Haha, I wasn't going to comment anything about using the word flu incorrectly but I love your comment lol. Oh interesting story about those dampers, I found one while metal detecting in mint condition. Had a date of 18something, I can't quite remember now. Kind of stupid but I thought it was a cool find! It was a 19th century logging camp here in Colorado outside of Idaho Springs.

@@mikemiller6065 I feel like you deserve some sort of a prize for actually reading the comment. Lol. I've had so many angry old language policing internet tough guys throwing death threats and hate mail my way for this video. haha. Like, suddenly you need a redneck aerospace certification to operate a wood stove. It's been pretty humorous to see how many guys came out of the woodwork to throw in their 2 cents and stroke their own egos. Maybe the words are wrong. I don't really care. We call it what we've always called it. Short story is.... this is an easy way to get the job done, and it works great every time. People who didn't come here to pick this video apart got something out of it and that has been well worth it. Thanks for your comment! Thanks for being part of the conversation. Hope to talk with you more in the future in other video comment sections! Thanks for watching!

I’m from Florida and have lived in NC, TN, and TX. Evvvvryone called that flapper-doodle the flue. The thing the flue was in they called the chimney, the pipe, or the stack. Or the “DON’T TOUCH THAT IT’S HOT TOO!!!” The English language is ever evolving. If you and everyone you know calls it a flue, it’s a ding dang flue. If the whole roomful of people from the 3 yr old to great granny know exactly what you mean when you say “ open the flue”, “close the flue”, and “why is there so much smoke in here, did a bird nest on the damn flue?” it’s a flue. You keep calling it a flue!

Only the old wood and coal heaters require these. A air tight wood heater doesn't and it will further restrict air flow in the flue causing excessive creasote build up.

This is PERFECT information. Everyone read this! Agreed, although my stove technically does not need a damper it just gives me MORE control and lets me burn the wood even lower and slower. My full firebox can EASILY make it through the night when I do this. Great comment.

I’ve considered a baffle but I think I’m gonna end up with a different stove eventually. Agreed on the baffle. People keep saying it’s unnecessary… which is their choice. But, I like the control it offers. Thanks for watching and commenting

Thanks, man! appreciate that! Lots of dudes wanna died their tool collection but… it ain’t necessary here. Sometimes the simple tool is the right tool.

Haha. I appreciate the conversation either way! Nice to meet you. Merry Christmas.

Thanks Paul! I appreciate that. Glad it was useful. Thanks for watching and for commenting!

Thats awesome! Just don't smoke yourself out! haha. Thanks for the comment! Glad the video was useful.

Listen.... I'm not gonna say it's the BEST way...... but it sure it sounds like the AWESOME way. I do have an extra chunk of pipe... hmm..... NAH. Knowing KZfaq I'll end up with some sort of violation. Nice tip, John. That is the MANLIEST suggestion I've seen yet for such a simple project. Haha.

Shotgun with birdshot works too ! ... Pick a hole ... Any hole .

HAHA. "Why not 2 dampers? WHY NOT 4 DAMPERS? We got the holes!"

@@thejoyoffixing I have a Woodstock Fireview Model 205, which is 22 years old. At the end of the burn season, I had a new 6" stainless steel liner installed. Now I'm running into issues with the woodstove overheating in bypass mode using the catalytic converter, even when the manual air control lever is closed down to under .5 on their settings from zero to five(full open). Woodstock suggested I have a damper installed to control the strong updraft. I have checked the stove out for other leaks from door seals, the damper bypass door, leaks in the firebox and can find nothing. I have replaced the firebox door, gaskets and complete top lid within the last two years. The only conclusion I can come up with is, since the stove functioned beautifully last winter, is the new liner has created too much of an updraft. Also, the liner was insulated going up the masonry chimney.

@@margaretbarton613 That's interesting. Yeah it must be due to the install. If at that point there was suddenly a difference in how it operated... that must have caused it. What a pain in the keister.

You bet!

Unfortunately it's so far inside of a finished basement there's no way to pipe it in. But I have some plans for the future when we tear out one of the walls that might give me some access.

@@thejoyoffixing The thing about a woodstove is that one always seems to improve the functionality of the unit. Well done fella.

Thanks, buddy!

@@thejoyoffixing Your stove looks like an Ashley cabinet heater, which was similar to a Sears branded stove of similar appearance. I don't feel that a stovepipe damper is necessary since your stove already has an air control in the form of a dial on the front of its cabinet. Here's what I see - At 1:27 in your video you show the ash door is open while the kindling is burning way too fast and you say "Granted, I'm leaving a lot of air for it". I also see the chain on the left inside of the cabinet leading down to the combustion air flap at the bottom left of the ash bin. The chain should be connected to a either a manual adjustment or to (bi-metallic spring) thermostat which had an adjustment knob on the upper part of the cabinet. Most importantly, the stove should never be operating with the ash door open - in fact the ash door must have an airtight gasket and be kept tightly closed except when the fire is out and the ashes are being shoveled out. The air that feeds the fire (combustion air) should be entering ONLY through the flap controlled by the stove's thermostat. As the stove heats up, either you (stove operator) or the thermostat will allow the chain to lower the air intake flap thereby controlling the burn rate. When you or the thermostat senses that the fire needs to grow larger, it (you) will pull the flap open by turning the knob and admit more air and the fire will increase in intensity - until the thermostat, once again, lowers the flap far enough to slow the airflow into the fire. You might be able to find the stove's instruction manual online. Hope this helps you out.

Sven, you are actually absolutely correct on all of this. I am aware of all of this and that is exactly how I operate my stove. However, I greatly thank you for stating these facts because I've received multiple messages from people who have this style of stove and have no idea how to use it. Great information laid out here. The bi-metallic spring is truly like... a genius little piece of science. It never becomes less fascinating to me that something so simple is so incredibly perfect for this situation. Truly this style stove is simple to look at but a LOT of thought and practical design and simple science obviously went into it. For the sake of the video I did use the ash door as a means of accelerating certain processes for the sake of filming time. However, I never abused the process to the point that I was producing over exaggerated results for the video. Just wanted to show exactly what was happening inside, which is hard to do without melting my phone. haha. As I've mentioned in other videos, a flue damper is NOT at all required on this type of stove. It's designed to happily run without one. HOWEVER, for certain wood species or certain ultra low temperatures I occasionally want to produce from this stove, it helps me further regulate what's happening with the updraft and in my specific case I find it useful. Regardless, to someone who has a wood burner that does NOT have this type of setup and does not have a built in damper... this video should be extremely helpful to them if they don't know how to get control of their stove. Once again, thank you so much for your post. These stoves are mysterious to some folks. I got both of mine from folks who tore them out because they simply didn't understand how they worked! I personally think that they are some of the best made stoves you can get your hands on.

Thank you! Cheers!

Awesome. I'm glad it helped! Thanks for watching and thanks for commenting. =)

Thanks

For cheap wood stove purchases, yes that damper is a must but if you own a high-end wood stove most of those will have a built-in damper.

Agreed.

Please read the description. Thanks for watching. Hope it helped.

Bingo. Some day, after some more expensive projects are completed, I'm looking forward to getting one of these newer stoves with the ability to burn the woodgas at a smolder. Such a cool idea. Speaking of woodgas, I'm thinking of building a wood-gas generator this summer. MAYBE.

@@chrisostendorf I too have a long run out (28ft) and find that a barometric damper works well for this. These allow the chimney flow to remain just vigorous enough to prevent back drafting (puffing) while still allowing the stove work at optimum system efficiency.

Thanks! I appreciate the comment.

You are so welcome

Agreed

I do believe most modern stoves are designed that way with what's known as a 'reburner'.

@@fritzkabeano1969 If I had the cash I'd get one of those. Longer burn times. Less thick smoke. it's practically a gasifier.

I heated with those type stoves Ashley, king, warm morning for many years and all of the ones i had came from the factory with a baffle to slow the smoke from entering the flue pipe.@@thejoyoffixing

I put the thermostat all the way up when getting the fire going and starting the updraft. Once it's burning I barely have it open at all and it puts off a ton of heat. Every stove will be different.

This stove seems hard to add that to but I’ve watched a bunch of videos on the subject and it definitely is a game changer.

I use dryer lint all the time. Love that.

Haha. Nice

Haha. Dynamic duo over there. You gotta draw up a chart showing the different damper position combinations you have come up with (all with a folksy name) and constantly try to reinforce them with your family members. haha

I suppose you could. Shouldn’t be a problem.

Thank you

I agree with absolutely everything you said here. A lot of people are going to argue with putting a damper in the flu pipe on an Ashley style stove but I like the extra level of control right there at the flue pipe. There’s never anything wrong with putting in an extra level of control on some thing that involves fire. Thank you for your comment. I’m glad you took the time to leave it.

This is a great conversation to have.Thank you for starting it. This is one big thing I want to facilitate in these videos. We all have different equipment, experience and different access to different species of wood. There are some hard and fast rules, and there are individual rules. This makes for a great discussion! Thanks for bringing it up!. If your stove already has a damper, obviously this is an unnecessary step. Agreed. This stove in the video is an older model but it's quite high end. It has an automated thermostat that operates based off of the heat of the stove and controls the inlet of air. Theoretically, when the stove is to the heat you select you are going to see the air inlet close itself and you'd keep the fire from burning any hotter. However, with with softer woods like poplar and some pine, you can notice that the stove wants to burn that soft wood as fast as it can (especially if there are good hot colas in the stove). Despite the air inlet door being closed, the fire will still pull air from anywhere it can get it regardless of how well the stove is sealed up. Sometimes it does this thing that is similar to a backdraft where it is literally burping any air it can get from down the chimney. This then leads to dark yellow smoke burping out the top of the chimney above the roof and leaving a heavy gross cloud of unburnt wood-gas lingering in the air. So, this flu, in my situation, is ONLY to help with regulation of a rip-roaring box full of coals trying to prematurely erode the fresh wood above it at an undesired pace. Once I get to the point where the hardwoods are piled in for the night, I can typically just open that damper all the way up and shut my air inlet door to the smallest crack. This keeps the hardwood (oak, pecan, walnut) burning nice and slow all night and producing even heat throughout the house. During the day sometimes, depending on the species of wood I am burning or the length of time I want to burn a fire, it's nice to open up the air inlet a little bigger than necessary and just do simple old school updraft regulation using the flue damper. ABSOLUTELY, if you have a stove with a damper already in it... this video has no bearing and should be disregarded. However, with any other wood stove that has no way to regulate the updraft, this video is for you!

Glad I saw you post,I have a Lopi Liberty wood stove and was wondering if I need a pipe damper.only puts fire up the stove pipe when the bypass is pulled out. Think I will hold off for now.

@@timpinkerton2893 Yeah I think that's a good idea. Just the fact you have the bypass suggests you probably don't need it. It's a great idea for stoves that have no output regulation whatsoever but yours sounds like it does.

The name of the video is literally "How to Add a Flue Updraft Damper to a Wood Stove Chimney Pipe"

@@thejoyoffixing But you held the damper in your hand and called it a flue? Just sayin

@@wazzeradk9398 yep at 2:37 lol all good. Still good video

@@thejoyoffixing The title is clear- great video.

@clark garrison - Thanks for your graceful understanding. None of us are perfect. Sometimes we just get in the habit of saying something wrong even when we can explain it correctly. Appreciate the positivity.

Yeah that must be a secondary burner. That's awesome. And you proooobably DO NOT need a damper.

Mine is also an "Ashley style" stove. I understand exactly what you're talking about. The popping noises are completely normal, although it is possible to let the stove burn too hot and rip flames clear up the flue pipe, although it's not abnormal. First off, do you understand how the "self regulating thermostat" works, and how you use it to control your air flow? If not, we should start there. With this style stove a "flue damper" is not completely necessary at all. Understanding how the stove works is going to be your number one step to success. The flue damper being added to this style stove is like... a little more advanced way of regulating the temperature and burn time you're getting out of this stove. Let me know if you understand how the thermostat coil and the air intake door that it's attached to work, and we can go from there. I'm even possibly willing to do a video specifically on how this equipment works.

@Yourtakingmylife - Waiting for a reply! =)

@@thejoyoffixing Thanks for replying, I just now saw it. I know the little thermostat thing works by a coil of metal that is sensitive to temperature fluctuations. So in turn when the stove heats up, the coil expands n closes the little door. When the fire dies down and the stove starts to cool off, the coil contract's and pulls the little door back open. These things happen depending on where you have it set at between high and low. I'm pretty sure that's how it works? My stove is like your was there's so much draft, it wants to suck the flames up the chimney pipe. You can't even light a fire in the stove if you have the damper completely open and the air intake open (knob set to high). It will literally blow the flame out...

@@yourtakingmylife3472 Yeah it's a lot of air flow! you better have a good pile of kindling if you start it that way because it's like a jet engine blowing through there once the fire starts burning and that fire is HUUUUUUNGRY.

@@thejoyoffixing One more thing, I was reading the manual for the stove awhile back (which btw isn't at all helpful). I remember it saying something about this stove was supposed to have an "Automatic damper " or something to that effect. Have you ever heard of that? My main concern is creosote build up bc I constantly feel like I'm having to smother the fire by keeping it on low and closing the damper 3/4 of the way. From what I've been gathering here and there, by researching trying to learn as much as I can to be safe, it's not great to run a stove like that all the time. I feel that I'm using what I have seen described as like a " night time" longer burn method, all the time to keep the house from being a thousand degrees. I never put more than three or four pieces of wood in at once, so I know I'm not overloading it. Idk? Hope all that made sense. I just want to be as safe as possible and do things right. But I have had no clue where to go to learn these types of things, so thank you again for your help.

The trick is to push the pin. Grab the handle portion and push it toward the damper. It will compress the spring and you will be able to twist the pin and remove it from the channel it's locked in.

I WISH IT WAS BREAKING FOR A COMMERCIAL. lol. No such luck, at least in any monetary form. Yeah I had a little segment about installing the pipes and where to put the screws but it didn't make it through editing, somehow. Hot tip: When screwing 2 pieces of metal together with a self tapping screw make sure you are screwing both pieces of metal together! haha

Thanks so much. I hope you'll subscribe and join me for some upcoming projects I have coming up. Thanks for watching.

Big fan. Have another one in the garage.

I typically open the damper all the way when adding wood, to avoid the smoke-out. I don't even use the damper all of the time, but for a low slow burn at night when the house is already warm it has proven to really help control the hard draw the updraft can force through the stove. ESPECIALLY on my style stove they're typically unnecessary, but I have a specific use for mine so it's good for me. True there are 2 elbow, but still once that updraft is ripping... the corners barely matter. I can end up with flames reaching all the way up and part that top elbow into the vertical run into the wall. That's what I'm trying to avoid, and the damper achieves that. Good comments! Everyones situation is different.

As long as you keep a thermometer on your single wall pipe to keep the temperature up to around 300 degrees you wont be building to much creasote. I also let mine run wide open for a few minutes each day to help burn off anything sticking to the inside of the chimney that day. I also use creasote reducing firelogs periodically and burn only good seasoned wood below 18% moisture content. Clean the chimney once a year and zero problems with using my damper. All night burns(10) hours or so are normal even with my old school Fisher grandpa bear stove. Like he said though,everyone's situation is different

@@ciphercode2298 All very good information. Thank you for adding to the conversation.

@@ciphercode2298 This is accurate. Low burning smoky fires make creosote. In Colorado we burned nothing but pine (sappy pine even) all the time and didn't have much problem with creosote. Just gotta keep the temperature up.

That does happen sometimes.

I have the same hunch as you but this is how the pipe was installed when I arrived at this house. I have plans of flipping the entire assembly and adding another corrugated elbow once I can find one in stock locally. Good eye.

@@thejoyoffixing I've always been told and read the reason the crimp end of metal smoke pipe goes down on wood fired is so that any creosote running down the pipe will run down INSIDE the pipe. If the pipe crimp was up the creosote would run down and out the female end joint. On oil fired furnaces/boilers/stoves we use the galvanized flue or smoke pipe with the crimp end up that way it is said any poison gases like CO will drift up the pipe to the exit opening in chimney (flue). And never use galvanized smoke pipe on a wood burning appliance.

@Roger Rolfe - That is probably the most logical thing I'v heard regarding the direction of the stove pipe. On both of my stoves there is no way to install the pipe the other direction. It would require me doing some crimping to make it happen. The outlet on my stoves only allows for pipes to be assembled with the crimped side down. The creosote idea is really fantastic. Makes a TON of sense! I might mention that in another video.

Please read the description. I've addressed this multiple times. Thanks for watching. I appreciate it.

Had me baffled flue. I mean , too.

@@mikecurliss848 You know what they say... kindling in the hand is worth flue in the chimney.... er.... wait... something about birds? I give up.

It’s not necessary on a stove with a built in damper. It’s just another means of control at a different bottleneck. Many people like a nostalgic old wood burner and this is most relevant to that crowd

@@thejoyoffixing don't HV a built in damper..guessing getting it installed n using it if it helps or just leave it opened incase it doesn't help much would be best? Guess what I'm asking is no serious drawbacks if I do get one?

Correct. Worst case you see no value and leave it wide open!

Yeah these old stoves ain’t fancy. A baffle makes good sense. Wonder where I could pick something up.

Yes, I said that in the video. I’ll be posting a basic “how to use an Ashley/Wood King style stove” video in tye next month or two. It seems folks are baffled by the basic operation of these stoves.

I believe you're exactly correct. This stove, somehow has just enough leaks that it is not perfectly regulating the intake through the intake damper this unit has. If the damper is closed, and the ash door is closed AND the feed door is closed, the fire can still get ROARING. Well.... at least burning enough that you can hear the wood crackling inside. It's not, by any means a NEW stove. It's fairly old but in very nice condition. I've replaced the rope gaskets in all of the doors. So... the only thing left to do was regulate the updraft so I can "ultra-slow burn at night". The damper in the flue seems to do the trick. During the daytime I don't need the damper, unless it gets so hot in the house that we're down to t-shirts and still breaking a sweat. haha.

“(d)Dampers. 1. Manually operated dampers are prohibited in chimney or vent connectors of all appliances except wood-burning appliances. 2. A listed, automatically operated damper may be used with any heating appliance provided it is installed and used in accordance with the appliance and damper listing. ” Wis. Admin. Code SPS § SPS 323.15

@@thejoyoffixing Well put, my wood fired boiler has a electric draft inlet that opens and closes to match the thermostat (aquastat) on the boiler. The installation manual calls for a barometric damper set at -.02" WC (- .02 WC(Water column) and on that unit it says not to use a manual damper like yours. Here if I went away from the manufacturers instruction and had a house fire my my house insurance would be void. Hope no one gets this the wrong way because if the manufacturer says you can put a manual damper on then the is the type you use.

Thanks @Roger Rolfe. If I had a wood fired boiler I would probably not be modifying it at ALL from the manufacturer setup, as that is a whole different animal (and one I wish I had).

All great points. The Indian damper was definitely my best option locally. The Chinese one was like.... you could feel it was practically zinc. haha. My little shop doesn't currently have electrical so my tool power is limited, unless I have the generator out there. Once I get some outlets down there I'll end up having more tools to fabricate with at my disposal and maybe..... MAYBE I'll make my own damper some day. I've had a hard time finding another corrugated elbow locally but apparently there's a store in the next town that stocks them so next time I was out there I was gonna go looking for one. Indeed, those movable elbows can fall apart eventually from getting so cold and then hot over and over again. The stainless pipe would be great, but I honestly don't mind having the extra surface area letting off heat in my situation. Plus it's less than a 5 foot run of pipe and it's straight into the brick chimney. The stove is like.... "King" brand. It's kind of an Ashley style stove with the coil thermostat that automatically articulates the air intake door based on how hot the coil is. Pretty cool unit. I've got another one in the shop that's even bigger. Burn box on this one is probably2 to 2.25 cubic feet. However, you can pack it to the top because it all just slowly burns down throughout the day/night if you set that thermostat to EXTRA LOW and the air is just barely creeping in (once there's a good coal bed going, that is). Thanks for the comments. Great conversation!

@@thejoyoffixing I will watch your channel Joel for sure. The nice thing about my damper is the adjustable locking collars which can be adjusted for wear and tension. The unit is burn proof. The same material that is inside jet engines. The only thing missing is the external heat coating made of ceramic material. Nice conversation with you also Sir.

The adjustable locking collar would be a game changer. Honestly it's nearly impossible to find a complete damper assembly that would include a collar, or a splice, or even just.... you know... it's own housing (clamped or crimped or however it would be made..... but clamping would be nice to avoid all the crimped fitting drama), Also, i'm a sucker for ceramic liners on ANYTHING that's redirecting heat or exposed to constant heat. Wish someone would... make one of these for my SHOP STOVE *cough cough cough* haha Again, thanks for the conversation.

@@thejoyoffixing I can tell you that these days it seams that if you want something really good you have to make it yourself. The excuse of Covid is just a bologna story to make things cheap for a high price, PERIOD. I can tell you that I just love making things for myself. Especially using exotic materials that will not wear out in my lifetime. Must be an addiction that I posses. Peace

I love making stuff too. My daughter as well. It's fantastic to create solutions instead of just buy solutions made of inferior materials, or that don't specifically meet the specifications you desire. Agreed that Covid really fleeced a lot of people who weren't willing to question anything they were sold or told. Tack on outlandish amounts of money fueling proxy wars and some Weimar Republic level inflation and I'm shocked more people aren't turning off their social media and takin action. But.... you know how it is.... people are content trading their freedoms and even their very livelihood for the illusion of safety and immediate comfort. There's a lot of joy in solving problems and fixing little things. Creating things. Figuring stuff out yourself. It's really something everyone could benefit and grow from. Hopefully over the next few years I can help contribute to helping people find a starting point to trying stuff out for themselves. It's a true joy.

I misunderstood this comment, and differ to @Mike Curliss on this one. I appreciate the comment @Ian Coker but I don't think the math works out.

I dont think that works. Outside diameter of dampener probably smaller than inside diameter of flue. Will put hole slightly off which....well....big pain.

@@mikecurliss848 No, I think I understand what he's saying. Like... you could do it with paper too, or anything else thats thin and flexible. Oh wait..... I think I misunderstood. I thought he meant to use the tape to basically mark out where the holes would go, and use the retaining rod independent of the baffle to figure out where the center of the flue pipe was and mark holes. Then, move the tape further down the pipe away from the collar and drill the holes. But yeah... I think he's saying you use the flue for the tape, which means the outside diameter of the damper (which is massively smaller than the outside diameter of the pipe, or even the inside diameter of the pipe) would be far too big and you'd be drilling lopsided holes that would result in not being able to install the actual damper, or at minimum not ever being able to get it anywhere near closed. Good callout. I missed what was being said.

@@thejoyoffixing maybe use a speed square from end of flume to transcribe marks

@@mikecurliss848 I considered it at first but the round pipe doesn’t allow for a not of surface contact at the edge of the square. Plus you’re kind of eyeballing the top line. A rigid square on a curved surface didn’t seem like the right tool for the job. The mailable piece of paper stock worked best.

Exactly!

Well duh

Frank, I absolutely hear where you're coming from. It would be hard for me to explain it anymore than I already tried to but I do notice a difference in the control I have now that I can control air either at the intake or at the discharge. It all depends on what type of wood I'm burning, how wet the wood is, how hot I want to burn or maintain coals. I do notice an extra bit of control. However, I have said in other comments, I do believe this application is, for the most part, redundant. The proper application for a butterfly damper is on a traditional stove that doesn't have a baffle or damper otherwise. Still... I like it for mine. I like locking down the chimney/flue pipe. It works for me.

the male ends are facing the stove. all potential creosote is running downhill.

It was.

Well technically this stove has a damper at the inlet. It’s brilliant. Check out a “king” or Ashley style wood stove. Maybe I should make a video. I have 2.

the Ashley that i have is from the late 70's and it still works great. having said that i would never use it without a damper as it allows me to control the stove better. @@thejoyoffixing

Correct

Agreed. Unless it's some cast iron behemoth intended to replicate a vintage stove, I can't think of ANY newer style stoves that need a damper in the flue. Thanks for adding to the conversation.

@@thejoyoffixing Yeah, I'm not quite sure how I feel about the new stoves. I don't have one so I'm only basing off videos and things I've heard. They are supposed to burn the wood more efficiently. I know a lot of people have issues with them though because unlike the old school ones, you can only burn seasoned wood. From my understanding it's damn near impossible to use anything that isn't seasoned.

@@mikemiller6065 That's pretty interesting. I mean, I do prefer seasoned wood because it isn't burning off moisture. BUT in a pinch, I've gotten away with almost anything in this older stove. With the newer ones that have secondary burn it seems like a whole different animal. Some people love it and some people hate it. They do claim to burn things more efficiently, and the concept makes a LOT of sense. BUT, I've heard from a lot of people who say that the hype is more impressive than the actual product. Hard to really know. I've got 3 stoves and I don't see buying another one anytime soon so.... I just gotta go off of what others with that experience say. So far... there is no consensus that I can find on what the truth actually is.