorful that magical defenses gradually shattered over time.

GW isn't a 'gaming' company. GW sells books and models for profit.

GW's Business Model is more like owning property, building something on the property and then intentionally burning it to the ground and rebuild again after cashing in on the Insurance $...rinse and repeat because it works so very well

3:40 No, Kings of War is not literally Warhammer Fantasy Battles. That would be The 9th Age.

so, to make sure I'm understanding this correctly. fans were pissed they killed warhammer fantasy. now GW is giving them exactly what they wanted back. this is somehow a bad thing.....

To be honest, I really like how ASOIAF plays as a game.

On the contrary, most of the grognards I know would not play the game if it wasn't UGIG. The newer players have no interest in regimented wargames. They prefer skirmish. If they can't survive on the old guard, the game was DOA to begin with and never should have been brought back.

Really happy with the Warhammer Renaissance project on Facebook. Don't know why more WFB fans don't use them as it's all free and incorporates the best of all editions while using ALL of your minis whether old or new. None of this redundant model bullshit! Want to use skeleton bowmen? You can. Want to use empire war wagon? You can. Chaos Dwarves? Yep! While I may get some new Tomb King's I refuse to be straight jacketed again with a limited model range and no way of using old classic models.

Worse than the space marine scandal? Worse than the incoming warhamer disaster? Worse than the warhammer fest 2023 disaster? Worse than the new orks? Worse than the new black Templar? You get it yet? This is Worse than someone having zero ability to create actual content

I think this magic phase change makes sense. You cast your buffs/debuffs in strategic phase, your spells that make things go faster when things move, and your magic damage spells in the ranged attack phase…because they are ranged attacks.

Its to early to say. It comes down to what the charge reactions are. I can imagine (hope) that some units get some sort of counter charge, the active player would have the advantage but maybe (im looking at Khorne for example) those brass armoured dudes also get to charge, but in a disordered (we might say impetuous) fashion.

Turn sequence should go by initiative.

It’s like you don’t even try anymore. Same pic and just add a few more “worse” . Next time will have 3 worst! Lol

I'm an old school fantasy player, and I'm not dead yet damn it!!

The algorithm is broken. My recommendations are flooded with your videos, I’ve never been interested in war hammer. Some of the model painters have some pretty impressive skills though, I can appreciate that.

Do you ever think you might be happier in a different hobby?

Why does everyone sleep on the 9th Age?

I'm out of touch with Rank and File games, but this has me thinking... is there a Rank and File fantasy tabletop that plays like XWing? So a blind planning phase where both players put their planned movements face-down, then the reveals and action happens in unit-initiative order?

Honestly, they can keep this phase system but instead of letting each side do all their phases at once they could have made it be that each player does a single phase before they move to the next phase. I move then you move

I'll reserve judgement until I see the actual magic system but to me this makes sense. Movement spells are cast in the movement phase, shooting spells are cast in the shooting phase etc. I also don't have a problem with I go you go. And no idea who you're playing with or what size battles you are playing but in 7th and 8th we could comfortably get a game done in 3 hours, which included set up and packing away. So turns are no where near an hour.

I don't see any of this being worse per-sey. I-go-you-go is fine, its neither worse nor better than alternating activations, what matters is how bogged down you have to get in sub steps per phase. This is where I think the magic changes are actually good, the Magic phase in 8th always got bogged down in rolling channelling dice and allocating out all of your casting dice from your dice pool, something which got longer the more wizards you had. New system looks closer to older versions of 40k, you'll likely get a pool of casting dice in the strat phase and then you just cast the spell in the phase you need it. I wouldn't say its any more or less cognitive load than doing it all in the same phase, sure you might forget to cast a spell a certain phase, but you're also just as likely to forget you cast a spell in the 'magic' phase when it comes time to actually use its effect (ie buffs/debuffs come the combat phase)..

You-go-I-go ... Is that such a huge problem? That's what Warhammer has always been. I think they'd really lose the old guard if they didn't stick to that. When you generalize and say "people" won't want to wait until it's their turn, aren't you talking about ... well, kids basically? They're off playing AoS or Baldur's Gate 3 anyway. This game is not aimed at Gen Z. It's aimed at old Millennials and Gen X'ers who had their hearts carved out by GW 10 years ago. Not giving them something that faithfully resembles Warhammer would be a huge own goal.

If there's anything I've learned about embittered vets for gaming of all varieties... It's that they hate change. They got excited about old warhammer coming back, a lot of them will have 'wanted' old warhammer. Right or wrong lol.

Poor Shane MacGowan! What did he ever do to you? 😂

I’m not dead yet!

My question to GW is: Why should I spend hundreds of (Insert Local Regional Currency Here) to play Warhammer: The Old World that also involves collecting an army, painting said army, either finding a group of players to play with or going to my local hobby store and hope that some random person also wants to play a game of Fantasy Battles when I can just boot up my PC, pick any army I want from an entire roster of armies and play several battles in one afternoon (and on a much larger scale than anything I could put on the tabletop) instead of the one, or maybe two I could physically?

Me who plays the game using pirated PDF's and cardboard minis: "Oh no! Anyways..."

Ok I’m rapidly approaching my grave and consider myself an old player. The problem here as I see it is skirmish rules vs “big battle” rules. One size doesn’t tend to fit all. Sure there needs to be order, but the bigger the fight the more unwieldy the turn based system gets. Then there is the issue of complexity and “keeping place”. It’s the kind of thing where someone just needed to have a good solid knowledge of table top systems and dare I say the odd rpg? And see if you couldn’t just appraise and apply.

GW games are like an abusive relationship. Ive played them a bit over the years. The normal thing seems to be ita great at first, then within a year, they pull the rug out from under you, and you get shat upon. So now, the deal is initiative means the winner moves everything and runs through all his phases before the other guy does anything? Yeah, im not missing much

I'm really encouraged by the Warhammer: The Old World rules so far. The main hope I have for making this game great is a focus on smaller unit size, smaller board size and smaller army size. The old game was focused on games over 2000 points with several large models usually in each army. My hope is that the rules scale well from 300 pt to 3000 pt games and the main focus is on games

Just use Conquest rules. System is so smooth and clean. And by having to use your drawn unit cards, adds another fun layer of randomness.

What did they do to zorpazorp?

I just want the models. Hopefully Mordheim 😂

I'm looking forward to the rerelease of some of their classic plastics, but I have not been will willing to play any GW game for decades and I am still not.

My suggestion: unhook from GW's teat. They're not the only game in town.

They could have gone with something based on Warmaster. But I think GW is pretty married to the idea of making each model the basic unit of their games. Overall, I think that a big rank an flank game is not a good match for GW's current business. Their prices won't let many scale up to a large army and their sculpts are too detailed and dynamically posed to rank up anyway.

Oh noo, GW didnt fundementally rework the fantasy relaunch? Panic! Christ, GW whiners are just as bad as GW shills.

It amazes me how GW throws one golden fleese after another into the flames 🔥

Lets hope its closer to opr phased battles optional rules rather than old whfb phased battles

Of all the game mechanics from the 80s, why cling to I-Go-U-Go? It's easily one of the worst, the more dire enemy of fun. Many mechanics being added to GW's mass battle games - Stratagems in 40K, Reactions in Horus Heresy, etc - exist entirely to lessen (marginally) the problem of non-engagement inherent in this turn structure. They wouldn't NEED to make the games so much more complicated, if they just adopted Alternating Activations. You know, like they've done with all their skirmish games. We know they know what the problem is, but they refuse to do it for the mass battle titles. It's holding them back from being as enjoyable as they could be.

Now when I think about it... maybe what we need is... us, the community. Just like modders keep alive older PC games like Skyrim, we need modders who would make rules that make sense in 2023

People expected it to have a vastly different turn structure? Hm. Thought it was a "You want Warhammer Fantasy, well here it is" kinda deal. I don't think either IGUG or alternating activations is the way to go for a fresh game. The former's drawbacks are long periods of doing nothing + alpha strikes, and the latter suffers from making unactivated units a higher priority target. Maybe something with simultaneous resolution, like in Battletech, could work. Or something similar to MESBG, where players charge and counter-charge.

The Old World will live ore die by the amount of support it will receive, it was the same with WHFB, the game started flaundering when GW cut its resources down. Therefore all this doomsaying is misplaced, and remember the "I go, you go" systems have their own set of problems that make them very difficult to apply to a game as complex and WHFB is.

Hmmm, what hyperbole am I listening to today?

Thanks Discourse - will you be livestreaming "Rogue Trader" when it comes out? So I can plan my drinking accordingly...

Designing from the ground up means they can change up models. Changing models means you can't use old armies which means buy buy buy. Chaching

GW needs to completely clean house with their game development teams and start rehiring some people that left GW to make much better games.

So we just us alternative activations in our own games

1:22 they don’t want you to be able to just socket in that old dwarf army you’ve had for decades, that’s why the original wasn’t selling for shit before, and why they nuked the setting and made AoS, and did the same (practically) to 40K and made Primaris.

I will admit, I liked AoS because it reminded me of 40k, or at least... How 40k played at the time... And it actually inspired me to pick something different for my army since i was already a space marine player for the 40k game. Personally, games like Stronghold are some of my favorites, being able to make battle lines of units and send them in like an actual army rather than as small squads sounded so fun... But it was so expensive to get into 40k that i just couldnt get into AoS like i wanted to... It also didnt help that my faction, the Seraphon, were never in stock ANYWHERE... So... That sucked.