Is Commander Better Or Worse Than It Was 5 Years Ago? Dies To Removal Episode 36 Magic The Gathering

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Tolarian Community College

Tolarian Community College

2 жыл бұрын

Vince has an in person paper Commander gameplay series??? Yep! And you can watch it here: • The EDH Gauntlet - Pap...
Did you miss out previous episode about Historic Horizons Arena's Digital JumpStart? Check it out here: • Is Historic Horizons A...
#mtg #magicthegathering #commander
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Music Courtesy Of
"Vintage Education" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0
creativecommons.org/licenses/b...

Пікірлер: 1 500
@TolarianCommunityCollege
@TolarianCommunityCollege 2 жыл бұрын
Is It Better To Have Powerful But Broken Sets Or Weak But Balanced? Our thoughts: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/hLKdmcmbm7SyYY0.html
@yoav.kats6328
@yoav.kats6328 2 жыл бұрын
Wait he has a KZfaq channel now?!
@dennismarinos2129
@dennismarinos2129 2 жыл бұрын
WAIT, That British guy HAS A KZfaq CHANNEL ???
@spartanlink_047
@spartanlink_047 2 жыл бұрын
That Australian guy has a KZfaq channel?
@Ketoinvestor
@Ketoinvestor 2 жыл бұрын
Dear Professor, if I may set forth an argument, Rule
@tonehunter8755
@tonehunter8755 2 жыл бұрын
I agree with Brian here 100% with regards to the steak vs. McD point. I remember when I used to get so excited about the yearly pre-cons, the quality of them and their design was so much more than it is now. As with the rest of magic, it has become over saturated
@jiml1672
@jiml1672 2 жыл бұрын
“Brexit Brian! There’s no eggs in England!!” Absolutely killed me
@DaR-Cee
@DaR-Cee 2 жыл бұрын
Best gag in the video
@zztzgza
@zztzgza 2 жыл бұрын
Well, it's true lol
@tsuruchibranwen8579
@tsuruchibranwen8579 2 жыл бұрын
breggsit? All the eggs left!
@nickolaslillogodoy3496
@nickolaslillogodoy3496 2 жыл бұрын
I lost it there lol
@Techmarine113
@Techmarine113 2 жыл бұрын
I laughed pretty hard on that one.
@alexknutson1617
@alexknutson1617 2 жыл бұрын
What do you want to see in the next Commander Legends set? "Better print quality." Truer words have never before been spoken. I laughed so hard at that response.
@lourencolimadacunha5493
@lourencolimadacunha5493 2 жыл бұрын
Ha, I laughed on that too, the commander legends quality with those very very very dark prints made me avoiding buying a full booster box. I bought 6 packs to play a sealed game with friends, and when I saw the cards: "OK, just some bad packs" - bought 3 or 4 more, opened and that was it for me. I like to collect a few cards from each set, but CL won't make to my binders.
@strav8672
@strav8672 2 жыл бұрын
@@lourencolimadacunha5493 the dark prints is nothing in comparison to the foil. For years, the From the Vault cards were greatly criticized for their tendency to curl, but low and behold the CL cards were curling in the packs themselves. Where buying a collectors booster, the only card that wasn't curled was the etched foil in the pack, and every other is just about unusable because of how curled the card came
@KingBobXVI
@KingBobXVI 2 жыл бұрын
@@lourencolimadacunha5493 - very DARK prints? Ha, you should have seen the collector booster foils, they were hot garbage. Ultra curled, and the black layer was like a 70% gray.
@freyak5401
@freyak5401 2 жыл бұрын
I accidently bought a CMR foil and I just used my non-foil version of the card instead. The foil was a dark, ugly, pringle
@jkattack2640
@jkattack2640 2 жыл бұрын
Got a pack foil kamahl that's so cloudy you can barely read it
@BillyTheFridge
@BillyTheFridge 2 жыл бұрын
I literally ended Commander night last night by playing a game of pauper with a guy who brought some decks. 1 v 1 was the dessert! Is this the Professor or the Prophetic??
@TolarianCommunityCollege
@TolarianCommunityCollege 2 жыл бұрын
I have been known to...prophess
@Eckendenker
@Eckendenker 2 жыл бұрын
The best night of magic I had in the last two years was with a friend that built/proxied 6 premodern decks. We just rolled decks over and over and had a great time. Cool old cards we know and love, interactive, great variance of strategies and playstyles, quick games and drawn out games. It was heaven. We talked for days after it about making slight changes in sideboards.
@fatpad00
@fatpad00 2 жыл бұрын
It really makes so much sense. First two guys out of the pod? Grab another format deck and jam a 1v1 while the rest of the pod finishes the commander game.
@Bluex12345
@Bluex12345 2 жыл бұрын
@@Eckendenker This is the dream bro. I feel like many of the players who box themselves into EDH get burned out from its inherent casualness (variance + card pool) once they start being more competitive.
@carlosespada6350
@carlosespada6350 2 жыл бұрын
Sometimes the game feels great, where everyone has done what their deck wanted to do, to a point that you no longer care who wins, since you enjoyed that hour of game.
@Chagastom
@Chagastom 2 жыл бұрын
the problem is that everybody just wants to go infinite and tutor for win cons
@carlosespada6350
@carlosespada6350 2 жыл бұрын
@@Chagastom there are different types of decks. I have all kinds just for whatever experience the table wants. If you want the fastest game: Belbe, do you want Chaos Ikra & Ludevic Curse deck, want aggro wins: Saskia or Silvar & Trinn humans, Want to play against control without combo: Araumi, or control with combo: Taigam.
@MattTorres
@MattTorres 2 жыл бұрын
@@Chagastom the worst games are when I feel like im the only one trying to play a game and everyone else is just spending their first 5-6 turns are mana rocks, tutoring and shuffling their decks... and then the game just ends when someone explains to me that the cards they tutored for end the game, without anything actually happening, and I cant do anything about it.
@eric360elite
@eric360elite 2 жыл бұрын
That's why cedh / power edh exsist. You can stop people doing such things if you allow all strategies to be played.
@Barracius
@Barracius 2 жыл бұрын
Even before watching, just the fact you get to sit in the same room together again is awesome and heartwarming.
@joshuaanderson1852
@joshuaanderson1852 2 жыл бұрын
To be fair, you could totally do that five years ago. 😉
@joaotonhati4033
@joaotonhati4033 2 жыл бұрын
@@joshuaanderson1852 great comment. I lol'd
@evakajetaniak
@evakajetaniak 2 жыл бұрын
they're not actually together it's editing
@caleb7882
@caleb7882 2 жыл бұрын
@@LukeFromNY Don’t blame them. They were told they would die if they went outside, so they didn’t. It’s the media’s fault, not theirs.
@electric_dream_machine
@electric_dream_machine 2 жыл бұрын
For me commander reflects the exact state of Magic: Power creep, a million products, everything has a hundred lines of text, simic, mana cheating. Whether it's better or worse than it was 5 years ago, depends on if you like these things.
@CarlosTorres-vj3vh
@CarlosTorres-vj3vh 2 жыл бұрын
Simic. God that's so true...
@fercanche2279
@fercanche2279 2 жыл бұрын
I like Simic, but I like it better when it isn’t an immediate turn off for everyone else, so…
@anthonydelfino6171
@anthonydelfino6171 2 жыл бұрын
5 years ago these problems were already ingrained in the format from Wizards printing the "made for commander" cards. I can think back to Meren and Ezuri dominating tables, and those decks are coming up on 7 years old now. 5 years ago we just had the biggest mistake many will say has ever been introduced into the format with the eminence mechanic.
@davidny212
@davidny212 2 жыл бұрын
Well said. A lot better than this hour slog of preening.
@nomative8915
@nomative8915 2 жыл бұрын
@@enthusiasticnihilst1032 I would and do play that version of magic that you're outlining. Also same power level does not mean all card are the sames. It should be possible to make new cards without breaking certain rules. At least until you run out of ideas.
@Phavahg
@Phavahg 2 жыл бұрын
Our play group solves the casual-optimized issue by having ONE player bring ALL FOUR decks each week. The builder gives a briefing on the purpose of each deck. Everyone then picks a deck, with the builder picking last, or we just randomly assign them. The builder should win the majority of the games, right? But that's not what we've seen. Anyway, it works for us and we have fun with it. Thanks for your videos!
@davidberg5544
@davidberg5544 2 жыл бұрын
We have occasional deck swaps where you have to play someone else's deck. Lots of fun but, same as yours, does require a play group you trust your cards with
@CanuckMonkey13
@CanuckMonkey13 2 жыл бұрын
Brilliant idea!
@MattTorres
@MattTorres 2 жыл бұрын
That sounds really fun, if only I could afford to have that many decks lol
@Phavahg
@Phavahg 2 жыл бұрын
@@MattTorres Lately, we've discovered that a 60-70 card deck plays the same as a 100-card deck for most of the decks we'd play. Plus they don't take nearly as long to build, nor cost as much. Since we tend not to play decks more than twice, repetition is not an issue.
@johnasenfranks5860
@johnasenfranks5860 2 жыл бұрын
@@Phavahg we are also playing commander most of the time with 60 card decks
@andrewtaylor5883
@andrewtaylor5883 2 жыл бұрын
What I feel could help commander games: -Understanding other player's game experience *If you do a nasty turn and become threatening do not pretend that the rest of the table is on your level*
@kingfuzzy2
@kingfuzzy2 2 жыл бұрын
Most of the time I've seen that happen the player who's deck is better is very confused for the entire game about how the other players let them get to that point.
@andrewtaylor5883
@andrewtaylor5883 2 жыл бұрын
@@kingfuzzy2 Forsure. Agreed. The lower on the power level players go the more this happens. I've seen it happen numerous times but on accident. A player just plays good pieces if the table isn't removal heavy when that point of the game comes that 'little engine' takes over.
@kingfuzzy2
@kingfuzzy2 2 жыл бұрын
right on.
@carloserausquinhoyos3298
@carloserausquinhoyos3298 2 жыл бұрын
I feel like what attracted me to the format in the beginning was that I finally had a place to explore my timmy tendencies with no worries of having a super optimized deck combo off in 5 turns; then slowly but surely that started to change, made worse when WotC started designing cards specifically for the format and printing 5x as many legends per set. you can even track the powercreep by looking at something like the history of content like the command zone podcast; when they first started you'd see cards like darksteel ingot and coalition relic in their builds, now the only "playable" 3 cmc mana rock is skyclave relic
@TehSeksyManz
@TehSeksyManz 2 жыл бұрын
Is Basalt Monolith not playable these days?
@soren1803
@soren1803 2 жыл бұрын
@@TehSeksyManz it’s not really a mana rock
@TehSeksyManz
@TehSeksyManz 2 жыл бұрын
@@soren1803 So, it is considered to be more of a combo piece, I take it? I suppose that makes sense!
@thestormtrooperwhocanaim496
@thestormtrooperwhocanaim496 2 жыл бұрын
@@TehSeksyManz uh oh, wombo combooooooo
@TehSeksyManz
@TehSeksyManz 2 жыл бұрын
@@thestormtrooperwhocanaim496 Yaaa babyyyyyy
@IronWilliam
@IronWilliam 2 жыл бұрын
Five years ago, I was playing commander at my college game club on Fridays, and some of the optimization / power creep was already there. I've tracked the power of commander through the fall of a favorite and popular card, Sheoldred, and five years ago she was already seen as expensive and slow. I remember the more casual era of commander closer to seven or eight years ago.
@lordgriselbrand4600
@lordgriselbrand4600 2 жыл бұрын
sheoldred is still great in cube!
@jonlangthorne7924
@jonlangthorne7924 2 жыл бұрын
The discussion about sitting down and playing commander “to win or to play” sums up perfectly the frustration I have with some commander players at my LGS. I think the increased power of card design in recent years has caused some players to forget about the table experience and concentrate too much on winning. Commander at its core is a social multiplayer format and I think it’s lost some of that core value. To me commander is about playing big dumb plays and having longer games where everyone gets the opportunity to play their deck and do something before an eventual winner is decided. I adopt Vince’s attitude where I don’t play certain cards like cyclonic rift because it’s boring, predictable and makes the table groan. I avoid very high levels of counterspells and interaction because I want to see what people do with their decks. My objective is always just to not come last rather than win. I still win my fair share of games but I’m much happier knowing everyone at the table is having fun than pushing for the win every game.
@kingfuzzy2
@kingfuzzy2 2 жыл бұрын
Absolutely casual play is about fun not winning
@Brutusque
@Brutusque 2 жыл бұрын
@@kingfuzzy2 In my group we call that "getting satisfied" hahah, one needn't win to get satisfied. Also, go pillow fort strategy!
@michaelsimmons8613
@michaelsimmons8613 2 жыл бұрын
What's interesting to me is a lot of the conversations are reflective of the old complaints about netdecking. The idea is you start with a natural chaotic messy format that is fun because of the chaos. But as cards are designed for the format, precons are made, and content creaters instruct the chaos dries up and the format because stable and a bit boring. It doesn't mean the format is bad, for one that is exactly why the format is easy to access. In the end it just comes down to the players and the pods taken the initiative on their own to talk about the deck and have fun. Personally the best move my playgroup has is 1. whoever won has to swap decks And 2. Everyone is honest about the tempo they want to play. Two simple rules that keep things balanced and ensures the games keep feeling different and hopefully fun.
@Ixidora
@Ixidora 2 жыл бұрын
I completely agree with this, your playgroup's rule about the winner swapping decks is really smart as well. My playgroup's problems have directly stemmed from a couple players taking content creators recommendations and sinking loads of money into their decks and swinging the power balance significantly in their favor compared to those of us that just grab some random stuff we own and throw things together. I'm not bashing content creators but I do think they've created a secondary formulaic form of Commander. That's not a bad thing but certainly an important talking point for playgroups.
@golem001px
@golem001px 2 жыл бұрын
@@Ixidora sorry but that rule of the winning player swaping his decks not only isn't smart but actually is very bad, how are they supossed to grow as players if they keep avoiding the powerfull decks instead of triying to beat them?
@Ixidora
@Ixidora 2 жыл бұрын
@@golem001px it isn't that they're trying to avoid the winning decks, it just ensures that there isn't one deck always at the table and that there is always a variety of competition. Also just because a deck won and was swapped doesn't mean they'll never play against that deck again.
@Aqua19858
@Aqua19858 2 жыл бұрын
Is swapping decks after winning not like, an unspoken rule of Casual? I've always felt like it would be boring and a bit of a dick move to play the same deck that I just won with, and that was the expectation.
@Aqua19858
@Aqua19858 2 жыл бұрын
@@golem001px Playing Commander for most people isn't about "growing as a player", it's about having fun.
@averyphipps4940
@averyphipps4940 2 жыл бұрын
100/10 Perfectly timed and executed Brexit joke 🤣 (I love the idea that Vince would use planeswalking to cheat on household chores but goes all the way to Ixalan for eggs)
@colinh5299
@colinh5299 2 жыл бұрын
That joke had me hunched over laughing
@TomHickey
@TomHickey 2 жыл бұрын
"You know what Dockside will be in? We've got 'triple masters' or 'double masters 2' and that's what they're saving it for, because they need those big expensive cards to justify their premiere sets." Prof hit that one on the nose!
@Moose00019
@Moose00019 2 жыл бұрын
The ideal mentality for EDH is to play at a level the pod is looking for, while playing to win such that it could be fun for the rest to lose to. When losing can be fun, or at least not miserable, then you have found the right combination.
@VexylObby
@VexylObby 2 жыл бұрын
"Create decks you would love to lose against". But also, find like-minded people.
@MrSeanfish
@MrSeanfish 2 жыл бұрын
@@VexylObby Creating decks you would love to lose against doesn't work. For example, I hate losing to decks that are not 100% optimized. Not because I feel like they don't deserve to beat me but because I wish that the loss could have been given to me by the player and their deck at their best. If you told me to build a deck I would like to lose against, I would make some form of cEDH control deck because I can't get enough of the problem-solving part of fighting good control decks. But very few other players feel the same way. The second point, of finding like-minded players is really the only way to be happy.
@LivingThing28
@LivingThing28 2 жыл бұрын
I’ve been battling depression for the last year and a half (since the start of Covid), and it’s been rough on me. I’ve gotten less and less enjoyment out of Magic, but I still keep playing it because of the great memories I have with the game. I still enjoy your content, and I really appreciate the dedication and quality entertainment from you. Thank you
@vaultdweller1009
@vaultdweller1009 2 жыл бұрын
Hey. You! You're awesome. Keep on keeping on
@LivingThing28
@LivingThing28 2 жыл бұрын
@@vaultdweller1009 Thanks, I really appreciate that
@TolarianCommunityCollege
@TolarianCommunityCollege 2 жыл бұрын
Keep fighting. You're great and you are going to get through this. I am rooting for you and I am not the only one.
@LivingThing28
@LivingThing28 2 жыл бұрын
@@TolarianCommunityCollege Thank you, it means a lot
@misstarajeane1321
@misstarajeane1321 2 жыл бұрын
@vanessaeve925
@vanessaeve925 2 жыл бұрын
I have an $80 Verazol deck that is one of my favorite decks to play. I also have a $700 Locust God deck but I find myself playing it less and less just because it's harder to find others who won't feel pubstomped by it I could put a Dockside or other "must have" staples in every deck but at that point why? I don't want to sit down to mirror matches in Commander. I like that all my decks play so differently and have their own personality.
@plain6677
@plain6677 2 жыл бұрын
Verazol is the most interesting simic commander. It plays differently from match to match thanks to kick, so it’s like having a 150 cards deck. Locust God always play the same. So maybe it’s not only the $$$ but the strategy itself you prefer.
@mryoso31
@mryoso31 2 жыл бұрын
Same. I have 46 decks as of now and all of them have different paths to victory. Didn't even put any combos on all of them.
@stevesmith5883
@stevesmith5883 2 жыл бұрын
Same, I have lots of different decks ranging from super low power £20-30 budget deck to a full on cEDH deck and everything inbetween. They are typically quite different though I do have a soft spot for tribal decks so I have like 4 of those but they are quite different. Selvala Eldrazi and Dimir Zombies are v different decks haha, and Tovolar werewolves is just Gruul face-smashy fun.
@mryoso31
@mryoso31 2 жыл бұрын
I have some above 500 usd decks but most of the cards are just overpriced RL's that are not even in Cedh level. Vesuvan doppelgangers, Forks etc are expensive cards but can just be used for casual decks. I call them "bomb cards" where most of my collections are just hard to find cards which are not even relevant before EDH era.
@crypto727
@crypto727 2 жыл бұрын
I have a very similar situation. My emmara soul of the accord deck $1000, but the deck I love playing more than that, Ayula. They play incredibly differently, and depending on the group and situation, I have either way.
@NGPhotoVideo-Youtube
@NGPhotoVideo-Youtube 2 жыл бұрын
Here's my take: Commander has different levels of play (how you want to define those levels is not the point here), and I make decks that can be strong within the level they play in. Even though my (for example) Wyleth voltron deck can be VERY strong at the level it plays against, if I try to move it up a level, I get crushed, and if I try to move it down a level, I'm pub stomping. It depends on the meta of the group you're playing in and it depends on the level everyone wants to play at. I try to keep decks on hand of many different power levels but I also try to make my decks as strong as they can be within the power level they are set in. Sometimes they get enough improvements to move up a level or sometimes I realize they're not as strong as I thought and I shift them down a level.
@JohnnyYeTaecanUktena
@JohnnyYeTaecanUktena 2 жыл бұрын
You know sometimes it is hard trying to make the strongest level 7 deck without accidently making it jump up to level 8 or 9 because consistency even with bad decks sometimes makes them too strong and able to compete with the level 10 decks while occasionally winning. But not all level 7's can do that as the legendary you have as your commander is mostly solely important on how strong your deck can be
@NGPhotoVideo-Youtube
@NGPhotoVideo-Youtube 2 жыл бұрын
@@JohnnyYeTaecanUktena I mean yes, there will always be anomalies, and that will happen no matter what you do. It's important to analyze your deck based on it's average gameplay. Every deck will have moments where it flops and moments where it shines, that's unavoidable. Regardless, it's up to the deck player to determine if their deck has moved up or down in power level and change when they play that deck accordingly. Personally, I build a deck as strong as I can (aka: as strong as my budget for any given deck will allow), and then I determine what level that deck has sat in. Usually I do this by putting a new deck in matchups that outrank it, and if I lose a bunch, move it down to a lower power level setting. If I still keep losing, keep moving it down until I find the point it can be competitive without being overpowering. TLDR: It's 100% up to each player to make sure their decks aren't overly powerful for the pod they're in. Simple as that.
@JohnnyYeTaecanUktena
@JohnnyYeTaecanUktena 2 жыл бұрын
@@NGPhotoVideo-KZfaq I have actually made a competitive deck at the cost of $20 USD before. These days the deck would probably cost around $100 to $200 USD due to some of the foils as foils do that
@NGPhotoVideo-Youtube
@NGPhotoVideo-Youtube 2 жыл бұрын
@@JohnnyYeTaecanUktena Oh I won't deny that competitive decks can be made on a budget. My comment about $ was just implying that some of the decks I have built could be even stronger if I had some more costly cards in them.
@JohnnyYeTaecanUktena
@JohnnyYeTaecanUktena 2 жыл бұрын
@@NGPhotoVideo-KZfaq Not necessarily, as cost does not quite equate to power even if you rule out foils as you would need cards that had synergy with your game plan tp raise the power or some mana rocks/mana fixing to make it more consistent. Like again synergistic cards are better than costly cards as not every Nekusar or Xyris deck would take Timetwister if the person had access to it and both benefits from opponents drawing cards and instead more mana would be better that way you can play the wheel cards more often getting more snakes or killing them with Nekusar burn
@erfunk
@erfunk 2 жыл бұрын
"Commander only works when everyone sits down at the table and pretends that it works." Same thing with a society. Deep thoughts for a Tuesday.
@theDJOcho
@theDJOcho 2 жыл бұрын
Glad I'm watching this on Tuesday
@VexylObby
@VexylObby 2 жыл бұрын
That comment was mixed with his distaste with people's problems with specific experiences, however. If somebody doesn't like being armageddoned, do they just tell themselves they are having fun, when they clearly are not?
@Interesting_Failure
@Interesting_Failure 2 жыл бұрын
we play in a format bottom text
@VexylObby
@VexylObby 2 жыл бұрын
@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305 Which includes not playing with people that will not adapt to players' tastes.
@RedbeardYonko
@RedbeardYonko Жыл бұрын
Money only works because we all agree it's worth something, but it's just pieces of paper.
@stephenorr6636
@stephenorr6636 2 жыл бұрын
That Planeswalker, bit 5 out of 5! I Loved it! Great job guys!👏👏👏👏
@KuroKitten
@KuroKitten 2 жыл бұрын
Vince screaming bloody murder to planeswalk was *chefkiss*
@DoubleBeast
@DoubleBeast 2 жыл бұрын
Give me my 2 tokens, Stephen.
@julianvickers
@julianvickers 2 жыл бұрын
I look forward to this being uploaded to the podcast feed in August 2024
@TolarianCommunityCollege
@TolarianCommunityCollege 2 жыл бұрын
Optimistic.
@soarel325
@soarel325 2 жыл бұрын
What even is the issue with the podcast feed?
@maplz9314
@maplz9314 2 жыл бұрын
it feels like most of this conversation revolves around playing with trusted friends and not the ever more powerful world of commander decks out there. Talk to someone who hasnt played in 5 years and they will most likely have a massively different concept on what low mid and high power is across the format.
@roadrash2005
@roadrash2005 2 жыл бұрын
Lately whenever playing commander I’ve noticed players guaranteed to win by turn two. So I’ve had to drop the cmc to even keep up
@ROMANTIKILLER2
@ROMANTIKILLER2 2 жыл бұрын
@@roadrash2005 yeah... basically the casual social format at LGS pods is dead, nowadays it's pretty much singleton Legacy for tryharders that do not feel like playing the actual completitive formats. Of course, for those lucky enough to have a playgroup of friends, it is possible to agree on which kind of game people wants to play.
@panga910317
@panga910317 2 жыл бұрын
"Terastodon is such a bomb" - Everyone, 5 years ago.
@Zomburai45
@Zomburai45 2 жыл бұрын
"Commander's your only option" I'm old enough to remember when people would be willing to play casual Magic or multiplayer Magic in ways that weren't Commander. I love Commander but it's tiring and frustrating that it's become The Only Format in so many circles.
@basilmemories
@basilmemories 2 жыл бұрын
I mean there's draft, but that's a big buy in. other formats are available, but they require more overhead than commander. Commander, for time and interactivity reasons, really fills the "firday night poker" slot pretty well. (but i agree, i want to slamjam some canadian highlander, as homegames wouldn't care if i proxy the needed duals)
@egoish6762
@egoish6762 2 жыл бұрын
We used to play attack left defend right with 60 card anything goes decks around the table, was a simpler time.
@exsnypre
@exsnypre 2 жыл бұрын
I miss Emperor, the Hunt, and Chaos Magic (with printed out d100 effect sheets). People could play their standard deck, a jank pile, or a "legacy" deck and have a blast at those tables. Now, if it's not constructed or draft, it's always Commander and no one even has casual decks anymore. Those days were the best.
@felipeguidolin1055
@felipeguidolin1055 2 жыл бұрын
I still play "kitchen table Legacy" with my friends
@Rewwgh
@Rewwgh 2 жыл бұрын
Pack Wars, non-Prerelease Sealed, Wizard Tower, Highlander all are fun formats that I miss.
@damonhymer5960
@damonhymer5960 2 жыл бұрын
Having played Commander since it’s inception, I’ve found that every year brings a reduction in diversity. When I build a deck, there are fewer choices. Sure, there are always new spells, but you select 8 removal, draw, etc., and then the archetypal staples, which dominate slots, and he seems the reduction in choice. I love it, but it has become somewhat mechanical
@stephenbradford8524
@stephenbradford8524 2 жыл бұрын
Honestly, this is why I build meme decks anymore.
@Hitzel
@Hitzel 2 жыл бұрын
Why are you choosing staples enough to dominate your slots though? I make new casual EDH decks all the time and I usually only pick the best card in slot if the entire point of the deck revolves around it or the deck has some crippling weakness that demands I make the remedy as potent as possible when I draw it.
@LunaMirage
@LunaMirage 2 жыл бұрын
Sorry to hear that. Are you using the precon commanders? I've tweaked my Estrid deck a lot and have recently decided to completely pivote my deck to include flash. I was themed around untapping my lands and pillow fortress. I'm adding vernal equinox, emergency zone, alchemists refuge, and leyline. (I didn't have any of these before), I'm also adding seed born muse, wilderness reclamation, and about 15-20 other newer cards since 2018. I'm into themed decks though. I've got a mono black big mana vampires deck, a strefan red/black vampire aristocrats deck, a Estrid enchantment deck, and a morph deck.
@anthonydelfino6171
@anthonydelfino6171 2 жыл бұрын
I am building currently a deck where one of my restrictions in deckbuilding is it can't contain any cards that were first printed in any of the commander decks or in Commander Legends. I'll be very interested to see how it stands up, but I do expect that other decks will easily stomp over it. I'll be willing to admit I'm wrong if it can be just as competitive as other decks out there, but I suspect that designing legends and cards to move product has created a scenario where the format is WAY more powerful now than it was before 2011.
@waaaaaaah5135
@waaaaaaah5135 2 жыл бұрын
Maybe try what Mitch is doing: aside from the commander, each card in the 99 is $1 or less. I've been able to build some interesting budget decks as a result.
@anyguymtg
@anyguymtg 2 жыл бұрын
Also I remember that Commander used to be that you could find a random odd uncommon and you'd be able to stick it in your 99 and be happy about it. Also Staples of today were dirt cheap. Aetherflux reservoir, Smothering Tithe, Anointed Procession... I traded and bought these for a few € when they came out since they were not played in modern or standard.
@Eckendenker
@Eckendenker 2 жыл бұрын
The best night of magic I had in the last two years was with a friend that built/proxied 6 premodern decks. We just rolled decks over and over and had a great time. Cool old cards we know and love, interactive, great variance of strategies and playstyles, quick games and drawn out games. It was heaven. We talked for days after it about making slight changes in sideboards.
@goombajenkins4317
@goombajenkins4317 2 жыл бұрын
I play a premodern like format with my brother. It's the only format I play. Not only is the game more balanced and fun, but it looks much better with no ugly new frame cards.
@jakeb.2708
@jakeb.2708 2 жыл бұрын
8:00 : every once in a while, my friends and I do my jumpstart cube, which is more fun personally than the drafting portion of casual limited with friends. Can't wait for JS2
@Pandahboymtg
@Pandahboymtg 2 жыл бұрын
When I think about it I'm blown away that we got 15 Commander decks this year. When a new deck comes out it's not as exciting.
@underscore_5450
@underscore_5450 2 жыл бұрын
"Made for commander" cards kinda take the fun out of the format imo. Commander for me is about finding a way to take advantage of having consistent access to a specific legendary creature. What kind of combos can I do with constant access to this affect? What kind of cards suddenly serve a different purpose when this effect is in the game? What fairly useless cards are now super broken because of a certain interaction with this creature? Stuff like that makes commander fun. Once you start including cards made for those kinds of interactions, it feels like it takes the fun out of it. Precon commanders nowadays are more like enchantments than creatures.
@jebrooks
@jebrooks 2 жыл бұрын
Beyond that, made for commander cards kinda take the fun out of searching for hidden gems in old sets, or looking through standard stuff to find good cards to add. The made for commander cards and sets just setting it down right in front of you spoils deckbuilding enjoyment sometimes too.
@joaogrrr
@joaogrrr 2 жыл бұрын
Gotta make money. You know, since everyone caught up on the swindling and rigging on Magic Arena and no one is playing online or IRL. I say fuck WotC
@sjdhrjrjejdhdhsh
@sjdhrjrjejdhdhsh 2 жыл бұрын
Every time I go to make a commander deck I want to make a Keranos one and then I remember he's just too bad as a commander anymore.
@GeelsProduction
@GeelsProduction 2 жыл бұрын
While I agree with your point, I'm glad to have arcane signet alongside cards that read "choose one. If you control a commander, choose any" or even [leadership vacuum] which makes target player return their commander(s) to the command zone
@neilcotton9184
@neilcotton9184 2 жыл бұрын
Good point about the power level of pre-cons going up. I've noticed this as well and it feels like we're seeing a de facto rotation happening.
@berendboer8459
@berendboer8459 2 жыл бұрын
I distinctly remember how back in the supposed Golden Age before the pre-cons, we were running into pretty similar problems. Yeah, it was just "throw together all the cool cards", but... Cradle is cool. Survival is cool. Swords of X and Y are cool... and thus those who had been playing for a decade (or had plenty of mana to spend) threw together their coolest cards and produced powerful decks. And the people who only had some Alara block draft chaff were mad that they couldn't compete. I don't think we ever really solved the problem. Other than that we stopped playing with the guy who insisted on de- and resleaving half his deck before every game to move all his power cards into whatever deck he was playing...
@rayswift5711
@rayswift5711 2 жыл бұрын
Sometimes it seems the Commander's problem is less about fixing the format and more about getting away from some certain people.
@TheChill001
@TheChill001 Жыл бұрын
to be fair, during the golden age of EDH (not commander), there was much less preconstructed, people built their decks rather than using lists, there was more actual brewing and brainwork involved. Now commander is almost exclusively cEDH with the majority of commander cards having broken abilities that circumvent the original rules of the format...which is rather frustrating for those who lived through the time that edh was the format you played after FNM and such, just casual.
@naejin
@naejin 2 жыл бұрын
9:52 "ram gang mother" what a disturbing yet hilarious awkward set of words for Vince to stumble upon, he tried to get away from with "whatever"
@PleasantKenobi
@PleasantKenobi 2 жыл бұрын
Whoopsie.
@parc_
@parc_ 2 жыл бұрын
The pregame talk 10yrs ago was, 'what's everyone playing?' 'alright everyone, kill Vivien's value deck first' Then whoever the Vivien is will think 'maybe i should play a deck people will actually let me play'
@alkhemia23
@alkhemia23 2 жыл бұрын
that still happens in my group if someone playing a deck that we know is a problem we kill them first and they know it lol
@boosterofwonder8719
@boosterofwonder8719 2 жыл бұрын
This was a very interesting video. Thank you both. And I love so much the intros and the timing of the very last cut for each and every single videos of DTR.
@andrewpayseur
@andrewpayseur 2 жыл бұрын
This is seriously, one-hundred-percent my favorite content and discussion as it pertains to MTG (or any gaming really)! I really love the discussion you two bring to the table- even the webcam ones. @20:59 I don't really see much salt anymore actually. I would argue that the salt was real BEFORE the pandemic, and at least at my medium-sized LGS the rule 0 convo is alive and well. Like really good spirited. People share deck lists on moxfield and stuff to make sure that there aren't any surprises. However, to what you folks are saying about people getting upset about the existence of some cards is very real. People discuss a card within the decks' strategy, and folks will literally stand up and say, "Your deck sounds great, I just don't care for that/these cards. I think I'll find another pod." Lots of people hopping up and shuffling pods and stuff based on decks being played and perceived power levels based on rule 0 conversation. Conversations are amicable, but it SUCKS that people essentially (in my mind) say to us through those words, "I want to win. I don't think I can win through that card. I don't want to even try and play through it or around it, let alone remove it." THAT is the problem with Commander in my mind (if there was to be one that could paint every corner of the format while being painted with such a broad brush).
@Mmoll1990
@Mmoll1990 2 жыл бұрын
22:10 There's bannings in every format because Hasbro is pushing Wizards to continuously break every format and turn eternal formats into rotating formats. It's compromising game health for corporate greed.
@DeadBodyMan
@DeadBodyMan 2 жыл бұрын
This podcast addresses one of the things that I really appreciate seeing when the Professor plays commander on Game Knights or other commander shows. I like Game Knights but it’s always the same cards week after week. It is like 70% of their deck is the same but they just change out a few pain lands or fetch lands and swap a dozen or so creatures to remain on theme. The Professor always has interesting creatures and mechanics from different times in Magic’s history. He shows us how more of our collection can be useful on these kinds of games if we pay close attention and read the card. He often shows us how to turn our jenk into jewels and gives me hope for casual play.
@ChiralWolf
@ChiralWolf 2 жыл бұрын
52:47 you have to keep in mind what the "new player" products used to be. new players weren't being pushed to get ur-dragon commander decks they were being marketed to get intro decks, planewalker decks, and the like. And we still get an annual commander decks! $20 commander decks dont in mean we don't get the more notable decks too. This year we had the cycle of very well received strixhaven themed commanders
@Rachel-im6yc
@Rachel-im6yc 2 жыл бұрын
I think I enjoyed commander the most when it was some random new format my friend heard about called EDH. We wanted to play multiplayer and it sounded fun so we threw together piles of "good stuff". As we played more we made deck improvements and spent more money on various cards and eventually had to deal with a lot of the issues that have become "The Rule Zero Conversation". Most of the problems we encountered were solved with setting price limits on decks or individual cards. It isn't perfect as prices change wildly at times. But there is an expectation-or at least a perception-that a $500 deck is going to crush a $100 deck most of the time. This did a lot to prevent egos from getting bruised. To me it will always be a kitchen table format where sometimes you get blown out on turn 5 and sometimes it will be a 2 hour slug fest, with be best games being somewhere in the middle. Players and play groups need to learn to be okay with Conceding. It's a very clear indication that you aren't interested in continuing the current game. Sometimes just switching decks or getting a better starts is all the table needs to have a great time. Also, let people free mulligan a few times. No one is sitting down to play Magic because their favorite way to play is: Draw-Discard-End.
@kingfuzzy2
@kingfuzzy2 2 жыл бұрын
I've had more fun now than when I started playing magic jank has never seen as much support and that makes me super happy.
@colinmiller513
@colinmiller513 2 жыл бұрын
It's a delight seeing you both in the same room again. What a wonderful reunion \ʕ •ᴥ•ʔ/
@ericmay2741
@ericmay2741 2 жыл бұрын
I find this a very interesting conversation from older pure magic players. I’m a yugioh player who has recently gotten into just commander. Commander really gives yugioh players that old school itch, and the optimization (staples) is few enough where it still feels like I’m creating a deck that is unique. Yugioh only has 40-60 cards, but 85% are non-archetype staples and every deck feels samey. Commander, as it is still feels unique enough. Perhaps my opinion will change down the road, but I find it very fun and refreshing.
@ByronAndOnAndOn
@ByronAndOnAndOn 2 жыл бұрын
I feel this hard. Whenever you start building a Yugioh deck, you start by adding 9-13 handtraps, red-eyes fusion and its pieces, foolish, ... until only 20 cards are still left for your actual deck engine (which are also all OTKs). Seeing Commander was such a revelation, the slow pace, the singletons, I genuinely love it. I love that it is casual. I love talking, playing cool cards, interacting with stuff my opponents do and have shifting alliances, so I love this format.
@ericmay2741
@ericmay2741 2 жыл бұрын
@@ByronAndOnAndOn I feel this 100% I love the interaction, which is what yugioh has been missing for years now.
@ericmay2741
@ericmay2741 2 жыл бұрын
@@ByronAndOnAndOn the other thing is the staple engines for MTG have mostly been the same for years, but there’s enough budget alternatives to still keep it competitive and refreshing.
@josephcourtright8071
@josephcourtright8071 2 жыл бұрын
Yugioh is completely broken at this point. I had an old school deck that is designed to just keep recurring Red-Eyes over and over again. Phoenix Enforcer is a single card that does my entire deck better than my deck. Commander is broken by design. Its the problems with being a competitive game with so many legal cards, the best will always float to the top. The colors keep it a little more diverse. But for example Sol Ring is a staple. If you are not running Sol Ring, then you are doing it wrong. As they release more cards we'll end up with more staples.
@ericmay2741
@ericmay2741 2 жыл бұрын
@@josephcourtright8071 it’s true, it is inevitable, as MTG doesn’t utilize a ban list as effectively as Yugioh. But for now it’s still fun and varried enough.
@aegisgolem6817
@aegisgolem6817 2 жыл бұрын
One thing I’d like to mention, before I forget, cause I haven’t finished the section and you may have touched on it: I’ve only been playing magic since keledesh, and started playing commander in Dominaria, so I wasn’t as deep in when the commander decks were these hodge podges that had call backs or unique spins on even older sets and stuff like that, but this is my experience being on the board of execs for my college’s magic club: the commander decks bleeding into the set they come out with is absolutely amazing, both for getting new people into magic, and getting current drafters/standard players to play commander. The genius lies here: because the commander deck bleeds into the set, buying a precon can mean immediately upgrading it, because your date stamped card/lucky pull goes amazing in the deck. My go to example for this recent set is I bought the zombie deck from hunt, and pulled necroduality in my vow prerelease kit. While I do like the idea of commander decks being this deep dive into the lore and characters of old sets(one of my favorite past times is reading lore on MTG wiki) if we want to continue increasing and bringing in new players to commander, especially those that started in limited or 60 card magic, I feel having commander decks heavily tied to a recent set release is an amazing strategy. I’d just like them to also make sure they do print at least a commander deck to go with these more flavorful or lore filled supplemental sets, that what you can have the decks that are more reminiscent of how they once were, and continue on this honestly great plan
@miked7299
@miked7299 2 жыл бұрын
Fantastic discussion - you summed up what i've been trying to convey to people that I play with so that we're all on the same wavelength and enjoying ourselves in our own ways, i'll be sure to share it around! Thank you!
@jamessheffield9091
@jamessheffield9091 2 жыл бұрын
With all the Timmy and Johny players moving to commander as the main format, the Spikes had to move too - which means commander has become more competitive. I've played in casual commander tournaments with ridiculous ways to score points and the players that HAVE to win make the game miserable for everyone. I've also played in a cEDH tournament and it was a lot of fun as games were nicely balanced (comparatively).
@panga910317
@panga910317 2 жыл бұрын
Once there's a prize, the concept of "casual" disappears for many.
@DevineAbyss
@DevineAbyss 2 жыл бұрын
@Phillip P. Once there is a price it's not a "casual round of magic, where everyone just wants to have fun" anymore. Once there is a price, people tend to "want" that price. And you get that price by optimizing 110%. If you want a casual game where noone tryhards for the win, you cannot have prices. Would you casually play a 2v2 on a fussball-table with the worst player around in your team, if there is 100$ on the line? No, you take the best teammate you can get if a price involved kick the noob out. (:
@jamessheffield9091
@jamessheffield9091 2 жыл бұрын
@@DevineAbyss I agree to a certain extent, but if the tourament is based on obscure tribal decks which 15/16 players adhere to the spirit of the stipulation but there's one player twisting it to a fast combo deck... Personally I'm sticking to cEDH for tournaments but there are plenty of players who want to scratch a competitive itch but try to remain in the confines of a regular commander game - unfortunately they're going to continue to be disappointed.
@sandwichboy1268
@sandwichboy1268 2 жыл бұрын
At least in cEDH, we all have the same expectations
@zotha
@zotha 2 жыл бұрын
CEDH removes the primary difficulty that commander players run into, power level discrepancies.
@mr.horseshoe2301
@mr.horseshoe2301 2 жыл бұрын
There are so many Commander pre-cons now that our group draft the decks and play them against each other. They are relatively balanced so no drama regarding power levels. Best way to play Commander, IMO.
@elipetrou9308
@elipetrou9308 2 жыл бұрын
Neat idea, I feel as if most pre cons can be very sluggish and unsynergistic, with awful mana bases and a very high curve, but maybe very slightly upgraded pre cons (just enough so you’re playing the game and not just going land pass) would be fun for my group
@TehSeksyManz
@TehSeksyManz 2 жыл бұрын
@@elipetrou9308 I'm with you. Not casting a single spell for 3 turns necause the curves being so high isn't my idea of fun.
@selkokieli843
@selkokieli843 2 жыл бұрын
sound absolutely solid!
@iluminas2866
@iluminas2866 2 жыл бұрын
what we do is get the pre cons and buy 1 display and upgrade the decks with that display then play
@mr.horseshoe2301
@mr.horseshoe2301 2 жыл бұрын
@@elipetrou9308 True. We usually just upgrade the lands with proxies if a deck is particularly slow. No other changes.
@origaminosferatu3357
@origaminosferatu3357 2 жыл бұрын
So glad to see you guys finally meeting in person! Hope you have/had a lot of fun playing. Personal thoughts on (my favourite) format: Rule 0 is really useful as long as it doesn't become a "you can't play that," kinda chat. I'd be happy with commander decks coming out more regularly for new players, (though I wish they were 20 quid not 40,) perhaps with a commander set like "Commander Legends" coming out once a year to introduce a bunch of weird new mythics to play around with. I've loved a lot of the new mythics they've made this year, from the bunny rabbit, to Slogurk, from Rograkh to Rionya, they've been super fun.
@forbunnie
@forbunnie 2 жыл бұрын
My ears are hearing a conversation between the Professor and Vince but my eyes are dream towards the bookshelf. Nice to see someone else appreciates Terry Brooks. You should do a bookshelf tour prof.
@thorpate1698
@thorpate1698 2 жыл бұрын
I work at an LGS , and the professor hit the nail on the head! The precons are only selling for the reprints, we have boxes of the Selesyna precons from Midnight hunt . Product fatigue makes things feel not as important, just my opinion
@kingfuzzy2
@kingfuzzy2 2 жыл бұрын
I honestly just buy for the reprints it has been a very long time since a new commander has been Janky/unique Enough to appeal to me.
@christopherreay3242
@christopherreay3242 2 жыл бұрын
I feel that Commander was best placed as 'everyone's favourite second format' rather tha the premier format of MTG. Before it was fun and casual. Now it's the main thing to do, people have gotten competitive. Plus the made for commander stuff
@JohnnyYeTaecanUktena
@JohnnyYeTaecanUktena 2 жыл бұрын
Its not that people have gotten more competitive its more so that commander is the most balanced format while somehow being the least balanced at the same time so people have to do rule zero and talk about power levels of what they want to play
@jeef16
@jeef16 2 жыл бұрын
so it's impossible for you to find casual games on spelltable? or a casual playgroup irl?
@christopherreay3242
@christopherreay3242 2 жыл бұрын
@@JohnnyYeTaecanUktena yeah, it could be. My original comment was half way through the video. Having watched the rest I was a little confused about the thoughts behind cedh and casual EDH being you need to have the right playgroup. I know that most formats are similarly fun to play if the decks are balanced against each other. Sure, Commander was started as a casual format specifically but it has competitive players and even vintage and legacy have casual players
@christopherreay3242
@christopherreay3242 2 жыл бұрын
@@jeef16 I didn't say it was impossible to find casual games, just that I think the format has suffered from being the premier format that people play and was better when it was something silly that people played between rounds or after a tournement.
@JohnnyYeTaecanUktena
@JohnnyYeTaecanUktena 2 жыл бұрын
@@christopherreay3242 I will say one thing a lot of competitive decks like power level 10 the top of the top re actually diverse to the point you can't really guess what someone is going to play as the meta is huge. Like there are also a lot of decks that are still 10's winning by turn 4 but they just don't see play because people want to play with newer stuff instead of going through Magics history. It is entierly possible to see a Phage the Untouchable as a commander at the table and it ends up killing everyone by turn 3 because no one expects fringe competitive There are also some good competitive cards that no one looks at especially if it is tribal such as Kaseto, Orochi Archmage as simic cedh
@Tuss36
@Tuss36 2 жыл бұрын
I think at least part of what the Professor was struggling to convey near the end, about how impactful previous commanders were compared to recent ones, is that recent ones lack history. In recent sets, there are many legends that have a card but no visible impact on the world. They don't show up on other cards, they don't have a significant impact on the story, and this is the first time we're seeing them. I don't know who Eruth or Torens are (and I bet you have to look them up), and while their cards speak for them, that's all we get, vs the precons where we got things like Nahiri and Freyalise finally getting cards, callbacks to well loved planes, as well as things we just don't get any more. We don't get snake people like Kaseto or Phyrexians like Atraxa that often, meanwhile we already have this entire set (two in this case) dedicated to vampires and horror, we've had our fill, we don't need cherries on a cherry sundae with cherry whip cream. And because sets are crammed with so many legends, few are able to make an impact. When everyone's super, no one is and all that. While it's true supplementary sets pick up the slack, the point is before commander precons were special in that it gave us glimpses back into the worlds of yesteryear, bringing us things standard just couldn't provide, not just from power but from planes. Now precons are more like DLC for the main set, blurring in with it.
@jamesvp4391
@jamesvp4391 2 жыл бұрын
What a great video! Thank you gentlemen, you've made some good points and given us all things to think about. I can't wait to bring this up with my regular commander companions.
@Timby_
@Timby_ 2 жыл бұрын
Prof describing the commander player asserting their happiness in the face of the absurdity of the format is what every absurdist philosopher used 500 pages to describe
@SgtNukem007
@SgtNukem007 2 жыл бұрын
The store that I play at has been doing a commander tournament instead of casual commander before standard and it's killed the consistent player base at the store. The house rules effectively banned infinite combos, so it isn't quite cedh but no one is encouraged to build unique decks, and you're frowned upon for not wanting to pay to play some casual commander before standard. It's a shame
@MasterKynar
@MasterKynar 2 жыл бұрын
I did buy the midnight hunt pre-con decks on sale. as a way to introduce myself as well as my wife to commander. Had so much fun I had to get the crimson vow.
@dreamwalking
@dreamwalking 2 жыл бұрын
I have to comment how good that opening skit was. The writing, timing, delivery; the screaming to planeswalk, "They evelolved" ... It's just so good. The Professor really has a gift with his skits, and Vince did his part perfectly.
@joshuadempsey5281
@joshuadempsey5281 2 жыл бұрын
"I'm sorry, there's only a finite amount of fun at a table, and I'm having more of it if I can!" Words to live by! lmao
@PleasantKenobi
@PleasantKenobi 2 жыл бұрын
My motto.
@joshuadempsey5281
@joshuadempsey5281 2 жыл бұрын
@@PleasantKenobi Guess I better go build that Magda Stax deck I've been thinking about lately! >:)
@sailordaigurren8225
@sailordaigurren8225 2 жыл бұрын
I hate that attitude.
@joshuadempsey5281
@joshuadempsey5281 2 жыл бұрын
@@sailordaigurren8225 lol ok
@neilnightblade
@neilnightblade 2 жыл бұрын
Excellent point when you say "Despite more and more cards coming out, you see less and less and variety in EDH decks." I'd say you even see less haymakers and pinch hitters. Now it's just value engines, combo pieces and "staples"
@kingfuzzy2
@kingfuzzy2 2 жыл бұрын
Fortunately I'm mainly seeing jank at my lgs because there's always a new player who everyone feels bad about bringing their more powerful decks to play against them.
@SuperMmm90
@SuperMmm90 2 жыл бұрын
9:00 The Commander’s Quarters still make incredible budget decks
@0331ball
@0331ball 2 жыл бұрын
Yall killed it with this episode. Defining commander as illusory is perfect! Great video
@raleighpentecost7684
@raleighpentecost7684 2 жыл бұрын
These arguments are solid and applicable, yet I feel it's more achieveable in a playgroup. You consistently meet with particular individuals and apply a social contract with one another. Playing with strangers is the wild west of interaction, will they or won't they play some degenerate stuff. Were just going to have rip the band aid off until we're hopefully successful in finding a playgroup, that sticks.
@fullrodizio
@fullrodizio 2 жыл бұрын
At the recent CFB Vegas 2021 event, me and my two friends walked into the Command zone. They asked us if we wanted a 4th player, who was a guy standing at the entrance looking for a game. We said "sure" and were seated at a table. During our Rule 0 conversation, we disclosed that we were playing casual decks which were level 6 or 7. He said "oh, cool" and wanted us to pick one of his two decks. We refused, and asked him to pick for himself. He went off on turn 4 and won the game, when the 3 of us had 3 lands and a single creature on the battlefield. We just said lets shuffle up and play again, but he said he didnt have time to, and left. Made for a great story, but I am not sure why every major event I go to, I experience something exactly like this. More and more, I am being invited to implement solution of simply skipping the Rule 0 conversation, but instead, to bust out my fully powered Atraxa Infect deck, and take the cunning player out when they demonstrate that they are obviously playing a cEDH deck, so we can actually play a decent game of commander. I can always play my deck down, but I cannot play my level 6 deck up to deal with stuff like this.
@shadyoakum9978
@shadyoakum9978 2 жыл бұрын
Cooperative in match goals would be an interesting metric for large scale commander events. Each pod becomes a team.
@PatJamma
@PatJamma 2 жыл бұрын
That intro was absolutely wonderful. For a bit there I thought the joke had gone on too long, but the last line brought it home. :)
@sentania
@sentania 2 жыл бұрын
God Vince nailed the ban thing. We really as a community need to adjust our discussion around bans and expectations.
@VexylObby
@VexylObby 2 жыл бұрын
I don't mind finding a group of people that won't play banned cards, just so others don't have to worry about bans or that discussion. But for cEDH, it makes a lot of sense that bans should exist.
@ximbabwe0228
@ximbabwe0228 2 жыл бұрын
Wizards keeps churning out heaps and heaps of cards, i mean its kinda understandable because they sell like hotcakes, why not keep making more? The ban list growing with the game is perfectly fine
@ghostanbu1099
@ghostanbu1099 2 жыл бұрын
I think the days of horse tribal being able to win in commander are long gone. Commander has moved closer to what modern and these other competitive formats are and a lot of it is determined by the commander. Too many commanders just do too much now that old school ones cant compete even in very casual settings.
@tonyclavelli1228
@tonyclavelli1228 2 жыл бұрын
I LOVE the discussion around the 21:00--about the success of the format kind of existing on a mutual belief that it works. I actually think that weird belief requirement is one of the coolest (or at least most intriguing) parts of the format
@vil3on
@vil3on 2 жыл бұрын
The bit at the beggining made me think about how awesome a silver bordered set about the content creators of Magic would be. Imagine our own universe as one of the planes, and the Prof and Vince as legendary creatures. So cool
@professorpantherhardraad3921
@professorpantherhardraad3921 2 жыл бұрын
"Better print quality." I don't know Professor, I think you might be asking for a bit much there.
@pomposso_typer
@pomposso_typer 2 жыл бұрын
I remember I used to buy every single commander product when it came in the early days. We used to get everyone together to play with the precons before we changed anything. Ever since they started making them more often, it lost its appeal because now it's so hard to keep up with all the cards coming out. Last one I bought was commander2017. I haven't had a desire to but a commander precon since.
@TheBaconMagician
@TheBaconMagician 2 жыл бұрын
I like that quote a lot, "you can't ban me into behaving". Hit the nail on the head~
@beardedwonder211
@beardedwonder211 2 жыл бұрын
Thank you for the perfectlycutscream at 0:57. Vince's expression is hilarious
@fantasticfreddie
@fantasticfreddie 2 жыл бұрын
Yes, finally a new episode!
@limpec33
@limpec33 2 жыл бұрын
Was waiting for it since vince did his video about Double feature
@altered_beast_of_burden
@altered_beast_of_burden 2 жыл бұрын
So glad to see my favorite dynamic duo back together again. Dies to Removal is the best and this episode was another success. Would absolutely love to see you guys go square off against Lynch and Joe on I Hate Your Deck! Cheers.
@quantumlandbooks4005
@quantumlandbooks4005 2 жыл бұрын
Love the way you tallked this through. I honestly see the commander precons as a good way to pick up a lot of small cards to fill up decks that I can get without amassing delivery and customs costs for singles and to get some reprints of cards that were first made before I started playing but I totally agree that they're just not special anymore.
@kelvinmhill5611
@kelvinmhill5611 2 жыл бұрын
With rule zero in mind. When i play with players i never have played before, I ask people play there average deck, not thier most powerful, not the weakest. Then after the first game we can all decide to go who should power up and who should go down.
@deanofcool
@deanofcool 2 жыл бұрын
That’s all well and good but not everyone knows the power level of their own decks. A lot of my decks have the potential to do busted things, but I have that many decks I alternate between and am making so many more, that I never get enough games in with a single deck, to judge consistency. There is only so much free time at the weekend to play.
@humanfactorsio
@humanfactorsio 2 жыл бұрын
The issue here as well is depends on win condition. Commander is inherently more prone to draw chance than say, modern. It is totally plausible a deck could stomp lucky 1 in 10. Should this be downgraded to a 1 in 15 win? Sometimes the imbalance is clear, but not in every case.
@Crypt4l
@Crypt4l 2 жыл бұрын
Simple answer: It has the potential to be better, since we have way more relevant options. It's also way easier to build powerful decks. Is more powerful decks good? - Depends. But if you don't like it, just don't.
@RyeFields
@RyeFields 2 жыл бұрын
While I think you're definitely right that powerful magic is even more accessible, I think the argument of if you don't like it don't build it just makes more problems when you look at an LGS. I've walked into stores where cedh was the game and had a great time, but ironically lower power stores seem more hostile to first timers when I walk in with powerful decks. Staples not being printed enough makes barriers and it's a simmering hostility that's building within the community in my opinion.
@Hitzel
@Hitzel 2 жыл бұрын
@@RyeFields When it comes to an LGS I think it comes down to how the community there handles power levels. My LGS has a pretty great community and most of the people there play at all power levels with multiple decks from precon-level to cEDH. The community is also proxy-friendly. New decks and players fitting in come down to the different power levels and playstyles they happen to enjoy so you really don't see any of the envy or hostility you describe, if that makes sense.
@SuperMmm90
@SuperMmm90 2 жыл бұрын
23:30 I think Vanguard’s choice restriction is a better system if you want to do something like that because if you don’t, you would have to assign an irresonable amount of points to either Leovold or Teferi’s Puzzle Box.
@rossmctaggart2729
@rossmctaggart2729 2 жыл бұрын
great chat..I remember playing lots of 5 player FFA tables way back on mtgo and we used to say lots of similar things about it as a broken yet favorite format... that format is a ghost town now.
@gypsieking3280
@gypsieking3280 2 жыл бұрын
Re: Precons. I like that They can expand on set themes more with set precons but they do feel less special. My chouce in a perfect but impossible world is that they drop the set precons back to 25 dollars then have a proper 4 or 5 deck premium, "set neutral" set of decks like in years past. But that is pie in the sky type thinking.
@mrstizzle9049
@mrstizzle9049 2 жыл бұрын
Commander used to be, mtg's magical Christmas land format, where you could play with the cards you had, throw in a bit of synergy, showcase your creativity and still compete. The mindset of the player base has changed, and its now about playing the most efficiently and is becoming a "competetive" format such as a multi-player modern or legacy. Obviously not everyone or all playgroups are like this, but as a whole it seems to be the direction the format is heading.
@inquisitorofkozilekgames4478
@inquisitorofkozilekgames4478 2 жыл бұрын
EDH has had people playing high power decks for a very long time. It's really not a new thing at all.
@mrstizzle9049
@mrstizzle9049 2 жыл бұрын
@@inquisitorofkozilekgames4478 agreed ppl have played high power for a very long time and there are pplwho still play low, but the format as a whole is shifting towards the faster higher power decks.
@Itryhardder
@Itryhardder 2 жыл бұрын
I love the AAAHHHHHH before he planeswalked lmao I always kind of thought that must hurt a little.
@atlys258
@atlys258 2 жыл бұрын
I was pretty evenly split between buying singles for what I needed and boosters to crack for fun as well as draft with, but I also was a weirdo that liked buying the supplemental intro decks and duel decks because I'd regularly find random jank from old sets in them that I'd be interested in building around or implementing in decks for my casual playgroup. Probably my favorite example of that was buying a couple of the Elspeth v. Kiora decks for the face cards but then I fell in love with Gustcloaks and built a pretty sweet monowhite aggro deck revolved around Gustcloaks and then another GW soldier token deck to ramp into back-to-back Captains of the Watch.
@1235q
@1235q 2 жыл бұрын
My big problem is too many legendaries and commander precons - a lot of interesting ones are outshined by the clearly pushed ones.
@sephyrias883
@sephyrias883 2 жыл бұрын
Well yes, but actually no. More legends isn't a bad thing, at least not necessarily. Overpowered commanders have always been there, that's something you can't fix. If we think back exactly 5 years to 2016, that's when Atraxa and the 2 color Partner legends (Thrasios, etc.) came out. Up until Sharuum came in C13, Zur the Enchanter was the de-facto best Esper Commander (and arguably still is, but Alela and Sharuum can compete).
@1235q
@1235q 2 жыл бұрын
@@sephyrias883 the more legendaries they put out each set the less special they feel. It didn't use to be like this where I'm worried that I might regret building a new deck since in just a month or so a bunch of new legendaries will come out that might outshine the previous ones. Idk the format has just become too overwhelming to me to keep track of with so many products and legendaries and also so many new staples each year.
@FearOgre
@FearOgre 2 жыл бұрын
@@sephyrias883 Alela and Sharuum can not compete with zur.
@TheGrifcannon22
@TheGrifcannon22 2 жыл бұрын
I think it really comes down to WotC forcing "rotation" into eternal formats. People were playing eternal, non-rotating formats and weren't buying into new sets like standard and draft players were so WotC forced a power creep into these formats so people would feel forced to keep buying new sets.
@charliewright2667
@charliewright2667 2 жыл бұрын
Lol one of these days they're gonna power creep sneak attack
@skeletalswan
@skeletalswan Жыл бұрын
Couldn't have said it better myself.
@LatheOfChaos
@LatheOfChaos 2 жыл бұрын
I really liked the chat. I always enjoy you both talking together. It seems you two are true friends. The Vince in the back was really quite.
@haofabs
@haofabs 2 жыл бұрын
Best Magic Podcast out there. The skits, the sarcasm, the insights and the punchlines at the end. Just love it
@mufasafalldown8401
@mufasafalldown8401 2 жыл бұрын
How about an expanded banlist that seeks to eliminate all of the auto includes in each color, as well as fast mana (including sol ring). It would encourage build diversity when those "auto include" card slots are freed up. I think it would create a healthy alternative "casual" commander. The other banlist could remain and all you would have to ask is "is this casual commander?"
@Envy11235
@Envy11235 2 жыл бұрын
You mean how comp players have done with cedh, French edh, and/or dual edh? The last thing any of us want is another ban list to memorize.
@WillisPtheone
@WillisPtheone 2 жыл бұрын
There will just be other less optimal auto includes. Commander is a broken format there is no way to fix it that will have it remain Commander. It is a social game meant for a social experience not a competitive one. Everyone is playing to win as it is a game but playing to win and playing FOR the win are two different things. Having a strategy in your deck that can win you the game is not the same as only putting in the most optimal cards. The most optimal choice is the one that brings you closet to winning some people want to do a thing that brings you closer but in a fun or interesting way its still moving to the same end goal but its the path it takes. It really is what is more important having a fun social experience or winning if it is winning then it will inevitably result in exploiting the broken nature of the game. At every level there are broken cards that while not over powered are solely there because they are the best to get from shuffle up to win as opposed to oh my deck does x so this card would be fun and can help me win.
@mufasafalldown8401
@mufasafalldown8401 2 жыл бұрын
@@WillisPtheone That's the point of my suggestion. There will be different cards with different strengths/weaknesses amongst the less optimal versions of the "auto includes". It's just a suggestion. I see people asking the question "What is casual commander" quite a bit on various channels. Having a simple list of the most obvious "auto-includes" could help to define "Casual". Eliminating the boring staples doesn't make combos or big plays go away it just makes games more interesting.
@Ragwar
@Ragwar 2 жыл бұрын
As a new player I LOVE the precons, I love how accessible they are, how they are on an equal power level, that they tend to have different cards and the same staples over and over again and so I can build a collection of cards and I can build some decks on my own, and I really enjoy the low power lever they are at. Its so hard for me not to not buy the latest precons :)))
@sillyfox7148
@sillyfox7148 2 жыл бұрын
Love the content guys. Glad you guys are talking about it. The most important part before and during commander games will always be communication in my opinion.
@kelseyo402
@kelseyo402 2 жыл бұрын
I’ve only been playing magic for a year so it is interesting to listen to these conversations. It is really tough sometimes when you know there is one card that will make your deck go off, but it is crazy expensive. But I often want to test these cards when they are huge investments. I have a few decks with proxies to accomplish this and it seems most people are totally fine with proxies if it is one or two cards. So honestly some cards I might just keep as proxies and just make sure I discuss it as rule zero. I also understand the “I won’t optimize my deck despite having a card” I bought the Phyrexian secret lair and immediately found homes for Sheoldred, Elesh Norn, and Urabrask, but I can’t bring myself to put Vorinclex or Jin Gitaxias in any decks right now unless I build a deck meant to be cEDH. I think it comes down to knowing your play group and how it operates what is a do and what is a don’t. Then if it isn’t with your typical play group make sure your rule zero convo is as honest as possible.
@MakeThisPlaceIgnite
@MakeThisPlaceIgnite 2 жыл бұрын
Me: Simple and clean is the way that you’re making me feeel tonight. Prof: 23:55
@LucMMailloux
@LucMMailloux 2 жыл бұрын
My old play group from about 7 years ago had some simple rules for our Commander games: No infinite combos & no fetching for nonland cards. My current group plays Pauper EDH instead cause it's far cheaper and you don't have to deal with crazy powerful stuff outclassing the rest of the table as much.
@fasdaVT
@fasdaVT 2 жыл бұрын
pauper has a ton of crazy powerful cards. Dark ritual is a common.
@keithmpire
@keithmpire 2 жыл бұрын
I like the Nitpicking Nerds solution to Commander imbalances: They made a Commander Cube that doesn't contain any degenerate combos. That seems to work pretty well.
@Digi_Manz1
@Digi_Manz1 2 жыл бұрын
Such a great conversation ! And it made me reflect on why I buy the precons and how I build my decks. The biggest reason I play commander is to have fun, of course I’ll get salty at times but I also enjoy watching a unique deck go off. Standard is still fun but that’s what I use arena for. It’s too much to keep up with via paper Magic . Draft and modern will still have its place as well in my play groups .
@donistotle957
@donistotle957 2 жыл бұрын
Unpopular opinion: I've grown to like the product overload and the constant bombardment of new cards. As I start to show up at live commander nights again, I find myself going "ooo what's that card" more often. I've missed that "new player" experience and now realize how exhausted I was with knowing all the cards in the game. It just feels good to reach across the table, pick up an unknown card, and think "wow that's a cool card I didn't know about."
@TehSeksyManz
@TehSeksyManz 2 жыл бұрын
NGL I am stoked for spoilers always, regardless of how many we get. I totally understand the criticisms, though. I just have attention span issues and am always excited for the next batch of cards, especially for pauper.
@battleshatner1097
@battleshatner1097 2 жыл бұрын
On the next episode of "Two old men shake their fists at the sky" we'll delve into the "good old days" when people played "real" magic!
@IzzysIssues
@IzzysIssues 2 жыл бұрын
Can't wait to see them play a game of Commander with no modern legal cards, mana burn, and damage on the stack
@user-se1hq5es5y
@user-se1hq5es5y 2 жыл бұрын
Drop the quotation marks and it's quite accurate
@user-se1hq5es5y
@user-se1hq5es5y 2 жыл бұрын
​@@beurtalvarez a multi-billion dollar corporation has the final authority on the game, yet somehow I can't play it the way I want to, that is opposite to the way the corporation promotes. You went a bit overboard on gaslighting to be taken seriously, I'm sorry
@stackingdamage7340
@stackingdamage7340 2 жыл бұрын
The quick rounds of modern after EDH night with the boys has already begun in my playgroup. I see that wheel turning - sometimes you just need a quick 60 card aggro/combo palate cleanse.
@bobbobnz
@bobbobnz 2 жыл бұрын
I have a rule which works for me in terms of keeping my decks at a level where I have varied powerlevels. I have 16 commander decks currently, and apart from lands, and artifacts, i barely run more than one copy of any card across ALL of the decks. I have 1-2 competitive decks where anything goes, then beyond that across all the other decks, I only have 1 cyclonic rift, 1 tutor, 1 dockside extortionist etc etc. I found that not only does this help me from racing the decks to the top in terms of power level, but it keeps the creative juices going as well.
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