U Zina Pagoda and the 5-Act Travel Challenge (Mawlamyine, Myanmar)

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4 жыл бұрын

TIME STAMPS
0:19 What do I know about the U Zina Pagoda?
3:14 Walkway to Pagoda (Chinthe and puppies!)
14:26 View toward the train station
18:55 Act #1 - Bathing of the Buddha
23:05 Act #2 - Ringing the Gong
24:58 Act #3 - Ringing the Bell
27:16 Act #4 - A Donation
27:42 Act #5 - Bead Meditation
31:46 Statues representing human suffering
33:49 5-Fact Challenge
35:51 5-Act Challenge
37:09 Post Credits Clip 1 - Encounter
37:27 Post Credits Clip 2 - Interview
The U Zina Pagoda is one of several beautiful pagodas set along the ridge running through Mawlamyine. While I was there enjoying the beauty of the setting and the scenery, I felt like I wanted to do more than just be an observer. While visiting pagodas, I often have the urge to take part in the life I see around me, but I always resist that urge. I feel that it isn't my place perhaps, and I'm more comfortable in the role of an observer than a participant.
But the U Zina Pagoda was almost completely empty, since it was the hottest part of the day, and I felt more comfortable with the thought of doing things, such as ringing one of the gongs and ringing one of the bells. I asked an attendant at the pagoda if it was okay for me, as a foreign visitor, to do this, and they said it was fine. So, the 5-Act Travel Challenge was born - a challenge to myself to stop being a passive observer and take part and perform 5 appropriate acts.
Cheers,
Douglas (AKA The Cycling Canadian)
MESSAGE FROM THE CYCLING CANADIAN:
Thanks for checking out this video. I am the Cycling Canadian (AKA Douglas), and I'm making videos about my experiences traveling around the world both on and off a touring bike. I travel on a low budget, so I tend to stay in simple guest houses and spend my time exploring the local streets and markets on foot.
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Пікірлер: 89

@PlanetDoug 4 жыл бұрын

@dashingmay 4 жыл бұрын

Will you visit Thaton, the ancient Mon city?

@PlanetDoug 4 жыл бұрын

I didn't have any plans to visit Thaton. In fact, I didn't know about its history until I read your comment and I looked it up. But I might be passing nearby Thaton soon, so going there is a possibility. Have to wait and see how things go.

@BeauInGrace 4 жыл бұрын

@@PlanetDoug you should go visit the Kyaiktiyo pagoda! A Golden rock temple balanced on a cliff edge 😀 see link below kzfaq.info/get/bejne/nqp9qKaT2c2zl30.html

@mehmmonhtaw1553 4 жыл бұрын

Mawlamyine name, Another call name Moulmein in 1945 world war two. Mon people's call Moulmein is today. { Mawlamyine old name Moulmein } It is Mon kingdom old city. Mon people's and Burmese people's , culture and language very very different. Burmese people's call Mawlamyine. Mon people's call Moulmein. I'm from this city.

@yeminoo-ln7nu 9 ай бұрын

24:58

@san45myinttun 4 жыл бұрын

Well done that you had completed five acts challenge. For the Number "3" in Myanmar is symbolic to "3 treasures in Buddhism" 1. Buddha 2. Dhamma, Buddha's Teachings, 3. Thanga, Buddha' sons, who are monks. The beads that you used for a little bit of meditation has 108 beads, usually how people pray is 1. say a prayer, maybe short or long 2. go through one bead. Of course you used one hand only to move the beads, the other hand just handle the string. It is great that even in a short period of time when you go through one round, you did find some peace, which is amazing, just imagine if you did for longer period, you may enjoy and appreciate more. Anyway, take care, drink up, don't get dehydrated. Cheers

@WanderEats 4 жыл бұрын

The interview at the end was the highlight of this video mate. Interact with more locals buddy as I am sure they will be utterly surprised by your indepth knowledge of their country and culture.

@PlanetDoug 4 жыл бұрын

It's an interesting thought. An odd thing, though, is that I do interact a lot more with people than I show in the videos - local people and other foreign visitors. It's just that I haven't figured out how you include that in a KZfaq video. I don't want to talk to someone for ten minutes and then stick our conversation onto KZfaq unless I have their permission beforehand. Maybe it's not such a big deal, but right now, I have the habit of turning off the camera when I'm talking to people and then turning it back on when I'm alone. In this case, these students were taping the whole conversation for a class project and I asked them if it was okay for me to record it as well. Maybe I'll get more comfortable with that in the future.

@WanderEats 4 жыл бұрын

@@PlanetDoug - I feel you buddy but try to incorporate a quick ask, in the beginning, to see if they are comfortable to be on video. See the ratio after asking 10 people and see. I believe 8 out of 10 would gladly agree.

@ewengillies9826 4 жыл бұрын

Very diplomacy answers to their questions Doug. Yo could be a politician mate ... lol. Interesting to hear the students talking. Great vlog thanks. Bushyboy Oz.

@CL-mt3mn 4 жыл бұрын

Awesome to see you doing the 5 acts challenge in a temple. Doing all those challenges is a kind of respect for the temple. Doing or putting into practice those acts can bring about equanimity or being mindful. One act that is normally carried out by visitors to temples is walking in a clockwise direction around a pagoda three times. There are 108 beads on the chain. It is used for chanting in silence or aloud, which is considered a kind of meditation. The temple is so ancient but the Buddha’s images are pretty new and sweet too. Also enjoyed seeing how the people of Myanmar designed the lions’ and dragons’ images. They are quite different from what you see in Thailand, China and other countries. Granting the students an interview could be considered a bonus act to the 5 acts challenge of this vlog. Did you share your KZfaq channel with the students? Hope you did and they and their friends will subscribe to your channel. Great video with quality editing work. Keep exploring. 👍

@PlanetDoug 4 жыл бұрын

You're quite right about the five acts bringing about a certain equanimity or mindfulness. As I mentioned in the video, I find that my mind is usually going at a hundred miles an hour, and just slowing down for a few minutes and performing those almost ritualistic acts felt calming and peaceful. I was surprised at how strong an affect it had on me. Yes, I believe I mentioned my KZfaq channel. I have little paper name cards with the channel name on them, and I gave some of those cards to the students. At least I think I did. 🙂

@TinaKarunaKyi 4 жыл бұрын

Thank you for the great vlog. 8:20 I think the statue is of U Zina holding a ruby gemstone, not a fruit, in his hand. Legend has it that this pagoda was named after a former monk U Zina who, following a dream of buried treasure here, dug them up and used the funds to build the pagoda.

@TinaKarunaKyi 4 жыл бұрын

Well done and thank you again for your challenges of facts and acts. They make the vlogs interesting. 10:00 This scene depicts the subjugation of the serial man killer elephant Nālāgiri by the Buddha. Legend has it that Devadatta, the infamous enemy, released it to kill the Buddha. The raging elephant charged at the Buddha who received it with the powerful mind of loving kindness. Nālāgiri lowered its trunk and stopped. The Buddha caressed its forehead with his right hand. 10:12 The circular ‘disco’ lights around the Buddha’s head is an artist’s impression of the halo.

@TinaKarunaKyi 4 жыл бұрын

Typo: The elephant stooped. Not stopped.

@PlanetDoug 4 жыл бұрын

Thank you. That's very interesting. It makes sense that that would be a statue of U Zina holding a large ruby. I knew the general story of U Zina finding the treasure, but I didn't know about the statue. Now I understand better. And that's a wonderful story about Nalagiri. Next time that I see a Buddha image with an elephant in that position, I will know what it is about.

@viewedit 4 жыл бұрын

Thank you ... Was waiting

@poponew150 4 жыл бұрын

You are amazing! You even took the time to read the comments and responded. Pls. take good care of yourself and avoid taking too much risk. Regards.

@PlanetDoug 4 жыл бұрын

Thank you. I really enjoy the comments that people leave. It's great to feel like I have some company on these trips. 🙂

@agentmmarts3059 4 жыл бұрын

This video is very clear and sharp I must confess. Thanz a lot Senior Legendary Doug.

@HalimWander 4 жыл бұрын

the ending part was awesome..interviewed by local student

@FINEURBANART 4 жыл бұрын

this episode was meditation for me doug! lovely

@i-will-get-you-there 4 жыл бұрын

This is great! Nice going there. Great video. Seems your feet is doing good and not getting sick. Cheers

@rajeshkumarvishwanadhan8925 4 жыл бұрын

Superb, how nice when you vlog and we get to see everything, amazing, your style is so natural and down to earth, hopefully get to meet you sometime

@tonymoly8739 4 жыл бұрын

That interview session with the youths was splendid and enlightening. It’s always interesting for a local to be able to hear from foreigners what they really think and feel about his own country they are visiting. It’s seeing yourself or your country from a different perspective. There’s certainly great interaction between Doug and these youths and I reckon everyone had fun. It’s sweet that it ended with a nice wefie shot too.😉

@PlanetDoug 4 жыл бұрын

Yes, I enjoyed chatting with the students quite a bit. I'm actually posting a video today that has a bit more of that interview and then a little bit about me talking about it. As I mention in this new video, I was interviewed on many occasions in Indonesia. Students there had regular assignments to seek out a foreigner and chat with them in English. I always enjoyed it. I was actually surprised that they wanted me to physically take the selfie. I never do that myself, so I wasn't even sure how to do it with the smartphone camera. I never did see the pictures. I hope they turned out okay. But they also recorded the whole thing on their own camera for their class project. 🙂

@ChanNyein87 3 жыл бұрын

That’s awesome you found your inner peace while doing beads. Imagine how meditation for 1 hour can find more unseen feelings of being a human and training a brain for better focus or settling down the busy mind. Like a practicing jogging makes better stamina. Also glad that you found out how Burmese pronounces Moulmein in local language.

@acheartist 4 жыл бұрын

Love the kids! So kind and gracious are they.

@gameman2936 4 жыл бұрын

the way you talked to those teenagers was amazing.. I prefer mawlamine over Yangon but everybody has their own style😌😌

@TreborEioval 4 жыл бұрын

This is Myanmar, no tank top at the pagoda but the owner of the boutique wears one, Loll. Nice to see your videos especially from Mawlamyine since I'll be there in January 2020 (second visit for me, 1st in 2016) and only visit the southern part till Kawthaung If you have a chance go to Hpa-An, by boat from Mawlamyine it's a great village. By the way the beeds are called a mala, it's for repeating a mantra and If I remember well theres is 121 beeds in a long mala.

@PlanetDoug 4 жыл бұрын

I only recently found out that it's possible to go from Mawlamyine to Hpa-An by boat. I remember looking at the map before I went to Mawlamyine, and I saw that a river went all the way up to Hpa-An, and I wondered if it was possible to go by boat. But I never heard anything about it, and there was very little boat traffic on the river. So I assumed such a boat didn't exist. But it turns out that even my guest house - the Breeze - could arrange it. They told me that the cost depends on how many people want to take the boat. It's definitely something I would be interested in. I always enjoy going places by boat or train if possible instead of by bus.

@kuhan_gizmo 4 жыл бұрын

This video is very Dougendary! (Douglas x Legendary = Dougendary)

@tonymoly8739 4 жыл бұрын

I wore skinny pants while in Bagan and I was allowed into the pagodas. My friend wore bermuda shorts that’s slightly above her knees and the pagoda guard told her to pull them down a bit to cover her knees. I reckon women are more scrutinised than the men when it comes to proper attire in Myanmar. 😅

@kctan1839 4 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the educational information

@KKH_htut 4 жыл бұрын

Always enjoyable to see all you clips, Uncle. It's surprising fact that a foreigner from very very far country managed to come and visit such lesser-known but ancient religious sites in mm, trying to figure out the deeper meanings of each quest. And you really did 5-Acts too. Quite amazing & interesting cos not everyone can do that. So, I guess you really have something inside you and hope that you will discover it through meditation. (Of cos only if you are interested in meditation sort of thing) Btw, the more correct way to ring the bell & drum is to ring from the tip of the stick, not with the side although it can't be said it is wrong. The louder the better. Cheers! :')

@mohdk2299 4 жыл бұрын

Finally you can get a local to pronounce Mawlamyine in the video 👍

@PlanetDoug 4 жыл бұрын

Unfortunately (and sadly for me), just a few minutes later, I completely forgot what they told me. There's a little piece of video later on where I tried to say the name, and I talked about how the students just told me the proper pronunciation, and then I couldn't remember. So embarrassing. In my defense, when I asked some new people how to say it properly, they told me something completely different. I'm just lost all the time when it comes to pronouncing names in Myanmar. 🙂

@bridgitshearth 3 ай бұрын

33:00 Shin Upagote. He's worried about eating after the sun has passed the meridian (noon) because he's not supposed to eat later than that (as a monk).

@PlanetDoug 3 ай бұрын

Thank you for the clarification. I appreciate it. 🙏

@santoshTravel220 2 жыл бұрын

Good video

@BrokenArmorGurl 4 жыл бұрын

If i am your student, your class will be my favourite classes ever. I'll be eager to attend the class everytime.😆😅

@PlanetDoug 4 жыл бұрын

Thank you for saying that. I did teach English for a while (in South Korea and in Taiwan), and I have to say that I was never the most popular teacher. I think my students found me a bit too serious. Plus, I put a fair amount of emphasis on everyone using proper grammar. Maybe too much emphasis. 😀

@BrokenArmorGurl 4 жыл бұрын

@@PlanetDoug but i like it your way... Very precise and details explaination that in the end never put me in wonder.😊

@kyawsithu7574 3 жыл бұрын

The small buddha around the stupa that represent each day of the week are not ordered by day on the calendar, it's ordered by constellation. If you bring a compass to every pagoda you will see all directions from the main stupa to those small buddhas (that represent the days of the week) are exactly the same.

@PlanetDoug 3 жыл бұрын

That's interesting. Thank you. I read quite a bit about this subject, but I never came across this idea that they were arranged by constellation. That would explain why I had trouble figuring out the order.

@yetunkyaw6625 4 жыл бұрын

Please use umbrella or hat during walking in the sunny day time Doug because the sun radiation is too high in equatorial region like Myanmar.

@agentmmarts3059 4 жыл бұрын

41:47 They prefer you to take the selfi photo since you're the tallest in Myanmar at a moment.

@bridgitshearth 3 ай бұрын

11:30 is Shin Thiwali, a disciple of the Buddha. Carries a walking stick and a fan.

@thetsoehtike 4 жыл бұрын

Buddha bless you my friend. you do everything three times at temples because they represent Buddha, his teachings and monks (three jewels).

@arty2k 4 жыл бұрын

28:00 I`m laughing. how many minutes really elapsed there?

@PlanetDoug 4 жыл бұрын

I checked the original video, and it took about three and a half minutes. I'm surprised that it is such a short time. It felt a lot longer than that.

@kctan1839 4 жыл бұрын

Should have contacted some of the students and see if anyone of them willing to provide you with some assistance when you need them. I'm sure they will be most willing as they can also benefit from the interaction and the opportunity to brush up their English language.

@aminazeem 4 жыл бұрын

if you have trouble reading the language try downloading google lens, it will translated it for you

@aminazeem 4 жыл бұрын

it will translated all the text in the translated feature

@PlanetDoug 4 жыл бұрын

I don't think it works with the script in Myanmar, though. I've used Google Translate (with and without the camera feature) in various countries, and it worked great. But it doesn't work for me in Myanmar. I've tried it a few times.

@agentmmarts3059 4 жыл бұрын

Hello Legendary Doug.

@winmintun2992 4 жыл бұрын

Ring the bell or gong three times mean the number three represents "Buddha", "Dharma" (his teachings), and "Sangha" (the monks). They are called three jewels. Fundamental belief system in Buddhism.

@ianbell2901 4 жыл бұрын

Hi there. I really enjoy your vlogs Doug - I've only just discovered them & I'm gradually working my way through. A search on Google reveals that Wednesday morning is treated differently from Wednesday afternoon (as you suspected). Wednesday morning is the South compass point & Wednesday afternoon is North-West (which explains why the two Wednesdays weren't next to each other when you were looking for them). Here is the list from Google: Sunday Zodiac sign: Garuda, a mythical figure representing a bird-like divine creature Dominant planet: Sun Compass sign: North-East Personality: Independent, ambitious, generous Monday Zodiac sign: Tiger Dominant Planet: Moon Compass sign: East Personality: Intelligent, intuitive, patient Tuesday Zodiac sign: Lion Dominant planet: Mars Compass sign: South-East Personality: Strong, courageous, proactive Wednesday morning (00:01-12:00) Zodiac sign: Elephant with tusks Dominant planet: Mercury Compass point: South Personality: Unpredictable, spontaneous, energetic Wednesday afternoon (12:01-00:00) Zodiac sign: Elephant without tusks Dominant planet: Rahu Compass point: North-West Personality: Versatile, unconventional Thursday Zodiac sign: Mouse Dominant planet: Jupiter Compass point: West Personality: Sincere, unbiased, philosophical Friday Zodiac sign: Guinea pig Dominant planet: Venus Compass point: North Personality: Creative, affectionate, spontaneous Saturday Zodiac sign: Dragon Dominant planet: Saturn Compass point: South-West Personality: Responsible, disciplined, structured

@PlanetDoug 4 жыл бұрын

After a while, the penny finally dropped, and I realized that a quick way to identify the different altars or stations was to look for the attendant animal or figure. As you listed, each one has a different zodiac sign. Wednesday is the easy one, because it is represented by an elephant. Then you just have to look for the presence of absence of tusks. It's just one of those things that seems really complicated and confusing at first. But once you get it straight in your head, you see the pattern.

@diegoubarte5474 4 жыл бұрын

Interesting video as always....

@outsiderko 4 жыл бұрын

Have u been to Gaung Say island in maw la myaing? If not thats one place u can go to if u still in maw la myaing. U have to take a boat.

@joewin2853 4 жыл бұрын

It really bugs me that they are charging foreign visitors admission fee to visit many of the Buddhist pagodas in Burma. They do not charge the local visitors but voluntary donation is encouraged, this should be the same for all visitors, all visitors local and foreign origin should be treated equally in principle. After all, Buddhism is an imported foreign religion to Burma if you think about it. A place of worship and a place of refuge should not have an admission fee requirement for anyone.

@sayargyithakhin1658 4 жыл бұрын

Wow you mentioned mawlamyine is sleeping city .So what about naypyitaw ? I am joking .

@kctan1839 4 жыл бұрын

Greetings Doug. Thanks for the fantastic blogs. I keep wondering how you have trouble with the name of the place you're at. Should it be Moulmein? This should be of English origin as we also have a district in Singapore with that name. (Some guy's name during our time of colonisation). Also, you had not been able to communicate with the locals and I wondered if Google Translate can be of any help in times like this to make your stay more comfortable. Regards.

@CL-mt3mn 4 жыл бұрын

KC Tan There’s a condominium called Moulmein Rise in Malaysia. The road is named Moulmein Lane.

@kctan1839 4 жыл бұрын

@@CL-mt3mn we also have roads named Moulmein like M Road, M Rise, etc. There was also a traffic island known as Moulmein Circle before. :)

@anoldgod 4 жыл бұрын

Moulmein is what British called the city not some guy's name. It was first the capital of the British Burma after first Aglo- Burmese war. I guess they named other places in their empire this part of the world after this city because of that

@kctan1839 4 жыл бұрын

@@anoldgod thank you for your educational comment. I learn new things everyday.

@PlanetDoug 4 жыл бұрын

I think one of the reasons I stumble every time I try to say the name is that there are so many different versions and spellings from over the years. As Nanda Aung said, the simplified version "Moulmein" is the British way of saying and writing the name. I guess they had just as much trouble as I did, and they came up with this spelling. But after independence, the city reverted to Mawlamyine. But even so, I heard local people pronounce it many different ways, and I never could be sure which one was correct. Every time I grabbed my camera and went out into the city, I thought I had figured out how to say it. I even practiced it over and over. But as soon as I started talking, my mind would go blank, and I'd stumble over it again. 🙂

@deliahshaw5568 4 жыл бұрын

My family and I enjoy your channel very much. You do so much research and give us so much knowledge! We were wondering if you are monetized yet because we haven’t seen commercials?! You certainly deserve it.

@PlanetDoug 4 жыл бұрын

Thank you. I'm glad you've enjoyed the videos. To answer your question, no, I haven't applied for KZfaq Monetization for the channel. I imagine I will at some point. I'll just have to set aside some time to figure out how it all works and then do it. I've just been putting it off for some reason. 🙂

@zawkantlant 4 жыл бұрын

Nice to see you love puppy, but you should be careful of rabies infection, since these puppies are stray and I am sure they are not vaccinated.

@BeauInGrace 4 жыл бұрын

How did you get access to internet there? 😀

@PlanetDoug 4 жыл бұрын

I have a local SIM card for my smartphone with a data pack. So I can connect to the Internet in most places around Myanmar. Up on a high hill where that pagoda was located, I had a very good connection. It was just difficult to read the screen in the bright sunlight.

@BeauInGrace 4 жыл бұрын

@@PlanetDoug haha yep the Sun glare on the screen! They haven't come up with glare proof screens yet! 😀 oh nice, how much Gb of data do they give you?? That's pretty awesome mobile coverage!

@PlanetDoug 4 жыл бұрын

You can buy as much data as you like. At the airport, it was easy to buy a local SIM card, and you can buy 1 GB or 2 GB or 5 GB or whatever you like. I use the Internet a lot, so I generally buy the biggest package. I think my original package was 20 gigabytes and it cost about $13 US. If you use it all up, it's easy to go to a shop and just buy more data.

@BeauInGrace 4 жыл бұрын

@@PlanetDoug that's pretty awesome. Burma didn't use to have this kinda service some years ago 😀. Me and my parents enjoy watching your videos in myanmar (our home country, now we're living in Australia) everytime you upload a new one, we would put it up on tv and watch it 😄. I have not been back for nearly 20 years :) I'm now a very spiritual person so I could sense your spiritual connection with the temples that you often visit in myanmar :) I hope you stay for longer there and visit more sacred places :)

@BeauInGrace 4 жыл бұрын

@@PlanetDoug oh and btw, you strike the Bell with the tip end of the wooden stick (perpendicularly) 😀✌. Good work on the offering etc, you have to go visit a monastery and try some meditation out too 😀, it's better to get some extra tips of meditation method from the high monk there if you get a chance 😀

@andy080493 4 жыл бұрын

Hi Doug, are you back to Malaysia?

@andy080493 4 жыл бұрын

Great conversations with the local students. Wednesday morning - elephant with full tusks Wednesday evening - elephant with a broken tusk (deem as wilder) When you meditate, I think it’s better to sit down and do it.

@junsina1082 4 жыл бұрын

I believe he will return to Malaysia soon. This time might be Penang. I heard he interested to learn about P Ramlee.

@PlanetDoug 4 жыл бұрын

No, I'm not back in Malaysia yet. I don't have definite definite plans, but I think I will return to Malaysia in January of 2020. If not January, then in February. 🙂

@mehmmonhtaw1553 4 жыл бұрын

Mawlamyine name, Another call name Moulmein in 1945 world war two. Mon people's call Moulmein is today.

@TheBurmeseDude 4 жыл бұрын

11:20 That would be one of well-known enlightened monks who followed Buddha. A small sign on the right says "Shin Thi Wa Li Ya," which was his name. I used to know some of the monks history as I loved reading about Buddhism stories. Apparently on 12/12/2019, movie about one of the monks is coming out. That should be far more interesting to watch, compared to that slapstick movie you saw. I cringed when you put your finger in that puppy's mouth. I had to get rabies shot as a kid when a stray pup, about as small as the one you played with, bit me just a little bit but later died with foams around its mouth. I'd try anything to avoid stray dogs because rabies shots, god forbid should you need it, might not be available (and in time) or might not be effective (if they didn't keep it properly or expired, etc...).

@PlanetDoug 4 жыл бұрын

I do think about rabies. I certainly read enough articles about the fairly high numbers of rabies cases in Myanmar. It has come up in the news quite a bit. I actually have to remind myself of that when I encounter the street dogs, the temple dogs, the train station dogs, and all the others. My instinct is to call them over and pet them, but I don't do that. But when it comes to puppies, I forget. I just forget that they aren't really household pets and I forget about the rabies risk. My common sense is momentarily overpowered by the cuteness overload. 🙂

@TheBurmeseDude 4 жыл бұрын

It's interesting and scary how rabies shots were given out in the early 90s when I got the treatment in my little city. My father, thru his connection, found out that the hospital only gave half of rabies shot treatment per person and patients would have to get the other half of shots from somewhere else, which made no sense since this is a life-saving treatment and other hospitals in closest cities could be a hundred miles away, even if they have any treatments at all for other people from another city. So what ended up happening was that my father told hospital that my bother was also bitten. With that, I received all the shots I needed, which had to be taken over the course of 3 weeks. Imagine if you were a village person or a farmer who's honest to a fault and only told that one son was bitten, you would then have to go to another city, wondering if shots are available at all.