[KENDO RANTS] - Dirty Tricks in Kendo? Bamboo vs Synthetic Do?

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The Kendo Show

The Kendo Show

5 жыл бұрын

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@catrionanicthamhais
@catrionanicthamhais 5 жыл бұрын
Excellent video. Thanks! Also, at one point ending near the 21 minute point I know for sure that if I had just come in right at that moment, I would have thought you were talking about fierce hockey parents back in Canada!
@Anathmatician
@Anathmatician 5 жыл бұрын
Not a question Andy -- Just a comment! Thanks for doing these videos. As someone with a more general interest in armed combat it’s been really great to find out more about Kendo. Great to here your opinions! I guess there are some areas of debate in any sport or martial art and it is really interesting to hear some of these explored. Thanks again for doing this series.
@mosescollierjr
@mosescollierjr 5 жыл бұрын
Thanks for the great videos Andy. We all appreciate it. I do shop at Kendostar a d look forward to receiving my most recent order! Yes, I'd like to see more materials, books etcetera. I think that would be great. Especially if there where translations of some of the works produced by the AJKF. Do you think it is in the works? Or is translation of materials even in their plans? What do you think it would take to get things like the grade book you have referred to translated? Also, the Kingston Kendo Club in Canada (just Google them) has a pretty nice textbook written about basic concepts and one for kata as well. Thanks again!
@vikingfan7710
@vikingfan7710 5 жыл бұрын
Thanks, Andy, for taking on my question - to be honest, I know the OP and some of the commentators on that thread, and it was also grinding my gears so to speak, but I wasn't sure if I was right/wrong as they are higher ranked than me in kendo. I agree that at full speed, it looked, sounded, and felt like an ippon on video...but again, who am I to judge? My follow-up question though was more around the theory of zanshin, and you may have answered it by saying that you attack with zanshin, and that it's not something that you add on afterwards. The argument posed is that you can't have zanshin without a valid strike - but my understanding is that zanshin and a valid strike are two separate concepts, and that in combination (along with other things), it makes "ippon." Is that accurate? Sorry for the all the questions; trying to reconcile what people ranked higher than me are saying to what I thought I had learned...thanks!
@ingramjones9296
@ingramjones9296 5 жыл бұрын
If you want better kendo at these types of tournaments then get shimpan who are not waiting for the Japanese athletes to score points.
@ottliteottlite9103
@ottliteottlite9103 5 жыл бұрын
I do not think shipan waiting for japanese to score points...to score points, you need meet 3 criteria, ki ken tai icchi (mean with strong kiai, proper cut and posture your body movement)...while the korean hitting and fumble on the floor that is poor kendo. One things also, in kendo never shown your enemy that you are tired, and most of korean kendoist showing that weakness in front of the opponents. I think the shinpan tried their best. I am suprise the shipan give the japanese hansoku instead of korean. I think good japanese 8 dan shinpan would be nice, but korean would think that is not fair. Most of korean strike do not have distance mae, and they are really tried to take advantage and every opportunity with bad kendo or I will said kendo with tricks. My sensei told me once korean kendo are good but they always perform unnecessary strike or they treat shinai just like a bambo not a sword.
@ingramjones9296
@ingramjones9296 5 жыл бұрын
Your reply and your sensei's words are typical. You've kind of proved my point. Just like your sensei these judges operate every wkc from the same flawed judgmental point of view. And again at every wkc the judges wait around for the Japanese athletes to score points. The wkc is on its way to being nothing more than an international circle jerk. I can see why they don't want it to become an Olympic sport.
@ottliteottlite9103
@ottliteottlite9103 5 жыл бұрын
In my point of view, japanese send professional players, and most of the country send amateur players, except korean (semi pro). In my opinion only korean that can really beat japanese, and match more fun to watch because the intesity. Korean has the spirits and japanese kendo is better. I agreed with you, they should change rules about limit time tsubaria and get penalty for that. I watched women japan and korean fight, much better they maintain mae and more strike. I personally hope that one day korean able to win WKC against japan. USA beat japan one time who knows. I just disagreed with your comment about the judges / shinpan wait for japanese to score points. Anyway, I personally prefer ji geiko than tournament match, kendo become stupid. Especially, I expect japanese do better, but they play for win.
@kentv5131
@kentv5131 5 жыл бұрын
fyi, Korean kendoka at that level are not semi pros but full time kendokas as well as their Japanese counterparts. Both countries are, I believe, the only countries where Kendo can be practiced at professional level and being full time occupation.
@ingramjones9296
@ingramjones9296 5 жыл бұрын
Thank you for stating that. I was going to inform him of the same thing but I can't be bothered with all these preconceived notions about Korean Kendo.
@Looka89
@Looka89 5 жыл бұрын
Hi Andy, I agree with you on the shinpan topic. I'd like to have a human with an intrinsic error rate, rather than a calculator assessing ippons. That's because yuko-datotsu is something humans created and only humans can understand. There could be thousands of way to strike in such a way that a computer will award the ippon, still without displaying correct kikentai. Yuko-datotsu raises from an interpretation, and only the flexible power of our associative prefrontal cortex can ensemble all the elements to do it. That said, human error happens. My question comes into what you said about the shinpan who have been selected to be there: you said they are the best of the world, and I agree indeed. But how is this selection made? Is an assessment about how good they are at refereeing (with false positives and negatives analysis), or is just a selection made about how "famous" they are in the shinpan environment? Just asking because even if one of the shinpan from the team final is actually one of my senseis (Arialdo Bolognesi), he never told me about what criteria are adopted while taking this selection. Thanks very much! Interesting topic
@skulduggerous
@skulduggerous 5 жыл бұрын
I love seeing you all winded up about some comments, haha. Not that I want to see you annoyed but sometimes I read just mind boggingly stupid arguments about exactly the stuff that you talk about (shinpan decisions in this case) and feel like we that state "You don't doubt the shinpan" are in the minority and that people just want instant replay and electronic scoring in order to achieve "perfectly refereed" matches. Plus, talking smack about - as you said - literally the best referees in the world, saying that they are trash and should be replaced. Thank you for not being shy about talking how out of place these kinds of discussions are. I enjoy every new rant episode, don't burn yourself out putting out so much of these :) Cheers!
@road121111
@road121111 5 жыл бұрын
To my surprise in the last wkc i have seen other kendok'a booing.
@dunedainrangers1309
@dunedainrangers1309 5 жыл бұрын
Many, many years ago, I took a couple of kendo classes. I met one of the kendoka who showed me that he had a pad on his elbow so he could block do shots, since the elbow wasn't a proper target (although in a real swordfight he would have lost his right arm). He seemed to be proud of his clever trick. I didn't continue my kendo studies after that.
@AryadiSubagio
@AryadiSubagio 5 жыл бұрын
Lol, if me or any of my kendo friends do that our sensei would be really mad. That's just sign of weak kendo and no willingness to improve, you should do a kaeshi waza or just hit your opponent before he can strike your do.
@djaxupjazz
@djaxupjazz 5 жыл бұрын
Aryadi Subagio , I can tell you that I wished I had a good comfortable elbow protector... I am a Kendo trainer for many years now and I can't count all the bad Doh's I've received from beginners or over-motivated players... I have serious health issues with my right arm due to that after all the years. It has not much to do with doing Kendo wrong on the side of the receiver.
@AryadiSubagio
@AryadiSubagio 5 жыл бұрын
@@djaxupjazz sorry to hear that, I commented based on my experience, and I don't have anything serious to hurt me because of a bad dou.
@tubbytoad
@tubbytoad 4 жыл бұрын
Sometimes especially in lower level shiai people will try to hit do hoping you will raise your arms to block or strike before they do. If you hold kamae when they do this they will slam your elbow and it can be quite painful if it hits the wrong place. On a side note if you want realistic sword fighting you should look at kenjutsu not kendo.
@jort93z
@jort93z 5 жыл бұрын
some people really believe the shimpan are some kind of superhumans able to see everything in super slow motion lol.
@polak806
@polak806 5 жыл бұрын
This is not tennis. I see what you did there :D
@gilbertogawa9372
@gilbertogawa9372 5 жыл бұрын
Hey Andry, I might expressed myself wrongly regarding the FIK rules for the crowd for manifesting during the shiai. Sorry if I have expressed in that way. What I meant was rules to force the teams to avoid this kind of behaviour from the competitors doing that sort of avoiding the tsubazeriai or the hooking thing, that I really disliked a lot (by awarding hansoku perhaps)? during the 90´s, if you were in tsubazeriai and stay for a long time with your shinai at the opponent´s sholder, blocking his actions, this could be awrdaded hansoku. The Shinpan just raise in to hansoku position and the shushin stops the match and request gogi to verify that. The same if the opponent comes hard for a strike, you block it, but then immdiatelly you go on purpose and use your left hand and make the movement or sort of punch upward to his hands in contact time to intentionally provoke his unbalance or even to generate the trap effect (the opponedt normally goes to the floor though). This was considered hansoku by that time, just to give some examples. Today I don´t know if these are hansoku anymore as all of them do that though. I must recognize that I have done that myself a lot of times, having awarded hansoku, but it part of the tactic right? But in the end, I got your point and thanks a lot for sharing your thoughts on that, I really appreciate it, and please do not feel like with hand tied on your back, as the intention never was and never will be that, and if fact was to know more oppinions and in a different and updted view over the modern kendo rules, as I ´m from the old kendo generation, with a different/traditional mindset. Thanks for taking my long texts and sharing your thoughts in the rant. Cheers
@gilbertogawa9372
@gilbertogawa9372 5 жыл бұрын
Funny that if you see the All Japan Kendo Championship and the 8 dan Championship, they are real shiais too and the kendo there is a pleaseure to see (dunno if thei carreers are at stake there too though). They are also tactical, the technic is also very, but very high and in the All Japan Kendo Championship, it is very phisical too right? There you can have matches betwween a 3 Dan and 6 Dan for example (see Umegatani vs Nishimura during his campaign for his first title). The fight as very tactical, phisical too and Nishimuira won by hansoku and this was somewhat controvertial but in the end, nobody said it was unfair. It was by the rules, do you get my point? I did not sense any trick or hidden strategy exposed for he crowd view anywhere (at least from what I have seen so far), so why the difference then?. I do acknowledge that a lot of them are policeman but not all of them right? Takenouchi is not from the Police core right? my point was why there is an clear discrepancy on what you see in the WKC and All Japan Championship in terms of kendo itself? Because we are talking pros vs amateurs . Of course, it involves, different people, culture, climate, whatever, but in the end, it is kendo right? It was a pleaseure to see Serbia playing well, Chinese Taipei, USA too, I really enjoy the kendo they have played. Phisical? Yes. Tactical, Yes. Unfair? No. It was simply kendo, and that was fine with me. On the other hand, It is clear for me that Japan using pros for WKC makes thing way too hard to win it. How about doing the same as NBA in the past where the pros cannot play in the Olympics or World Championships I guess (today is different I know), and to provide only Daigaku student instead? The have already the All Japan Championship and the one for the Police (which I also don´t like it). Share with us you thoughts about that (oh, and no hands tied behind your back ok?) If you feel not comfortable, fine if you skip that. Tks a lot! And sorry for generating so much discussion on your rant.
@ottliteottlite9103
@ottliteottlite9103 5 жыл бұрын
I feel that your Kendo Rants kinda like someone tied your hand behind your back...its not free from your mind, I felt that your tried to be polite and stick with traditional japanese kendo, mean while according to you this is SHIA for winning nothing to do with traditional. (But again, I understand...thank you for your Kendo Rants always very interesting). I just feel kendo need more commentator in english so others understand what is going on during the match. This is in japanese match with japanese commentator...kzfaq.info/get/bejne/aLuoq8580t7Og2Q.html (match eiga vs miyazaki as example)
@SwedishViking1988
@SwedishViking1988 5 жыл бұрын
If it's not traditional japanese Kendo.. is it then really Kendo? Where's the line when you move out from the style? Imo, to encourage traditional japanese Kendo should be the only way to do it.
@ottliteottlite9103
@ottliteottlite9103 5 жыл бұрын
my best experience about kendo is jigeiko. Everyone know kendo in WKC is towards more sport kendo, instead of the traditional mind set. I agreed with you, the traditional japanese kendo, winning is not important, but more like how you perfected your proper strike, or mind set. Martial arts just do not mixed well with competition, only duel, less issues, only one winner come out.
@morerice4767
@morerice4767 5 жыл бұрын
Unruly spectators could be kicked out of the arena?
@rajamicitrenti1374
@rajamicitrenti1374 5 жыл бұрын
Armchair shinpan-ing...
@ottliteottlite9103
@ottliteottlite9103 5 жыл бұрын
this also one of the video with english translation...i think very helpful for young kendoist. kzfaq.info/get/bejne/gbNgn5lzud7Rpp8.html (eiga vs miyazaki). Once again thank you, maybe you can make video with your comment during the match, I think it will helps the kendoist outside japan.
@gpark09
@gpark09 4 жыл бұрын
There's one good way to improve on all the rants about ruling and judging. Have Kendo in Olympic. Look how much Judo and Taekwondo have gotten through Olympic. And don't give me that Kendo should be practiced in Do way not a sport way. It's been a part of sport for long time.
@TheKendoShow
@TheKendoShow 4 жыл бұрын
Gregory Park perhaps, but it’s not going to happen.
@soar07
@soar07 5 жыл бұрын
I remember you in the other video saying that referees could be biased. Not sure why you’re contradicting yourself here. ‘That looked like kote to me, shinpan must have seen it as kote as well so it’s kote’ is a very weak argument. THIS IS kind of like tennis. Kendo competition is more like Wimbledon. There’s certain tranditions you need to follow. There’s a tight dress code, everybody needs to be quiet during plays, disrespect to referees will get you punished (look at the Serena’s recent match) and so on. Those referees have life time experience but still makes wrong calls. WKC is a disgrace to the sport. I’m all for the ki ken tai ichi spirit and as a kendoka we all thrive on reaching the best we can be. But trying to hold on to the tradition will only make worse of the sport. Hey, don’t get me wrong. I’m not defending Korean men’s team nor the crowd. I was there and it was horrible to see the crowd booing and yelling during the fight. To their defence, it was just another sport. They seem to take kendo more casual and less serious than most of us who train it. We desperately need a video referee on this kind of world event or at least some kind of solution to this issue. Shinpans are only human even if they’re 8th dan which is the highest level you can achieve in kendo. Somebody argued that shinpan have more experience judging than most of the people who are actually training kendo so we should trust their judgement calls. In fact, all referees across all sports have life long experience. But when there’s a video evidence showing what really happened, life long experience goes out the window. I’m not saying shinpans are useless. Most of time they make pretty good calls. Three shinpan is not enough. When you’re on the floor as a referee there is an on going pressure of the shiai. You have to be able to call out the points correctly, quickly. Sometimes you’re influenced by other shinpan who put up their flag first even though you try you’re best to see the game in objective view. Because you’re human. Humans cannot be objective. Just imagine that there is a match between takanabe, the fastest men striker of all time, fighting against some guy with 6th dan nobody heard of. Of course you’re going to have a biased view. When things are neck and neck, all sorts of grey area and shinpan’s biased judgement call plays a HUGE role. Japanese are always the crowd favorite , Some foreign team brings so call ‘dirty kendo’ style to the tournament. People hate it. Which flags will be lighter to the referees? As a westerner myself it’s easy to have fascination and fantasies about kendo as some mystical asian martial arts. But kendo is not about a mystical japanese martial art looking down on other fighting sports out in the world just because all they seem to care about is winning and modern technology. All fighting sports have their own set of rules. Kendo is just one of them. We have to admit that kendo shiai is a sport. Notice I said kendo shiai. Kendo itself can be a martial art, way of the sword, fighting spirit, bushido or whatever you’d like it to be. But whenever there’s specific set of rules with referees, it is a sport. period. Modern day kendo imitates what was real back in ancient times when there were people with real swords with no rules. We need to let go of tradition and embrace the change. People often say ‘this is the way it supposed to be’. It’s not true. Things change and evolve as circumstances change, as time passes. It’s just another excuse to rest on the laurels. Because to those people it means upsetting the fundamental underlying principles of teaching kendo. Only it’s not. We say we want to improve because we’re not perfect. It’s just easy to say ‘O it’s all about being human’ when we’re wrong and ‘I told you so’ when you’re right. But aren’t we contradicting ourselves by thinking in certain way just because we’re taught a certain way? Kendo is governed by a very formal, top-down heirachical, bureaucratic organization. Just think about how much our thoughts are governed by traditions and rules. Am I the only one who thinks like this?
@ottliteottlite9103
@ottliteottlite9103 5 жыл бұрын
i gave same comment to our friend Ingram Jones, but I am not sure you are gonna read it. anyway, this is my point of view.. I do not think shipan waiting for japanese to score points...to score points, you need meet 3 criteria, ki ken tai icchi (mean with strong kiai, proper cut and posture your body movement)...while the korean hitting and fumble on the floor that is poor kendo. One things also, in kendo never shown your enemy that you are tired, and most of korean kendoist showing that weakness in front of the opponents. I think the shinpan tried their best. I am suprise the shipan give the japanese hansoku instead of korean. I think good japanese 8 dan shinpan would be nice, but korean would think that is not fair. Most of korean strike do not have distance mae, and they are really tried to take advantage and every opportunity with bad kendo or I will said kendo with tricks. My sensei told me once korean kendo are good but they always perform unnecessary strike or they treat shinai just like a bambo not a sword.
@ottliteottlite9103
@ottliteottlite9103 5 жыл бұрын
Regarding kote points....I think hard to judge because we are not in court, maybe missing one of the criteria or 2 of the shinpan didnt see. We watched thru video which we can stop or repeat as we want to see more details. Shinpan job not easy, have you become shinpan in kendo for tournaments....you have to keep moving while maintain triangle formation, and still have to focus on strike (on live fighting), need alot of consentration). The kote to me too deep, not using correct part of shinai, just because we have different opinion do not make the shinpan not very good. We just not there close enough to experience it.
@goutlard2224
@goutlard2224 5 жыл бұрын
"We need to let go of tradition and embrace the change." Most random people don't watch the Hanshi doing demonstrations. They don't watch the embu, or the high-quality jigeiko. They watch the competitions. Are we sure that this is the Kendo we want to display ?
@TheKendoShow
@TheKendoShow 5 жыл бұрын
Hi! Great comment, thank you! It's a little too long for me to read out in the video - but I appreciate your point of view. I can see how I may appear to have contradicted myself over the remark about Shinpan being biased. I should have been more clear - My previous point was that I believe that it is impossible to entirely eliminate absolute unintentional bias from human Shinpan, all of the time. My point in this video is that I do not believe that the Shinpan were intentionally biased towards the Japanese team. As a further point, I do not think that these referees hold a particular unintentional bias in favour of either team - again, just my opinion. In other words, yes - sometime referees are unintentionally bias - but not ALL referees in EVERY tournament. Also, I am not sure how my statement that, at full speed it looks like Kote, and as the judges awarded Kote it therefore is Kote is a weak 'argument'. Not that I am arguing anything - it's just how it is. If the rules were different, then sure there's an argument to say it could be appealed or argued with - but it was not an obvious mistake by the referees, and with the rules as they are, that's just how it is. Although I agree that this is an imperfection of Kendo Shinpan, I am not in support of having additional referees, or a video reply. I am quite happy with them as they are, even if it means that mistakes are made. Personally, I am happy with the WKC as it is, and its overall role in Kendo in general - despite some of the imperfections that arise from it - and whether I thought that or not, the likelihood of it changing is extremely small in any case. Thanks again, Andy
@soar07
@soar07 5 жыл бұрын
Of course there won’t be any kind of video referee system. Not in a million years. General consensus (at least among kendo community) will not be happy with video referee (or any kind of new system for that matter) as much as that they don’t like kendo not to be in the olympics. Even if there was a video referee I'm not sure if I'll be happy with it to be honest. I was just ranting because we face the same problem every time. Maybe someday we’ll have fast/accurate enough referee system in the future so that there’s no debating about it.Thanks for your replying to some random guy with random opinion :)
@ingramjones9296
@ingramjones9296 5 жыл бұрын
Lots of back handed comments in this video rant.
@ingramjones9296
@ingramjones9296 5 жыл бұрын
You are ranting and cape-ing for the Japanese team mate.
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