That would be helpful to be able to magically flip it. You’re right that the direction of movement on the circle implies direction melodically or harmonically. Thanks for your thoughts!

Good recommendation. Thanks!

I suppose it is a purer interval. Maybe because it appears in the overtone series before the fourth? Maybe it should have been called the circle of fifths AND fourths from its beginning.

@@Keith_Horn a perfect fifth has a ratio of 3:2 and a perfect fourth has a ratio of 4:3. again if we think in terms of the dominant fifth chord (V7) then it makes sense that way. plus it sounds a little catchier, but in smaller circles its definitely more known as the circle of fourths purely for its motion.

Thanks! It’s a take it or leave it idea. Maybe it can be helpful to someone, maybe not.

Interesting - which math convention?

@@Keith_Horn Angle measure increases as you move counterclockwise, easy to view on a unit circle chart.

Right. G is a 5th above C and also a fourth below C. Functional harmony moves counterclockwise (dmin-G7-C) which is a fourth above or a 5th below and I think it makes more sense to move clockwise when following functional harmony.

It seems more intuitive to me

I hadn't considered the Dbmaj7 as a sub for Gsus but you're totally right.That part of the melody in "All the Things" (Dbmaj7-G7) always feels like a refreshing twist. I like the tonicizing to the three chord there.

@@Keith_HornYeah! The brief modulation from Ab to C is beautifully done. Cmaj7 then becomes Cm7 (at bar 9) which is common to both the key of Ab and the key of Eb that the 2nd phrase establishes ... before landing on Gmaj7. Most standards' bridges are in a contrasting key, and this song is no exception; but here, the switch to G actually precedes the bridge. Surprising progressions are so fascinating.

@@Rando_Djinnsen Jerome Kern for the win!

Thanks for your thoughts!

@@Keith_Horn You're very welcome. Thank you for the interesting video. It occurred to me that a prepared cadence (and cadences are most often prepared) can also be IV-V-I and not just ii-V-I. In both cases it's subdominant, dominant, tonic, since, for example, in C, F is the subdominant and Dm7 is the subdominant parallel. By an amazing coincidence, Dm is the parallel minor to F maj. and Dm7 contains exactly the same notes (leaving the specific voicing aside) as F6. With the subdominant parallel, of course, you get the nice sequence of fifths effect, if you have the roots of the chords as the lowest notes (which, however, isn't necessary).

@@laurencefinston7036 it’s so interesting how the F6 is an inverted ii7 and that’s a good point that the prepared cadence of IV-V is only one note away from the fifth/fourth prepared cadence of ii-V

@@Keith_Horn Thanks. Assuming the closest possible voicings and the roots in the bass, Dm7 would be the third inversion of F6 and F6 would be the first inversion of Dm7. Of course, any voicings could be used. It adds a whole new level to harmony when one considers the voice leading and not just the chords. This ties in with basso continuo, too. With more sophisticated composers of popular music, I've found that it's necessary to look at the voice leading in order to figure out what's going on harmonically. This occurs in Gershwin's music and especially in Antonio Carlos Jobim's.

@@laurencefinston7036 Both amazing composers! Rhapsody In Blue takes some adventurous turns harmonically. Girl From Ipanema has some really nice surprises, too - especially melodically.

It’s useful for a few reasons but when applied to chord progressions based on functional harmony (ii-V-I aka Dmin-G7-C) the chords move from right to left. I think they should move left to right which would flip the circle. If you’re newer to music theory and want to learn more about key signatures, the circle of fifths is quite helpful.

Modulation is a simple example, the keys are arranged in a way that the next scale in the circle is either one sharp/flat difference, thus remaining 6 equal pitches :)

@@Keith_Horn hmm so it really is mostly about finding the fifth of each key. Thanks for answering.

@@neolyth that's an interesting point, that Keith also brought up in the video. As someone who only plays guitar, it's more natural to me to think in terms of transpositions and shapes, but I can see how that helps you learn the scales on the piano for example.

@@neolyth Good point

I think flipping the circle would more clearly reflect the motion of functional harmony. As it is now, functional cadence based harmony moves counterclockwise (Dmin-G7-C). Calling it the circle of fourths wouldn’t be enough. Both versions could be called the circle of fourths OR the circle of fifths because C to G is either a fourth or a fifth depending on which direction you move on your instrument. I think interval inversion should be learned BEFORE the circle is learned to avoid confusion about directionality.

"Back" to tonic is an interesting idea. Maybe some musicians and composers think of it that way and the circle makes sense to them as it is.

@@Keith_Horn thank you for an interesting discussion! However, as usually on KZfaq, it often drifts away from your point and the topic…. I like the spectrum of emotion though :-). Might get out of hands and split into “sub-branches” with the growing # of replies…. So far (if I did not miss), nobody seemed to try seriously defending defend the “conventional” order you tried to scrutinize publicly in your video. Lots of kinda “direction does not matter” voices, some with interesting deviations from topic…. By the way, everything seems to be “just one note (or semitone) away” and then we branch endlessly, etc. “Brighter-darker” type of feelings reminds what they try to teach in kindergarten (in my times :-)) however, hardly helps when applied to the direction of the circle. If I try to understand the idea, one could point out that plagal cadence goes in opposite direction to authentic however, again, I would stay with you since fourth is shorter, plagal is weaker and “feels” rather as a retreat back, not a move “forward”. In regards to anything else besides cadential moves like IV-V it is not a cadential move and no need to go that way… - the clockwise circle (going clockwise by fourth) perfectly and naturally models authentic (or secondary dominant) movement going away from tonic, then shows where and when you simply gotta deal with the tritone. It is pretty easy to see that, with each fourth step on the circle, the cadential “feel” (and how strong it is) changes slightly in accordance with modal “shades” respectively. Those who like to feel the function, the direction, cannot help (imho) recognizing those things (conscientiously or not). Cadences are drastically different by strength and there are are arguably 4 of them however, recognizing 1/2 as a delayed authentic makes it literally 3 (in my kindergarten, but basics is basics :-)). Circle of fourth (clockwise) models the strongest authentic feel and, in case of IV-V (it is not a cadence, nor a preparation) just shows, that subdominant can go either way in minor (that s why it is so easy to hear circular progression there, like in a beaten but forever beautiful “jazz standard” Autumn Leaves). In major, right after the first subdominant step, you have to either fall back plagal or some-how deal with the tritone (if you wanna stay in the key) so, in order to keep on circular movement, you gotta “jump” over the tritone “to the other side” of the circle - to continue “normally”. That s why I-vi jump is so common and then carries normally vi-ii-V-I. In simplest “3-chord” harmonies, the IV-V can be seen (heard) as the simplest (but longest) jump to avoid the tritone , and that’s what minor chansons (canzones) and major country does all the time. Modern “West” popular and especially background music composers seem to be obsessed with the shades of modes and even came up with the concept of “equality” (inclusiveness again?) of the diatonic modes… (you d better start a NEW TOPIC ON THIS :-)) while they are functionally (cadentially) NOT 😂. That s why, no musical Einstein can be born to truly combine those two approaches. Who goes modal would not care about the direction on the circle cuz they chose to limit cadential feel to the minimum, like i-IV-i Dorian vamp (kinda plagal feel), etc. Cuz diatonic modes, excepting Ionian, have different but big “problems” with cadences: they just do not support authentic or plagal or both. Just the rule of the diatonic code, easy to show. The only elegant solution (harmonic minor) was found for aeolian but sacrificing diatonic concept altogether…. It does not seem there is an interest to even try the same for the other modes - modulations do the job for any desired shade of eternal Dur and moll (?)… I wish they told me something like that in my kindergarten - i would have gone musician, not an engineer :-(. Took private lessons in person and online - just hated music education methods, notation, linear (not matrix-style) music scores with uneven bars, etc. No structure. No concept. No direction. Just “feelings and emotions”, meaningless scales and key signatures (instead of meaningful scales and modulations… )😂

@@andreipetrov4850 lots to talk about there! To your point about cadences “feeling” a certain way. I have heard it said that the plagal cadence feels more like a contracting motion whereas the authentic cadence feels more like an expansion. I like your idea about exploring the topic of functional harmony within other modes outside of Ionian.