This list makes me want to make a game with all of these mechanics and call it "Frustration."

I love that Sam does the same things as me when given several dice... 1) Tessellate all your d6s into some kind of pattern with the numbers; 2) Rotate the whole construction so that you can look at the other three patterns you made as by-products; 3) Repeat about 70 times; 4) Push the dice away because you're driving yourself up the wall; 5) Wait 10 minutes; 6) Reach for the dice again and proceed back to Step 1.

Request: Top Ten House Rules.

Ironically, I only like cooperative games where there is hidden information between the players (such as Battlestar Galatica). Otherwise, I find that in cooperative games with no hidden information, everyone is constantly telling you how to play your turn.

I was fine with the roll and move mechanic.... until I played a real game and then i was like: HOLY CRAP, I CAN CHOOSE WHAT I WANT TO DO!!!!!! and i never went back

Pulling tiles from a bag isn't really the mechanic that's bad. It's the idea of going through all sorts turns and actions for a random reward that amounts to nothing.

I've ALWAYS hated the "roll the exact amount" mechanic to finish a game, from childhood onwards. It deserves to be number one.

#10 Keeping info to yourself in a cooperative game. #9 The game makes you act like a fool. #8 A card of doom. #7 Programmable movement. Well, more than one at a time, at least. #6 Lose a turn. #5 Pulling tiles from a bag. #4 The stupid war rules from Race for the Galaxy. #3 Rolling for actions. #2 Artificial Catch-up Mechanics. #1 Roll & Move.

We always play pandemic with each player's cards on the table.

Adding to Sam's 'the rich get richer' theme, I experience that in Settlers of Catan. After a couple rounds you know if you are going to have a good chance of winning or not. The placement of your first settlements has a lot to do with the game.

Awesome guys! Really fun to watch. Please make more!

A little late to the video, but my least favorite mechanic is: One player chooses a winner (Apples to Apples, Cards vs Humanity)

31:08 Tom: You know how careful I am with my games? Also Tom: Dice tower review, into my collection! *smacks the shit out of the game with a hammer*

I despise MTG blue decks. They're based on not allowing the opponent to make a move-any move. The victim is effectively not playing the game, and there is nothing less fun to do while playing a game than not playing the game.

I am loving these top ten videos! Keep em coming.

I'm loving these vids. Zee is the best. Love how 3 point of views balance things out so you get all the pro and cons of things. Great job like always.

So I just subscribed. I honestly don't care about boardgames, well maybe thats a bit harsh, but your personalities are so entertaining it makes me want to get into them

Damn these are all mechanics I was gonna put in the game i was designing.

I was so excited to see another top 10 list! Keep them coming.

These videos are highly entertaining, and keep a good pace throughout. Keep doing more!

If we can just include all of these mechanics in one game, maybe it'll be so bad it'll be good.

Getting eliminated in a long game...I got killed off in the first hour of Shogun (the MB Game Master version) and my buddies played for another 8 hours. Ugh. It was on a once-a-year game weekend. Boooorrrriiiiinnnnggg....

Great show guys, thanks and keep it coming

Part of the reason for #10 - concealing information - is that when a game like Shadows Over Camelot is played openly, ALL decisions become group-made ("you should do this") and the more experienced players usually dominate the gameplay. Requiring some personal info, like cards, be hidden inserts some independence for each player.

I may be wrong, but I suspect the reason for Zee's #10 (not being allowed to share information in co-op games) is to try to avoid the "alpha player" problem of one person telling everyone else what to do and basically running the whole show. If you don't know what other people can do, you can't give orders. Not to say that I think this justifies those rules, but I think that may be part of the reason they exist in so many games.

I know im late, but to adress that beginning citadels warlord complaint, I use the diplomat. He comes with the edition that includes expansion characters and districts. The only difference is that instead of destroying, he swaps districts with others.

I love these longer videos with Sam and Zed because the dynamic between the three of you is phenomenal. I'd very much enjoy seeing more of these kind of top ten videos or even some video play throughs of games where the three of you are discussing the game as you play.

Good job guys. Love watching you 3 talk about top 10 games and stuff. Keep them coming.

Parcheesi is the oldest and best roll and move game because there is strategy involved that games like Sorry and Trouble removed. You can actually divide the dice: if you roll a 4 and a 5, you don't HAVE to go 9 spaces, you can split it up between the pieces.

I don't know what to call this rant specifically, but the ending to the game Munchkin is more annoying to me than anything I've ever encountered. You're level 9, about ready to defeat a monster and win, but everyone else prevents this from happening. That's fine so far. Everyone else who is level 8 and below are allowed to defeat their monsters and catch up. Whoever is level 9 is the target of the players because they don't want to lose. It just drags on and on until everyone runs out of useful cards and someone finds an easy monster to defeat. But this isn't until hours later. And there is only a slim chance that the player who wins was even close to winning when the original person was so close. It acts as a neat mechanic in the early game, but towards the end, it is just a way for everyone to catch up.

Great video, you guys are hilarious and I love the list of annoying rules!

Just started watching your videos recently. Really loving them. You guys are great.

In RISK I play with rules that allow eliminated players to rebel in the territories they had in their final round (or former capital throughout the game). They can come back fully into the game with the right dice rolls.

Tom Vasel, you're a champ.

loved these top ten videos. thanks guys

I'm glad Zee has been sticking around, these top tens with all 3 of you are great.

Who's up to the challenge of making a game with the all of these rules? LOL Would it suck so much it became good? like a good bad movie?

I own over 100 board games, yet their #1 bad rule makes me fill dissed, because Talisman is my 2nd favorite game. Now I know people may not like it. But there seems to be an "aura" if you like Talisman or roll and move games, you are not a "real" gamer. I own a lot of games, and introduce games to my gamer group. Please don't disrespect those of us "real" gamers who like Talisman or other roll & move games.

50 minutes of awesomeness? Time for another Dicetower binge!

I thoroughly enjoy the quirky little music choices between segments. :)

I loved careers as a kid. It was the game that made me realise how stupid Monopoly is.

I hate the overall idea of randomizing any action at all. I know it is terribly hard to make a game based only on decisions and skill, and remove any dice, coin flips and etc, but these are the best games for me. Skill over luck! Thats why I fell in love with chess from the very first time I played it, at about age of 7 or 8, if a recall correctly.

i LOVED careers! i used to play it with my grandma when i was a kid! its so awesome to hear it mentioned again. thanks!

I really enjoy the vids where you are all together. It feels so fun and natural and not-scripted! I also totally agree with most of your TOP10. I don't know why you did not mentioned shoots and ladders for the TOP1 rule - as the game consists only of roll and move.

Gotta say, I will ALWAYS prefer the randomness of a dice over cards or tiles in a bag. Cards and tiles are drawn and removed, so the odds are always changing, while a die, is ALWAYS the same odds, every single roll. My d6 always has a 1 in 6 chance. Yes it IS possible to roll 100 times and never get a 6 or whatever, but at the end of the day.... I still had a fair chance at it the entire time. Not, the guy who pulled first had 1 in 5, but the next guy has 1 in 7, and so forth. I'll always take the constant odds over the constantly shifting odds. Granted, I haven't played Thebes, so I WILL admit that it may work because of the theme, but in general, no, I really dislike odds that are always changing.

Put links to each individual subject of the video. Hunting through for ones that are of interest is too much of a chore for many. Oh and learn what Socialism is, that comment was embarrassingly ignorant.

Great video! Thank you guys! :)

Okay Tom, Sam & Z need their own series! Please make this happen! This every other week special has become the highlight of thedicetower videos.

One little thing I would like to bring up about your show. The individual videos are a TAD long. Most top ten videos top in at about half the average length of your top tens. Long videos aren't totally bad, but when I am watching top ten videos, I really am just looking to waste around 10 to 20 minutes max. I might still end up wasting a whole hour total, but I'll waste it on several shorter videos; rather than a few long ones. Personally, I think you might be able to get your individual video's views up quite a bit if you shortened them a little. This video had 136,902 views as of my viewing. It is over a year old at this point. I see no reason why a top10 about a subject as popular as board games shouldn't have amassed closer to a million views over the course of a year. I think length may have something to do with that.

In regards to the "no communication" rule, it is indeed stupid in Witch of Salem. But in some games it isn't, like Shadows Over Camelot. The limited communication role is important to protect the traitor.

I love when these three are all together! Just as a note, programmable movement is one of my favorite all time mechanics!!

As someone who found your hatred of "roll to move" mechanics appreciable and a challenge, thank you for the in-depth discussion of exactly what irks you the most and what can alleviate them. My idea was to have subset numbers on certain tiles that if that number was rolled on a die and within the total move area then you could CHOOSE to stop there, low rolls would still be horrible, though it could be easily implemented on any games you currently held in contempt.

great job guys - very entertaining and spot on! nice one, Rick

Hidden information is one of the best ways to avoid the alpha player in coop games. I don't know Salem, but I suspect that this was the reason for the designer to add that rule...

I actually like the dice roll thing in monopoly (I mean there's no way you're deliberately gonna land on someone else his property if you can to some extend chose how much steps you're gonna take) but I hate it in trivial pursuit and other games where you need to trow an exact number in order to finish.

My family now plays Clue by a unique set of rules. We still do Roll to move, but we ignore the hallways completely. You roll, and can move clockwise or counterclockwise around the board that many rooms. It removes completely the ability some players have of keeping you from ever doing ANYTHING in that game by keeping you from moving rooms, and at least lets everyone play.

Great episode. Definitely worth watching despite the long duration. I'll watch the Top 10 party games, just to see Sam's reactions.

The Top Tens, People's Choices Top 100 Games of All Time, Miami Dice, I really love the videos you do together.

Good stuff and Oh so true. Another enjoyable episode, well done gentlemen.

HOUSE RULES 1) Own Secret Units Look at your own secret units anytime you want - except on your own turn. Speeds play without impairing knowledge of own units. Works great for Titan. 2) Timed turns 30 second timer starts after first player is done with their turn. Works great for Robo Rally.

Nice summary @ the end for viewers who are short on time. Thanks!

Love you guys! Great videos!

Mad props to ya for mentioning Careers!

Sometimes I think the off-the-cuff style of these reviews/episodes works pretty well since we get to see the personalities playing off each other but... ugh, sometimes I really wish they'd prepare a little better. You've got the magic of multiple takes and video editing - it's ok to use it!

Artificial Catch-Up: Power Struggle uses this mechanism as a part of the game tactics. You need to be in last place often in order to take advantage of going first (a very big advantage). It is part of the game to try to stay behind as long as you can, until you are forced to go ahead (and then you try to get far ahead and push for the win). It is a neat mechanic as it encourages players to stay near each other in points until you have set up your master plan and can zoom ahead. Now the other player has the advantage of going first to try to catch you before you win the game. Artificial catch-up as a mechanic done really well.

The best series of programs you have made! The synergy between you too makes it all work. Hope that you will make a top 10 game list over games you can play together with your wife, because it's a cool way to spend time together. Thank you very much for your awesome programs.

Memory victory points: where victory points for each player is known public information, but has each player hides them after they receive them. It's just annoying having to play a memory game of who was ahead.

#8: in paper tales there's a card that can singlehandedly win you the game if you get it on round 1: the relic (can't die, at the end of the game get 2 vp for every age counter on it). And when you have it, your opponents are forced to make sub-optimal drafts to prevent you from getting age token synergy, which in turn helps you get better cards from the draft

A top 10 consensus video, awesome :P I did really enjoy it, and it made a lot of good points with strong examples. More games on design tips would surely be welcome.

GREAT shirt Sam! :-) Great hair Tom. Good job on the top ten again guys. Fun and informative as always. Please keep them coming!

I love to see you three together. It could be my daily show. It reminds me of RedLetterMedia's Half in the Bag somehow. Keep it up!

Awesome video guys!!! I feel like this is talk radio for gamers :)

As soon as "the rich get richer" mechanic was mentioned, I immediately thought of Outpost. Such a cool game concept that this problem mostly ruins. The last 2-3 turns are usually pointless because everyone already knows who is going to win. It was kind of amusing that Tom had trouble remembering the name of "that space mining game."

You guys are awesome!

Sam my gaming group does the exact same thing in Shadows Over Camelot! I still agree the rule is annoying and when playing Shadows without the Traitor mechanic we implemented a house rule where you just say what you have. Thanks for the posting this video!

Loved this!

this was the first of those top ten videos i watched to the end :)

I hate roll & move mechanics as well, but there's a reason games with them are so popular. Most of them are designed either for kids, or as super simple casual games that anybody can play without thinking too much about the game. There's a reason slot machines are the most popular games at the casino, people want the excitement of a random result, but not the weight of having to decide what to do.

I enjoy Roll and Move in some Vintage games. It is nice to just roll and move some pawns and take some actions. Some older games have some interesting mechanisms to make the roll and move not as painful.

On the subject of number 2 - artificial catch up mechanic, I'm pleased you softened it a little to say it's not inherently a bad idea. In videogames we call it 'rubber banding' and Mario Kart is the king. You only get good power ups if you're near the back. If all players get hit by lightning it lasts longer if you're more in the lead. And then there's the blue shell. It's the way you do it that matters.

Awesome vid - a few less games I need to add to my collection lol

I may not agree with everything you guys say but watching you guys talk about games is always interesting and entertaining.

You got a very heavy LIKE from me for the rampage at a little after the 20:00 mark!!

I've actually played a game that implemented the whole "random number of actions" well, and that's the (nowadays rather famous) Space Hulk. Only one side has this mechanic, and the number of extra actions is hidden to the other player. How it works is that every unit has a certain number of actions that it can use every turn, then you can spend extra actions during your turn to simply let your models take more actions. You can also save some actions and use those during the opponent's turn. As the number of extra actions are hidden, this forces you to try and figure out how many actions that it's likely that the other player saved and plan your moves accordingly. Overall, I found that mechanic to be really nice, as it added a lot of tension to the game.

I love Eldritch Horror, but I got nailed with several of these annoying mechanics earlier today. First, the game jacked up the difficulty in what I consider an artificial manner by forcing me to draw and resolve an additional mythos card, because one just wasn't enough. The repercussions of those two back to back mythos cards were that I became cursed, which meant I rolled a success on only a 6, and I became detained. And there wasn't a thing I could do about it. Because I was detained, I lost my entire turn, and then I spent 3 consecutive turns praying to get rid of my curse to no avail. And to make matters worse , because I was cursed, I failed a mandatory test and gained a paranoia condition, which consequently made me mad with insanity quite literally as I quit the game. Eldritch Horror might as well have played a single you lose card as I went from what seemed like 95% odds of winning down to 0% in an instant. I was sitting on the gate I needed to close with plenty of clue tokens and on the last mystery. My wife actually had 3 opportunities to roll a single success (50% chance x 3) and win us the game. She rolled a 1, a 2, and finally another 2 even though she was blessed. She was subsequently driven mad as well (in the game that is), which is what led me mad (outside of the game). I packed up the game and don't plan to unleash its horrors again for quite some time.

I'm frankly amazed that "random winner" mechanisms, such as in Killer Bunnies, didn't make their top 10.

Re-listening to the intro to this list - and the bit on mechanics vs mechanisms. Top 10 Annoying Pedantic Discussions in Gaming A. Mechanic vs Mechanism B. Rulebook v Rule Book v Rulesbook C. It Doesn’t Say I Can’t Do That D. Round v Turn v Action v Phase v Step E. When The Card Says Number of Cards, Does It Count Itself? There. I gave you half. :)

This was the heyday of Dice Tower top 10s

Oh man, gotta love being dazed as a tank in 4e. Leaders and Controllers generally have ranged stuff or don't need to worry about their personal position as much. A lot of strikers have a ranged option, and might be able to chaerg. Tanks basically get to spend the round fixing themselves a sandwich since the majority of what they do is opportunity or immediate actions.

So many people believe that Risk takes extremely long times to play, like 3-4 hours or even much longer... If you are taking over 2 hours for Risk, you are playing wrong. You are either in a room full of skittish players who are too scared to attack, or you are probably not following some of the rules correctly. In my experience, most games are over in 60-90 min, even with 5-6 players. The game is called Risk for a reason. You need to take risks to win.

I love what the game "That's Life" did with the Roll & Move mechanic!

I agree with your house rules for Survive nice editing (Outpost). Thanks.

I hate Risk, everyone builds up on the front line and once the other player punches through it then there's nothing you can do. They roll into your lands, take territory held by one unit with ten or fifteen guys, and they just keep going until they have to stop. Then they reinforce their new border with points taken from you so there's no hope in getting it back.

Artificial catch up mechanics / preventing elimination - Cyclades. The first time I played I took one of my friends starting islands at the start of the game. Because of the rule that you can't lose your last space he used the farming action repeatedly and easily won in the end.

I s incredibly agree about Trivial Pursuit. We only ever play this with a colored die. Roll a color, get a question, get a cheese! Sure there is still some luck involved when you only need one more color, but it's tons better than the full game, and we usually finish a game in 10-15 minutes, which is fantastic. T.

I love Careers, I picked it up at Goodwill for 2 bucks a couple years ago and it was much better than I expected.

very appropriate example of number 1: Pressure Matrix. Roll the die, move that many tiles, but you can't backtrack on yourself, you can't go through a blacked out tile, can't move through another player and you're rolling three dice. At first you're using the lower one, but as the pressure rises you have to use the higher dice. There's an illusion of choice with the tiles, but that's all it is, an illusion.

#3 roll for actions! I agree wholeheartedly. I LOVE Betrayal at house on the hill. But when I am the betrayer and my monsters get 0 movement on their turn because I roll poorly, I want to flip the table. It is the only mechanic in the game that makes absolutely no sense to me. I get that they want to make sure the monsters don't overwhelm the players by having too much movement, but thematically pick a number for movement that balances the monster's strength in other areas and with the average of the hero's green base movement. Why would my zombie look into a room with a hero and then just stand there... what happened in the house that causes my bats to fly faster and then slower from turn to turn, and yet effects none of the hero's... None of the hero's roll a die for movement, and none of the other monster attributes are die rolled per turn.... The worst part is that I CAN"T EVEN FIX THIS with a house rule, because I refuse to go through every encounter and read it so I can assign base movement to monsters and thus ruin the surprise for me when the haunt happens.... -Brian

I rmb an online strategy game with a really horrible catch-up mechanic, its called corruption, the more territory you hold, the less each territory produce, and with some math a huge problem came to light, a player with 120 territories produce less resources than someone with 30 territories when all other variants being equal

you should do a list of unwritten tabletop game rules. ex: don't leave the table when it's your turn and make everyone wait for you, be nice to the new player, don't roll the dice on the board because you knock over all the pieces (i've done that to everyone's dismay on settlers of catan). it would just be fun listening to your stories about people you've played with that drive you crazy.