Lol

Good one!

😂😂😂

I lold

Dog, for real though. Sometime in the future there will be somebody just pissed off that for some reason these people are still using Phillips in space instead of super hex plus.

oh the vicious cycles

XKCD 927 in case anyone’s interested

Engineer: "There are too many standards! We should just create one that works for all use cases!" *Situation: There are sixteen competing standards. *

Team Tri-Wing.........ACTIVATE!! 😆😂🤣 Oh and don't ya just love the "snap-action" on ya fingers from your hex-key, when ya have to break loose a Button-Head cap screw. After 2 or 3 of 'em and grasping your fingers in pain, you'll finally grab your "cheater" to take out the other 17, that some engineer thought a lil 2ft square access panel needed. 😆😂🤣

You need to get out of your conspiracy bubble. I've run the A to B torque to failure testing in a fastener laboratory. Torx Plus has a substantially higher permissible drive torque than a standard Torx. The geometry of how the drive torque force is transmitted through the drive feature is substantially different, there's a lot more material there. That's why you'll see them being used in low profile or high torque applications. Nissan, Ford and Tesla among others use them in production.

@@otm646 and of course having the patent on that new system for another 25 years had nothing to do with them bothering to develop the improved version. When it boils down to it, its just to sell more stuff !

@@Decrepit_biker Pretty neat how they only last 25 years, huh? forces innovation or whatever

@@amicloud_yt I have known a company sit on an improvement for 15 years to get to the end of the 25 year period before releasing the update! I know as I used to work for them 🤣

@@otm646 And in none of those the torque limits are even close to reacing, A Hex-Head or an allen-head are capable of spanning even a 12.9 Screw, so how would being able to transmit more torque be benefitial? The difference between the two torx heads is minimal in performance. The reason Automotive manufactuerers use these screws is that the manufacturer holds the patents, therefore is the only producer and therefore can give contracts with billions of screws involved, which in turn makes it impossible for outside manufacturers to join in. In essence they use patent law to influence the free market and keep their role. Its funny how you americans that are always about small business and people getting successfull do not see how this is a system that prevents any of you ants tp even be able to talk to your potential customers.

Same. I wonder if it's better than triple square in terms of durability.

Im a mechanic and I own a set. They work slightly better but they still suck.

Ever worked on a Volkswagen? They use a XZN Triple-square head. Its fantastic. Just like a Torx but different.

@@peteraugust5295 It's fantastic until you get rust on it and those tiny sharp points on those screws become dull. Then it's just hell broken loose.

Same

I have an old mechanics setup for British tools. it's two smaller toolboxes with handles (2 layer, removable spanner/socket top layer). He has tools that you see in classic auctions (50s stuff) with 8 different bolt sizes on a single tool.. and a collection of them AND the sockets to go with, extensions and the rest. Then the spanners to top it off. So he had everything he could ever need to work on British cars or stationary Diesel engines, all British standard size. And you could carry it with you in a backpack to the top of a damn mountain if you had to in a war..

And then what happened? Did the other hacks in the shop steal all his tools? That is what happens the world over

@@godsinbox No. This is a professional shop. The other mechanics used their own.

@@N4CR5 Do you mean you have the tool setup from an old mechanic? Was it bought, or gifted?

What a great comment. There's an old Michael J Fox movie, Doc Hollywood, 1991, where the local mechanic has to work on Doc's Porsche, and says "I always wanted an excuse to buy a set of metric tools". It was a great line.

"an updated revision with minor -improvements- _changes_ that was created to secure a new revenue stream for the company" is precisely the definition of planned obsolescence. The old product doesn't have to fail. The new part just has to be incompatible enough to interrupt the legacy market.

JIS is just pain annoying, almost identical looking to Phillips only way to know for sure seems to be trial and error to see what fits best. Almost ruined my HiFiman headphones using a Phillips driver before realising it was JIS.(only stripped one screw for which I had a spare)

Haha try a 5 sided torx looking bit with a pin in the middle ,I've seen em on engine fuel systems and we used to have to sign out the tool bit from the crib at work. The package said something about being a security bit that's used in prisons also ,hence the sign out they don't want those bits floating around.

@@MrTheHillfolk apple uses those for all its products. really annoying indeed

@@MrTheHillfolk china will be selling them on ali-express - one dollar!

I'm glad my car engines use reversed torx plus. Can't imagine getting them at torque with a philips or pozidrive

Who don't hate that shit. But it's still easier to work with than flathead screws that are next to impossible to get in right without injuring yourself.

@@ehsnils Switch to Robertson....

@@MaverickBlue42 Fewer contact points means less reliability. I'd rather select XZN.

Philips head screws are great for their intended purpose, there's a reason we still use them today even in a professional setting. But when they're used on screws that needs more torque applied than its intended for just because "well everyone has a phillips screwdriver" yea that's pretty shit...

@@MaverickBlue42 I would rather stab myself in the eye than use square drive. Torx is better in every way as far as I'm concerned.

There's Philips, Posidrive, and JIS that I remember off the top of my head... and curse the inventors out whenever I encounter them because I almost never select the right tool for the right head the first time.

You know what really bakes my noodle? Finding a flathead screw.

@@dougaltolan3017 - I’ve seen a lot on ships and old engineering. They have flat head nuts, bolts and there’s no thread. Spooky stuff! ;-)

@@dougaltolan3017 Watchmakers use flathead screws for almost everything. Then again, watchmakers also custom-grind their own screwdrivers for a perfect fit...

@@daveys 🐸

Utter disinterest. They're the type of machinist that work on a machine for 10 years and don't know the basic things about their control and what the various buttons on there do - not having picked up the manual and give it a glancing check in all that time.

you use what's on the shadow board or in the drawer. I've been in factories the better part of a decade now and this is news to me

lol! Do you know everything in the machining handbook!

@@dominic6634 lol! This isn’t in the machinery handbook!

YOU don't know, what YOU don't know.

IMO it's all about maximising $$$, by making a new type they can sell a licence for it to bring in more money than sticking with old stuff.

@@olivertaylor4779 I think that's what Brian Moore meant by urge to a proprietary.....

that and the fact I keep track of 1 phillips bit, one Robertson bit, and three different torx bits to turn the most common screws I encounter.

Torx is not an excellent system. It's a terrible system. There are too many sizes too close together making the use of the wrong size bit almost inevitable. Also the "doesn't cam out" thing isn't really true as I've had to drill out dozens of stripped torx screws over the years. You know what never has those problems? Robertson. The sizes are distinct enough that you never have the wrong bit, and I've never had one cam out, and never had to drill one.

@@kenbrown2808 Funny, I need 3 phillips bits, 4 Robertsons, and about 20 torx bits. Torx is a disaster for that reason alone.

That is a great topic. We avoided Torque Specs in this one, but we'll be coming back to it. Using a lubricant will completely change our torque values, and just about all tooling manufacturers recommend using a lubricant on our insert screws. I was doing engine block machining, and using ARP studs for the deck plates, and the torque numbers I was given were not for bolts using the ARP Moly/Ultratorque, so when I tightened things up, it immediately ripped the studs right out of the aluminum block, with so much tensile pull. When using a lubricant, we get a much more even torque (less torque scatter), and we end up using lower torque values. On old engine heads, you had one spec if you oiled the bolts, and another if tightened dry.

@@markterryberry4477 спасибо,это было интересно!

Ooh, I learned something new. Thank you

Also, I've noticed if you have a regular torx 15 screw that is worn out that you can sometimes fit the Torx plus in it to get it out.

Heard you can just use an Allen but I've never needed to try it myself

@@wades623 You might get lucky on a certain size or two but it definitely doesn't work all the time.

And PRAY TO WHATEVER HIGHER POWER YOU BELIEVE to never encounter one with stud in the middle.

@@lokalnyork Some bit kits have those anti-tamper bits in them in all the sizes.

@@lokalnyork That's called a security screw. Just slip a small flat in beside the centre stud, it'll turn.....

@@lokalnyork You can buy security-torx bits at almost any hardware store.

@@lokalnyork Or just keep a set of security torx instead of normal ones so you don't even need to check.

Jesel valvetrain has used them on their rocker shaft stands. PITA tryin to find one at the dragstrip if u gotta problem.

Been on Subaru's for a good long while too.

Fiat and Alfa engines too. Regardless of the supposed superior torque transfer quite often the recess will be too shallow to get a good purchase,head bolts in particular,anyone remember the early Ford Zetec cam sprocket Torx bolts😂. You see plenty of examples of shallow heads in places where there is more than sufficient room for a decent hex head or a deeper Torx head,FFS! and I've had plenty of EP Torx heads snap off on BMW's leaving a nice sheer bolt style security device too. At least it isn't Allen bolts or that multi spline crap VAG uses.

Spline drive screws were common on IBM electronic accounting machines. Small screws but relatively high torque specification.

I think you'd run into problems with hex heads rounding out more often with hex head screws in this application. Especially with really small insert screws.

@@leesuschrist Not hex heads, hex socket heads.

Agree 100%, you may eventually wear out an allen wrench but rarely wear out a socket head cap screw. Torx head screws cam out all the time.

Until you buy some Chinese tools and screws and with every bit it is either too small or too big. Correct bit or not, the tools have tolerances and feels like a crap shoot 50% of the time. Bought a Blackview smartphone that came with it's own screwdriver for disassembly and it didn't even fit right. . . At least drill bits don't care the type of screw head they encounter.

Just grind one off and then you’ll have a 5 point. So simple I can’t believe you didn’t think of it first. 😉

I love to cam out.. they’re doing a job, like he said they’re an improvement.

How do you know they are using it “just to be different” rather than actually having a better solution for the application? Sometimes engineers are a little too obsessive about data and performance figures. The scheduling and accounting departments usually have a challenge on their hands in that regard. And ip torx screws aren’t abstract at all. It’s about 50/50 with holders screws I see with each design. And most (probably all really) ship with a driver.

@@Jspackman That's what the patent system promotes. Their patent ran out so they made an "improvement" that no one really needs.

And there is the Robertson square drive that is used in a lot of wood screw applications or the crown bus external 12 spline dome head screws that they use to keep the little darlings from taking things apart on the way to school.

Haha I like this. I think it’s cruel they are so close together

Which illustrates why Torx is such an awful system. There are too many sizes too close together. They should have half (or less) of the sizes they do. Take a look at Robertson, so much better, you never have that problem as it's always obvious which size is right, you only need a few different drivers in your toolbox, and it's more secure and less likely to cam out than a torx too.

exact, so we're back to the PH/PZ mess

Yep, and too many idiots strip them out with regular torx bits

@@Sicktrickintuner If you are crawling under a machine in a grimy ass cabinet and need to see the difference between torx and torx plus in a dark hole, while it fits your torx wrench, you suddenly realize what the problem is. Not every screw is in the front panel of a machine. Just last week we cammed out a self tapper screw 7 meters up on a cherry picker in a ridiculous spot because it was pz and seemed to fit ph2.

How do they perform better? Can they put more torque on the fastener? Which bolts would survive that, which ones would just round up due to smaller (therefore much weaker) lobes on the bolt head? Sure, the tool should be stronger than the bolt as it has to put up with thousands of fasteners within its lifetime. But the bits and keys are made of much higher grade of steel than the fasteners. Smaller lobes on the torx key leave space for bigger (and stronger) lobe on the (much softer) bolt head leading to a more balanced strength ratio.

Great comment. I was talking about this with an engineer friend of mine, and yes, while a lubricant will give us a higher stretch (preload) on the screw, it can cause it to loosen if it is in a high-vibration application (less friction). Our cutting tools are really well designed, and tested over decades, so the inserts are well seated in their pockets, and the screws themselves are often offset to hold the insert again the pocket walls so there is no way for it to move. We'll see this with cylinder head bolts as well, there is vibration but the dowel pins on the heads help keep the head from moving against the block. There are lots of applications where we would not want to use a lubricant, and where a nyloc nut, lock washer, lock-wire, Nord-Lock washer, loctite, or jam nut would be more appropriate. In our case, all of the tooling suppliers recommend using a lubricant on the insert screws, so the lack of friction is baked-into our insert torque specs from the manufacturers. Yes, a lube drastically affects torque specs (needs less torque for same preload), and shouldn't be used unless the manufacturer recommends it.

The comment in the video is correct: with lubrication you need less torque to reach the desired preload... but that means to tighten properly you need to target the right preload, not a specific torque, and so you will use less torque with lubrication.

Yes, never lubricate wheel bolts/nuts, that way the wheel will be seized onto the hub when you get a flat tire 100 miles from everywhere. Makes perfect sense. Been there. Never again.

@@d.e.b.b5788 wheels are rarely if ever seized on hubs by nuts seized to studs, so using an anti-seize lubricant on the studs won't help. Usually when someone can't get the wheel off, they either can't turn the nuts because they were over-torqued, or they can get the nuts off but the wheel is stuck to the hub... so torque properly and consider anti-seize on the hub (rather than the studs).

@@brianb-p6586 lubricate the countersink in the rim and the contact face of the hub, never the threads yeah. Threads are usually fine but the face drag of the 'sink will bind it hard enough to twist a lug wrench shank out of shape

I'd question this provenance. A standard torx is, more-or-less exactly, a fractional-inch hex wrench with grooves ground into each flat - you can make an almost perfect driver by hand with a well dressed bench grinder. I suspect somebody "improved" a hex wrench to hack together torx, then later went back and did some proper ground-up engineering to get torx plus.

According to the relevant Wikipedia article, "The Bristol (Also named as Gamebit or Bristol spline) screw drive is a fastener with four or six splines, but is not necessarily tamper resistant. The grooves in the wrench are cut by a square-cornered broach, giving a slight undercut to the outer corners of the driver." That's really not much like a Torx, except being 6-lobed.

Totally agree. And if you can still in most cases live with torx-torxplus, we have a special torx head for you - with a little pin in the centre. So feel free to buy a new special torx key, with a pinhole in the centre.

@@shoutitallloud a hammer and a small round punch can take care of that little ‘problem’. Can’t get in your way if it’s been broken out 🤷🏼‍♂️

@@benupde1979 Won't t agrue with this. Nice words to put on slogan))

@@shoutitallloud It's almost as if Security Hex exists which requires you to buy a special hex with a pinhole in the center. How come I don't see you crying about that?

@@svn5994 'cause you are emotionally blind

And It looks like manufactures don't want you to do any repair or service operations, thus using a whole zoo-park of different bolts, nuts, and sockets..

The problem is that when you include all the unlicensed 'star drive' screws and bits that are everywhere now that the patents have expired, as a practical matter there really isn't a 'normal torx' anymore.

Throw them away and substitute Allen type hex screws and bolts.

@@ellieprice363 Allen? Is it the same as HEX ? They are pure evil (my opinnion)

@@shoutitallloud Why pure evil? The hex is deep and strong and if the wrench fits it will bend or break before the hex socket is damaged.

Купи у HAAS

Force ,или дело техники,хорошие инструменты

Wera are great

Wiha. Wera's handles are hot garbage.

Got an old air-cooled Beetle. Most of the car can be worked on using a 13mm wrench.

Most of the torque that we use to tighten s screw is not spent tightening (actually stretching) the screw, but is lost to friction. The lubricant reduces the friction , so we can get the same amount of stretch (preload) in the screw with less force. The lubricant can make a screw more likely to back out on its own, but it doesn’t because it has a good stretch/preload, nice and tight. Really interesting topic.

@@markterryberry4477 отличный ответ.

The screws, and lubrication used with them, on cutting tools have had decades of testing and design improvements to ensure that the inserts have no play (slop), that could be exploited, vibrating the screws loose. The inserts are tightly held, with no wiggle room, against the insert pocket walls, to hold tight against vibrations. I was talking to an engineer, and there are definitely applications where a lubricant might not be advised, and other solutions are more appropriate like Loctite, lock washers, Nyloc nuts, Nord-lock washers, Lock-wire and more. What a terrific topic. For more information, do a search for "self loosening of bolts and nuts". Engineers have spent their entire careers looking at just this concern.

@@markterryberry4477 good info, thanks!

The tool manufacturer recommends it.

The thing is that most of those screws have specific applications.

Would be nice, don't mind buying a few more sets of tools for" new, upgraded " fasteners, but, as long as the parts and repair info, is made available.

The manufacturers are trying to take that right from you. There is a big fuss from the farmers because Deere is requiring all repairs on their tractors be done by factory techs. The problem for the farmers is that the techs often are not available for weeks. You can imagine what that does to the farmer's planting and harvesting schedule.

@@johncooper4637 Getting little hand tools, and bits for a few dollars, for new designs , is easy. Yea, the John Deere thing is a bit crazy, pretty monopolistic.

@@TheLaXandro Most of these applications can be handled by Robertson screws, and are pretty much standard across the board in Canada unless it's something manufactured in 'Muricah....

Awwwhh.. don't worry. Next time they'll put some brand new "GNORX-extra" bolts

Get a welder (a cheap flux core works fine) and just weld the offending bolt to a piece of rod and you don't need to worry about the new idiot bit some "engineer" comes up with.

@@D8W2P4 I know this is bad practice, but I re-used the flywheel bolts. So mangling them up wasn't an option.

To me that sounds so dumb. I knew the difference between pozi nd Phillips from maybe 10 years old. But I always use the notion that if you don't know something, it's s simple as that. You dont know and just haven't been taught yet. Until maybe this year I'd never heard of triple squares, spline and ribe and I had no idea about the differences. A spline is a 12 point regular torx, a ribe is effectively a 12 point internal torx plus and a triple square is a 12 point with all corners being 90°, not to be confused with the spline. They all look very similar but using the wrong tool will simply wear the fasteners and you'll have crappy grip. The reason being I'd never really worked on new cars til the last 2 years. I'm sure people who do more complicated jobs than myself are laughing at me.

Not to mention the Reed Prince!

@@georgecroney6168 Problem is, when they look identical, it's hard to figure out what's going on. It's just awful design.

I prefer Philips over Robertson! Take that Canuck!

To each his own. But I’m from NJ.

When you need it done.... I have done it by accident but to my defense, i did it with 2 deeps holes that i couldnt get a light in and still look (4-50 screws some 2" 1/2 into the block) Also, this was in sweden and i thought the part was based on metric.

Guilty 🤚🏼

Guilty as charged. Conversely, I've used slightly oversized Torx drivers on rounded hex screws more times than I'd like to admit. Sometimes that extra bite makes all the difference, especially if you're trying to fix electronics or non-kitchen appliances with supa-soft fasteners. Engineers, mechanics, technicians, technologists, we're a cursed breed with all this madness!

yep, it is straight forward. not sure how anybody could not understand it, it really is super simple and easy to understand. the imperial system is also much more user friendly and reliable than the metric system as well. metric is total crap.

@@orion7741 give an example of the metric system being less reliable & the imperial system being more user-friendly. Imperial measurement. Inch, Feet , Yard ,Mile , all different multiplication factors to convert each. Metric mm, cm , m , km . 1000mm in a meter & a 1000m in 1km. The maths in Metric system is move the decimal point. Can you say how many inch are in 3miles , without using a calculator. But someone using the metric system could convert between there different measurements in seconds without a calculator.

@@robertsomerville5377 The UK metricated when I was in primary school but I for one still know there are 63360 inches per mile. 1 inch per mile or 1:63360 was the ‘standard’ map scale used in the UK prior to 1974, now it’s metric it is 1:50000 or 1cm = 500 metres

@@robertsomerville5377 Had this discussion with my ex father in law several years ago - which ended up with him starting a full blown argument 😂. The 'easiest' system is the one you know at the end of the day. However I stand by the fact that if you hypothetically didn't know either the imperial or metric system and learnt them both, you'd find the metric system made more sense 👍.

@@deezelfairy learning something new can revolutionise your life. I completed an apprenticeship as a machinist & never worked with any CNC machines until 30 years later when I owned my own business. Buying my first CNC mill transformed what I could do & how I could do it. Just because you learned one way , doesn't stop you from learning a new & better way.

I ran CNCs at Caterpillar for 30 years. What they would do at Cat is treat the screws in the tool holders like a high value item. The holders cost hundreds and the screws are a buck apiece, and they stock only 4 or 5 spare screws in the tool crib. Literally one screw at a time in one little ziplock bag. Then somebody orders all 5 screws and hordes them. So when the screw in your holder gets wallowed out and there are zero screws in the crib, you order a whole new holder. 4 or 5 hundred bucks for a new holder to get a new one-dollar screw. When I explain to them that they should demand the screws from suppliers in bulk (this is Caterpillar, they can demand this from tool suppliers) and keep 500 spare screws in the crib for each type of tool so every odd guy who hordes 4 or 5 piddly screws won't clean out the crib and the rest of us won't need to order a new tool just for the screw, they won't listen. And that just makes everybody horde the spare screws even more. When you see the crib has 5 more screws, you snap them up, every man for himself. There was a Sandvik rep who brought in a new type of inserted drill for us to try. The drill ran a lot better than the Sumitomos we were using, BUT the Sumitomo was a style that employed cutting force to keep the cutting insert locked in place and it would cut properly even if the 2 screws in it were not fully tight. The new Sandvik relied on a single unique screw, and the screw was carrying the force. Having a good tight screw was critical with this new drill body. And sure enough there was only one screw with each drill body and no spares. I told them this was a bad idea. And eventually in a few months the screw got wallowed out and could not be fully tight any longer, the insert got loose, and a bunch of parts got scrapped with O/S holes. And they had an investigation, and I told them "I told you so", and they got mad, and the Sandvik rep took that drill body back.

Yes but in the video you see that the p in the plus tools was at the end of the designation not after the t.

@@metamorphicorder still worth being thorough and explaining difference, plus discuss Ribe bits too

Is this security torx (like the "tamper proof" screws you see in bathroom stalls) or something different?

@@Trent-tr2nx it's Different, the opposite of security torx

@@erikpieh6485 fascinating!

@@erikpieh6485 Is it the one where the cylinder comes from the driver ?