Sherry Jacobs Terrific--glad I could help!

It's nearly midnight and I can't sleep with worry about the exact same thing. Bought this house like this and have tried to fix the toilet twice. Slowly leaking under the tile. Tomorrow I fix it like this!! Goodnight!! Lolol

Mostly I get comparisons to Joe Pesci!

marc henocq I've called it worse! ;)

I heard that TOO !!!

See what vital new things you can learn here? ;)

Question is what's a girl like you watching these videos? I like it

Home cheepo actually has that exact same Oatey spacer

I've seen the foam rings, but I'm not ready to use them for my clients yet. I'm not convinced they would seal over small imperfections as well as wax rings and I have no compelling reason to switch from quality wax rings anyway. Either way, though, I insist on bringing the flange up to the correct height. That way any leak has a chance of being noticed rather than being buried in the floor and that way the wax ring or other style of ring is used well within its design limitations.

@@enduringcharm I appreciate this response - i am deciding about using the foam vs wax because my first set leaked, but bringing the flange up level so leaks will show up makes a lot of sense to me. Thank you!

You're best bet is to go to a local plumbing supply store. They may not have this brand, but they'll have something just like it and you can see it in person before you buy. And, you may even have enough flange above the floor as is. If the flange is solid and pretty evenly exposed, you may be able to use a "jumbo" wax ring with an integrated funnel and be fine. Don't, however, be tempted to use a double wax ring, which causes more harm than good. If you install a jumbo ring and the toilet needs to be pushed downward to seat the ring, then you are likely good to go.

I will try the jumbo wax ring first as you've suggested. I sincerely appreciate your prompt feedback.

The bolts generally last the life of the toilet and then some, and you could easily pop in new bolts if necessary--the spacer works the same way as the original flange.

@@enduringcharm Thanks for the reply. I get the overall spacer idea, but if the bolts go in the two notches that you have lined up in the video, they won't come out without lifting the spacer. The semi-circle slots on the spacer look to be the opposite direction of the original flange slots. I have the same issue and was wondering what the solution would be. Is it ok to lift the spacer if needed down the road? Thanks again.

The spacer can be oriented two different ways, depending on preference. You can use the two edge slots or you can use the slots parallel with the edges. And you can always remove the flange in the future just be unscrewing it.

Sounds like a real gem!

FoxFreak If you are concerned about mixing the two types of plastic, there is a type of glue to connect the two. No certain if it is permitted in your jurisdiction, but it exists. To remove the existing flange you may be able to insert a rotary Dremel tool with a cutting disc into the inside of the pipe and make a cut that way. My plumber and I routinely use this method on shower drains to avoid opening up the floor. There are a lot of different flange configurations available now meant to provide solutions for situations like yours. It's possible one of these would allow you to reuse what's there without cutting at all.

There are two ways of attaching those bolts to the flange. One is with the elongated slots as you suggest. The other is with the small side slots which is the way I happened to hold it up in the video. The advantage of the elongated slots is some adjustability in the positioning of the bolts after the fact. The advantage of the side slots is the greater strength of two screw holes on either side of the slot. So, choose the method that best suits your needs at the time.

Thanks, bud. Good videos.

+Brad Phillips Spacers will work, but your circumstances will determine the best method of attachment. Sometimes toilet flanges in concrete are just buried and held in place by the concrete. You may need to use a hammer drill to drill screw holes and use the blue Tapcon style screws to hold down the spacer. They also make some specialized flange repair devices that span over the original flange using a metal plate which could be screwed down using the same method. Though meant for repair it also adds some height or could be used in conjunction with a spacer and sealant. If your original flange is cast iron or brass, you may be able to drill and tap machine screw holes into the old flange to hold down the spacer. I did exactly that one time on a commercial job that had a flange buried in concrete. Try finding a local plumbing supply store rather than the big box stores for the best options.

judy Potter Sometimes you do need to use longer or larger diameter screws. Sometimes you even need to drill new holes into fresh plywood or whatever you have for a subfloor. If the screws go back in to the same holes too easily or don't seem to have any "bite" you'll want to try one of these alternatives. You should be able to crank down fairly aggressively on the screws and have them hold. Make sure you use brass or other non-rusting screws.

enduringcharm Thank you very much... that's exactly what I was thinking, but since it wasn't specifically mentioned in any of the other posts below, I was second guessing myself.

If you can remove the existing flange, tile, and then install a new flange on top of the new tile that would be great. Sometimes this is possible with copper or with PVC/ABS depending on the circumstances, but it's impossible for me to judge that sight unseen.

+Mike Whalen There are at least three solutions I can think of if you have a cast iron pipe with a steel flange (I'm assuming you're not talking about copper and brass fittings). The old school cast iron pipes were connected to the flange with a lead filler that was poured in and left to harden. This would have been no later than the 50s or early 60s I would guess. Sometimes it is possible with the right access to melt the lead again with a torch and remove the flange, but this is a tricky affair best left to a pro with experience. A second solution is to purchase one of the handful of specialty flanges available that span the gap between the old flange and the finish flooring with a flat steel plate. The flat plate screws into the finish flooring and into the subfloor and is covered by the toilet. You'll need to go to a plumbing supply store probably. A third solution is possible if the cast iron pipe is well secured. I used this solution once when a cast iron pipe was buried in concrete in a commercial bath. You can drill and tap threaded holes in the old flange to accept bolts. Then you can secure the spacers to the old flange with the machine-threaded bolts. This assumes, though, that the pipe is solid and I would also be very careful about using caulk or grout around the toilet edge to help secure it. The second solution is probably your best option. Always use a quality wax ring with a built-in funnel too. That will direct waste water below the spacers and give added protection.

Yes, you can use the metal ring to get things flat and then use the spacers. The important things are to get the height and to make certain you have a good seal. Use a funnel-style wax ring to that end.

Well, if you mean an entire flange assembly with the funnel or pipe hub sticking out of the bottom, then no. If you mean you found just the circular flange "edge" then that IS the spacer. I can't really tell from your description what you have...

What I found was just the black plastic ring. It looks identical to the existing one in my bathroom and probably the same as the existing ring in your video. I was looking for a spacer like the white one in your video that has a lip on the inside. I'm not sure if the black ones are designed to be stacked or if it even matters. I assume a little pvc glue will seal it good enough but I don't do this for a living... Thanks for the video btw... very helpful and concise.

You might have some kind of repair ring designed to replace a cracked one. Hard for me to judge from here, but it might work if you silicone between old and new and screw down the new one through the old. Otherwise, you might want to find a plumbing supply store locally who can provide the correct ring.

+Austin Pehl People do it, but I don't care for the idea. The wax can deform as it is installed or it can work it's way out over time with vibration. Wax seals are not designed for large gaps. Plus, water can seep between the two wax seals. I get the height correct and use a single seal the way it was designed.

Hi. Sounds like doing a double wax seal is also not a great idea? That's what was done on my floor recently and I've had a little bit of toilet water seepage in the bathrom. Sounds like I need a spacer or two and then a wax ring with a built in funnel. Would you agree?

Diane Carrara The double wax ring idea is a remnant from decades ago when there were few solutions. It's a bad idea. The spacers you can purchase today will seal to the existing flange and get your height to where it should be, then a standard (or "jumbo" size if need be) wax seal with a funnel will complete the seal.

Perfect! Thanks!

Scott Amoroso It depends. If I think the old screws will be difficult to remove or there is some other mitigating circumstance I'll put the spacer on top and drill right through the old flange to fresh wood. If the old screws come out easily and still have good "meat" to grab on to when I reinstall them, I'll go that way. It really doesn't matter as long as you end up with a solid ring in the end.

enduringcharm Ok thanks for the quick reply. In this case the existing flange is brand new, the plumber just installed it on top of my new plywood subfloor. However, a layer of Schulter Ditra heat and then tile will be going on as well, so I know the flange will be too low. (not sure why the plumber didn't just install the spacer in the beginning knowing all this).

Scott Amoroso The plumber couldn't be sure of the exact height of the tile, but ideally he should wait on the flange until the tile is done. However, if this is new PVC there is a very good chance you can remove the screws he just put in and there will be enough play in the pipe and flange assembly that you can slide the tile under the flange and then screw it back down later. It works maybe half the time.

enduringcharm Ah thanks I never even thought of that. I could actually try that now to see if there is enough play to raise it. he may have secured the PVC under the house though, but I guess I will find out if it moves. Yes the PVC is all new as well, we renovated a 60's bathroom which had copper DWV, and now he replaced most of it (to the main) with PVC. I had asked him to install the toilet because i wasn't ready to tile, so in hindsight I guess he had no choice but to install the flange where he did. (otherwise it would have been too high with the tile not in place yet)

I'm afraid you have it exactly backwards. Both the international plumbing code and uniform plumbing code REQUIRE a watertight seal where the fixture meets the floor. This is typically interpreted by building officials as caulking or grout used around the edge. As for self adjusting flanges, there are a number of designs which may give you the ability to adjust height, but they will also require cutting off the old flange. That's not always a practical solution, hence the spacers.

Depending if you have plastic or metal pipe and what flange is already installed it may be no big deal to cut it off and start over or it may be a big PIA. But, at that kind of extra height you don't have much choice. There are some specialty flanges designed to fit on the inside of the pipe rather than the outside, so consult your local plumbing supply house for help.

Kendall Browning This is a common issue. As long as you choose a "jumbo" wax ring style with a plastic funnel built in to the ring, you should be fine. Get at least one side of the flange just above the floor surface and the wax ring will make up for the crookedness.

Sometimes you can find them at the box stores. I prefer the solid bottom style, rather than some which have voids in the bottom and won't seal as well. I've never found that style at Home Cheapo and only sometimes at Lowes. However, any local plumbing supply retailer will have what you need. Oatey is a brand I most prefer.

I found the Oatey solid bottom flange extenders at a plumbing supply store. The solid body flange extender also has a small lip on the bottom of the flange, that extends below the top of the original toilet flange. I was not able to find them at any box box stores or hardware stores.

A single "jumbo" wax ring is okay if it actually fills the space, but doubling wax rings is an old plumber's "trick" that should be retired. That technique often leads to leaks of water or sewer gas. Take the time to get the flange situated correctly--they make all sorts of corrective flanges now.

Essentially the flange should sit on top of the finished flooring. In your case you'll need to add spacers to get it there.

There are two potential bolt placements on many flanges, one pair with slots and the other pair which allow placement from the edge. You can use either, and when you are placing a repair flange over an existing flange you just need to make sure whichever pair you choose will align with the original bolt location.

You're right, sometimes you can get away with that if there is enough straight section and if you aren't dealing with copper or cast iron pipe.

why would you want all that extra work and risk if you put a tile floor in? Get a taller wax ring...

Rick Fountain It's true that people sometimes use a jumbo ring or even attempt to double up the wax ring. For me, I'd rather spend a few extra minutes getting the height correct rather than rely on extra wax to hold for a decade or two. Whether adding spacers or cutting off the pipe and installing a new flange, I just feel better about my work by getting it right in the first place.

What a waste of time that is...

No, the wax ring should seal immediately. You need to step back and look at the bigger picture. You smell a sewer gas odor. Are you certain it is coming from the toilet flange area? At what times does the odor appear--only after you flush or is it all the time? Have you examined other traps in the sink or shower for odor source? When you set the toilet on a wax ring with a proper height flange, the toilet bowl should need to be pushed steadily down in order to squash the wax and touch the floor. If the bowl drops right down without resistance, the flange is too low or the wax ring too thin. They do make a "jumbo" wax ring if needed. Another possible issue is venting. If one or more traps in your bath have no vent or an inadequate vent, then every time you flush you may be releasing sewer gas through the vanity or shower traps. You could also have a cracked vent pipe in a wall, or a cracked drain pipe. Take some time to think about these other possibilities and try an narrow down when, exactly, you notice the odor. You may find this video helpful too: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/rL9grM-ky5epgoE.html

Thanks for the response. Did the smoke test...nothing seen. All the traps in the house were filled. Vent is putting out warm air. It's a nightmare. He's tried to set it 3 times. God knows how much it's going to cost me. The smell is slight now, but I was hoping maybe the wax ring might move ever so slightly and clog up whatever tiny hole is left. I'm assuming using a double wax ring is the only step left, right?

Doubling up a wax ring is a dumb idea. Don't do that. You can raise the flange to where it needs to be if it is low. If the flange is tilted the wax should still conform, or you could try a foam ring. But, if the flange is at the proper height then I doubt the ring is your problem. I would still examine the other issues I discussed. This is what a foam ring looks like: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/oNmZgadj1c64gWw.html

The only place in the house where it smells is the bathroom now. It's strange because it gets worse with the toilet on, than when it's got a rag in it and the toilet is off. I don't know how the smell gets through a fully, well chalked toilet, even hit the flange bolt holes. You would think the smell could not get through the porcelain.

As I said, I think you have something else going on. Check for the proper venting, for cracked pipes, or for gas escaping from the other traps.

+Ross Lindley After cleaning the bulk of the wax off of brass or steel flanges you can use a propane torch or lighter to melt off any residue and wipe with a rag. For plastic flanges you do need to scrub. It isn't hyper-critical, though. The silicone will do an adequate job after the flange is screwed down to the floor.

+enduringcharm Thanks for the quick response. Cheers

You're welcome, and that is one of the proper positions! There are two options on many flanges, one is with elongated slots that allow a blot head to be slipped in and slid. The other is with the slots (as shown in the video) open to the sides, which also allow a bolt head to be slid in. Either one is acceptable, which one you choose will depend on how the flange lines ip with existing holes or your personal preference. Lining it up as shown in the video does have one advantage in that the bolt doesn't move around as much when you are placing the toilet.

+Michael Cocozza No, the answer was at 1:17--the flange should sit on top of the finish floor.

Sorry if missed that. I'm still confused as to what the height of the flange should be relative to the finished floor. On top, but it doesn't matter how high?

+Michael Cocozza The flanges are all essentially the same thickness (something around 1/4 inch) and toilets are all designed with that in mind. So, when you are adding spacers because of a new finish floor add enough to approximate what it would have been if you installed a new flange on top of the flooring. The world will not come to an end if you are 1/8 inch off--just get as close as you can.

+enduringcharm got it, thanks for your time!

Depending on the screws that you use and what substrate is there pre-drilling may be a good idea. Other times it isn't necessary.

See 2:47.

sinusguy Sorry to hear about your issues. I've found that the difference between a successful and unsuccessful toilet install over the long term is attention to detail. When done right, this system actually works quite well. After you make your repairs, make certain the flange is at the right height and that it is firmly screwed down to something solid. Use a quality wax seal with a built-in plastic funnel. These never leak. Make certain that the toilet is well secured to the flange AND make sure you use either caulk or grout around the edges of the toilet to seal it and to keep it from rocking in the future.

Any pure silicone caulk is fine--even if it says it's for windows and doors.

Does he amuse you...like a clown?

Go get your Shinebox!!!!

I think you missed some of the detail at 2:06. Spacers are caulked to the existing flange with silicone, which provides a watertight seal. They are also screwed in place for a mechanical connection. One reason I like the solid bottom spacers (1:33) over the hollow ones is that they seal better. Some flanges also come with a rubber gasket, but I'll seal that with silicone too. Also, I use the funnel style wax ring, which directs the exiting water below the flange anyway.

If the old flange just rusted away or was broken you still have options. If you have PVC or ABS pipes, there may have been a stamped steel flange or ring that was attached to the plastic in a groove. They make a split "repair" ring that fits into that groove and allows you to install a new flange onto the old pipe. If you have copper pipe, or a broken plastic flange, they also make various repair rings for those circumstances. Since there are so many options and scenarios, I'd recommend taking a picture of your problem and bringing it to the sales counter at your local plumbing supply (NOT Home Cheapo or Lowes). They will be able to offer a solution for your common problem.

The existing pipe is pvc 4". No flange is left. It had disintegrated into virtually crud. I removed it not realizing i may need it later on. I'm going to try one of those HydroSeats. Will post results here. Thanks for your reply.

Well, if the old flange was not PVC, and it doesn't sound like it was, then it was steel. So, you now have the 4" PVC pipe AND the remains of the plastic portion of the flange that was connected to the pipe. If that's the case then all you need to do is clean it up and use that split repair ring I mentioned. It's designed to fit back into the groove from the original PVC flange. It will be a cleaner solution than the hydroseat you mentioned.

thanks. that'll be my first choice. going to the hardware store as soon as i get off work. appreciate your time!

It is amazing what you find when you do this kind of stuff everyday--there is a lot of poor quality work out there.

Yes, they make jumbo sized rings, but you should still have the flange above the finished floor. The jumbo rings can be used when the floor is uneven and the toilet sits a little high, or when the flange is cocked to one side a little bit. Stacking wax rings or relying on a large wax ring to make up space is amateur-hour stuff.

Some areas are like that--they were older neighborhoods before plastic pipe became established and the plumbers preferred cast over copper. Actually, cast iron is still seen as a luxury sort of installation today because it is much quieter than other pipe. Sometimes high end homes are plumbed with it today for that reason.