Thinking of Increasing the Map Size of Barovia in Curse of Strahd? Be Sure to Watch This First!

  Рет қаралды 2,236

DM of the Mists

DM of the Mists

Күн бұрын

A popular modification to RAW (rules as written) Curse of Strahd is to increase the map size and to make Barovia bigger. It's only 20 by 10 miles in the book, which seems really small for the kingdom of a once-great conqueror, so I get why DMs would want to make it bigger - especially if you want to make the campaign harder and scarier for your players.
But what if I told you that you might be making the campaign easier instead...?
In this video I discuss this topic in detail, and I go over my experiences as a player of CoS (before DMing it) and as a DM of another campaign/adventure where there's a big 'world map' (Lost Mine of Phandelver), which helped me to come to this conclusion, which is backed by game mechanics and game design (and I geninuely think Barovia has been kept small for game design reasons).
But I'm not the expert - I might be wrong! So if you increased the size of Barovia and you didn't encounter this issue, then feel free to leave a comment on this video - I'd be keen to know more. Thanks, Mist Wanderers!
00:00 Intro
01:53 Why do DMs increase the size?
05:38 Why DMs should reconsider - more long rests
10:00 Why DMs should reconsider - a thought on what makes horror scary
12:32 Why DMs should reconsider - filler between locations?
14:11 Why DMs should reconsider - parties might do more in an adventuring day
15:13 Why DMs should reconsider - small means claustrophobic
16:00 Why DMs should reconsider - distance to Strahd's coffin
17:00 Why DMs should reconsider - the Dark Powers' irony
17:37 I might be wrong!
19:57 Outro
Here's a link to my original Reddit post on this topic as well: / an_argument_for_not_in...
Music credits - "Shadowlands 1 - Horizon", "Shadowlands 2 - Bridge", "Shadowlands 3 - Machine", "Shadowlands 4 - Breath", "Shadowlands 5 - Antechamber" and "Shadowlands 7 - Codex" - by Kevin MacLeod (a.k.a. Incompetech) licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License creativecommons.org/licenses/...
All other images, logos, etc. are the copyright of their respective creators.

Пікірлер: 61
@nicolo4219
@nicolo4219 14 күн бұрын
I enlarged the map to 1 miles/hexagon and you are right, a bigger map offers more long rests....thats' why i incorporated a lot of adapted 3.5e undead monsters from the Libris Mortis....even experienced players were surprised and those old school monsters tend to do semi-permanent damages to stats like the Skin Kites for instance... Players were afraid of encountering those monsters that could severely damage the party effectiveness for days. I also used mental breakdown counters to add that "Darkest dungeon" feeling.
@DMoftheMists
@DMoftheMists 14 күн бұрын
Sound cool! Might have to look into those monsters - they sound brutal. 😁😈
@nicolo4219
@nicolo4219 14 күн бұрын
@@DMoftheMists Skin Kites, Spawn of Kyuss, blood golems…there are a lot of nice adds for an undead campaign. I’m an old school player from 3e and although i find 5e to be more elegant as a ruleset, one of the things that i’ve a complain for is the Monster diversity and complexity; luckly 3e is full of inspiration for clever evil dms Who want to be creative 👹
@jinxtheunluckypony
@jinxtheunluckypony 16 сағат бұрын
I didn’t even think about the hit die situation, I always figured the intimate size of Barovia was meant to facilitate the time crunch element of the adventure. If you make the map too big then you’ll disincentivize exploration since the players won’t want to get too far away from Strahd’s castle once they hit the final count down.
@DMoftheMists
@DMoftheMists 9 сағат бұрын
That's a good point as well, RE: the time crunch element - I think that's a part of it as well.
@JonnySaysHi413
@JonnySaysHi413 20 күн бұрын
Definitely some good points there, makes the idea of expanding the map not as cut-and-dry. I also like the pulpy feel that can be brought about by mad dashes between the settlements, rather than trepidatious journeys.
@johntheherbalistg8756
@johntheherbalistg8756 20 күн бұрын
Honestly, I think it's supposed to be tiny. Staying outside in Barovia might be scary, but being at the locations isn't less scary, once you get to know the people
@joshuabraddy6264
@joshuabraddy6264 4 күн бұрын
Great vid! Very thoughtful.
@DMoftheMists
@DMoftheMists 4 күн бұрын
Thank you! 😃
@mikemarkwilka4135
@mikemarkwilka4135 12 күн бұрын
I'm running CoS but using the old edition lore, and lore from the "I, Strahd" novels. I tripled the distance to 0.75 miles per hex. My research indicated this was ideal if I wanted distances to reflect the novels. I also reduced the frequency of random encounters to reflect this. However, I am also using slower healing, so that they have to use their hit dice to heal, even on a long rest. Often they can still get to a location without a long rest, if they're willing to risk some exhaustion from pushing themselves. They've only camped in the wild once so far. But still, this video was helpful in the sense that I am better forewarned about the unintended consequences of my decision.
@DMoftheMists
@DMoftheMists 12 күн бұрын
Sounds like you've got a good handle on the situation. And I'm a big fan of both I, Strahd novels (and wasn't the first Lord Soth Ravenloft novel set in Barovia as well?), so I can completely understand matching that scale.
@minimoose7890
@minimoose7890 14 күн бұрын
The tiny scale is absurd to imagine the trees, mountains, lakes, buildings etc, and imagine how much of it you could see on the horizon line into the "distance". It doesn't make sense for it to be so short
@DMoftheMists
@DMoftheMists 14 күн бұрын
Fair enough. Although on the "horizon line" point, the map as a whole very hilly/mountainous - so it's not like the people of the Village of Barovia can see all the way to Vallaki (I think people travelling to Vallaki can only see it once they're near the windmill, which is most of the journey there). I found this 3D map to be handy for getting a feel for this: www.zootlocker.com/barovia/1barovia.html
@Wraithward
@Wraithward 20 күн бұрын
Thanks for the opinion piece. It isn't a PoV I've heard argued before and there's a lot of valid points to be had from it. As for the other "controversy" videos, I think one of the best things you can do is deliberate if the takes have anything new or revitalizing to add to the discussion (like this one did.) Providing those nuggets that haven't been iterated to death makes dealing with opinion backlash easier.
@DMoftheMists
@DMoftheMists 19 күн бұрын
Thank you. For the 2nd one I have planned, I'm going to do something similar where I make an argument for something but there'll be some thought behind it and I don't think it's a perspective anyone's talked about before (but I won't be able to hide behind game design/mechanics on this one, haha)! 🫣
@dario5178
@dario5178 21 күн бұрын
Some good points, I will probably not go bigger than double when I run CoS.
@DMoftheMists
@DMoftheMists 21 күн бұрын
Thanks! Yeah, I'd say if you do increase it, just doubling it is enough and is probably the maximum someone should consider (given all the reasons I said). It's riskier if it gets much bigger than that.
@Falruk
@Falruk 19 сағат бұрын
I would say that a neat solution could be that you cannot gain the benefits of a long rest outside of a a 'sanctuary', and then certain locations count as sanctuaries, such as towns, and perhaps the vistani camp and the winery after it's free of the pest. So then you have the same problems for player resources as a smaller map, but you get to make it more reasonable for Ireena needing an escort to Vallaki, when she can't just have a day's stroll over yonder.
@DMoftheMists
@DMoftheMists 4 сағат бұрын
That sounds like it could work. A few people have commented about the "less than a day for Ireena" aspect now. I get what people mean, but surely that just goes to show how scary Barovia is as-is? That Ismark and Ireena are too scared to take a 7-ish-hour trip without help? Because Barovia is that scary; _Strahd_ is that scary. That's what the players should be thinking/realizing IMO. Sure, extending the distance / number of days justifies it even more, but I don't think it's needed. If the DM - through I&I - makes it clear how dangerous the roads might be, there's no need to make it longer. IMO anyway.
@Falruk
@Falruk Сағат бұрын
@@DMoftheMists Well, then to bring up your point "spend a few nights outside of settlements and realize they aren't that dangerous", if they travel to Vallaki in one day and don't really feel it's that dangerous, you also break the illusion that "it's even too dangerous to travel during daytime". Another point is that this old kind woman travels to her windmill and doesn't need any escort there. Let's say we upscale the map so that Barovia Village > Old Windmill is one day's travel, and Vallaki is one day plus an hour or two, Morgantha can keep up her ruse that she can make it to her home during daytime when it's not as dangerous.
@SimonClarkstone
@SimonClarkstone 19 күн бұрын
For specifically the problem of recovering all resources on every journey, you could patch this by making Long Rest outside of towns be less effective. There are several rules variants for this I've heard of already, but an extreme one is for a Short Rest to take overnight and a Long Rest to take a week specifically in a comfortable inn / big camp / whatever. This doesn't help with the other issues you raised though.
@DMoftheMists
@DMoftheMists 19 күн бұрын
Yes! That's a good point and I think I've seen people suggest making those changes to rests when increasing the map size especially. It makes sense to do that. Gritty Realism I believe it's called, and it's in the Dungeon Master's Guide.
@williamgordon5443
@williamgordon5443 19 күн бұрын
@@DMoftheMists The problem I have with this idea of long rests outside needing to be harder, is that realistically, most settlements of this time period would only be about one day apart, especially in horror type settings. In less horror type setting, where settlements might be a couple days apart, I would imagine that merchants would setup up safe locations along main routes between settlements so that they can transport merchandise between settlements in relative safety. How many trips of sleeping outside and losing goods before a group of merchants decide to set up safe spots to protect their goods? As for sleeping off of regular routes, that is what setting up a safe location with traps to warn your party and taking watch is for. Long rests say that you only need 6 hrs of rest and can take 2 hrs of keeping watch. What else is that for other than setting up a somewhat safe location while traveling outside. And, yes, I can imagine sleeping inside dungeons would be a bad idea. I'm just commenting on sleeping outside.
@DMoftheMists
@DMoftheMists 19 күн бұрын
Great points.
@kythian
@kythian 16 күн бұрын
The unknown is more terrifying than the known.
@DMoftheMists
@DMoftheMists 16 күн бұрын
100%. At least two groups (one I played in, one I ran) can attest to that.
@L0-R3Z
@L0-R3Z 9 күн бұрын
Depends on how much imagination one has. Those will little imagination go down into the basement when they hear a bump in the night.
@jaysw9585
@jaysw9585 Күн бұрын
Could always just pull the 2e and 3e map which is 2x as big as the curse of strahd module and has 2 more cities and extra content. The map in the curse of strahd module isnt rhe whole domain, it just the portion you play in.
@DMoftheMists
@DMoftheMists Күн бұрын
Indeed. I've heard of some DMs who do that. E.g. there's a town called Immol, right? If any DMs who did this read this, I'd be curious to know how it went in your games.
@jaysw9585
@jaysw9585 2 сағат бұрын
@@DMoftheMists the base game is fine as it is. Expanding the hexes to a larger size doesn't make the story better. It's just more flavor. Adding more regions does add more content, which causes another problem. The players need room to grow, which means they will be higher level when they confront Strahd. There was a remake in the 90s of the original Castle Ravenloft that had a low level campaign and a high level one, I believe level 15, that could be used to adjust the difficulty of the castle. Do you and the players want to spend more time in Barovia? Do you want to add homebrew. Personally, I have run COS 4x now and already homebrew the crap out of it so it doesnt bother me. I have been a Ravenloft DM since the mid 90s so I know my way around pretty well. Last game, I took the players into neighboring domains.
@vatril
@vatril 20 күн бұрын
In my very first D&D game the DM ran CoS and read the map wrong. He assumed 1 Hex = 1 day of travel. It took us 4 or 5 game sessions to get from the village of Barovia to Vallaki, and those sessions were boring. Just wandering along the path with occasional random encounters. The firs 1-2 were fun, but then it just became quite monotonous.
@DMoftheMists
@DMoftheMists 19 күн бұрын
Ahh man, that's such a shame. 1 hex = 1 _day_ ? Ouch. That's a long walk.
@RenjiRei
@RenjiRei 20 күн бұрын
I use to run a large map of curse of strahd made travel between towns days/weeks instead of minutes or hours, and my players loved it, it just depends on the player if your players are ok with a harder feeling campaign.
@DMoftheMists
@DMoftheMists 19 күн бұрын
That's true! A lot of it comes down to what the players are like and prefer, what the DM's like... It's certainly not a clear-cut thing and I don't think there's any 100% right answer for 100% of people.
@MarshmallowMadnesss
@MarshmallowMadnesss 8 күн бұрын
Stretching it too much makes Barovia feeltoo empty. However RAW, its just a short afternoon hike to take Ireena to Vallaki.
@ricku2311
@ricku2311 10 күн бұрын
The players only get rests if you let them. Just make sure any night outside a proper building is a deadly encounter. Preferably forcing the players to make a mad dash for the nearest village in the dark. The map shouldn't be too big, it is a prison after all. It should be just large enough so that they have to make choice between camping outside or risking exhaustion to make it to the next village😈
@popularopinion1
@popularopinion1 2 күн бұрын
One hex = 1/2 mile instead of 1/4 mile. Bigger, but not so big that moving at a fast pace isn't a viable option for covering the distance before nightfall
@StefanLokietek
@StefanLokietek 5 күн бұрын
I made 1 hour per hex, makes every major location 1 to 2 days travel from any other safe haven. Enough for a random encounter or two, without getting tedious.
@DMoftheMists
@DMoftheMists 4 сағат бұрын
Can I ask what your reasoning was for increasing it to 1 hour per hex?
@mammonclarke
@mammonclarke 5 күн бұрын
I am sorry but I think you are completely wrong in your judgement on this topic. I have to disagree in regards to you having more hit dice if you make the map bigger. If you make it bigger so on average the party has to spend 1 night outside, the whole point is that there will be some type of encounter that makes it impossible to have a long rest. Strahd is not going to allow the party to go off on some boy scout overnight camping trip. If you can get from the village of Barovia to Vallaki in just a daytime hop down the road, Ismark could have easily gotten his sister to Vallaki without the party's help. Trade between the towns would be easier. You need a nighttime on the road to not just be scarier for the party but for the citizens as well. Making it an overnight excursion through the dangerous Svalich woods is what makes each location an island surround by a sea of terror. It makes the party think and prepare before heading out each time. Making multiple trips back and forth between locations becomes far more dangerous. There are enough possible oitdoor encounters within the game and plenty of gothic horror troupes out there to ensure that each night is something different and depending on the status, health and condition of the party. As for your point that once they survive outside because younare jotngonna TPK them with some wolves, well first off if it is still early in the game mayne they will TPK unless they run on the road back towards the village barovia and even if they do best them they are not gonna think "That wasn't so bad" as you state. They are going to think "Shit evey time we are stuck iutside at night something attacks us and we get no rest." I am not trying to be mean or anything but even after hearing you out, and actually even more.than before your opinion, I think the exact opposite is true. Making it bigger is not only better it is necessary.
@DMoftheMists
@DMoftheMists 4 күн бұрын
Thanks for passing on your thoughts, and also for doing so in a respectful way. Sorry for the delay in replying - I've been sick the last few days. You make some well thought-out points, and removing long rests from journeys would indeed entirely side-step the main issue I raised, but your version sounds brutal, perhaps too brutal - in an already brutal campaign. Now I'm not saying that means you're wrong, but out of interest, have you run CoS, and if so, have you run it in the way you've described? And if so, how did it go? I'm not meaning to sound gatekeepery at all, but because I think it's one of those things where DMs _think_ making it harder than it already is automatically makes it better (in theory), and that not making it near-impossibly hard isn't true to the CoS spirit, but the way you describe it - while it sounds awesome running it as a DM - sounds like it'd lead to burnout and frustration for the players, so that'd be something I'd be conscious of. But then again I guess it depends on the players as well. If you have veteran players who want a challenge and love horror, they'll probably welcome it. Other types of players, not so much. My video was more aimed at DMs who may think "I want to make the make bigger" without giving it much further thought beyond that, not realising the wider consequences of doing so. In your case, you've obviously thought about it and suggested measures to counteract it (by not allowing long rests at all) - in which case power to you. I meant to mention this in the video as well but forgot, but I read a thread once where a DM said they made the map bigger to "make Barovia scarier" but also didn't bother with on-the-road encounters because they didn't like them(!), soo… y’know, that's not good. Maybe that's an extreme example, but my advice was meant for people who increase the map but then maybe also keep everything else as-is (the random encounter types, their frequency, etc.) or make other changes that actually undo the effect they’re going for. In your case, while I don't think I'd ever run it the way you've said, with the right DM and players, it could work well - but I don't necessarily think it'd be that way for everyone. Here's an analogy I thought of. RAW CoS (and RAW CoS map size) is Dark Souls. Your version is Dark Souls on hard mode. When people make the map larger but don't compensate for the change they've made, they think they're gonna get Dark Souls on hard mode but may be accidentally making Dark Souls on easy mode. That's what I'm trying to get across. I don't think that means my way is easy - it's just not as difficult as yours, as yours is harder still. I've also seen stories (on Reddit, etc.) where CoS DMs complain that their players get to a point where they don't want to leave settlements. Now this might be due to lack of direction, but I bet once or twice it's been because the journeys have been too long and too tough. Every DM wants to make CoS scary and hard, but making it _too_ scary and hard can equally bring problems and bring campaigns to a halt. I do also partially disagree with - and could argue against - the points about Ismark & Ireena "hopping down the road" and what you said about the trade between towns, plus there's the fact that making the distances longer risks drawing out the campaign (which may be fine for a long-lasting campaign and if the players are fine with that and invested), but this comment's already pretty long as it is. Thanks again.
@fleetcenturion
@fleetcenturion 20 күн бұрын
1 hex = 4 miles isn't "wild." It's the actual size of Barovia. Maybe you're not familiar of the history, but Barovia in 1e/2e is an actual _country,_ 5e hit point recovery is also a flaw in the game system, so don't use that either. In fact, just play Ravenloft with AD&D rules, like you should have done in the first place!
@KingZolem
@KingZolem 20 күн бұрын
Whatever you say grognard.
@DMoftheMists
@DMoftheMists 20 күн бұрын
My players know 5E. Even if I did know AD&D (I don't), and even if AD&D _is_ better than 5E, I'm not going to force my players to learn an entirely different system for supposed added authenticity. That would make me a pretty terrible DM and friend. This video was aimed at Curse of Strahd (5E) DMs. And in the video, I do make the point that Barovia was bigger in the older lore, and so I'd understand if people want to make it bigger to honour that. But if you do that in 5E, with 5E rules/mechanics, then you're potentially gonna have a bad time. If you're an AD&D DM then that's great - but obviously you're not who this video is meant for.
@fleetcenturion
@fleetcenturion 20 күн бұрын
@@DMoftheMists - Is 5e all they've ever played? Is it all _you've_ ever played? Sorry to say this, but that would be kind of pathetic.
@Wraithward
@Wraithward 20 күн бұрын
@@fleetcenturion Is it though? Is it pathetic to have come up in the era of D&D's most explosive growth in its history? For people to just enjoy the game they know either *choosing* or *preferring* to not go back to systems that neither have nostalgia for them or seem too dated or stylistic to be desirable to them? For life circumstances to perhaps be too hectic and otherwise filled with things vastly more important than dedicating time to something when wwhat they have is 'good enough?' Expanding one's experience with systems is always going to be a positive for opinion growth, even if they don't stick with it, but people have to want to do it- You can't force that just because *you* like something and @DMoftheMists is right to choose what's best for his table. You basically said having an opinion that isn't yours is pathetic, which in itself is pitiable. Moreso is trying to shame a man for creating content for a specific audience that both of you have acknowledged isn't you. IDK what war you're trying to win here, but just calling people names isn't going to win hearts and change minds. Don't see what it matters to you anyway; it's not like you're playing together.
@fleetcenturion
@fleetcenturion 19 күн бұрын
@@Wraithward - Short answer: YES. Whatever your opinion is, having formed one without ever having tried another TTRPG or game system, then broadcasting that opinion for the world to see, would indeed be pathetic. Judging by your novella, you must have been _really_ offended. Feel free to throw down your X-card, and retreat to your safe space next time.
@alhyde1269
@alhyde1269 6 күн бұрын
Barovia village cannot be very far from the Durst Mill. You know very well why.
@DMoftheMists
@DMoftheMists 6 күн бұрын
I take it you're referring to poor Granny's old, tired legs...? 😉 That's another reason for not increasing the map size. The trip between the two doesn't become feasible - when it comes to 'shopping' for 'ingredients' - if the distance is made even longer than it already is. Good catch with that one.
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