Thief’s reflexes specifically states it can’t be used when surprised.

@@freekedit7007 I missed your comment (and the last sentence of the feature). I've corrected myself. Thank you!

LOL that's perfect

@@FlutesLoot it was hilarious.

Lol I actually had recorded a bit about this in the video but it didn't make the cut. Hunting trap's wording is so weird since it doesn't describe how to anchor it, just set it. It could be a useful tool if the DM is cool with it and Fast Hands. :) I do talk about hunting trap in my article.

just be aware of the weight. 25 pounds might be heavy enought that you cannot use strength as your dump stat anymore...

@@Konkajou this is why you try and get your hands on a bag of holding as fast as possible

I've always wanted to use a Hunting trap as an improvised weapon so it latches onto somebody, and then cast "Heat Metal" on said hunting trap.

Yes! Blindsense + Smoke Grenade is fantastic, and I'd love to see DMs enable grappling hooks.

I interpret the Thief's use of scrolls in the same way. It's one of the only ways that ignoring "level" is relevant for Use Magic Device. A Thief can cast from any scroll without having to roll. As I wrote in my spell scroll article, "...regarding spell level in spell scrolls. It is difficult for a character to activate a spell scroll that contains a spell of level that exceeds the character’s spellcasting ability (higher-level spell than what the character can cast with its spell slots). The DMG requires characters in this scenario to roll ability checks with spellcasting modifiers to attempt successful casting. On a failure, the spell within the scroll fades away forever as the spell fails to take effect." If the Thief can ignore level requirements, I'd say that works with spell scrolls!

@@FlutesLoot It's a monster ability if your DM allows it (and gives you some fun scrolls to play with). Also amazing on an Artificer - who get criticised for being half casters but who can freely use all spell scrolls as well from level 14 (Magic Item Savant).

Solidifies the rogue as the overall best class really. They are past experts in every skill, casters, damage dealers. The only issue is number of attacks.

@@FlutesLoot This seems to be the correct interpretation based on how the feature got reworded in onednd

@@Razdasoldier good point!

Oh! I missed that detail. Thank you for pointing it out. I'll have to look that up and update my article.

I agree that Second-Story Work is very useful. Climbing can be as good as flight in many circumstances.

I was thinking more of archers on a rampart or rooftop firing down. Parkour up the wall and attack them. They have to draw swords or do a ranged attack while in melee with you, which is a bad time for them. Either you cut them down or they have to stop firing at your friends to deal with you. Since you would have the Mobile feat you could freely move after attacking too as you don't provoke opportunity attacks from any creature you've attacked this turn. They'll have to chase you, an opponent faster than them, while your friends make their way up safely . Of course you could also throw some acid or alchemist's fire on them too while you're at it.

It can be so much fun to play. I love the Rogue playstyle. I'm glad I could inspire you for when you bring back your character! :)

Notable: It does also give you a spell casting modifier so it makes the things that use it work better.

@@Razdasoldier very fun :)

Clutch! That sounds like a creative, fun experience as a Thief.

@@FlutesLoot Oh definitely. What makes it even more hilarious is that I am typically a caster player. I have a lot of characters in my head that are primarily casters(personal favorites are wizards and bards) and with those, I typically play conservative at lower levels, using my magic at critical points rather than all the time. It's a common trap for players to only focus on the limited abilities of the class and almost never look at the miscellaneous stuff that's also in their pack, which to me is doing the items a disservice. Can do quite a bit with your stuff if you just think about it a little.

Sure thing, thanks for the comment :)

I'm so glad to hear that! Thief is so fun. Go get em!

The little bombs aren't very effective, but they are a BARGAIN! :P I'd love to see them played.

Fantastic! Please let me know how it goes. I definitely know you can get your hands on a few interesting items for Thief Rogues in that campaign ;) I also have a Curse of Strahd video or two that your DM may enjoy if they haven't watched em alreayd.

@@FlutesLoot We are pretty far along in Strahd by now, and my character already has 6 levels in Rogue (Thief) and 4 in Sorcerer. But I've got a few things that might be handy (a box of scorpions, for instance), and I will keep my eyes out for more stuff that I can use in this way. I will mention your Strahd videos my DM. Who knows, it might have been looking at those that led him to this Thief Rogue video. I have no idea how much of our campaign so far is stock and how much is custom. But he can probably get some good ideas from them.

Absolutely

It is pretty wacky! I love the idea of a fire-immune, immolated character haha!

You're welcome, and good luck playing :)

Yeah! My DPR calculations did not assume such perks, but they would help a lot! :D

That sounds really fun haha

My goal was to give it a second look and make it more interesting :)

I highly recommend giving it a shot. Rogues may lack some of the powerhouse tools that other classes have, but they are fun to play once you settle into their style. I've played more Rogue characters than any other class because I enjoy them. :)

@@FlutesLoot my first character was an arcane trickster and that was a blast. I should have said I worry about playing a thief specifically.

I'll gladly receive those points :P

Certainly both! :P

Totally!

I hadn't thought of using Minor Conjuration in this way! Definitely DM dependent.

Yes, and the BA for Sleight of Hand is something I talk about more in my article, and especially in another article/video about taking down archmages. Taking arcane focuses and components can win the battle.

You're right, a few other comments sorted me out on that one.

I love to hear it!

It's one of the most unique subclasses that interacts with some of the least-used 5e game mechanics; I love that :)

Sneak attack is with finesse weapons or a ranged weapon. Considering that there is no "Ranged" property on weapons, the only reasons you can tell them apart from non-ranged weapons is the range between parenthesis. Which improvised weapons have. You can argue that this does not count though, as otherwise you would be attacking at disadvantage any enemies within 5 ft with your improvised weapon. It looks like no, they don't count for sneak attack. However, this entire topic is not clear at all. For example, you make an improvised attack with alchemist fire, but do you make the initial improvised weapon attack of 1d4 and then add the fire damage? Or does the fire damage replace the improvised weapon damage? The answer changes how using the catapult spell works when throwing alchemist fire too. It is very unclear. Interesting enough, one part of sharp shooter cares only about making ranged attacks. So you can technically take it and keep yourself at a 60ft distance without disadvantage when throwing your alchemist fire.

Yeah absolutely

I'd start here and then possibly make my own Excel sheet: www.dndbeyond.com/equipment

Real good

That's a great point! I had not considered Sharpshooter's benefits with the range of ranged weapons. I'm going to add that to my article summary for feat benefits.

Those are Eberron options you're referencing, right? I'm not as familiar with those.

@@FlutesLoot the dragonmarked gnome is yes. The Archivist was like first publication of the class I believe. If you are not making scrolls constantly the subclass is sorta meh.

Harengon would be fantastic, and those feats are all on the table! It will depend on the player's desire to specialize. Will they want to maximize the efficiency of attacks with improvised weapons or focus on securing opportunity attacks each round? It's all up to the player.

That's certainly what I would do! I'd also recommend checking out the Alchemist class that Indestructoboy is about to post on the DM's Guild.

@@FlutesLoot what do you think about combining this with the mobile feat? Hit the enemy with your action, chain them up or drop a bomb with you ba and then run away without having them hit you with an oa

@@AngelCanseco1 If I wanted to use melee tactics with the Thief, I'd probably take Mobile.

@@FlutesLoot works well with a sling funnily enough, sling has a very short range of 30, so you can lob potions and also use a sling attack. Midgard heroes improves a lot on slings for kobolds and even whips get a great upgrade

Yep, well said.

I completely agree. It's a great way to play the subclass.

@@FlutesLoot Great multiclass too 😀

Hi Kyle! I factored in opportunity attack chance, but only with a 5% chance since I'm not very optimistic about getting opportunity attacks in a given round. It's not a scientific 5%, just an estimate that I thought wouldn't inflate the DPR too much but would still consider it. I did not factor in the two turns in the first round of combat because I didn't think of a way to calc that in a way that I'd be happy with. I think it's safe to say that we'd be 50% over baseline factoring it in though. Basically, I'm ultra-reserved on these calcs and they still look great. :) If you think I can improve these assumptions, I'd happily hear the ideas. I still need to wrap my head around DPR when resources are spent for a group that has one combat per day vs a group with eight per day (gonna take a while for me to get there).

Then I've done my job! :P

I definitely meant to mention spell scrolls. Sorry if I forgot them! Being able to use any spell scroll can be huge.

That's the debatable part. It's a ranged weapon attack, but not a ranged weapon. The DM would need to approve Sneak Attack with ranged improvised weapon attacks, but it's not of critical importance to the Thief to deal SA with IWs. I talk about this nuance more in my article than I did in the video.

Playing a Thief is an incredibly unique experience that lends itself well to creative players :)

Sounds SO fun! :D

I believe the intent of ignoring character level in the Use Magic Device feature is suited to using spell scrolls without having to roll to succeed in using them.

If you have any spellcasting modifier, you'll use that. Magic Initiate is a great way to gain a spellcasting modifier.

That would be strange to me since those requirements are only mentioned in attunement. The feature would do almost nothing if it didn't work for attunement. I'll look it up later to see if there is an answer.

I think you have misunderstood one another. The way Flutes talked about the feature in the video could have given the impression that he believes the feature subverts the need to attune at all, but that could be a misunderstanding. The feature does ignore the Attunment restrictions to race and class, however it doesn't ignore Attunment entirely. So a Thief could attune to a holy avenger without needing to be a Paladin. Also, there is a consensus that Thief Rogues can use the Holy Avenger as if they had 18 levels in Paladn (gaining the full 30ft aura). I'm not personally too sure about that but it could be considered a "level requirement"

@@Calavid ah you may be right. What I meant to portray is that attunement rules still apply, but some of the states restrictions on whom can attune to an item is ignored by the Thief. Still need to attune to use the items in question.

Interesting point!

Hog-tied! Since there aren't rules for tying up an active enemy, your DM might not even require you to shove them :P I think the assumption is that they'd be restrained. Rope also only has 2 hitpoints and can be burst with a DC 17 Strength check, so that might make it less fantastic. While we're at it, we can talk about manacles since their description is mega-vague. Maybe you could manacle someone mid-combat!

This sounds like what I previously pictured a Monk to be back in pre-5e days. Very cool.

I think that's fair! Aside from that ruling, it was pointed out that there is actually a rule in the DMG for this predicament. "The DMG chapter on magic items, under Activating an Item -> Spells, explains how to calculate the DC for spells cast from items. It actually uses the specific example of a Thief with Use Magic Device. Basically, your spellcasting ability modifier is just +0."

@@FlutesLoot wouldn't it than be better to just learn 1 or 2 spells via feat (maybe 1 that requires save dc or spell attack?) Now you have a defined save dc which will make easier to cast a spell and have other fail the save.

@@woutvanostaden1299 haha yep exactly. I'd still check how a DM would interpret that, but learning even one spell might make the Thief's effectiveness improve for magic items.

😅

The short answer is no. Unlike weapons, a shield requires an action to gain its benefits or unequip it. It's not specified if it's an established action to do it, so it's a unique action. Rule otherwise if you wish, but a shield would be less useful if any commoner could walk up and interact to remove it. That feels more odd to me.

I was not inspired by that video, but thank you for bringing it up so I can watch it! Drow Bard is not a channel I've encountered before. I'll check out their stuff with your recommendation.

It will heavily depend on DM interpretation, but I personally rule it in the following way: if the item says the dice it rolls on impact, I'd probably use that dice instead of the default 1d4, treating it as an override of the default. If impact damage isn't specified, I'd use 1d4 default.

wait, does this work?😯

@@MarceloNashiro If you can find a way to attack outside of your action, absolutely. I play a battlemaster/swashbuckler atm and regularly use either action surge to ready one action, or a maneuver like brace or riposte to get off a second sneak attack. Completely legal rules as written. If your DM has an issue with it just add up the damage a great weapon master barbarian or a sharpshooter archer does over an adventuring day and show them that compared to yours, they will realise you're just barely keeping up and chill.

Correct! If your DM allows you to get Sneak Attack with ranged improvised weapons (definitely ask first), you could then use your action to use the Ready action and make an attack for another dose of Sneak Attack during the round using your reaction.

I believe this is a case where it's a game thing, not a realism thing.

@@FlutesLoot Yes, it is just a Balance question. But it can raise hilarious moments when player says "I use my bonus action to interact with it." Rules as Written if it is Magical you can't do so 😏 so you will ALWAYS know if an object is magical or not 😉 just a loop hole within the rules. Tough we agree we don't cheese like that becasue it is not that fun. Also if trap has magical components you can't pull the leaver because it would be interacting with magic. Can't open doors if they have magical locks because technically it would be action to interract with magical item 😆

Totally reasonable

It's completely changed in the One D&D UA. It disappoints me

This exact question should be part of every session zero. No doubt.

The Hadozee will be an interesting addition to the game!

I agree that it can be interpreted this way, and probably should be. I encourage players in my article to ask their DMs how they'll rule it. It's not actually a huge deal for this subclass and its damage output.

Thos would mean that a thrown dagger does not do sneak attack

Also the holy avenger.

The Shadar-Kai can Trance to gain proficiency with weapons, so as a DM, I'd allow it for specific improvised weapons (not all). I'm not confident in an official ruling since there seems to be a difference between an actual weapon and just anything that can be an improvised weapon, but it won't break the game to allow a player to add proficiency to a few flask tosses. :)

Other idea: Commission someone to make “vials” that are DESIGNED to be thrown with groves molded along the sides for better grip or they get attached atop a club like a German grenade stick (though this may be similar enough to a hand axe, which doesn’t have Finesse, so that’s a problem). Commissioned “vials” that resemble daggers or darts?

@@Living_Life242 now we're talkin!

fera spell?

Heart of gold with sticky fingers :P

@@FlutesLoot I did however go Variant Human. Took Crossbow Expert for the feat. (Characters background was he learned to master the Hand Crossbow hanging out with a goblin gang as a little kid) Took the Sharpshooter feat at level 4. Bumped DEX +2 at level 8. Piercer feat at level 10 (DEX +1), and then finally maxed out his DEX at level 12 with the Skill Expert feat. I love playing this character. I never fail Sleight of Hand or Stealth checks. And I rarely ever miss with my Hand Crossbow. Great class. So much utility.

@@KyleKoz13 that's what I love about Rogues. They're my style.

Magic Mini Fireballs in a bottle then ;)

@@FlutesLoot Haha, I catch your drift: Reflavoring is indeed awesome! But to me, flavor is less of an issue than the fact that these modern weapons are quite a bit stronger than their medieval counterparts. I mean, craftable grenades that deal 5D6 piercing damage play kinda in the same ballpark as hunting rifles that deal 2D10 piercing damage.

So far, I hate it. I'll probably stream about it soon.

@@FlutesLoot I’m going to be real with you - I saw this video for the first time 3 days ago, then saw the Thief rework and now I’m trying to reconcile your brilliant subclass breakdown with this set of potential changes.

@@TylerCummings6 I appreciate you thinking of me in these dark times, lol

I wish you well with the fun subclass!

That's one way to do it

@@FlutesLoot That's RAW how you do it. "A magic item, such as certain staffs, may require you to use your own spellcasting ability when you cast a spell from the item. If you have more than one spellcasting ability, you choose which one to use with the item. If you don’t have a spellcasting ability - perhaps you’re a rogue with the Use Magic Device feature - your spellcasting ability modifier is +0 for the item, and your proficiency bonus does apply" (DMG, p.141)

​@@greatgyatso5429 Tbh, I was in an airport when I saw your comment and couldn't remember if it was the RAW :P I thought I updated this in the artcle after another similar comment, but I don't see it. Thanks for pointing it out so I can make the update!

Oops, missed the note by Jeremy Crawford at the 2:45 mark where it mentions DEX modifier as damage bonus for improvised weapons like Alchemist Fire.

I didn't overlook that. I wasn't wondering about per-turn damage. I want to know the duration, which people often conflate with the burning on the ground option, which I do not find clear. Even if someone feels confident in how they read it and apply it, it is objectively unclear for mass use.

@@FlutesLoot You must be a ADB Starfleet Battles player (if something is not SPECIFICALLY stated in the rules, it CANNOT be done in the game). 😛Either that or for some reason this detail (or more more precisely lack of detail) regarding the burn time for oil has got you stuck. 🤔 Your issue is that you believe the 2-turn burn time for oil poured on the ground is being conflated to mean that it has a 2-turn burn time when covering a creature... and for some reason you find that duration unsuitable, and that there has to be a specific burn duration to reflect the particular situation of an oil-covered creature vs. an oil covered patch of ground. This is one of those things where individual DM's and players could potentially make logical arguments for or against longer or shorter burn time based on the situation, real-world physics and chemistry behind fire science, and a whole host of details that WOTC doesn't cover in the game rules... which is why they leave it up to the DM's to make the call. Imagine if a player character was the one struck by oil and then lit by a fired-based attack, how do you think that argument would go between a DM and a player who knows that a second turn of taking 5 damage from burning oil and another hit could drop his character? PC: "I was splashed, there's no way the whole pint of oil got on me, it shouldn't burn for 2 turns." DM: "Some of the oil would have soaked into your clothing and that would technically start to burn with the oil" PC: "I'm wearing full plate, its metal and cant catch on fire." DM: "Full plate has a suit of padded cloth armor under the chainmail and plates, the oil can reach the cloth through the gaps in the plates and chain links." PC: "But we got caught in the rain just before entering the goblin cave, and it would still be wet and can't catch on fire." DM: "Remember the Wizard used Prestidigitation to dry out everyone so their equipment wouldn't get ruined." PC: "Can I put the flames out before taking the 5 damage next turn?" DM: "You can try to do Stop, Drop, and Roll for 10-20 (1d10+10) rounds (1-2 minutes), you wont take damage from the burning oil, but you'd be prone and unable to move more than 5 feet or take any other actions until the fire is out." In this case the reality of the portion of the splash that missed the character is countered by the reality of other fuel (cloth underpadding) for the fire. Using the 2-turn burn time described for burning oil on the ground to also serve as the burn time when splashed on a creature isn't conflating the two it is a reasonable assumption to imply that, in general, a pint of oil covering a surface (whether an organic creature or inorganic floor) will provide enough fuel to burn for 12 seconds (2 rounds) before going out. Even the burning duration regarding to oil poured on the ground can be called into question, the rules state the surface has to be level to cover the square, a 5x5 foot area. The thing is the rules don't address the details of what the surface in made of or what else might be on it. 🤔Can oil be poured on porous sands of a beach or desert and still be lit on fire? Would the partial absorption of oil into the packed dirt of a path or road act as a wicking structure that slows the burn rate and allow for 3 turns of burning instead of 2 as mentioned in the rules. What about wooden floors? What if its a stone floor but its by a window with floor-length drapes in the same square? Do the curtains catch fire? Oil and water don't mix. If an enemy or PC pours oil on top of a container and lights it on fire to hide an object or keep someone from reaching in and grabbing it, how long does in burn then since it is covering an area less than 5x5 feet? How high do the flames rise when a thin covering of oil burns over a large surface area like a 5x5 foot square? Everyone gets caught up different sticking points in the rules regrading specifics to a situation, evidently burning oil on a creature vs. on a surface was your quirk. As a fellow DM, I suggest just using the 2-turn burn time as an appropriate base duration whether on a creature or on a surface.👍 Trust me, there's a much bigger headache from the million other things to figure out regarding how fire is supposed to work in D&D 5E with all the possible situations and tactics players may employ. The some of the rules inconsistency was even covered in a video by Bob The Worldbuilder kzfaq.info/get/bejne/aNhhks52zM-bpqM.html

@@FlutesLoot Your video did inspire a new homebrew item though, thought you'd get a kick out of it and maybe use it in your games. Figured I'd put it here in a separate comment so more people can easily find it rather than reading through the longer initial comment. WIZARD'S OIL BOMB🧙‍♂💣 A batch of 6 of these can be made with 1 candle and 6 flasks of oil. They are made by inserting a piece of candle into the stopper in the neck of the flask, with the candle wick on the inside. The air gap within the flask can provide 10-12 seconds (2 rounds) of burnable oxygen. The item can still be used in all regards as a normal oil flask, but anyone with Prestidigitation can employ the device in the following way: ACTIVATION TURN (Turn 1): On your turn, you an use 1 action to cast Prestidigitation lighting the candle inside the flask, you may choose to hand off the activated flask to an ally within 10 feet, if they have a free hand. The flask must be deployed before the end of your next turn. DEPLOYMENT TURN (Turn 2): Before the end of your turn following activation, you or the ally you handed the flask to must use an action to either throw the flask by hand or launch it with the use of the Catapult spell, otherwise it becomes an "Inert Oil Bomb" (see below). If thrown it is subject to the improvised weapon rules and is limited to the 20/60 range increments and can target a creature or a 5 foot square. If targeting a creature with a successful hit, the thrown flask does 1d4 + DEX modifier in bludgeoning damage + 5 fire damage when it strikes. If the Catapult spell is used to launch the flask at a creature it does 3d8 bludgeoning (as per the spell rules) + 5 fire damage for the burning oil on a successful hit. If targeted at the ground, whether thrown by hand or launched by the Catapult spell, the target square is set ablaze and per the normal oil rules will do 5 damage to any creature that enters the square on their turn or ends their turn in the square. MISSED TARGET: If the attack roll misses the intended target, the DM must determine where it actually strikes using whichever random miss tables they may rule by. The Wizard Oil Bomb will still set ablaze the square (or possibly creature) it lands on after missing the intended target. BURNING TURN (Turn 3+): Creatures previously struck continue to burn and take another 5 fire damage. While burning, any additional Wizard Oil Bombs or normal Oil Flask that successfully strike the creature before the end of your 3rd turn will each add 2 more turns of burning. Any turn the creature is considered burning will add 2 turns to the duration for each Wizard Oil Bomb or normal Oil Flask that strikes it on subsequent turns. INERT OIL BOMB: If the activated flask is not broken open (by throwing or catapulting at a target creature or area) by the end of your second turn the flame uses up the oxygen in the flask and it becomes and inert oil bomb. While in this state is reverts to a normal oil flask and can only be used as such unless it is reinitialized. The device can be reinitialized by using an action to briefly open the stopper and introduce new air into the flask for a moment before closing the stopper again. PRESTIDIGITATION ONLY: Prestidigitation is the only cantrip capable of igniting candles. Druidcraft cannot ignite candles only extinguish them and Thaumaturgy only manipulates flames that are already lit.

@@PGIFilms I like how it's clear that it can be perpetuated!

Since grenades are not improvised attacks and they specifically say they can be thrown 60 feet, that shouldn't be a problem :) Fragmentation Grenade: "As an action, a character can throw a grenade at a point up to 60 feet away. With a grenade launcher, the character can propel the grenade up to 120 feet away. Each creature within 20 feet of an exploding fragmentation grenade must make a DC 15 Dexterity saving throw, taking 5d6 piercing damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one."

Well said! I hope future D&D design options are less convoluted.

Pretty much

That sounds like a BLAST to play!

@@FlutesLoot Yeah. I talked about it on the Dungeon Dudes channel, and WOTC announced that they were gimping the build in One D&D shortly after that. I should apply for a job as a play tester. I don't think it's over powered, personally, because it relies on the Dungeon Master actually giving you access to the spells and items that make the build shine. The character is very, very easy to motivate, which is a great quality in a character. I love the fact that I was able to put together a subclass no one uses with a bunch of feats that no one uses and build a character so awesome they had to change the rules.

@@IanFooteBased it's absolutely satisfying to put together a build as you described :) and yeah I wasn't happy with WotC backing down on what makes the Thief cool in the playtesting. When one person sees a build/character as "dependent" on things, the DM could just see it as "easily motivated" haha.

@@FlutesLootI think they freaked out when they saw that this build basically gave the ability to use Healing Word twice a round for 2 sp per use without limitation and a movement speed of 100'. I think the optimal path for a fun build is variant human with ritual caster at level 1, fast hands at 3, tavern brawler at level 4, phantom steed at level 5, mounted combatant at level 8 and healer at level 10, then use all further ASI for increasing stats, but you could be casting two healing word per round at level 3 if that was what the party needed the most. I think Ritual Caster, by itself, is an incredibly cool feat. Everyone wants to be teleporting in combat at level 1 and throwing cantrips around. But, Ritual Caster gives you your own magical skill tree, and eventually you can cast a sixth level spell. That's cool. And, it gives you Find Familiar at level 1, so, you don't need to be patient to see combat applications for the feat. And, every time you find a scroll for your ritual book, it's happy dance time. Alarm? Tiny Hut? Water Breathing? Divination? Contact Other Plane? Telepathic Bond? Instant Summons? Hell fucking yeah! The idea that the jack of all trades thief pulls out his ritual book and contacts demonic forces on another plane of existence for information to help him solve the problem is extremely cool. It's a totally Indiana Jones thing to do. He is not a wizard. He really doesn't know what the fuck he's doing with this magic shit, but he's winging it. And, every once in a while, he fails his intelligence saving throw, drops to zero hit points and when his party revive him, he's insane until he's had a chance to sleep it all off. Cinematic.

Did you delete your previous comment? Because I answered your question previously. Familiars can't attack. If something requires an attack roll, regardless of the action to do it, a familiar can't do it. If it said familiars can't use the attack *action*, they would remain open to other ways to attack, but it just says they can't attack.

Thanks for the thorough thoughts! I addressed the improvised weapon / sneak attack issue better in the article. I am sticking with my 5/5 rating because it's rare that a subclass can transform a playstyle and highlight fringe mechanics.

@@FlutesLoot that's fair. as mentioned, i think it's viable from an optimization standpoint to be close to your ranking (i gave it a 4/5 but it will take alot for me to give it a 5/5 as much like giving out S tiers, i only give out 1 otherwise it loses value imo. so 5/5 only goes to 1 rogue subclass for me. at the moment imo that's the phantom) as long as the DM is not stingy with gold/crafting and allows access to the better items. if you're just using the phb items, there's still enough to work with there but it's not as game-changing as getting to impose conditions with decent dcs or high aoe dmg. like inhaled poisons are a killer if players are given access to the DMG items easily. or the tangler grenade. i do like the playstyle though of an improvised weapon thrower.

Additionally, correct me if I'm wrong, but even if they did count as an Use an Object action, while making an attack with the objects here does count as a ranged attack with an improvised weapon, Sneak Attack requires the weapon to either have the finesse property or the weapon be a ranged weapon. While the attack is ranged, the weapon is not a ranged weapon in this case, so Sneak Attack would not apply.

@@rdigeri Tricky point. I can't recall where, it could have been a sage advice or in the PHB, but i remember some rule that states any item or body part being used to make an attack, counts as a weapon while it is being used to make said attack. If my memory serves me well, then you could in fact sneak attack with an improvised weapon. However, if im crazy and misinformed, then you may be correct.

@@Calavid Oh it does count as a weapon, just not as a ranged weapon, like crossbows, bows or guns. The point here is that if you throw a dagger, the reason you can apply sneak attack to that is the finesse property, not that you made a ranged attack with it (since that in itself is insufficient). This is why thrown javelins can't benefit from sneak attack, for example. (Though I realize this example could be misleading, since javelin uses strength for throwing, however that's not what makes the difference, one could throw a dagger using strength too and still benefit from sneak attack.) I think the situation where one might be able to sneak attack with an improvised weapon is when the DM decides that the object used resembles a weapon which would normally have the finesse property. This will also be relevant from Sage Advice: 'What does “melee weapon attack” mean: a melee attack with a weapon or an attack with a melee weapon? It means a melee attack with a weapon. Similarly, “ranged weapon attack” means a ranged attack with a weapon. ...' So this is why a ranged weapon attack in itself does not mean it qualifies; it's not necessarily a ranged weapon. bottom line: It's not using dex that matters, but whether the weapon has the finesse property, or is a ranged weapon (which is not the same as the attack being ranged)

@@rdigeri In that case, you might be right. If you had glassblowers tool proficiency, i wonder if you could create dagger-like vials for your acid. That would still probably qualify as needing DM discretion though. Either way, the concept of bonus action ranged sneak attack that you can do in tandem with any other action wouldnt sit well with me as DM regardless, as compared to something like 2-weapon fighting which is melee only, requires you to Attack with your action first, and normally restricts what kinds of weapons you can use (having to use shortswords over rapiers unless you take Duel Wielder). Most bonus action attacks are either limited use, or have some kind of caveat, so getting one that breaks this mould on a rogue of all things isnt really balanced. Part of the rogues design was having a limited window to get their sneak attack off, an all your eggs in one basket sorta deal.

​@@Calavid dagger-like vial sounds fun, could work if the DM allows it. (two weapon fighting does state: "If either weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon, instead of making a melee attack with it." So technically it works ranged, it just runs into the issue of drawing the weapons, unless you have the Thrown Weapon Fighting Style.) I suppose the question whether Thief would be too strong with this use of their Use an Object is another question, but the intent doesn't seem to align with it.

Definitely a better resume buffer

Not all attacks are made with the attack action. Use an Object is for items that say they require an action to activate; some of those items activate and include an improvised weapon attack. Those items you specified are not weapons, they are items that require the Use an Object action to use. I personally believe the rules would be better if these rules were clearer and made more sense when objects with special effects were used with the attack action as improvised weapons instead of with Use an Object, but this is how they work now.

@@FlutesLoot Do you have a citation for this? Or at least a Sage Advice?

​@@fortunatus1 sure thing! Use an Object is described on PHB page 193. If you read items like acid, they say you use an action to use them, just like the Use an Object action says. Then part of that use is to make an improvised weapon attack. "When an object requires your action for its use, you take the Use an Object action."

While it's a cool racial trait, if it doesn't allow for the Use an Object action specifically/mechanically, it can't do what Fast Hands does. The way the Hadozee's Dextrous Feet feature was written in the UA would've taken the Thief by storm. WotC clearly decided not to do that, and I think they were correct in doing so.

Thank you!

The Sneak Attack description doesn't mention a damage type limitation. There are plenty of other limitations, but not damage type. I can see how someone could infer the damage type limitation due to the finesse and ranged weapon limitation.

I promise I've read all the rules, clarifying tweets, and errata on this. I'm trying to save everyone the time to decipher some of the murkiest rules in 5e. 1. The ruling for Fast Hands not working with magic items is specifically outlined in the DMG and the basic rules for activating an item. J-Craw even says as much: www.sageadvice.eu/can-a-thief-rogue-use-their-fast-hands-ability-to-use-bracer-of-flying-daggers-as-a-bonus-action/ 2. If you want to open it up to items that don't say they require an action to use, that's up to you. Most people seem to allow those non-action items as free actions, though some items are clearly written poorly (healer's kit, manacles). 3. It's not *my* logic; It's how 5e is written. But familiars say they can't attack, which is different from the attack action. It's clear that they can use the Use an Object action but they cannot make attacks. Your final statement's intent is unclear to me.

It's a bonus action.