The stated goal of Project MMO is complete in Guild Wars 2 - Mike has completed all of the raids. Although he will of course be doing all of the strikes in End of Dragons so don't worry. Today we look at Wings 5 to 7 and why he understands the Raids going the way of the dodo. Where did you stand on the raids, are you happy or sad to see them go? P.S if you need any additional incentive to stick around, there is some cute doggo in parts of this video.

Hey Preach! Mukluk here, I don't know if you'll see this but just wanted to say it was a blast watching you work through these raids. You were looking at my guides after each boss you killed to see what mechanics you did right and wrong and it was an absolute joy watching you piece everything together. (Also when you realized things like the fire patch killing the Q2 adds and flipped out XD ) Wishing you the best of luck as you work through the strike missions!

If the raid fights have a challenge mode, you've got to do the challenge mode. A lot of these raid fights had the challenge mode designed first, then they stripped away some of the mechanics for normal mode - which is why some normal mode fights feel lackluster. After dhuum was launched, there was incredibly low raid participation from the community (less than 1% of players beat a single raid boss). So I think they wanted PoF normal mode raids to be easier while making challenge mode PoF raids feel more like a natural progression from HoT raids.

Just wanted to say: your journey through gw has been a joy to watch. 🍺

Not sure who cares but when Preach is talking about Qadim 1 he keeps mentioning Kelthuzad but I’m fairly certain he kept meaning to say Kaelthas from Tempest Keep. That’s the fight he absolutely adores

Super ready for the 2 hour long video from Mike and the team called “Project MMO” just diving deep into MMO’s, their history, their philosophy, the iterations, and what might be coming in the future

Don't forget that Raids and Strike Missions can be completed in any order. There isn't an attunment or gearing path with raids at end-game so having a steady progression in difficulty isn't really the point of the experience. That's the mindset of a linear-gamer. Players could (and have) started on Wing 5. My first raid encounter was Slothazor. It might be the strength (or weakness) of a horizontal progression MMO.

Preach, understand that Wing 7 was made with its CMs in mind, then stepped back. The best example of this is the lightning on QtP, which is pointless damage in normal mode but it is permanent area denial in CM so positioning actually matters there. Similarly, Adina becomes much more about real-estate in CM as well.

Really Really informative video series on GW2 raids - really looking forward to a similar series to the Savage raid progression over the years, what they learned, what they didnt, etc

Mike: Dhuum took 45-50 pulls. Video: Our pull counter confirmed that was a lie.

Please do the EoD strikes on CM. they are far too easy to do on NM. Doing CM raids would probably be a fun for you, they add a bunch of fun to the fights

Awesome journey so far, love this project a lot!

I so agree with you about insta-wipes - far better to get a few chances to try again without having to start over and over while not knowing how it works. Reading other comments though, you probably should go back and do the CMs - some of the encounters you didn't like might improve if you do.

It is super interesting watching the different approaches you guys have taken to bosses vs the more common "strats" for those bosses are. I always feel like w6 and w7 Qadim's should be the other way around (even though story wise that doesn't work) Q1 would have been so much better to end w7 as a big epic finale (that said I do really enjoy QTP). As other's have said, the CMs for these raids are a lot of fun. Also another vote for doing Harvest Temple Strike!

This was a fun watch and I enjoyed your journey good sir! Will you be doing the challenge modes of the Guild Wars 2 raids/Strikes/Fractals to contrast between the designs of the encounters ?

As someone who'd love to do blind raiding, having fights that don't just wipe you when you don't do it right would make it so much more feasible.

Now you need to do the CMs of all bosses.

I’m glad you enjoyed some of the bosses and also found flaws in others. I hope you’ll continue on into EoD strikes and their CMs, as a couple of them are known to be similar to/harder the raid encounters

Yep, the primary issue is they never managed to find a good "road" for raid content. That's hardly the raid design team's fault however - it was just impossible from the start. The mistakes were made long before then, during original game design that resulted in massive differences between different tiers of players. As a result, the gaps within the community became so big it was impossible to create a content that would be both truly challenging and interesting for "endgame"-interested more hardcore players, and yet be open enough to make it sustainable in the long run. Maybe if they went with the idea of several difficulty tiers in the beginning it would have ended up better, but i'm afraid even then there would have been issues.

I just didn't like for a game that was from day about "Play however you want" they locked an endgame essential gear type behind it. Legendary armor and its ability to swap without any restrictions should have been obtainable in all game modes. They added one for PvP which was great but it still leaves out the pure PvE crowd. It's fine if it's more difficult to acquire but it really should have never been reliant completely on group coordination. Some people prefer to solo MMOs and that should have been considered. GLAD to see it coming to secrets of the obscure XP. Also, I loved raids - wish I had a good regular group to do them with but they are always fun. I usually love them in MMOs in general.

Had a blast watching you showing their mistakes and weaknesses and successes and accomplishments as well. When do you think you gonna try Challenge Modes(cm) of those encounters btw?

Been waiting on you to go to GW2 expac 4 & 5 and Strikes... If you were waiting on Christmas, it is almost here!

You have to kill the strike HT(harvest temple) in challenge mode. Is the most challenging fight in the whole game

Are you guys going to be doing Challenge Modes? I'm curious how this would possible change your opinion of some fights if you guys do them. I agree though that Q1 is such a good boss fight!

It's weird you said that Adina is easier with less people, cause I raid a lot and the opposite is my experience. The tank can't get a pillar, but every other person can, so if you have 4 people dead, everyone except the tank has to walk away and do a pillar. And with less people, you also have to merge pillars, cause if you leave some standing she gets the buff. Also, in Challenge Mode, there's an added twist that pillars destroy the floor piece they spawn on, so if you prolong the fight you get less and less room to work with. Anyways, I likes these videos. It's been very interesting to watch. I hope you enjoy the EoD Strikes (I can place my bets that you won't enjoy IBS strikes), but the CMs of those is where it's at. The Normals are tuned more casually then even the easier raids because of how few people raided.

I suspect barely anyone has raid experience because it’s so difficult to find a group.

I can't imagine saying you have the full GW2 raid experience when you haven't touched any of the CM's.

Wow, after watching this I'm really keen to see Preach and crew do Kings Fall and the other Destiny raids. I think he'll really like them

Tbh when it comes to endgame content the biggest point to play gw2 is the combat system, visuals and class variety. So if you take the overall easier encounters compared to e.g. ff14 but try to get the max out of your class or simple play a wide range of different roles/mechanics of those it is still pretty enjoyable. Back when my raid group progress through the wings we ofthen times had to adjust classes, or learn something just for a certain boss.

what I really like is that every kind of content remains always challenging even when new xpac comes out, etc. there is not any power creep that would make that content soloable/not rewarding/pointless to do. (except for dungeons), but those still must be done for some legendary crafting etc

congrats on completing all the raids

This is a nice insight, but most of the later bosses really are meant to be played on Challenge Mode, it really completes bosses such as QtP and the rest of Wing 7, along with making Wing 4-6 really feel like proper raids

As someone who would like to try raiding in GW2, but can't match my playtime with any guild raiding time (so far), it's nice to see this kind of videos. Thank you

I've heard some dev stories through the grapevine for W7. Qadim 2 changed lead devs halfway through from what I understand and that probably is what you're feeling.

just downloaded this game for the first time ever, last mmo i played was pirates of the Caribbean online when i was like 7

I get the part with it being odd that the fight gets easier as QTP gets lower, but i think overall the fight is very good. The same goes for the entirety of w7, it's some pretty good bosses. Not perfect but really good. Definitely better than the first 4 wings

Out of curiosity, why wasn't End of Dragons or Secrets of the Obscure covered? The playlist is really cool to see, but it cuts off here which is a little weird considering how much improved in EoD.

Hey Preach, you should really try some of the CM (Challenge modes) For W4567. Maby then you opionion will change for some bosses. Some CM's are way better and improve the overall boss fight. Some are a bit meh.

guild wars 2 is so weird, like sometimes its peak mmo content and other times... is not. i still think the journey was worth it cause the game is alive and still getting content, which i'd love for preach to cover.

I feel like if Preach decided to do these fights again with an experienced group and maybe trying out the CMs in w7, his impressions would prolly be more positive. Glad he had an overall positive impression on w5 and 6 tho.

Strike CMs are basically the equivalent of raids at this point in the game. As sad as i am that raids arent being made anymore, I'm looking forward to seeing how you like strikes.

"Devs don't want to have bosses go beyond 10 minutes any more these days" Every Ultimate encounter in FF14: Bonjour

I love to see how much you love your dog

Cardinal Adina on CM is a really cool change, it's worth doing that. Otherwise agree that each of these bosses needed a little more time in the oven. I would have really liked to see QTP require you to place fires "correctly", it would have been really fun seeing you try and figure that out. Instead placing them randomly on the edge just makes the boss more tedious but not harder.

Yeah w1-4 were a mixed bag of difficulty. Gorseval back in the day had pretty hard dps checks, and then you just roll over the rest of the raid wing. Problen is power creep has destroyed that fight. People would legitimately kill the first boss of w1 and just move on.

I hope with how far you've come you'll also consider doing End of Dragons, even if just to round off your story experience. It has such a pleasant culmination of everything you've worked towards, that it'd be a shame to miss out on it. Especially after that downer of an Icebrood Saga.

Wing 7 was definite,y designed around the challenge mote because those actually feel like how the bosses should have been. But also with w7 is i am pretty sure the raid team was on their way out but they had to add the wing for the legendary ring. I don't think w7 is horrible but it is such a step back from 5 and 6, 6 being by far the best wing imo

The new 'raid' strikes of GW2 are fun and more accessible, but I fear they are losing their identity simply taking FF14 raid style but not adapting it to the GW2 combat style. It is a good step and requires more refining until they find their own raid identity

Played GW1 since launch, then got in line at Game Stop and got some GW2 shirts signed and have been playing GW2 since launch. Got some legendaries, have all classes and races and each classes, hundreds of builds, maxed out lvl 100 in Fractals, but guess what--NEVER did a raid. Seems stressful, inconvenient, and a side end game that I never had any desire to do. Same with Strikes if it wasn't needed for some crafting.

Mike, remember that for the playerbase to discover the issues with the raids, they have to step foot in them first. And fact is that the majority of the playerbase has not even done that. The raids may or may not have issues, that's besides the point for GW2 players. They're simply not raiders, that's not the kind of activity that they play GW2 for. I have been a raider in WoW for many, many years. But I don't do raids in GW2 at all. I log in to that game with an entirely different purpose. I have done a few strikes though, because that's more in line with what I want out of GW2. Strikes are on-demand quick content. Go in, kill shit, get out. 15 minute adventure! GW2 is not a game where people like to commit several hours to the same activity at the same time of day every week, it's the game where you can just log on and have some fun at your own leisure. (For most people anyway) That's the main reason raids in GW2 are unsuccessful, it's not because of the raids themselves. Perhaps it could be, but it hasn't even come that far. A good thing about GW2 raids is that they more or less stay relevant forever. If you wanna go back and try Qadim 1 again in 2 years, you absolutely can. It'll always be there for you.

time to start raiding again! :D

I used to play GW2 years ago and did want to raid, but was told by our raid leader I wasn't good enough to be included in the team because the raid play was extremely difficult. That was disappointing, but I understood once he explained how difficult mechanics were that if you made one small misstep, the raid would wipe. I remember the personal story dungeon setups and understood how poorly designed the game play was because, unless you were an uber player and had the very best gear, your personal story would fail. When I did my personal stories, at some I was able to group up with other guild mates to help me out but even then it was horribly over tuned and difficult. I no longer play GW2, which is sad because I started with the beta and had fun with it. But as I progressed I was mostly questing and learning the lore. Due to my mobility limitations with my hands, I was unable to do anything else.

I love these videos! I do encourage him to check out the Raid CMs to see if the challenge modes made them any better. There is Keep Construct CM from W3, then W4-7 has CMs for every boss fight.

You're missing out if you move on from the raids without trying the CMs, though I wouldn't do them fully blind; I would atleast know what mechanics they add before going in.

will preach also review the Fractals :)? that'd be awesome

There's a real clarity issue in terms of late-game content. I was there for the entirety of Icebrood Saga and never learned that they discontinued raids, so when strikes came out I just got tired immediately at the idea of having yet another end-game content to focus on.

Preach likes her GW2 content! The only thing that strikes me is that I get the impression that you are still looking at the GW2 content from a WOW/FF14 perspective. Raids are a supplement for 1. Anet uses raids to complete one or more stories from GW1, 2. additional content + PVE Legy armor.

i would love to join for the strikes its been so hard to find a group for anything as a newer player im 300 hours in and have yet to group for anything but trains

I feel like all the cm's of w7 should be the normal modes. Also qadim the peerless gets new mechanic after 40 but ignoring it doesnt matter

Suppose you meant to say Kael'thas not Kel'thuzad? Remember you mentioning Kael'thas from the eye as favourite boss fight.

Wholesome ending to the raiding and the video.

Wing 8 just announced today with the new GW2 expansion! React on it Preach! Excited to hear your thoughts on it you will come back to Tyria :)

Time to go do the challenge motes and rank those ^_^

how easy is it to get into guild wars 2? do i need to spend weeks grinding leveling and gear grinds?

Dhuum is the bigboy because it is the iconic BANHAMMER from guildwars1, gms would teleport to the player and "dhuum" the players with the ban"scythe" . you can youtube that its funny :P

come for gw2 content, stay for Bendog

still waiting for fractals & Eod stikes video. i think you will enjoy them

Snarky raid community killed potential of that aspect of the game. Was a missed opportunity

You could probably stand to check out WvW before the expansion. It is kind toxic, but the raid like mentality on FA, Mag and others is fascinating.

I would recommend to do all the strikes first time with CMs.

Ben better still be getting that belly rub. No leaving!

I often wonder how great and accessible GW2 raiding could have been if they simply caved and did have a holy trinity. As it stands the game has a meta of roles, they are just roles that no one outside of GW2 understands right away. I think had the game adhered to the traditional holy trinity system and offered additional difficulty levels for the fights we'd be in a different place than we currently are. All that said, I'm pumped for the upcoming expansion and really enjoyed watching your journey through this Preach!

At least they gave it a shot valiant as you said.

Is mike saying Kel'thuzad or Kael'thas?

its because they need the chase items and harder content. that why wow always has the player base it does, some one will do a raid 50 times if they get a rare mount or peice of gear not many people have. you dont have to break the mold and come up with a whole new thing or gimmick. if some one made something similar to wow but with their own take on it. it would be amazing dungeons and raids from wow, crafting system from ff14

The fights were created first and nm fight is a stripped version of that. Would make more sense for him to play all cms tbh!

Carried throught the raids

When’s that second destiny raid coming out?

Good assessment, i agree with everything you felt on these 5 through 7 wings. But you cant make it definitive unless you have run 5 through 7 on CM modes. That would be more close to final raids encounters. I hope you guys can pull that off some day and make a video about it!!

Kind of a bummer you don't like w7 that much, Adina and Q2 are pretty much my favourite encounters the entire PoF set

As a long time GW2 player who just completely bounced off the raids, I think the main reason GW2 raids failed is they aren't in line with the rest of GW2's content. The vast majority of GW2's PVE content is not very organized. Meta's can be hard but they are also kind of simple in many ways. No one is required to be a tank or healer. GW2 was built around the idea that everyone can heal and everyone's capable of taking care of themselves. So a mode that forces everyone back into traditional MMO roles was bound to have some friction with the ongoing playstyle of most people. Add into it that if you aren't a raider, being told to go get specific gear and play a specific way also went against how the game worked in open PVE. There are people who love that kind of gameplay but the average player just wasn't interested.

All the time you werent talking about kell thuzad but about kael thas!

The ending really makes me wish I wasn't allergic to other animals lol

Sike! another raid is on the way :D

if is to easy go Cm's and you see the difference cheers

Check out the Dhuum fight from GW1!!

11:50 Not sure who was happier, Preach or Ben dog.

I wonder what's next in project mmo.

We wouldn't they start over... Raids can be an excellent experience to run with others.

I will say. They made them easier to make regular players try them. Then they added challenge modes for the real raid experience.

god dam 71 pulls i give u respect for that

19:34 I think he means kael'thas, right?

Time to do the only raid New World has, the Sandwurm, not that it's very good LOL

Well, they are coming soon now, will he try it out maybe?

I don't know if there is any other comment mentioning this, so I'll say it. The reason wing 7 is much easier than wing 6 is because many players complained about the difficulty of Wing 6. There were less power creep back then, so the DPS check were much much tougher. The design of raid 7 since the beginning was to make it easy.

The only reason why I haven’t stuck around for raids (and believe me I have done a bit of them) was because of the barrier to entry People keep bringing up raid training Discords but because of the timezone I’m in, coupled with training groups being so full and/or have trainings held only on weekdays meant that I just gave up on ever finding a group to do such content with

Mike, can you team please please please update wow weakauras for dragonflight?8

GW2's a great game but they've definitely struggled over the years with finding their path for instanced group content. I gave raids a try back when wing 1 was first released but I could never gel with them, and so never did any others. Fractals are great and all, but uninviting for new players with how far ahead most of the core playerbase is, and even though I think their 1.0 dungeons were not too bad at all, they just... gave up on them after 1.0 and nerfed the rewards into oblivion to remove any incentive to do them. Conversely, I reckon the place GW2's encounter designers excel the most in is definitely their open world, map-wide metas. The HoT ones are just ~fun~ and give out a good amount of rewards (my favourite is Mordremoth), and it's really great that there are guilds who still gather up and run them for that reason. Given the design philosophy for the game, with open world drop in/drop out rolling events I think that's for the best and I'm glad it's something they've stuck with over the years instead of leaving by the wayside like dungeons and raids. I started playing at launch and I _still_ do vanilla world bosses -- the little tune-ups they've given them over the years have definitely helped them keep up with the style of the game (even though I kinda miss the whole 'do this pre-event chain to spawn the boss' part that's still a thing for bosses like Ogre, Eye, and Shaman). Overall though I really, REALLY think GW2's biggest problem with attracting players is the 1-60, 1.0 experience. Design-wise it's so far removed from the much, MUCH better LW1/HoT and on method of storytelling that when I suggest friends try GW2 I have to stress that the clunky nature of 1.0 is not how the whole thing plays out and the level cap experience is vastly different.

Well, it's a bit like saying that you won the formula 1 championship when in fact you simply just got your driving license, but ok, I'm glad you enjoyed this short visit to Guild Wars 2, I hope to see you again soon for a more enjoyable experience. thorough :)

Did Chat explain him who Dhuum was? ^^