"You shouldn't have talked, now you got the whole chat laughing at you" One of my favorite lines from Aris ever

I would pay top dollar to see TMM &Aris as commentators in tournaments

They have a funny relationship, TMM doesn't "talk" to Aris but Aris increasees TMM viewer count because he's always telling people to watch for Tekken

Aris and TMM are the two people who most helped my Tekken game. Hail to both of them!

Aris is my favourite commenter by far, I'll watch him play anything he's fuckin hillarious. But I've learned more about the game from TMM.

I learned so much about Tekken from that Hagrid looking man right there.

If Tokido went to it that’s all you need to know. He’s known for going for any & every advantage in fighting games. He’s not dropping years of stick play for a Hitbox for no reason.

Aris and TMM are the real OGs of Tekken's Butthash Online Content.

This is 100% on the devs IMHO. 4 frame super (although the input requires preparation and is incredibly awkward) in street fighter is only possible due to input leniency. In older street fighters this is completely impossible since diagonals are required. For the tekken specific examples like sidestep that could be patched in either direction. The charge character thing is bullcrap tho, that doesn't work like that.

HitBox was the entire reason I actually got into fighting games. I could never get clean L/R on an arcade stick, & the d-pad & trigger buttons were problems on a pad. Aside from a recent ESD death to my SnackBox, I've loved SF6 constantly since release. It DID take like 4 months to get used to the leverless layout though.

Aris is funny as fuk he always keeps it real no matter what 😭

Keyboard players trying to stay low key right now.

I once asked Super Akouma "What's the most difficult technic to do on a hitbox?". He just replied "nothing!"

SOCD Cleaner exists to eliminate inputs that are impossible. You can't input opposite directions in a hitbox. The game registers neutral or up. There is only an advantage just for travel time and socd inputs having a way to push neutral at will. There are no illegal inputs

I wish TMM watched the whole video, some great points were still in there as well as the hilarious moments Aris usually brings

Aris is one the funniest dudes on the planet

I mean in the 90s and early 2000s pads were considered cheating too (especially by the "elite" arcade cabins players). You couldn't even use binds in some local tournaments and that's why some legacy Tekken players learned the claw grip on pad. Nowadays button binds on controllers are considered perfectly fine by pretty much everyone in the fgc. At the end of the day better player will always win regardless of the controller. Also, game developers are slowly dropping more complicated legacy motion inputs for the sake of being more accessible for casual players so one day this hitbox double input cheat argument will become irrelevant anyway.

You cannot forward dash while charging. It will register as neutral. This is referred to as SOCD cleaning. However you CAN charge pretty much immediately after pressing forward, as Aris mentions. I don’t see why the argument has become that Hitbox is cheating instead of how the other controllers are inferior and they could use some changes in order to keep up.

TMM and Aris are the absolute best. They've both been around for donkeys years (whatever the hell that saying means) and they both still state things with 0 bullcrap Also, Aris' streams are so f***ing funny but you've got to adapt to the chat to survive. It's actually very strict. No essaying, no asking stupid questions, no mocking Aris. Likely to be banned.

Technically a playstation controller can press 2 directions at the same time as well. Both SFV and T7 allow the usage of DPAD and Analog at the same time so you can still cancel directions without letting go of the first one.

FYI, you can totally use socd match practically on dualshock and dualsense. Place all the buttons on the triggers and bumpers, then you have both hands to use for the pad and left stick. I've played with it, it's definitely a step up on normal pad movement

“When you show up to a bodybuilding competition and everyone is natty…and then you show up with your hitbox…” I died

Anyone who grew up gaming in the 90's arcades was homies with an Aris at their local arcade. He is legit O.G.

Aris don't know what he's talking about. There is an SOCD cleaner in Hitbox and Mixbox. DIY leverless controllers using Brook boards also has multiple types of SOCD cleaners. You can't input opposite directions at the same time. Default on hitbox and mixbox is "back+forward=neutral, up+down=up".

Here we go again, grandpas discussing whether pressing buttons is cheating. Button-based controllers aren't cheating, sticks and pads are a handicap. Grandpas play on sticks due to legacy skill, console players play pads because that's the controller they have, and that's fine. PC players play keyboard because that's what they have, and that's also fine. Moving your body to generate one input per press will never be cheating. Games where buttons allow "illegal" tech (like blocking both sides or sidestep into foreground while crouching) are de-facto bugged and should be fixed. PS4/5 not allowing regular cheap USB keyboards should look towards Xbox and not force people to buy 300$ Hit/Mix boxes to get access to buttons.

Smacking big ol' buttons feels way more responsive than wiggling a joystick around.

You can't charge whilst walking forward, everything else in the video i pretty much agree with. I used to play on keyboard and play Urien so i've tested this.

I main Zafina and I play on keyboard... I realized over 20 years ago keyboard was best for fighting games and it took a LONG time to feel most comfortable on one. I KBD by holding back (constant), tapping forward, neutral, down, neutral, forward, neutral down... sometimes you gotta hit that first forward twice to get it going. I barely bother blocking. It's really THAT simple.

One guy said said it perfectly on Aris' channel, "I wonder if this is what Amish guys in the 1920s felt like when they watched cars go speeding by" lol, this sums up the entire thing so well, the fgc is evolving, there is no cohesive argument to ban hitbox when keyboards have been around since the dawn of time, it could also be argued that pad should be banned at that point, and everyone can play either one, I guess Devilster should have to use stick right lol? Nothing but gate keeping elitism that will hold the community back

Devilster is on keyboard too that's why he is so precise

I think going forward, FG's will be designed to circumvent these advantages because devs absolutely want games to be accessible.

Walking forward and blocking simultaneously is the antithesis of fighting games

If people are so salty about different controllers, why don't tournaments just standardize it so that everyone uses gamepad.

The players in the east have adopted and embraced this style of controller, meanwhile over the west we're bitching and moaning. And we wonder why we always fall behind in the FGC.

The whole left and right button presses at the same time is just plain wrong and is not possible with a Hitbox btw. This input gets cleaned by the SOCD cleaner and registers a neutral input. The controller merely follows the coding that is allowed in the game. If we're gonna address this problem, the game developers need to do something about it. People are blaming the wrong thing. It's the programming inside the game should take the blame, not the controllers. Pads can already do this type of things possible with an HB, so ban pad? EDIT: Btw im an Arcade Stick Lever user. I dont even own the hitbox, I just understand how SOCD works. Someone might accuse me of being a HB shill lol. Im not, im a Lever Lover. If you ask me, yes HB's gives you advantage because of faster inputs, but should it be banned? No. The controllers are just simply evolving. Lever controllers are ancient, it was a thing before I was even born (born in 96).

The whole argument comes down to "hitbox should be banned cuz it is faster". Inputing two opposite directions at once is only a problem for old games, new games ***NEVER*** allow you to input two opposite directions at the same time, when they code the game they think about this kind of stuff. Being faster is not a good argument since pad is faster than lever and by the same logic it should also be banned, also pad CAN input two directions just like hitbox but inputing one direction on pad and the opposite on analog stick, may not be easy but it's possible. Personally I think hitbox is better than lever, but trying to use logic to get it banned will never work cuz it doesn't break any rules it's just faster.

no you cannot forward dash while charging lol this is something that was possible in some older games with keyboard, pad (using analog+dpad), or very early batches of hitboxes that didn't have SOCD cleaners, which effectively cancel forward+back into a neutral input at a hardware level hitbox can be cheap and crossup can be even cheaper but i wish we could stick to like, actual realistic criticisms about the device instead of shit like thinking you can forward dash while charging or people losing their shit over some guy wavedashing with two hands or something

If you're running the 100m at the olyimpics wearing flip-flops instead of the best running shoes money can buy, it ain't the other athletes fault.

The only problem i can see with the argument is that if the idea is to ban Hitbox/Keyboard from tournaments because theyre unfair then why not just ban stick instead, other controllers are superior in every way, why make people play worse on outdated controllers instead of making the better ones the norm?

Brian_f also made a reply to this argument that Aris brought up, disagreeing with a couple of fair counter points about the HitBox and whatnot. Give it a go if you don't know him or if you want even more insight on the subject, it's pretty constructive.

When something comes out that completely invalidates something else, generally the smart thing to do is to adopt it as the new standard instead of screaming about it on twitter.

As a keyboard player who previously used pad and stick: yeah it's busted. I'm perfectly fine with games patching in nerfs to prevent the 2D charge abuse or other tech. 3s Aris was playing doesn't register hitting both at the same time as a neutral in Fightcade and that's great. I will continue using keyboard/mix/hitbox either way for the speed, precision, and significantly less stress on my hands/wrists, and if they ban me from tournaments I just won't attend.

I'm old and love my arcade sticks but I also got a Hori Fightpad. Depending on the game that thing is easy mode. But Hitboxes and modern Keyboards are on a whole other level.

Keyboard and Hitbox are undoubtedly better but he loses me when he says it's "cheating". Tekken 7 allows you to play on keyboard it's one of the main controller methods and it's designed that way. To choose to play on a stick means you are putting YOURSELF at a disadvantage, the other person isn't cheating by picking something better. Obviously if you wanna say Hitbox should be banned cause of concerns they are modding it thats a different argument all together.

7:30 Picked up Tekken 7 as my first Tekken game in over 20 years and was doing perfect electrics on Kazuya reliably in less than half an hour fooling around on my keyboard. It's extremely snappy. On pad doing electrics feels like a coin flip and KBD's and character control feels like you're waist deep in sludge. Pad also feels like you're going to break the thing and be out of $75 in a couple months from the wear and tear just moving around in Tekken requires.

I agree that people on Mixboxes or the similar digital controllers are definitely at an advantage. However, I think we have to bear in mind that developments in competitive environments always happen, and I don't think the right thing to do is to try to insulate the games from these developments. Badminton used to be played with wooden rackets, then steel and now aluminium and carbon fibre. Smashes have gotten faster and the entire meta around how to serve has changed as power is more readily available to the best players without it being as tiring or difficult. At no point should Badminton have 'banned' these 'obviously superior' rackets. People who want to remain competitive just got new rackets, got used to playing with them and began enjoying the advantages. The people who refused to could still compete, but they had to understand that they needed to be better by a larger margin to win. I learnt to serve underhand; and if I wanted to return to playing competitively I'd have to master the backhand serve. That's just the case now. I think the only issues are 1) the above example took place over some 40 years and the development and implementation of Mixboxes has been nigh instantaneous by comparison, and 2) the manufacturing of the equipment is monopolized by relatively few producers and that means people might be priced out of getting a Mixbox or equivalent. EDIT: An interesting parallel I thought of afterwards is that the Classic Tetris Competitive scene still requires the use of the original SNES controller and CRT monitors, so you can get competitive environments that prohibit technological progress. At the end of the day, it is down to the individual tournament/league organizers what they will or will not permit.

The fact the hitbox came out around the time I developed carpel tunnel was a godsend. If the hitbox gets banned I literally could not play fighting games anymore due to the pain I get playing on pad and stick that I don't seem to get playing box. Genuinely hope that doesn't happen would suck for people in the same situation as me. I enjoy doing locals sometimes and banning them would actively hurt my enjoyment so that's been my argument on the matter. I'm ok with banning socd cleaning but an all together ban I'm personally against.

On a controller you can use the pad to enter a direction and the analog stick to enter the opposite direction No macros needed.

You can input back,forward,back then hit the button for charge moves to maximize your charge with those moves. There’s a speed difference still, but you can still do the same thing he’s describing

Now we're saying stick is outdated? Damn we've come a long way. I remember the '09ers stroking the balltip of the arcade stick, saying it was by far superior to pad. The FGC I tell ya...

Man you did Aris so dirty with that old picture of him lol

For anyone who plays at competition level, earns money with it, and believes mixbox is an advantage, here's a crazy tip: just use it.

Okay I agree to most things, but I am geniuinly curious on what the opinion is on the argument, on how advancements on certain things should possibly even be the norm. Since arcade sticks were a default, you have travel time and a much more difficult situation than a gamepad. The game pad has way way less travel time and the general execution is faster. Its still fine to use nonetheless. Then the hitbox came out and is not a step above a gamepad but now the limit is overdone? Why is it wrong to make things easier or more exciting by making them faster. When horses raced and the transition to cars happened, people were saying its unfair how much faster it is. of course it is but that is just the way advancements work. We always strive to make things as optimized as possible. Maybe a bad comparison but I hope you get what I mean. I would like to see this argument to be deducted.

Hitbox isn't cheating. Nor is the Mixbox.

Old man logic. "Use the outdated crap I used or you're cheating."

Sticks are a tradition that comes from arcades, something that isn't popular anymore. Consoles and PC's are popular and being used constantly though, that's how the crushing majority of people play, and the necessity that made Hitbox come into reality, "PC players that are used to keyboard, and either want to go to tournaments hosted on consoles, or want to play with friends that play only on consoles" is also still very much present The reality is that stick owners are a dying breed. There's no reason to start playing fighting games in one except for nostalgia

Aris' mods are immediate with the shots. I truly love his insight when he's really telling how it is.

Devilster is a KBD player, his movement is on another level even compared to Pro Jin players

If u listen closely, u can hear the dinosaurs in the back.

Hitbox does socd cleaning, so you can't actually input opposite directions at once. In general, what is cheating and what is not is determined by what is normal. If the norm was to play with mittens on, anyone taking them off would be considered cheating, even if it's just the sensible thing to do. The hitbox is a better input device, but if someone playing on a microwave claimed that everyone else was cheating, they'd be laughed out of the room. This being said, games could handle the inputs a lot better, but you certainly can't forward dash mid charge in any reputable games. It's faster to transition between charging and dashing, but due to socd clearing, you get neutral(sometimes the one you pressed last) when pressing both sides at once. Also pads often don't do socd clearing, so you can use both an analog stick and the dpad to do funky stuff (pressing opposite sides in SFV gives you forward, which leads to pad exclusive mixups) - Hitbox apologist

I would just disagree with him where he said difficulty is completely subjective. Something being easier makes it more reliable and more viable.

If a Mishima mirror match gives an inherent advantage to P1 side, because you can't step left in certain situations only on P2 side, it is not Hitbox that breaks the game but Stick. Hitbox rather, is the controller, which equals the playing field.

At approximately 7:00 in the video, a perplexing argument arises questioning the legitimacy of hitbox-style controllers, contending that their use amounts to cheating by eliminating side advantages. However, this perspective lacks coherence when considering the essence of competition and improvement within the realm of fighting games. The transition to a hitbox-style controller is not a violation but rather a logical evolution, marked by enhanced precision and faster inputs-all within the framework of user-initiated actions. Comparing this adaptation to the use of steroids is a flawed analogy, as a hitbox is more akin to adjusting one's form in weightlifting for better results. Just as someone might choose sumo deadlifts over standard for increased efficiency, opting for a hitbox is about refining input methods for better performance. in simple terms. I use Hitbox , I think it is the best/ most advantageous controller there is, even making playing on joystick feel obsolete . THIS HOW EVER DOES NOT MEAN THAT IT IS CHEATING

"Look at the time! Look at the TIME! LOOK AT THE TIIIIIIIMMME!!!"

“You can press both left and right at the same time” Yeah, and they cancel each other out, making it pointless. This was a problem a decade ago that was fixed within weeks, why do people still pretend like it’s an issue?

In protection of keybords. There exist core moves fore some characters in some fighting games that require the player to input staff like ← ←+↓ ↓+→ → for example before pressing a button or a combination of buttons. On a joystick those kinds of inputs are waaaaay easier, because you can acompilsh them with a single move of a finger. Some fighting games, that are not tekken also require you to actually push a dedicated buttton for a block, making the ability to hold ← and → at the same time not that useful in comparison, if not useless at all.

I just have a question Why should it be banned if it's a better standard that gives new player better way to play ? Why should it be banned if it helps being perfect and developpers don't care about it ? How is that cheating to use something that has just a better ergonomy ? And why do we still have this debate since, cross on some pad controllers are straigt up the same thing ?

Yes you can do that on a controller and a stick, I do it all the time. There are 4 extra buttons on a stick to use if you play Tekken. I map down, left and right to three of them and thats is how I KBD. On a controller I map left and right to the back paddles. If your talking about SODC, that is banned in tournaments so the argument is stupid.

WHY IS MAINMAN STILL CRYING ABOUT THIS

Arcade sticks are like wooden bats in baseball, obviously there’s better options out there but we need to have a fair standard that everyone uses

Aries opinion is invalid because socd is a thing, and yes you can push 2 directions on a pad…analog stick plus dpad. You guys didnt do no research 😂

Completely disagree and no it's not science. The only part of it that could arguably be an immutable law like you two are suggesting is the part where there are milliseconds of disparity between pressing a button and holding back on an arcade stick, even then I think the difference between the advantage of the former over the latter is being vastly overstated - moving a joystick from forward to back happens in an instant. Barring that sticks have the advantage of consistency of hand motions (playing 2P side with a leverless controller is a much bigger ordeal especially with command characters) and the reliability of microswitches being felt and heard with each directional input. All control methods are viable and you said yourself that the world's best Kazuya plays on a stick, that's not a coincidence and it's not simply down to tradition otherwise all this epic science and objectively observable fact would have produced legions of superior players mopping the floor with that guy. I feel the efficacy of an arcade style controller with a lever is really being downplayed here and I don't care what Reddit or the barely sentient FGC has to say about microseconds of time saved or what's objectively better, most of these players have to remind themselves to breathe manually so I take what the consensus approved opinion is with some scepticism.

By your logic currently P2 is at disadvantage when using the stick. Hitbox and keyboards even those odds and make the matchup fair.

You can press Forwards & Backwards at the same time on any analogue PlayStation controller using Dpad & analogue. Based on that logic, you should ban all PlayStation controllers

these are facts, another fact is that leverless is the future no doubt... unless they redesign the games somehow... so lets all jump on hitboxes so that we at least compete on same devices, period

I get the argument, but I hate this argument because everyone has the ability to pick up the same controller. Even the comparison to using steroids doesn't make sense. If they allow steroids in a competition, and you participate without steroids... that's on you. The same thing with broken characters, there are characters that are wayyyy overturned sometimes, and you see them being used everywhere... so just use them too. Nobody is forcing to play a low tier character. The only excuse I can find is that some players are used to the controller they have always used, and they just don't want to change. But at the highest level of competition, you HAVE to adapt.

Well you bring up the Mishima point. I'd easily counter by saying that you shouldn't have an advantage by just having a player 1 or player 2 side so the hit box simply fixes that. So I'd actually say just having player1 side would be cheating because you gwt an inherent advantage from no effort of your own.

i am a hori hayabusa noir tekken edition. i have hayabusa lever but swapped it into sanwa parts. even still if my opponent is using a mixbox i dont mind. its just so happen that they are modern fighters and us are simply the classic one like in tekken if your character has unfair advantage just simply adapt or use that broken character and join the band wagon to even the playing field. what i mean we are in a modern age now that all methods of controler are being used whether its a steering wheel if thats where you are comfortable of using..

in this thread/video: people that want to ban a more comfortable and precise controller because it's not the one they grew up with. It's a wave of change, ride it or fall behind. Or keep winning on the controller you already used like nearly every tournament winner in every major fighting game ever since the hitbox became a thing. Also they don't seem to be aware that SOCD is standard in every controller and its really easy to check if you're that concerned about the competitive integrity of your event, just fucking press both buttons and see what happens.

FGC Boomers gotta stand united as time passes them by I guess.

The future is now old man

How is Hitbox cheating when everyone has access to it? Ur choosing your own disadvantage

IMO, the best way to fix this problem is that FG game developers should include how input register work in their game and add a rule that people cannot change how input works in that. For example, Let us say this game X is released with their own input register format like left + right = left. If you used a controller that changes that default input register, then it should be bannable. If the controller doesnt break that format then it should be okay.

When I see or hear Aris the first things that come to mind are: "Your comment is trash and dumb to smoke!" "Chicken on a stick!" "Harada played the violine in this game?!" And "unbreakable european grab" Cool dude

Being able to step inside (SSL on 2P after forced crouch) doesn't break the game, it fixes it. Your advantage doesn't depend on one rock paper scissors before the match. Also you can do two opposite direction on a gamepad, just use both the d-pad and the analog stick. SFV players do it for charge characters for years.

false you can input 2 directions at the same time with regular ps4 pad: using d pad and the stick at the same time, and yes players do that: famously knuckledu

Respectfully disagree. There are absolutely zero good reasons to ban hitbox / crossup etc and they are objectively not cheating.

is the thing about mixbox being able to step into the foreground while crouching even true? I'm pretty sure that's a game limitation not a controller one

Do people just forget SOCD input cleaning exists? Illegal inputs are literally impossible. These anti-hitbox arguments are actually archaic, it's becoming comical

Consistency is literally one of the pillars of competitive and hitbox changes the games we've been playing for years.

People are only upset because this time it's a controller THEY don't like to use.

I mean… sticks are just outdated lmao

you can use the D-Pad and the Stick at the same moment on Controller

Just play on hitbox/keyboard. Solved.

Ppl purposely put themselves in disadvantage by using sticks to play and then complain that there’s much better controllers to play games better and faster lol

Yup, totally agree. I play on stick because it's easier on my hands and I can play for hours without my fingers hurting (pad) or my hand going numb (keyboard) But when I was playing keyboard my execution with Kazuya in just a couple months was unreal. I main Law and I can't dss on keyboard or pad because I get the timing wrong by pressing b,f,f faster than I should because the directions can be pressed faster with these controllers.

Then learn how to use a hitbox dude. As a view of professionals, all I can say i that I want to see the highest level humanly possible playing the game. And if a hitbox allows you to do this better, then stop crying and learn hitbox. And your example about being able to step to the weak side of a Mishima in a mirror match from P2 side.... It doesn't sound like that hit box breaks the game to me. It sounds more like a game development oversite that the hitbox has solved. I don't want the P1 fuckin Mishima to have an advantage over P2 ESPECIALLY if I'm watching competetive Tekken.... I don't EVER want to see something so unfair...... Your example is literally the best argument FOR hitboxes!

As person who suffers from carpal tunnel it sucks trying to play my favorite fighting game with pain is ass. Sure is using a hit box cheating? I guess? Do I need to show my medical card in order to use a hit box? Try to feel that nerve pain it’s awful. Kinda sad that they don’t take consideration about someone’s else hands.

Literally old man yelling at clouds 😂😂😂

14:14 Aris mods are trigger happy snipers. You get shot before you get to even finish what you say and they leave a note in your corpse saying, "do not unban!".