This Question is the WORST Objection to Theism that Atheist Use | Who created God?

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Jayni Jackson

Jayni Jackson

3 ай бұрын

#god #christianity #apologetics
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Пікірлер: 18
@iljuro
@iljuro 3 ай бұрын
As long as theists keep asserting that everything must have a creator due to some version of the Cosmological argument, it's a perfectly valid question. Either everything needs a creator, period, or we accept that something outside of the universe may exist without a creator.
@jaynijackson
@jaynijackson 3 ай бұрын
I partially agree with that last compound sentence that you made, but I will clarify it a bit for you. Every creation needs a creator. God is not a creation, but rather the Creator of everything that is created. Therefore, God does not need a creator. Also, I agree that there is someone outside of the universe that exists without a creator - we call him God.
@iljuro
@iljuro 3 ай бұрын
@@jaynijackson I know that you believe that but it's not a satisfactory explanation because you haven't explained God. You have just asserted that your particular god is an uncreated creator that doesn't require any explanation and atheists just don't buy that.
@darthbahnsen3832
@darthbahnsen3832 3 ай бұрын
@@iljuro it definitely doesn't explain how one could verify the truth claims of God himself. We could grant the christian every premise they need but in the end the answer is only true "because god can't lie" or "because god is truth." How does one verify THESE claims? The tricky part is thst from God's perspective, it could be an honest answer. God could believe that "god never lies" or "god is truth," and still exist in a simulated reality with parameters such that the bible is true from God's perspective, not knowing that God himself is a being in a 'matrix'-like simulation.
@avishevin1976
@avishevin1976 2 ай бұрын
@@jaynijackson The question that is most pertinent here: was the universe created?
@MyContext
@MyContext 19 күн бұрын
One of the reasons some people take the idea of a God to be reasonable is due to the issue of complexity which tends to beg the question as to how such occurred. However, the idea of a God also begs the question of complexity, which I took seriously. P1: God is denoted as at least a non-contingent intelligence/mind. P2: Cognitive capacities are processes and thus contingent. C1: God is denoted as at least non-contingent contingent. C2: God is incoherent, thus impossible, thus non-existent. This argument serves to point out that the claim of a God is an assertion that is in conflict with what we actually know such that it is at best a fiction and at worse a falsehood. I grant that one can claim that "there could be an intelligence/mind that is non-contingent" , but I could never grant such a notion given what is known such that such a claim REQUIRES substantiation. We know intelligence/minds are extremely complex things. I will grant that this type of an argument may not have been made in the far distant past, but now, given our development of artificial minds, brain organelles, understanding of the brain, and more - it is not something that should escape anyone's notice. I will also grant that my argument will not rescue some from a belief in fiction, since, there is no end to the parade of fiction that one can make up in an attempt to save an idea from being fictional. The Monty Python's Dead Parrot Skit made this abundantly clear decades ago.
@doofusrick5998
@doofusrick5998 3 ай бұрын
It's not necessarily the best argument against any one religion in particular, but it's a perfectly valid response to the kalaam cosmological argument. Theists will always say that it's not special pleading because God is the uncaused causer, but that just presupposes God and sidesteps the question. If the Universe is so complex and finely tuned that it necessitates a creator, an infinitely more complex creator deity would also necessitate a creator. Kierkegaard is pretty based tho
@jaynijackson
@jaynijackson 3 ай бұрын
If God is the uncaused causer, then he does not need a creator as that creator would be God. Also, I don't believe Christians presuppose God, this is what special revelation is for. However, we just recognize that non-Christians do not believe in the Bible's truth claims for whatever reason. Therefore, we try to reason with unbelievers to find a common ground if you will. We 100% acknowledge that logic and reason can't get you all the way to the Christian God, but just to maybe a concept of him. But I digress.
@doofusrick5998
@doofusrick5998 3 ай бұрын
@jaynijackson Why could the creation of the universe as we know it now not be the uncaused cause in itself? Simply asserting that God doesn't need a cause because he's God doesn't meaningfully solve or address the problem of infinite regress. As an atheist I guess I just admit that infinite regress is equally plausible and see God as an unnecessary assumption, especially when it comes to the creation of the universe. By this same logic I could simply assert that the universe doesn't need a cause because it's the uncaused causer, but at least we have proof of the universe existing outside of the kalaam, hence why I see the whole idea as presuppositional
@avishevin1976
@avishevin1976 2 ай бұрын
@@jaynijackson Christians _must_ presuppose god, or the Bible can hold no meaning beyond its literary value. The Bible contains many assertions that are known to be false, so it's hard to take the supernatural aspects seriously. If you can't get nature right, how can we believe it got super-nature correct?
@Justmekpc
@Justmekpc 3 ай бұрын
If god doesn’t need a creator neither does the universe is a really simple concept Until a god can be proven it’s not a logical answer We don’t know if the universe has a beginning we do know about when it started to expand but not begin
@jaynijackson
@jaynijackson 3 ай бұрын
Saying the universe doesn't need a creator doesn't make any sense at all when we know that the universe had a beginning. No scientist denies that the universe had a beginning. So, if the universe had a beginning, that begs the question: who created the universe? You can't say nothing created the universe because we know it's illogical to say that nothing created something. The only logical answer to that question is to assert that God created the universe as no other theory has ever been able to make this make sense.
@Justmekpc
@Justmekpc 3 ай бұрын
@@jaynijackson you can’t say god is an answer to anything until such time that a god can be proven to exist We know around when the universe started to expand but everything that’s in it was already there in a singularity so no we don’t know if it had a beginning We don’t know if it’s the only universe etc
@Justmekpc
@Justmekpc 3 ай бұрын
@@jaynijackson only theists say nothing created something
@avishevin1976
@avishevin1976 2 ай бұрын
@@jaynijackson _If_ the universe was created, _something_ created it. We can call that thing god. Doesn't mean _any_ claim of Christianity is true. Deism is far more logical, given that we've never seen evidence for the creator beyond the universe's existence. But all that presupposes that the universe was created.
@poopandfartjokes
@poopandfartjokes 3 ай бұрын
When atheists ask “who created God?” they aren’t actually making any argument. It’s just a response to theists arguing that “the creation requires a creator”. So to demonstrate how that’s not a proper argument or statement, they ask you the same question.
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