Throwing a Pilum - How far can a Pro throw?

Рет қаралды 836,295

Жыл бұрын

The Roman pilum is the javelin that everyone associated with Legionaries and with good reason, it was used for hundreds of years......countless battles and skirmishes. But how far can it be thrown and what does it do when it gets there?
We need to find out, so borrowed some pilum, built a throwing machine and recruited an experienced thrower to set the distance.
I contacted Oxford University Athletics Club and recruited a Team GB javelin thrower, Michael Allison to throw and establish a reference distance; and boy can he throw! Thanks very much to the club for allowing me to film there.
Michael's Insta page is here m.f.s.allis...
Oxford University Athletics Club Insta page can be found here oxforduniat...
If you are interested in custom medieval reproduction weaponry then visit todsworkshop.com
If you are interested in properly made medieval knives, daggers and maces this site will interest you todcutler.com
Merch can be found here todsworkshop.creator-spring.com
Many thanks to Adam whom I borrowed the Pilum from - much appreciated.

Пікірлер: 2 200

@tods_workshop Жыл бұрын

Hi All, and thanks so much for a generous response - very kind. Having gone through some of the comments let's talk.... 1. Armour, no he should not of been wearing it and yes I should absolutely have highlighted that this would effect distance and that is my mistake. The reason he should not be wearing it is that wearing an (almost inevitably) badly fitting set of something and the lack of familiarity and chance of injury means that I would be crazy to ask him to and he would be crazy to say 'yes'. But this is a hole in this test for sure. I hope he will be back and then he may be willing to wear mail as that would be the gentlest type, but for those thinking segmentata- no way. I could however find an experienced reenactor and if he can throw XXm in armour and XXm out, then these figures could be extrapolated to Michael's throws. 2. Distance. Michael threw long and can certainly get longer, these were genuinely his first few throws and so you have to assume there is plenty of room for improvement, which may partially offset his lack of wearing armour. So Michael threw mid 20's m and then 28m on his first two, then went up to mid - 30's, and then with a running throw, his first two were in the low 40's. Was this typical? Who knows?, but it does prove that it can be done. Was it done at these distances? everything happens in war, so sometimes yes, was it the norm? If you thrown vigorously and relatively unskilled (me) then it does start to tumble out at about 15m, so maybe for the panicked and pressed this was more realistic. 3. Trajectory and speed. Let's set some targets up and find out. the machine was set to throw at 36 degrees, which is about what Michael was throwing at and the distance was about the same, so the speeds will be about the same. Is there a speed difference and so energy/momentum difference at 15m compared to 30m? My feeling is little, but if there is ever a motto for this channel it is "let's find out". 4. Patreon. I have an idea.....I don't currently have Patreon, and these films are all self funded and so I was thinking of making a simple offering. I make a film like this one for instance, then the Patreon offer would be a follow up film with me talking through some of the comments and ideas that have come up (for instance the evident spin on the throws - unexpected) and effectively respond to my own films and of course the odd Tods Workshop and Tod Cutler dagger draw. Not asking for commitment, but would this be of interest?

@history-online Жыл бұрын

I loved this experiment, but I would be interested to know roughly how much time Michael spends on training. A legionnaire may not have had that much time to practice throwing a pilum. We also have to keep in mind that Michael has built his body to throw spears, while a legionnaire probably would not have been able to do that to such a degree. Patreon sounds like a good idea to me. :)

@dominov Жыл бұрын

I see that you probably noticed my or a similar comment to what I wrote. I definitely understand that his health is the most important thing here and he has to decide on what will be done. But maybe giving him a simple ww2 style soldier vest with a few weights might have a similar effect and should be less dangerous (I think and hope). Either way a great video and great job by both of you.

@Kurokuma10 Жыл бұрын

Absolutely 100% would be interested contributing to a Patreon page. The scientific approach you take on historical exploration is fascinating and significant, and I would love to be able to support that work.

@markfergerson2145 Жыл бұрын

Last things first: I am on a limited fixed income and can't be a patron but sure, go right ahead. Many KZfaqrs do so with good results. Some actually make their living on it. ... Medieval armies were typically divided into csvalry, archers, pikemen etc. Did the Romans have dedicated pilum throwers? If not, your personal best may actually be more representative of what a generalized Roman soldier could do while encumbered by armor and either standing still or advancing at walking (marching) pace, definitely not running ahead of the rest of the formation if the enemy was only 15m to 30m away.

@lady_draguliana784 Жыл бұрын

You could also use your Patreon supporters to bounce ideas off of BEFORE releasing (or even before you begin filming) a video! Other Makers here on YT make good use if this (and you are, technically, a maker by YT standards) and you could potentially iron out kinks in whatever you're working on before they become a major headache for you later on!

@han5henman Жыл бұрын

Todd, you are too hard on yourself! That was a fantastic watch! And chappeau to Michael for helping out.

@gcl2783 Жыл бұрын

I concur. Less apologizing for making content; more pilum-ing on the content.

@_kodokami Жыл бұрын

I cannot agree more :) Todd did a beautiful job with this video and like always brought us closer to understand, in this case ancient, historical weaponry and how probably it was used :) GREAT JOB TODD!

@larsbundgaard5462 Жыл бұрын

Yeah, what is the channel without Todd? It's what's all about.

@anawipazukawaste5378 Жыл бұрын

Don’t worry Todd, you are like our Time Machine to the past! Thank you

@PDeRop Жыл бұрын

I think it's what smart people do. Second guess themselves. Learn from mistakes. It's why you need to hear the goof-ups of The Beatles. Loved the video.. learned more about persevering.

@lindybeige Жыл бұрын

My understanding was that the volley of light pila happened at about thirty yards, and that of heavy pila at six yards, just before contact, and this seems to confirm that.

@rugratrik Жыл бұрын

It just seems so close. Wouldn't 6 yards make the risk for still being unbalanced/out of bracing position, and thereby more vulnerable to the impact? Recovering, repositioning, drawing your weapon and bracing/charging in would take about 3 seconds, so throwing any lower than 10 yards seems to me to be more hazardous then helpful (to the line as a whole).

@haakonhaugan7340 Жыл бұрын

I'd assume the big shields helps a lot with keeping your defence ready as you throw, possibly you'd even parry with the shield before drawing your sword... At least, that is my thought, with no real research, practice, testing, or anything like that behind it.

@khankrum1 Жыл бұрын

@@rugratrik You are missing the point of the Pilum. It is a pre contact weapon not a javelin! The aim is to create maximum disruption to your ,opponent's. I say opponent's, just prior to closing with the gladius! Mechanics of disruption!

@BouncingTribbles Жыл бұрын

@@rugratrik part of the reason the pilum has two feet of metal is to stick into or through shields and then not be able to be broken off. The resulting weight would drag the shield down and potentially make them trip or discard the shield entirely. 24 feet is plenty of space for a bunch of soldiers to throw their spear and then brace their shield wall. They wouldn't be moving or adjusting position at this point, they've already decided where they will stand to take the charge Not to mention that the first couple ranks don't need to be throwing, javelins are volley weapons. If the first two ranks are braced with spears and shields the back ranks can almost do whatever they want. Short range is just over the heads of the front ranks, but the image of the front ranks forming columns and the back ranks doing running throws between the columns is badass. Just continuous volleys as half of each rank runs forward to throw, then jogs back into position.

@floppiwaffle4200 Жыл бұрын

A wild Lindybeige has appeared!!

@firelock9080 Жыл бұрын

Michael's accuracy with the 2,200 year old throwing weapon is simply amazing.

@samuelfaiman1387 Жыл бұрын

The simple fact that he came so close (within a foot!) to the go-pro in two shots with a weapon of completely unfamiliar weight says it all. So does Tod's "I love working with professionals!" line XD

@NibNa5ty Жыл бұрын

Its a stick. People have been throwing sticks since there were people

@lovelessissimo Жыл бұрын

@@NibNa5ty post a video of yourself doing it, since it's so easy.

@nelocarbon3284 Жыл бұрын

@@NibNa5ty I had to throw javelin at university because I study sports. You can't imagine how insanely difficult that is

@elingrome5853 Жыл бұрын

Exactly! quite scary a few dozen young lads flinging these things in the ranks

@CJLiveFromTheOutdoors Жыл бұрын

Don't be too hard on yourself. Your explanation welded it all together! As a Roman history nerd, I appreciate the lengths you go to in replicating history and bringing us along. Thank you!!!

@tods_workshop Жыл бұрын

Thanks and a pleasure

@xgtwb6473 Жыл бұрын

Was funny him owning up to it too lol.

@MacDorsai Жыл бұрын

I'd love to see an interview with Michael on his feelings about throwing a pilum. He throws javelin as a sport, but in essence, this is the real thing. He's getting a feeling of what it would be like to throw a real javelin, something made for war, not sport. And if I heard it properly, you're bringing him back to be kitted out with mail and a shield, which could certainly affect how far he could throw, or possibly that was a shield and mail on a mannequin. Do both!. Get him hooked and you might have an addition to your crew of experts who work at really confirming history or busting myths. I know that I'd be looking for every opportunity to be involved if I were him.

@robo5013 Жыл бұрын

Yes, for full context he needs to be wearing armor and carrying a shield as well. And a helmet. Of course it will affect his throws unless he's allowed to practice for a while in it to get used to it. Also would like to see if there is any difference in wearing Republican mail vs Imperial Segmentata.

@wilhelmu Жыл бұрын

@@robo5013 both hamata and segmentata were used in empire

@robo5013 Жыл бұрын

@@wilhelmu Yes, I'm well aware of that. But the type of equipment changed from the Republic into the Empire.

@thevillageblacksmith8550 Жыл бұрын

So many interesting theories and suggestions I hope to get to see them all tested

@tl8211 Жыл бұрын

One point is that there were multiple types of javelins around. I think a lot of them were more similar to his modern sport javelin. Either way, I think it's clear that even with low technology, even relatively heavy javelins could be a quite long-ranged weapon in trained hands.

@Schizopantheist Жыл бұрын

Michael's getting 40+ and talking about pressing the range out to 50m or above. That's very impressive and certainly not what I expected! Excellent practical research here!

@AlanLamb11 Жыл бұрын

I expected 50+ but only with a running throw, that he was nearly getting to 40 from a standstill was surprising.

@paristeta5483 Жыл бұрын

For a moment i read, he´s getting 40+ years of age (so is forty and above) and was wondering why spear throwing keep someone so young. Hope you are entertained too.

@puddingpoppalpatine-6070 Жыл бұрын

Certainly was a fantastic surprise!

@donjones4719 Жыл бұрын

I love that Tod got an expert at throwing a weapon like this, it gives a much better idea of the weapon's capabilities than winging it by himself or a convenient buddy. I'd like to know Michael's personal best with a javelin to compare to his 50m pilum potential. Different weights, different design, but I'm curious.

@ZoonCrypticon Жыл бұрын

@@paristeta5483 Yeah, I thought the same, but Michael Allison is born 2004 and now (2023) 19 years of age.

@rogerdale5451 Жыл бұрын

I've never seen a javelin thrower up close. The stance, eyes on target, up on the toes, a magnificent physical muscular form, the whoosh sound. It's a bit of a thrill. Thank you.

@gammon1183 Жыл бұрын

Agreed, incredible to watch 😎

@handroids1981 Жыл бұрын

The ballet of power.

@waynemongo Жыл бұрын

Should of had top off!

@kennethalbert4653 Жыл бұрын

@waynemongo2882 you've gone too far !

@waynemongo Жыл бұрын

@@kennethalbert4653 to get the most accurate results it must be done nude then in mail and a tin hat.

@jarrakul Жыл бұрын

Very impressive to see Michael pick up a pilum for the first time and take about one throw to get the hang of it. That's a man who knows what he's doing.

@somerandomguy4240 Жыл бұрын

Honestly I'd recon that anyone who trains with a javelin could do the same. There's really not much to it when you get the hang of the throwing technique.

@Ms314159265358979323 Жыл бұрын

He looks like he knows his way around javelins 😉

@merocaine Жыл бұрын

It's throwing a stick man.

@bl4cksp1d3r Жыл бұрын

Every Legion would be proud to count Michael as one of theirs

@sagebauer1077 Жыл бұрын

Wow, seeing his throws with the pilum was awesome! Crazy accurate, I would not want to be across the battlefield from those!

@bosseronny2225 Ай бұрын

Honestly, much much more accurate than i expected

@silmviburlane6411 Жыл бұрын

I like: - genuine enthusiasm in the topic - humble manner of communicating with the guest and the viewer - having a clear, thought-out manner of speaking - not trying to be funny, use catchphrases, imitate some other channels The best part - humility, making the video/channel not about you personally (which as a result makes you more likable)

@pronz72gh85 Жыл бұрын

This is experimental archeology. It responds to questions that all ancient history enthusiasts, reenactors and wargamers have had for a long time and it is free! Thank you a lot Tod and Michael 🎉

@Paulsinke Жыл бұрын

Being transparent about the process is part of what I love about this channel, thanks for all your work Tod!

@tods_workshop Жыл бұрын

Thank you

@arthipex8512 Жыл бұрын

Apparently, a soldier of Caesar's 10th legion managed to kill Titus Labienus horse under him with his pilum when he rode up to and taunted them during a lull at the battle of Ruspina. I imagine Labienus would have kept a sizable distance between himself and the enemy force, and just remained in shouting distance. This would confirm the fact that individual legionaries were indeed capable of throwing their pila pretty accurately over long distances - even after hours of fighting.

@dogfaceponysoldier Жыл бұрын

Great point. I'd like to see him kitted up in lorica and a helmet. What he's describing at about 10:20 is muscle memory. Your average Legionary would have thrown these tens of thousands of times in training, developing the muscles, technique and muscle memory.

@anthonybanderas9930 Жыл бұрын

Your imagination is quite wrong. According to Goldsworthy the Roman commanders tended to stand quite close to the frontline

@wolfganghuhn7747 Жыл бұрын

But this was the 10th legion

@Ghelasin Жыл бұрын

@@anthonybanderas9930 Except he's talking about Titus riding up to and taunting *Hostile* troops, during a lull, he wasn't in his own battle line.

@anthonybanderas9930 Жыл бұрын

@Gelasin "Labenius was riding up and down in the front line bare-headed, CHEERING ON HIS OWN MEN AS HE DID, and OCCASIONALLY addressing Caesar's legionaries..." p. 158 in The Roman Army at War 100BC -AD 200, Adrian Keith Goldsworthy. Clearly the extract shows that his primary objective was to boost his mens morale, while diminishing oponets morale was secondary. In the rest of the chapter Goldsworthy argues (and gives sources) that loitering around (behind) the frontline was the primary modus operandi of those in high command

@GoDSkRiLLa69 Жыл бұрын

This is simply marvelous content. To watch a well trained and highly proficient sportsman applying his work to the real deal - working in tandem with a passionate and driven maker - is inexorably exciting. Well done! It seems he was having a great time too and that really rounded the whole thing out for me. Thanks for continuing to push in your own work, apply it in a very real way, and share it all with us. Please share our gratitude with Michael as well! I hope he hasn't had enough just yet; as I sure haven't seen enough from this duo!!!!

@matthewhudson5685 Жыл бұрын

Imagine if there were hundreds, or thousands, of young men like him, hurling a storm of pilum at you. That alone must have been enough to break the bodies and morale of many barbarians.

@cheyannei5983 Жыл бұрын

The power and grace Michael throws the pilum with is really awe-inspiring!

@KingTrouser Жыл бұрын

How do the Romans defeat enemy fruit? They pilum....

@EriktheRed2023 Жыл бұрын

And if you order two beers in ancient Rome, you get five.

@hansolowe19 Жыл бұрын

🙄

@MrNarvanno Жыл бұрын

Out

@SomewhereInSiberia Жыл бұрын

@@EriktheRed2023 no, you will be kicked out of the tavern, dirty german barbarian! Homines probi vinum bibunt

@SuperFunkmachine Жыл бұрын

The honesty is refreshing.

@jonathanrobison9667 Жыл бұрын

Michaels athleticism and dedication to his art is impressive, may he have an awesome career ahead of him. Tods dedication to digging into history and doing the research is amazing. Both of them keep history alive in different ways.

@thekameleon9785 Жыл бұрын

Here here!

@jaythewolf7216 Жыл бұрын

Michael Allison is pretty amazing. going out of his way and helping out. so cool, great person. hope they had fun hanging out want working with you.

@dougler500 Жыл бұрын

Wow! Awesome video. Loved seeing a real pro use one! The second throw I got chills from how perfectly that arced and landed. Nicely, nicely done Tod and Michael.

@littlekong7685 Жыл бұрын

Yes! SO much better I think than having amateurs and archaeologists use them for generating numbers.

@NobleKorhedron Жыл бұрын

Some of those archaeologists are members of things like the #SCA, @@littlekong7685. So I would trust those who are a little more than those who are just interested due to their work...

@littlekong7685 Жыл бұрын

@@NobleKorhedron And many are not, or were around before such societies were formed.

@thoughtful_criticiser Жыл бұрын

Welcome to the big kid club Michael, it happens to the best of us eventually. Achieving it at your youthful age means that you will become one of our KZfaq favourites after you bring home a Gold medal, if you want to! If not, you have really helped everyone understand what it took to throw a pilum. Thank you. Tod, far too hard on yourself, it worked out great.

@forlornfoe Жыл бұрын

Never worry about the mistakes made, they are unavoidable in experimenting and also provide insight of their own. This is absolutely golden content and Michael is a great addition to the experimentation. Good thing too that he did not seem to mind it at all, the grin on his face when you showed the spear-thrower...

@bjzaba Жыл бұрын

You’re a craftsman through and through - I empathise a bunch with the frustration it causes when things don’t live up to your expectations. In spite of the challenges this was a great video and it seems like you learned a lot. Those throws by Michael were incredible!

@tods_workshop Жыл бұрын

Thanks and yes I love the fact that I learn stuff, rather than just doing something I have done before

@creepyunicornwithlazers3594 Жыл бұрын

So the whole reason for him coming over there was so that you could show him the machine that will replace him. Nice. :P

@jfruser Жыл бұрын

Partway through the youtube video and I must say that there really is something about world-class athletes. The young man, when he throws, is a vision of grace in motion.

@TarmanTheChampion Жыл бұрын

One of my FAVORITE channels on KZfaq! So much accurate, historical knowledge and information in your videos! Always extremely entertaining, a true treat!

@docschro6847 Жыл бұрын

We can't always have Arrows vs Armour level of editing, but the quality of your information and excitement sharing what you've made and discovered is always great

@kylodon Жыл бұрын

The underlying story arc of Tod's hoodies slowly deteriorating has been just as entertaining to watch unfold as the actual videos! Love the content Todd and magnificent throws Michael!

@user-lf5vv8tn1d Жыл бұрын

This is the deeper story arc that unfolds across the episodes.

@jamesclouse9947 Жыл бұрын

I'm new here but what you just said is this guy's content is as entertaining as watching fabric deteriorate

@BiTurbo228 Жыл бұрын

Agreed! I judge the quality of a man by the degree of deterioration of their hoodies 😅 too pristine and you're spending too much time doing nothing! The exception to this is if you work with machine tools. Then tatty clothing loses limbs! 😳

@user-lf5vv8tn1d Жыл бұрын

@@BiTurbo228 Machine tools... brings a whole new dimension. Lathe accidents are not cool.

@goofygrandlouis6296 Жыл бұрын

My thought when watching his videos, is usually : WHY ? 😊 Who thinks of building an automated-pilum-thrower in his backyard ?? !

@nothing4mepls973 Жыл бұрын

A big thank you to both of you! Watching a pro at work is always amazing, thanks so much for showing us how it's done!

@WessexBladesHandMadeKnives Жыл бұрын

Michael's throws were very slick, my laughable efforts for Bath and Wansdyke was turning up late on my Honda scrambler, walking across the field and hoiking the 700 G (lime green if I remember) Javelin for either 44.7 or 47.4 Metres to win U19 still wearing my biker boots. To see him hurl a 1.3 kg Pilum with a sweet flight on his second throw was very impressive.

@tanchyon Жыл бұрын

Weird flex but ok

@Sypher474 Жыл бұрын

Very keen to see the upcoming tests. You did well editing this into a coherent narrative.

@MrMpakobec Жыл бұрын

I wonder if the crazy rotation that Michael can produce with his throwing technic will impact armor penetration capabilities. For better or for worse. Tods ballista can not replicate this and (even if i dont believe) it might impact realism of a test.

@BillySugger1965 Жыл бұрын

That was amazing! Todd, it’s almost as if you’ve never made a video about an athlete throwing a pilum before. Come on man, give yourself a break. You are making history with these things, and Michael was the consummate professional in working with you. Thoroughly looking forward to seeing what he, and your machine, can do to mail covered manikin.

@robertscheinost179 Жыл бұрын

I hope you gave the thrower a go-pro for all the hard work he did for your video. He earned it!

@Hellserch Жыл бұрын

Anyone following this channel is fascinated by how military weapons were possibly used in combat. The attention to detail and attempt to replicate ancient throwing techniques is excellent. Michael’s contribution cannot be denied: serious and playful. I deeply enjoyed this posting.

@hulkthedane7542 Жыл бұрын

Your enthusiasm alone makes these videos worth watching, Tod. It is SUPER interesting to see you gather specialists and get to know things. Keep it coming!

@vivianevans8323 Жыл бұрын

That was a wonderful 'Tod Original" - not just because you got a professional to throw but because you're collecting the parameters to set up further testing. What fun! Don't worry about the edits, we lapped up every minute of all this!

@AlyxGlide Жыл бұрын

Exciting! Lovely VOD, Tod!

@anysimmers8702 Жыл бұрын

"Pilum vs Armour" beautiful series🥰 Great episode Tod. Thanks to the athlete too, really helps our historical community🤗

@thormusique Жыл бұрын

Great video, Tod! I thought Michael's point about not really overthinking the throw was an interesting one. This is actually how I was taught to do archery - what some would call 'intuitive' archery, where it's not really about getting a technically precise sight picture, but rather a sort of full-body feeling of what's required to make the shot. Anyway, I loved this, cheers!

@tods_workshop Жыл бұрын

That was pretty much the point I was getting at - I too shoot instinctively

@maxjohnson1758 Жыл бұрын

I always have some skepticism for "intuitive" shooting or anything else. Any sort of real accuracy requires alignment of something.

@c567591 Жыл бұрын

The fact you admit your failures is one of your strengths in this arena. It makes it more authentic and you more relatable. I love these, keep em coming!

@Erikreaver Жыл бұрын

What a lovely video. And I love how you acknowledge your own mistakes and perhaps not thinking things true, puts an element of genuine...ness? Either way, fantastic to see an athlete have a go, and I greatly look forward to seeing more on this topic and others! Always a treat when I see a vid from you.

@93tiny08 Жыл бұрын

Michael Allison absolutely fantastic athlete, the ease at which he turns to this new medium is superb to see. Very impressive.

@leepalmer3634 Жыл бұрын

I love this and everything you touch Tod! Tim Wells from USA is a ex javelin thrower and currently travels the world doing bow and spear hunting. I've talked with him and he's a cool guy. You should reach out to him

@beepboop204 Жыл бұрын

🙃

@andrewsock1608 Жыл бұрын

He is busy travelling the world

@outandabout259 Жыл бұрын

I was wondering how he seems to throw so effortlessly, that explains a lot!

@andrewsock1608 Жыл бұрын

@@outandabout259 who is “he” ?

@MeanBeanComedy Жыл бұрын

@@andrewsock1608 Tim Wells...

@thespanishinquisition9595 Жыл бұрын

I just love the sound the pilum makes when it gets thrown by Michael. There is definetly quite some energy transfered to the weapon.

@MattyDove Жыл бұрын

When I heard the woosh, I was like...Damn.

@hekakain4108 Жыл бұрын

Tod I love history and your work is fascinating to me...cheers buddy, I much appreciate your channel and all the love and work you put into it. 😃

@alexg.8604 Жыл бұрын

I love how enthusiastic you are.

@haydenduvall162 Жыл бұрын

Solid gold content, as always, Tod. The fact that this was edited from multiple shoots just adds flavour :)

@cepewka13 Жыл бұрын

thank you Michael for participating and showing of how far athlete could throw a pilum

@DSlyde Жыл бұрын

Michael is a heck of an athlete. I really hope he enjoyed the experience because it enlightening for us, both in terms of the data collected and his subjective experience on throwing.

@horscategorie Жыл бұрын

This brings practical testing applied to theory. All of your tests have changed how we look at battles in history. That is a feat to be proud about!

@tituslaronius Жыл бұрын

I think the question we have to ask is not how can can legionary throw, but "how far can a legionary effectively throw in formation with all his kit?". We have to take in account that modern throwing is super different than throwing a pilum in full kit, with your shield in the other hand an all your buddies in tight formation around you. Great video, Tod ❤️

@tods_workshop Жыл бұрын

All very true and remiss of me to not mention the obvious range reduction from full kit

@chengkuoklee5734 Жыл бұрын

Something like Bannerlord? "Soldiers! Loose formation! Fire! Shield wall!"

@esoel Жыл бұрын

I agree. Given Michael's performance I think 20/30 m could be realistic for soldiers in formation. You also probably don't want your worst performers to waste their pilums because you gave the order before the enemy got in their range. I think their shields even more than the armor that someone else mentioned would really make the throw much harder. Still, this is not a criticism, just an observation, the video was extremely interesting and surprising.

@neutronalchemist3241 Жыл бұрын

Mind that Romans were disciplined soldiers used to formation tactics. It could very well be a "throwing formation" (where the Legionaries had 3m free space in front of them) followed by the "melee formation" when they were more packed. For the lateral space, even during combat Legionaries were probably at one arm distance.

@NigelTolley Жыл бұрын

I don't think the armour would make any difference to range. It was light and designed to not encumber.

@brennus01 Жыл бұрын

Well that was awesome. Thanks to Michael! Can you imagine if the legionaries could see what you're doing these days? I guess they would say, 'Thanks, Tod. You can go on along now. Michael, might we have a word?'

@crusader.survivor Жыл бұрын

Michael is really having fun! I know because I've recently began my personal training of spear throwing. Constantly improving the distance and accuracy is a true motivator in spear throwing. My 'spear' is actually a modified 5-foot ground spike from the hardware store.

@jorenbosmans8065 Жыл бұрын

This was awesome to see. I hope we get to see more of Michael throwing pilums and other weapons. I am surprised with how fast he could get these very nice throws.

@valandil7454 Жыл бұрын

40 meter throw, wow that's scary especially if he can still be so accurate, I aim to be in or within a foot of my target too so nice one that's mega 😄

@thechumpsbeendumped.7797 Жыл бұрын

I’m looking forward to seeing the tests on armour and shields. Remember that rubber loses some of its elasticity in cold weather.

@earthknight60 Жыл бұрын

I suspect there is also a bit of a difference in how the flight is affected by pushing from the rear (the mechanical thrower) vs throwing from near the center of mass (human thrower).

@mikeblair2594 Жыл бұрын

@@earthknight60 Damn, I didn't think about that. Good catch. It would be easy enough to rig the pili to to attach them at the center of mass.

@tods_workshop Жыл бұрын

If you watch the trajectory the hand thrown and machine thrown are pretty similar, so the target wont care

@Chiller01 Жыл бұрын

@@tods_workshop Agreed. I’m certain a physicist could explain it better but if the flight path and the distance are equivalent then the same amount of energy is imparted to the spear by the machine and the human.

@friendbubble8415 Жыл бұрын

Just wow. To both of u. Michael thanks for make this possible.

@michaeljay4816 Жыл бұрын

Thank you Mr. Tom. And thanks to the young athlete. Well done!

@bluegent7 Жыл бұрын

Epigenetics, adult role models, playing war from childhood, incredibly clever strategy, tactics and techniques, Roman discipline, the importance of conquest, the necessity of success for survival, make me inclined to think the legionaries were quite capable. So, having a modern pro trying it out may possibly give us a hint at how it might have been. This satisfied much of my curiosity around the pilum. Looking forward to more. My thanks, Tod!

@MattsGreatHall Жыл бұрын

Love these experiments!!!

@rockjockchick Жыл бұрын

This was legit awesome. Thank you for getting an expert and testing what was really possible! Far better than conjecture!

@aaronporterfield3456 Жыл бұрын

I love the fact that you humble yourself. The best trait a man can have is to when and admit his mistakes. I love your vids.

@tomtruesdale6901 Жыл бұрын

What a great video Tod, really looking forward to watching the testing videos following this one. Michael was a champ for working with you and now has a few really cool stories for his teammates.

@kleinjahr Жыл бұрын

Nicely done. It would be interesting to see how he does in full legionnaires kit.

@arturoroldan4839 Жыл бұрын

Thats a thing I would like to see. Having a big scutum while throwing this would be definitely uncomfortable. Also, in case they used segmentata, how annoying would be the shoulder guards of that type of armor be while throwing it.

@spockofdune8657 Жыл бұрын

FANTASTIC ! Nice to see your evolution and research ! Keep going !

@Geenimetsuri Жыл бұрын

Fantastic video despite your downplaying! Kudos to Michael too! Getting a pilum to fly past 40 is an incredible achievement....and the control & precision!

@kevinfogle7929 Жыл бұрын

Todd, your channel is a treasure. It is both educational and entertaining. Thank you.

@HereticalKitsune Жыл бұрын

I love Tod's videos so much, all the enthusiasm and joy of learning something new, even if mistakes happen. They teach just as much if not more.

@Thanaeon Жыл бұрын

Yeah, it's so charming. I consider him a delightfully nerdy guy, and mean that entirely as a genuine compliment.

@DanDavisHistory Жыл бұрын

Lovely work! Looking forward to what comes next.

@foolwise4703 Жыл бұрын

Dont apologize so much Tod! Awesome film, thank you!

@sinisterthoughts2896 Жыл бұрын

great video! I never even thought about getting a javelin thrower, let alone such a talented one! if he gets the time to come back it would be nice to see him toss one of the fletched javelins as well, I bet that would be amazing! great work as always Tod.

@anthonyhodgson825 Жыл бұрын

Defiantly an interesting video. Cannot wait to see further testing. Michael was brilliant and I look forward to seeing him skewer the barbarian horde.

@gerardmaroney3918 Жыл бұрын

Another excellent film. Thanks Tod.

@thatotherguy4245 Жыл бұрын

Amazing research and commitment... thanks for sharing

@DRida64 Жыл бұрын

The 15-18 meter estimate was probably a pretty decent estimate, when factoring in the nerves of the battlefield, the legionnaire armor reducing flexibility, and the reduced arm length of a relatively shorter person of those times. Not discounting the tests, as Michael clearly did a great job. You even got testing to prove that temperature affects a javelin throw. I'm just thinking about other factors. There's probably even more factors I cant think of that might decrease (or even increase) a throw distance.

@Sibula Жыл бұрын

That, and an athlete who is dedicated to javelin specifically could be expected to throw farther than a soldier who has to do all kinds of other things.

@DRida64 Жыл бұрын

@@Sibula good point! Specialization could be a factor.

@another3997 Жыл бұрын

@@Sibula Just like armed forces today, we know that certain troops specialised in a particular type of weapon. The Romans learned to integrate a large variety of weapons in to their armies, and certainly knew how to take best advantage of each. Like today, the standard infantry would probably train to use a couple of weapons adequately, but would not be ultra proficient. Their strength was in the large number of well coordinated troops using well rehearsed tactics. Specialists would probably adapt their armour to make their job easier.

@Sibula Жыл бұрын

@@another3997 As far as I know the pilum isn't really a usable main weapon, but everyone had a couple on them. This was almost like comparing an infantryman and a baseball pitcher to see how far you could throw a hand grenade.

@steemlenn8797 Жыл бұрын

My thoughts also. I think you should be able to throw one at 18m, one at close range and grab your sword just in time to stab those who weren't hit if you train that for a while. That's not to say that legionairies never threw farer, but that feels like the most effective use to counter an enemy attack wave.

@capnstewy55 Жыл бұрын

About 4 years ago Matt Easton did some good videos throwing pila at short range into shields. I believe that is how I started watching his channel and by extention this one.

@ZeckKoa Жыл бұрын

amazing research. Dont beat yourself up over the editing. It was perfect! I love the passion of the indepth investigation of the Pilum. Such a wierd weapon no other army in history cared to use but obviously worked.

@archaeologistify Жыл бұрын

This is one of the best educational and curiosity driven channels on YT

@littlekong7685 Жыл бұрын

I love that you got a professional, at the top of his game to do these tests with. With a bit of practise with the unfamiliar balance and weight, I am sure he can get some amazing numbers for distance and accuracy. So much better than relying on amateurs and archaeologists for numbers. I am always annoyed when they don't go to experienced professionals and call out numbers based on amateur performance. Like how many historian tested numbers for slings show them as slow firing, inaccurate, and very short ranged. But modern hobby sling users shoot them at 4-5x the rate, 5-10x the distance, and with many times better accuracy than the numbers say should be possible. And then they all rely on those numbers for their future research, not realizing how big a difference there can truly be.

@johnweatherman5685 Жыл бұрын

I can't wait to see the tests against armor and shields. Matching the spear thrower to Michael was genius!

@gam3rjae330 Жыл бұрын

I have no idea how I got here, but your enthusiasm and love for what you do made me stay.

@Dvinyard69 Жыл бұрын

Just the sheer amount of time it took to make this video is amazing, not to mention the educational information as well. Thank you.

@rat_datboi2185 Жыл бұрын

At 7:30 you hear that clear sound of the throw. Imagine a few hundred being thrown. :O

@andrewsmith9174 Жыл бұрын

Todd, love the experimentation. Here is an idea that I’ve not seen before: get a team of javelin throwers and have them make a group throw at static man-sized targets and moving targets (coming toward the throwers at a maneuver pace (we know that the Hollywood charging at the enemy wasn’t the norm, but paced maneuvering of groups was done). Seeing that would be incredible.

@matthayward7889 Жыл бұрын

This might actually be my favourite of all your videos so far. Brilliant!

@GaveMeGrace1 Жыл бұрын

Thank you both!

@mikestonewoodforge5992 Жыл бұрын

This is great practical research. I discarded the idea that the pilum was designed to bend on impact after throwing a pilum around my yard and through half inch plywood. I’m amazed at the distance you were able to demonstrate. Looking forward to seeing your shield and armor penetration tests.

@mgh7634 Жыл бұрын

I find it fascinating that even while bent, it's still usable and deadly. I suppose that makes sense, after all metal wasn't cheap and easy to replace, Roman soldiers were often marching far from home, and you probably would want a throwing weapon that could be used again and again if necessary rather than it be worthless after a single use, in case logistics trains are slow or cut off.

@euansmith3699 Жыл бұрын

5:28 The video cuts away from Michael explaining the finer points of spear throwing, to Tod on the set of the new Mad Max film; "Witness me!" These videos are always so much fun, and so inventive and informative. I like how Tod uses arrows stuck in the ground as markers 😄 The "whoosh" of Martin throwing the pilum is very impressive.

@onionman2117 Жыл бұрын

You just have to love the dedication to complete these experiments. Thank you

@LaneLibra Жыл бұрын

These videos make me so so happy

@theamericancristero7390 Жыл бұрын

I've always wondered how well the pila could counter missle infantry, especially since I've heard (but not seen evidence for) Roman heavy infantry carrying slings; If the Pilum couldn't counter archers and was only a preparation weapon for melee engagements (or inprovised Hasta against cavalry, as Caesar used against Pompey,) then the sling would be necessary for an organic ranged capability to the heavy infantry cohort. Furthermore it's notable that Syrian Archer Auxiliary units were valued in the Levant, considering how badly Crassus did against the Parthians with their heavy emphasis on horse archery.

@MrDwarfpitcher Жыл бұрын

Crassus did bad mostly due to having given the enemy the choice of where to fight though. Deep in enemy territory, desert climate in the middle of nowhere in which mobility is key. He also vastly underestimated his foe. If Crassus used proper tactics and strategy, then he would have been fine. But credit where credit is due The Parthians understood that they should crush the romans so badly that they could not properly learn from their mistake for a while. Suddenly, an army was just gone and it took years for them to get the information of what happened

@mnk9073 Жыл бұрын

Bows in those days, for the most part, packed a lot less of a punch than in the later centuries which means all those big shields did a pretty decent job against them. See Crassus' defeat for example, the horse archers were pelting his square FOR HOURS and most casualties came from exposed limbs and sheer time and volume of "fire". That's also the reason for the slings, contrary to modern beliefs, a stone or even more so a lead ball that deforms on impact from a sling is much more effective against a helmet than an arrow because so much more force is transferred. Add to that, that ammunition literally litters almost every battlefield, training is fast and cheap and slings provide a bigger reach than bows. Explains why only the most dedicated specialists went for the bow.

@mandowarrior123 Жыл бұрын

Slings and probably staff slings were common in the legionaries, i know of one fort in the UK sieged by i believe legionary slingers. Only heard a historian talk about it i don't know their evidence. Javelins are especially effective thrown at a cavalry charge too, as the extra relative speed is much more meaningful than arrows. 50% faster javelin equivalent is a lot of force. Bows and slings are still most effective at short range. By denying 30-50 metres you're reducing their effectiveness and freedom to skirmish massively. So even unthrown they do counter other missiles. Also, javelins were a common ranged weapon at the time. You're right its main purpose is alpha strike, to even the odds both before and during a melee. I suspect pila were held back at the rear ranks until the melee press as they would become unblockable and potentially penetrate several men/heads, particularly when they used a heavy and light version. Legionaries were expected to defeat stronger and more numerous enemies through tactics and training after all.

@steemlenn8797 Жыл бұрын

@@mandowarrior123 I think we should also not understimate the easines of use. It takes only a few days of training to be a reasonably good spear thrower, and a bit of rain doesn't make it useless, as could happen with bows and strings. Not to mention the other uses. A stick with a sharp end is a surprisingly useful thing to have in a battle and on the way to it.

@ottovonbismarck2443 Жыл бұрын

Pila against missile infantry would be useless, because said missile infantry wasn't tightly packed but in loose formation whereas a maniple or cohort was probably too tightly packed to allow everybody to lauch their pilum. That is before considering range disadvantage. IIRC, Caesars infantry countered Pompejus' cavalry with real spears, but legionaries definetly used pila as ad hoc spears at Alesia to hold the line. Actually the secondary use of a pilum as spear makes a lot of sense because only the first two rows in a clash could actually engage the enemy hand to hand. But the third row could use pila as spears to poke some eyes and noses.

@BobT36 Жыл бұрын

lol don't worry about the editing, Todd! Bit of perfectionism there. :D It's fine. Tbh though that actually worked out regarding the "cold" thrown, learned something there! The Romans would have absolutely been cold some days too. Also holy shit, the accuracy of those throws vs the Gopro. I'd have thought these would just be lobbed in the general area of the enemy, but you could totally target a specific dude here. Imagine 2 or 3 romans all lobbing these at you and them coming SO close lol.

@Kierkergaarder Жыл бұрын

Thank you Todd. Long time on-and-off watcher, just subscribed as I really enjoyed this

@risingforce9291 Жыл бұрын

Shoutout to Michael as well. Wishing him an amazing career in his chosen sport.

@shotgunwound Жыл бұрын

Put him in some Legionary armour, try and model the conditions

@beepboop204 Жыл бұрын

🙃

@poolpulse3447 Жыл бұрын

I believe that the tests in Winter Clothing simulate armour to a certain extent... Not exactly, but close..

@beepboop204 Жыл бұрын

@@poolpulse3447 a winnipeg winter? or a London winter? 🙃

@johnssmith4005 Жыл бұрын

@@poolpulse3447 Also the fact that he is still young and not a battle hardened Vet who is very familiar with the Pilum makes the results pretty close

@johneden2033 Жыл бұрын

Fantastic video! You're doing incredible work for the field of reconstructive archeology and HEMA. One thing I would like to point out, is that for any ranged weapon, there is a difference between its maximum and effective range. While a trained thrower might be able to launch a pilum to 50m giving all they got, the practical range of hitting moving or point targets would be shorter, especially within the confines of a tight formation. Because Legionnaires carried a scutum with their pila, I wonder if Michael would be willing to hold a scutum (or substitute) and throw the pila from a standing position. That might give us a more practical range and power for the weapon. Maybe within the context of its practical application, a range of 20m is more realistic given the situation the weapon would have been used in.

@steemlenn8797 Жыл бұрын

I aslo think that the 18m mentioned at the start are more likely the battlefield release distance. You want as many as possible to hit. At 50m the enemy has 3 seconds to react. They could just stop and all the pilums would land in front of their feet. I can imagine that if you are trained, you can do a throw at 20m, another at 10m and grab your sword and stab those who survived the rain. Who should also be now not come as a wall but a lot more spread up because some got hit or jumped backwards or had to throw away their shield.

@brolohalflemming7042 Жыл бұрын

@@steemlenn8797 I wonder if any of this could be extrapolated from any surviving training or tactical manuals. So how much time a legionnaire would be expected to spend training with pilums. Or I guess how they'd be expected to throw and expected engagement ranges. I guess given the discipline, it'd either be thrown from standing, or maybe 3-5 paces then throw, but that would seem like it'd make managing and dressing formations more challenging.

@MattyDove Жыл бұрын

@@brolohalflemming7042 In addition, I imagine that they men would of also held games amongst themselves on a regular basis to pass the time. Even if it was just some drunk betting on who could throw the furthest or most accurate.

@brolohalflemming7042 Жыл бұрын

@@MattyDove I think we need more science! My father was from Chester, and a historian so I was raised on tales of the Chesire archers. In which I learned that places like St Mary's Butts wasn't something to giggle about, but part of our ancient reserve training. So I guess it could be interesting to do something similar. Create a historically accurate training plan, call for age-appropriate volunteers and track progress. It might also be interesting to also have a group that follow a modern javelin training regime. I guess the results would be skewed by differences in diets and general population variations, eg ban the Dutch because on average, they tend to be taller than modern Italians. There may also be legal complications given spears are probably considered offensive weapons now across what once was the Roman Empire. (now I'm wondering if there were recorded differences between Rome's African and other legions given some African populations tended to be taller/longer limbed than Italians as well)

@darta1094 Жыл бұрын

"I love working with professionals". Indeed, great practical experiment and fantastically powerful and clean (every single movement is precise) Michael throws.