I'm just amazed by the ability of the bicycle industry to create new problems at a pace higher than their abilities to solve existing issues. Bottom brackets, headtubes vs integrated cables, fancy seatposts design, forks, ... This is in a context where bikes are heavier (disk brakes) and prices are exploding (groupsets). What amaze me even more is that people are willing to put even more money in a new bike without having been reassured about the resolution of those existing issues in the industry. Let's not forget that the bicycle market will collapse in the coming years. It has already begun but the worst is yet to come. Hold on to your hats, it's going to hit really hard. So imagine in that context how manufacturers will try to cut costs down. All of this will be a real mixture for catastrophic failures.

When I first saw this threaded carbon, you were the first person I wanted to hear from! Hope things work out soon for your shop, fingers crossed for you

That's a fantastic point re: why don't they just make an accurate press fit?

I'm back 2000's bikes after all the 10k-15k bike I've been on. It's heaven. I can't love a bike for just the looks if it's giving me some kind of different headache every week.

Welcome back, sorry to hear the workshop saga is still ongoing 😢

Press fit manufactured correctly is absolutely fine. I’ve had zero issues with my PF86. I replace it once a year with a Shimano part and it runs perfectly. No creaking, no grinding, nothing. The BB hole is in spec so I don’t even use retaining compound to take up any imperfections. Just a dab of grease to ease removing it next time. Some manufacturers put them in dry but I think grease is worth using. As for threaded carbon I don’t know, if they can get the engineering right it could be a genuine step forward but for me I’m totally happy with press fit. Maybe I just got lucky with my frame and got one that fell in spec.

Do you remember them days when new ideas were tested thoroughly before they'd hit the market? We now live in times where hype men who can read marketing blurbs (e.g. David A.) replaced QE men who can do proper testing before go live.

Welcome back Raoul. Totally agree with your analysis. Just one comment on the particular approach chosen vis a vis pressfit. If pressfit gets a bad reputation due to problems with concentricity and parallel and angular misalignment, this system only addresses concentricity - assuming that the threaded carbon component is manufactured accurately in the first place. But if a manufacturer can't get a pressfit bb aperture axially aligned, why would they do any better when bonding in this threaded insert? Not a good solution!

If the carbon threaded actually works well it would be great for a home mechanic like me. Shimano threaded BB are light, cheap, easy to fit and work really well.

The man, the legend.

First, welcome back! You’ve been missed! Second, Huh? I just don’t believe this marketing. If you can make a round hole, make it for a bearing. Carbon threads? Coatings? Sounds like more risk trying to hide behind fancy marketing. Nope….not interested…. Can’t wait to see what we learn from the pawns.

Happy to see you back w another video! All the best for your workshop ☺️

Great to see you back, thx for the vid

Thanks Raul , great to have u back 👍👍👍

Good to see you again. Hope you are able to make regular videos once more. Strange and somewhat disturbing times we are in. Yes,I saw the Carbon threaded BB and thought WHY!

Hi Raoul. I got to your site via a link from Hambini. We rode around the Hawthorn velodrome many years ago (2001? 2002?) and talked about your carbon fibre bike and the future possibilities for carbon fibre. It's good to hear from you again. Richard.

Sorry to hear of your lockout problem Raoul, no good t all. Hope you get it sorted asap.

Great to have you back!

Very happy to see you back🤗🤗🤗

Good to see new video after such a long brake.

I agree, press fit is so much better. I think we should be using the BB386, the largest possible bore to accommodate almost every crank type.

I don't think press fit is hated by the industry. Consumers decided they want threated BB because of the problems they experienced with press fit. The Threaded Carbon BB is an attemed to mitigate some of the problems that come with threaded BBs in carbon frames (weight, corrosion). I agree that proper implementation of press fit would have been the better way.

Good to see u back

"Remedies" like this one remind me of certain German car manufacturers that used to over-engineer their equipment for decades, relying on the extremely high quality of their parts. However, when the "outsource everything!" mantra became the norm and bean counters started searching for Tier-2 and Tier-3 OEMs to manufacture the "same" part at a fraction of the cost, the quality of the final product started to deteriorate. This is no different from bicycle brands that often look for the cheapest supplier with hardly any quality control to produce complex parts. It was around the same time that PressFit bottom brackets began to gain popularity. No matter how great the concept is, if your Tier-2 supplier isn't up to par, customers will bear the cost.

I have owned a Focus Raven Max Factory with press-fit bearings since the end of 2015. The series came with one from SRAM, which lasted about a year. Then I installed another one, which lasted a few months. Then one with interlocking aluminum shells, which also only lasted half a year. Then I discovered Token Ninja bearings made of aluminum with excellent standard bearings with a screw connection in the middle of the aluminum sleeves. Everything carefully installed with lots of Klüber Starburags PM 30 industrial bearing grease. Combined with a Cane Creek preloader on my SRAM crank. It has been quiet and smooth for three years. The bottom bracket costs €99. Top value for money.

Where have you been Hiding Raoul? It's a while since you enlightened us with your knowledge and creative critiscims!!! Glad to see you're well and back in front of the camera!!!!

Great to see you again! It would be great to see a video about the different grades of carbon used in frame manufacturing - T800, T1100, etc. What real-world difference does it make in the frame performance? Is the higher modulus carbon too brittle to be used for the entire frame construction? Does graphite and “nanotube” have any real benefits? Etc… Thanks

Hey buddy. Great to hear from you. I was afraid you had gotten tiered of us. Sorry to hear about your troubles. Have had a number of them myself. The world has gone nuts. Anyway i subscribed and am ready for more.

Nice to see you on screen again Raul. Hope the new workshop is up and running quickly. Threaded carbon just doesn't make any sense either. The whole idea of how a thread works is to tighten one against the other or make the threaded "shaft" part come flush against the face of the frame. Either way I don't see how carbon threads can be strong enough to enable "x" amount of Newtons in torque to be applied without something breaking. Very interesting stuff and would like to see work in the real world. If you've gone to the extent of making the threaded ring, why not make the bottom bracket a more solid piece then machine threads into that solid/thicker section of carbon and then alignment will not be a problem.

Nice to have you back. Perhaps you should prove your prediction by assessing the object when in hand. All the best.

Are you sure the threads are using a traditional layup with continuous fibers? Your thread diagram makes me think this is almost definitely done with compression molding and very short chopped strand carbon. I have no insider info here but that's how I would do it. Also, great point about why they did this instead of a press-fit. I think you're spot on that they just know the market hates press fit right now so even though this may not be the overall best solution, it might be the best engineering solution that the market will accept (I know I had never heard of this brand before this threaded carbon concept so the marketing is working).

I had been thinking about you since i hadn't seen any content. I'm glad you are doing ok.

my thought behind it is that, yes a threaded interface has less precise tolerance requirements and therefore a the shell of a threaded BB can perfectly align the bearings relative to each other while the frame only has to align the threads roughly to the rest of the frame. but i dont see this risk of having the frame threads carbon being worth it, while they might not be stressed very much and likely have very short chopped strand fibers that could more randomly orient themselves, for longevity sake i would not feel comfortable with the ceracote protecting the bb getting galv corrosion and being impossible to remove. Overall i dont think its too much of an ask for manufacturers to get some bearing seats nice and accurate? plenty of ways to implement better quality control.

Great to see you back Raoul the voice of common sense. Solutions marketed that are not in fact solutions……..again. Simple answer as you point out at 3.10. Good luck with the workshop reconfiguration 👍

Ahhh... it's good to finally see your face and hear your voice. I must say that you are dead on target when you say: why don't they just engineer a press-fit solution. It should also be possible to do by applying the mandrel method IMO. Anyways good to see content again and best of luck with your new workshop. 👍

Yes, glad to see you back. I would hate to be the bike wrencher having to change out the BB. Perhaps it's designed for a one time install and forget. Good only for 2K miles. After the first BB is toast, call Hambini. He'll ream out the threads and insert a press fit.

So great to see you back Raul and thanks for covering this. It didn't make sense to me either when I read about it but it's good to hear your expert opinion. Speaking of which, I would really love to hear your thoughts on Cannondale's new SuperSix EVO Delta Steerer. Is it good design or scary? Thanks and hope you get your shop in order soon. Sorry you're still dealing with that.

Good to see you post. I think I speak for many if I say that there's appetite in the community for videos like these - an honest opinion on a technology. No need to have the workshop ready for that. As for the topic itself - the BS on the website says it all, doesn't it? 1. 'Lighter frame', yeah lighter to traditional threaded but same weight as a press-fit. 2. 'Reducing complexity' - again, compared to classic threaded. Compared to press-fit you're increasing complexity and potential failure modes. 3. 'No alignment issues' - you're really just admitting that you can't manufacture press-fit properly.

Nice to see you back. Personally I love PF. But regarding the strength of the structure wouldn't the mating thread from the threaded BB provide the strength to this BB portion of the frame? After tightening the loads through this area wod be perpendicular wouldn't they? Cross threading may be more of an issue as the structure would be destroyed and could not be recovered?

Always enjoy your videos Luescher. I fear we are putting the cart before the horse.... The real question is, has anyone actually ridden this bicycle yet? Walking around Sea Otter with a carbon mold is an interesting way to sell a bicycle.

Was wondering about fiber orientation too. I see two options here: pressing a braided hose over a threaded mandrell or filling the mold with short fibers "forged carbon" style. That insert looks like said hose And why bother? Agree that it is a PR thing. If you make a round concentric pressfit, nobody would believe you. Especially when you come from Canada

I agree: pure marketing. I don't necessarily agree that press fit is inherently better, and I've never had any issues with threaded metal BBs, so I'll stick with what I know works.

I think it is an exercise in showing ones ability to produce something complex, when nobody otherwise would know if the simple solution is functional.

3:33 this is gold ... and a very good question

i know i shouldnt say this but this is an other video which i know i will/should click "like" and share before i watch it because this video make sense🤣

He's back!

Thread an aluminium BB into that, moisture wicks up the threads and bingo corrosion. Good luck getting it out again.

It will be interesting to follow this story. Can that frame even be faced with tools shops have?

The best application with the lightest weight is direct fit bb. I've worked with Don G when he developed the process for the R5ca and the most difficult process was to determine the shrinkage. 11 years later with 150,000 km on the frame still works perfectly. Real engineering by real engineers made this work.

Great video and on point. I don’t understand why the bicycle industry tried to reinvent engineering and cocks it up no matter what it does

I had Easton CX Fork once with internal threading, it was molded resin not CF. It worked very well over most expanding inserts.

Its beeen sooo long between videos, that I'd have to watch this video twice! 🤣

As a former track sprinter, I've never had a press fit last 18 months on my road or mountain bike. I would seek out frames that were NOT press fit. That is until I discovered screw together PF like the Wheels Manufacturing. I'm sure there are other great brands as well, but that has been my solution when I like a bike, but always hated PF.

If you can make round holes, holding the bearings without the cup is an option. We have been there too, whereas not in carbon yet?

Merci!

Mister Luescher I was working in a bike shop like mechanich, one day come a customer beacuse his BB make sound, I toke his bike and the next day I use the bike and that´s right the BB make sound, I call to the brand of the frame and the solution that they gove me was LOCTITE 686 if my mind is correct, I thought to my self; "WHAT? are you giving to me LOCTITE a glue to put un a BB ", at that moment told to the client that it was better make a service in the brand of the bike... For that I willl never buy a pressfit bb to myself or say to anybody that buy something like that. Best regards.

The ideal fiber layout in a threaded interface is perpendicular but not symmetric. Remember when threading something in only one side of the triangle will be loaded.

I'm no engineer but aren't threaded holes harder to make than smooth round holes?

Hey Raoul! I'm wondering to what degree you think the layup problem could be avoided if they moved to a coarser thread? This obviously requires custom BBs but potentially that would be a welcome tradeoff for the kind of high end/niche customer they're after. Cheers, Andrew

If the thread is made out of carbon, that will not last long. This happened on paintball community before and threads started to fall apart over time. Carbon fiber is too weak for this type of application.

It's great for business. Essentially you can only put a BB in the frame once...then you will need a new frame.

Interesting drawing of the fibre direction. In the left diagram that you proposed is better, the fibre would kink significantly as it turns to join the bore. Seems like that would compromise all the strength. Did you think about that?

3 of the 4 road bikes i had between 2010 and 2021 were pressfit creak masters, so i assumed it was a flawed system nook matter how many versions were introduced. I could have easily drank this latest cool aid, especially considering the alloy bike i had up to 2010 had the standard british screw in BB which was far more reliable, and quiet.

How do you chase threads and face a carbon bb at a bike shop? Do such tools exist? I'd love to see links and their costs. I'm sorta curious, yet I'll never buy such frames. I'd love to see and inspect one though. I might even machine thread gauges. It's simple enough for me. I've never seen such frame prep tools specifically for carbon frames. I haven't seen how threads in carbon are actually formed either. Haha, It's probably a secret! But I won't believe ANYONE until I see the manufacturing process proof of inspection, and data from test engineering. I have zero confidence in production carbon bikes. I've just seen far too many issues in many aspects besides only simple BBs. High quality on costly products NEEDS to be proven, it's never assumed. Especially on overpriced, overly complex products. We certainly have frame prep tools for metal frames. Most decent shops have those. To use them on carbon frames would wreck them very quickly. You need diamond cutters to machine carbon if you want the tool to cut accurately, consistently and last awhile. I'm not sure anyone makes diamond frame taps. Which leaves single point CNC thread milling. Seven does just this on their Ti frames I believe. Everyone I know who can afford a Seven bike thinks its an excellent value. I don't think many folks realize just how expensive high quality machining really is. Nor how fast carbon dust will wear out a high precision machine. It's quite ironic that most plastic frames can't be (or never will be) threaded, faced, reamed or especially aligned! Many young mechanics have little idea what those tools hanging on the wall are used for, nor why that's important. Not to mention, how precise bearings work, how BB threads and facing effect certain BB's, nor the requirements to install a precision bearing assembly. I trust precision machining, not molding. You can certainly do this with hand tools like frame taps, facing tools and reamers. Nor do I trust the production bike industry's supposed 'QC' or 'engineering'. QC is often merely a sticker applied. I can prove this any day at work! Anybody can apply a freakin sticker! Why the sticker deserves to be there should be another subject, Also known as QC! Teachers give stickers to preschoolers! I didn't need to teach my children to apply stickers! You could even train a freakin monkey to do it! Let's not even mention the strength aspects of plastic threads! I work in a high end bike shop, just for fun. I'm a retired machinist and mechanical inspector. Ive helped build carbon aerospace components. Also worked in a test engineering lab at NASA. I built their test hardware. I realize the importance of bearing and thread alignment. (Not so) common sense in my POV. I've never had a single problem with threaded metal BB shells in over 50 years. I don't see the advantage to saving maybe 50 grams opposed to a properly bonded aluminum sleeve. Good bonding is possible with proper manufacturing. In carbon aerospace designs, metal bungs for threads and bearings are regularly implemented. Ironically, human life also often relies upon these products! Just like pressfit shit, the results come down to manufacturing process and quality control! Yet none of that matters to materialist, marketing BS impressed consumers. I see hundreds of Santa Cruz carbon bikes pass thru my stand every year, We're a dealer. Santa Cruz use bonded in sleeves and probably see far more abusive and high torque environments off-road. Ive never seen one Santa Cruz with BB issues. zip, zero, nada except for typical wear, water intrusion and user ignorance issues. I've been riding and wrenching on Santa Cruz bikes since the company existed. I owned their very first aluminum bike. Santa Cruz is the only production, Asian made carbon bike I would ever consider buying. I will ignore any bike without a threaded BB. In less than 15 minutes I could service or replace my Shimano outboard BBs blind folded. Really! They are ultra simple. I have a decades old Raleigh commuter with a cottered loose ball BB, pretty smooth after 46 years of mainly rain rides. But generally I buy custom metal frames from friends I ride with. Guys I know and trust. I can shake their hands and look them in the eye. They truly love their jobs. I get EXACTLY what I want, suited exactly to my purposes.

I like threaded BB just because of the fact that I can work on it in my garage, without buying expensive tools and being afraid to misalign while servicing it.

He's back

I'm glad you made a video on this I wanted to hear your thoughts on this.😊

Long time no see, hope you've been well.

There are some BB's where you can tighten the BB internally, not using the external flange on the outside of the bike. Not sure if any exist for T47 though.

Yeah your point is spot on. The problem with press-fit bottom brackets is poor manufacturing and if they can manufacture carbon fiber threads that work for a threaded bottom bracket then they can make the best press-fit bottom bracket anyone has ever experienced.

They write its ceracote covered, maybe the majority of the threads is actually cut in the ceracote layer, not carbon?

Wonder how they are dealing with the ol galvanic corrosion issue when it gets threaded with an aluminum part.

Pressfit is the way to go. Got pressfit on my 2015 Canyon. 87k km done and still riding the original BB with no problems at all. Anytime I have an issue with a BB it's on a threaded bike.

That s why I want an "older carbon frame"

Yes! It is sad people just assume press fit is terrible when it’s really just people accepting bad QC. I’ve never had an issue on my 7 year old parlee with a press fit

I wish them the best but no way I'd buy that frame with that BB setup.

Let’s face it CF frames are a hit and miss game. It all depends on manufacturer QC. Even the top frames have imperfect pressfit BB’s. For your average rider, aluminium frame set would be better.

Santa cruz has been doing this on their MTB bikes for years without bigger problems. edit: ok I misunderstood. I never thought they would ditch the shell. wtf is going on...(???) Seems like such a bad idea.

My initial thought is that the threaded shell would be some other material, amorous carbon fiber using finely chopped fiber, or just pure high strength epoxy of some kind, etc. I also agree that press fit should have become a standard because of the obvious advantages and inherently superior design, more typical of the standards in other more demanding industries and applications.

You have pretty much covered every concern I've had wirh this idea. Corrosion, and why bother with threads

I'll still to alloy threaded BB68 at this point. Threaded composites aren't new but they not meant for refits if parts generally speaking.

Just jumping on the next trend imo. People love that kind of stuff. My bb86 pressfit has been problem free for over 30,000km's. Not one creak. Can only presume the manufacturer of my frame did a good job of getting the BB holes nice and round and in alignment.

I think the whole idea was that T47 was for metal bikes, hence the involvement of Chris King.

I'd be worried about the BB unit threading welding itself to the carbon threads, with, as you say, the tiny tool engagement offered by most manufacturers. At least with an aluminium shell insert, if it becomes galvanically attached to the BB unit, you can destructively remove the BB without harming the frame (too much).

I wonder if this will take off.

The damage is done with press fit now, the average consumer does not have confidence in it regardless of whether it's better or not.

Can it even qualify for the idiom "a solution in search of a problem" if it doesn't offer any solution?

I say galvanic corrosion will be a big issue

It’s amazing to me that the bike industry still can find a bottom bracket standard that works. This isn’t exactly rocket science.

Well, now I just have to see somebody torque one of these until the threads rip out, using a torque wrench so we can put a number on it.

Amagine the framset and wheelset you ,Hambini ,and Peak T could create if you guys had the time and recorces!😎👍

A failure waiting to happen. Great to hear your perspective

You gem 💎

so they failed to mass produce frames with round parallel surfaces for press fit BBs and decided to go with this...

If reliable press fit is too difficult to achieve, why wouldn't i want something they can achieve?

who make it dont know about press fit format? D

Im not sure threaded BB based on a pair of mold inserts can be more superior than a bored hole

Think you hit the nail on th head. I thought they went to threaded so they could machine up inserts to fix alignment issues and non round holes. Now they are bonding threaded carbon inserts in....makes no sense to me 😂. So, the alignment on those ones is going to be vastly superior? 🤦🏻‍♂️. Just do pressfit ffs. There's nothing wrong if done right.

no solution for no problem yet genius: For the budget they saved for otherwise attracting similar attention and brand recognition they can offer very generous guarantees of full frame replacement If you want to make a bike brand known - talk something weird about BB.

TIME frames have such precise bottom bracket shell, that some BB manufaturers are unable to match it : ) The rest of the brands are rubbish.