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The Dark Night of Aragorn’s Confidence After Gandalf’s Fall in Moria

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Tolkien Lore

Tolkien Lore

2 ай бұрын

Aragorn has a significant amount of self doubt after Gandalf falls with the Balrog, in contrast to the dynamic, confident leader we see in much of the rest of his story. This hints at aspects of his relationship to Gandalf that aren’t really that explicit in the story, but we can find other bread crumbs....
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Пікірлер: 69
@gandalfolorin-kl3pj
@gandalfolorin-kl3pj 2 ай бұрын
My dear melon Geek, Humility is not lack of self-confidence. Aragorn knows that Gandalf is wise and his reliance on him is what he was trained to do. This is not mere habit from having met him early in his own life. This is the wisdom he learned from dwelling in Rivendell and being brought up by Elrond. Then, too, Gandalf's entire mission is to advise and guide. He is, as Tolkien admitted, a "guardian angel." So it is only correct for Aragorn to recognize this, and to keep Gandalf's counsel before his own. It is also humility which leads Aragorn to question his decisions after Gandalf's fall. But this is the way with the humble. They always blame themselves rather than someone else for a fault. Of course Aragorn would want to retain Gandalf as his counselor after his coronation. What king would not desire such a wise wizard at his side? But he knew before he spoke that Gandalf's time was spent and that he had to return to his own place. In short, having a "dark night of the soul" is a certain trait of a hero. We should doubt the ability of someone who always thinks he's right. Aragorn takes the proper steps to ensure he is right, even when objectively he turns out to be "wrong." But in the end, were his choices really wrong? Was he not proven to have learned from Gandalf's wisdom? Keep up the great work, Geek. Namarie.
@pwmiles56
@pwmiles56 2 ай бұрын
I think it's simpler. Aragorn is the man of destiny, he knows it, but he doesn't know how the destiny will play out. He becomes more interesting when his guide and mentor, Gandalf, is taken out of the picture. In this way the ground is cleared for a fascinating interplay of character and circumstance.
@danithefoot633
@danithefoot633 2 ай бұрын
I'm sure losing Gandalf felt like losing a father or at least close uncle
@Crafty_Spirit
@Crafty_Spirit 2 ай бұрын
Hmm good question. Aragorn lost both his parents at young age and Elrond became his foster father. He first met Gandalf at age 25. Yes I can see him as uncle, friend, maybe even father
@Adam-ne7qc
@Adam-ne7qc 2 ай бұрын
It's also very Christian theme: Aragorn, being doubtful and in dark hour, gave up also the control a bit, what in turn allowed the Providence to act: and finally, all his decisions turned exactly right: Frodo and Sam departed so ring could not tempt anyone powerful anymore, and Aragorn met Gandalf just in time to help Theoden just in time to fight Isengard just in time to then help Minas Tirith.
@RamBear88
@RamBear88 2 ай бұрын
This channel feels like having a friend who is as into LOTR as I am. Excellent video, mellon.
@elphiegleason3899
@elphiegleason3899 2 ай бұрын
This dude and podcasts about Tolkien keep me fascinated
@tarkajedi3331
@tarkajedi3331 2 ай бұрын
NEVER THOUGHT ABOUT THIS.....
@ZephyrOptional
@ZephyrOptional 2 ай бұрын
Are you going to Scarborough fair? Parsley, sage, rosemary, and thyme.
@stawnpawnthe3rd991
@stawnpawnthe3rd991 2 ай бұрын
This was a great topic! You should make a sequel to this video where you go more in depth on the resolution of Aragorn's period of self-doubt, particularly when the resurrected Gandalf confirms that 'he should not regret his decision at Amon Hen'. This is why I don't understand when people act like he had no character development in the book, and then criticize the movie character for being too weak. The movie character is not shown to question his decisions as much, but he does doubt his worthiness of being king (which imo is an example of humility along the lines of what another comment was saying). So both versions struggle with self-doubt in different circumstances. I'm not sure which version of this character-conflict is more compelling though?
@istari0
@istari0 2 ай бұрын
I far prefer book-Aragorn. Movie Aragorn would have been plausible when he was much younger and first found out his true history but by the time of the War of the Ring, he knew what he had to do.
@micklumsden3956
@micklumsden3956 29 күн бұрын
⁠And his actions before the Black Gate in the film were both wicked and stupid.
@istari0
@istari0 2 ай бұрын
You went to Scarborough Faire?! I haven't managed to make it there in decades.
@TolkienLorePodcast
@TolkienLorePodcast 2 ай бұрын
That’s the one! It’s something I’ve wanted to do for ages and only finally got around to doing this year.
@jonathonfrazier6622
@jonathonfrazier6622 2 ай бұрын
I don't see Aragorn speaking slowly on Weathertop as a sign of self doubt. He's looking at an imaginary overhead map, running out different scenarios, where might the Nazgul be hiding, where will they go, where should we go. Its a chess game. You just really think out the different possibilities on the field before you make a move.
@jbclayville
@jbclayville 2 ай бұрын
I enjoy your videos, thank you. It’s said, “You can never be a man until your father dies.” I trust Aragorn was mourning and reflecting in an appropriate way, not in an “unhealthy place.”
@coreyander286
@coreyander286 2 ай бұрын
Alternate timeline where the Fellowship just freezes in the Redhorn Pass, and a traveler comes across their bodies in the summer, along with the Ring, like some kind of Middle-earth Dyatlov Pass.
@Crafty_Spirit
@Crafty_Spirit 2 ай бұрын
12:14 That's a memory from Trotter though 😉
@christina3512
@christina3512 2 ай бұрын
Scarborough is probably my favorite faire I've visited (my home faire is Colorado), I hope you enjoyed!
@BogaSlawa
@BogaSlawa 2 ай бұрын
Nice shirt, I like it.
@tolstukha
@tolstukha 2 ай бұрын
Ok, I guess if you loose the leader of your enterprise and now you have to be one, and the current project is kind of a matter of life and death - you gonna doubt your capability no matter how competent you are
@hglundahl
@hglundahl 2 ай бұрын
Gave this some think. Aragorn need have felt no general distrust in his own ability, just a kind of feeling his decision-making is kind of cursed on this venture. Perhaps it even was, and he got clear once the ring was away with the ring-bearer? He was of course Isildur's heir.
@David.Bowman.
@David.Bowman. 2 ай бұрын
Aragorn should have listened to Boromir all along - though maybe not about the Ring! - until finally Boromir’s death gave him little choice. Rewind all the way to before Caradhras and a third way was spoken of and rejected: the Gap of Rohan. Aragorn rules it out because he didn’t know the allegiance of Rohan. Whereas Boromir said before in the Council that he knows them and says they are true. Aragorn then leads them up Caradhras. Boromir doesn’t question it but his advice of wood and fire keeps them alive until he uses his brute strength to lead them back down. Gandalf wants to go to Moria. Boromir says Gap of Rohan, repeats his sentiments. Aragorn warns Gandalf but still follows his lead to Moria. Its quite funny to look back and see how many times Boromir’s advice gets shot down lol And ultimately it’s the time taken to make him a funeral that gives Aragorn a moment to take stock and see he has to leave Frodo to it. ‘Go to Minas Tirith and save my people!’ And Aragorn eventually does!
@TolkienLorePodcast
@TolkienLorePodcast 2 ай бұрын
In fairness, Rohan wasn’t the only concern-there was also Isengard.
@istari0
@istari0 2 ай бұрын
The bigger concern was really Saruman, who was already known to be a traitor. And the reality at that time was that Saruman, if not controlling Rohan, had a major influence on what was going on in the kingdom through what he and Wormtongue had done to Théoden. So, Boromir really didn't know what was going on in Rohan.
@David.Bowman.
@David.Bowman. 2 ай бұрын
@@TolkienLorePodcast @istari0 lol yes I am being a touch facetious. I’m exploring looking at things from different angles and seeing if there’s anything interesting. The idea comes from the legend of Thomas the Rhymer and other tales that have three paths: the easiest looking path leads to the Devil, the hardest path leads to heaven, and the third path leads to the land of Fairy. I assume the land of Fairy is somewhat neutral, though it may divert you from the path to heaven. So it’s fun to try and apply this and think of alternative ways the Fellowship might have handled things. And though we have a situation where Aragorn and Gandalf have different ideas, there was third path potentially, which we shall never know to be better or worse!
@maryc5759
@maryc5759 2 ай бұрын
Parsley sage rosemary and thyme
@daveperryman291
@daveperryman291 Ай бұрын
Excellent topic. I may add that another aspect to consider was that, if Gandalf was overcome by the darkness l, what chance did he have?
@istari0
@istari0 2 ай бұрын
I think it was simply that Aragorn had expected to be Gandalf's 2nd through at least much of the journey of the Fellowship. When he was abruptly thrust into the role of party leader and no longer had Gandalf's sage counsel to rely on, he was simply thrown off his stride to some degree. He still managed to get the survivors off the Misty Mountains and into Lothlórien without any further encounters until they reached the Elves.. Once they left Lothlórien, it was Boromir's tragic attempt to seize the Ring that led to the splitting of the Fellowship.
@micklumsden3956
@micklumsden3956 29 күн бұрын
Strider thrown off his stride……..
@geoffsokoll-oh1gq
@geoffsokoll-oh1gq 2 ай бұрын
It strikes me that Gandalf, in some ways, hinders Aragorn as much as he helps him. Remember, Aragorn is an experienced general, an adirmal, an experienced leader of large number of me. If he's not sure of what to do, it seems to me that the question is do I go to Gondor lead their army or do I help Frodo though the mountains of Mordor? Denethor long ago had begun to figure out who he is, and doesn't seem too pleased about it. Maybe that's the real problem that Gandalf's loss presents is does he go to Minas Tirith and face the probable hostility of the current ruler or operate out of sight to guide the ring bearer. In the end Gandalf's return changes the equation, in that he faces off with Denethor a scene Aragorn never has to.
@otaku-sempai2197
@otaku-sempai2197 2 ай бұрын
The answers to your questions about Aragorn's age are in LotR, Appendix B "The Tale of Years". 2931...Aragorn son of Arathorn II born on March 1st. 2951...Elrond reveals to 'Estel' his true his true name and ancestry, and delivers to him the shards of Narsil. Arwen, newly returned from Lorien, meets Aragorn in the woods of Imladris. Aragorn goes out into the Wild [Aragaorn is 20 years old]. 2956...Aragorn meets Gandalf and their friendship begins [25th year since Aragorn's birth]. 3018 - September 29...Frodo reaches Bree at night [Aragorn is 87]. 3019 - March 1...Aragorn meets Gandalf the White. They set out for Edoras ]Aragorn's 88th birthday]. - May 1...The crowning of King Elessar. - June 25...King Elessar finds the sapling of the White Tree. - Mid-year's Day...Wedding of Elessar and Arwen. As we've previously discussed, the dates and years within the film canon are more debatable. Aragorn is likely either 25 or 26 years old (rather than a boy of 10) when the Battle of Five Armies takes place. Aragorn tells Arwen that he is 87 during the march to Helm's Deep, but we don't know the precise date when this takes place (or whether the passing of Aragorn's birthday slipped his mind). Because of this, we do not know whether film-Aragorn was 86 or 87 years old when Frodo met him in Bree.
@gang-ridertv5433
@gang-ridertv5433 2 ай бұрын
The return for the darknight of aragon.
@enriqueparodiYT1
@enriqueparodiYT1 2 ай бұрын
Gandalf got killed in Moria, but ultimately this made him stronger and helped him fulfill his mission.
@MS-ho9wq
@MS-ho9wq 2 ай бұрын
What kills you makes you strongerer lol
@andreaswojtylo7167
@andreaswojtylo7167 2 ай бұрын
I have the almost exact same shirt 😄
@Enerdhil
@Enerdhil 2 ай бұрын
Procrastinating was another character flaw that Aragorn developed due to his lack of confidence in his own judgment.
@RamBear88
@RamBear88 2 ай бұрын
Got an example of that? Very interesting concept. I always loved that he’s literally THAT guy and he’s running around nervous 😂
@Enerdhil
@Enerdhil 2 ай бұрын
@@RamBear88 Aragorn's indecision about what to do from the "death" of Gandalf until the catastrophe of Parth Galen is a clear example of procrastination.🙄 He let events make his decisions instead of being proactive like a great leader should be.
@istari0
@istari0 2 ай бұрын
@@Enerdhil I don't know about that. Sometimes making a decision too early can lead someone to ignore new information that would support a different decision. The Fellowship was never all bound to go with Frodo all the way to Mordor and Gandalf never told anyone what eventual plan he had. I suspect Gandalf's plan was to get to Lothlórien and figure out their next move then.
@Enerdhil
@Enerdhil 2 ай бұрын
@@istari0 All that is true, but I think as soon as Aragorn had it in his mind that he had a lot of time to float down the river before he had to make a final decision, he procrastinated (by definition). If he had made a plan before they got to Parth Galen and then had to change it because of the events that occurred, I would have been okay with Aragorn making a mistake and then adjusting to it, which is what leaders are supposed to do. He took a vacation from decision-making, one definition of procrastinating. It is a character flaw for a leader.
@micklumsden3956
@micklumsden3956 29 күн бұрын
Of course, Aragorn is not perfect. But there’s no point in making a decision before you have two - whether he was going with Frodo to Mordor, or to Minas Tirith, the best route was down the river.
@David.Bowman.
@David.Bowman. 2 ай бұрын
I hope the outfit gets more and more detailed as the year goes on, like being taught by Finrod, with a harp intro and everything.
@TolkienLorePodcast
@TolkienLorePodcast 2 ай бұрын
lol no, I do have pants and a belt and boots to go with but the camera angle is a bit high for that lol.
@David.Bowman.
@David.Bowman. 2 ай бұрын
@@TolkienLorePodcast lol well if you ever feel like bringing a different aesthetic to the channel, I haven’t seen anyone mix cosplay with genuine analysis!
@margaretalbrecht4650
@margaretalbrecht4650 2 ай бұрын
About the route. Once I got the Atlas to Middle Earth, I thought I would have crossed the mountains in the north (like Thorin and Company did) and take the river all the way down to Lorien where we could restock, then take the boats (portaging down the falls) to Ithilien. Would have made for a very different book.
@istari0
@istari0 2 ай бұрын
I concluded some time ago that they didn't take that route because that was the principal road across the Misty Mountains and the one most likely heavily watched by spies of Sauron and Saruman.
@edwardbarach2263
@edwardbarach2263 2 ай бұрын
I believe that the pass near Rivendell was not used because it was obvious and watched. This was a stealth mission.
@margaretalbrecht4650
@margaretalbrecht4650 2 ай бұрын
@@edwardbarach2263 I don't think so. No more than anywhere else. The Nazgul hadn't been remounted. And they can just travel at night. It makes sense logistically. But not dramatically.
@margaretalbrecht4650
@margaretalbrecht4650 2 ай бұрын
@@istari0 And I concluded some time ago that they didn't take that route because it would have made for a much less exciting story. And this is fiction.
@jingjong3684
@jingjong3684 2 ай бұрын
You forget that the road that Thorin and his company took passed close to Mount Gundabad. Also remember Dol Guldur. It's said numerous times in lotr that Dol Guldur is inhabited again and once that it's with power 7 fold. Let's also not forget the coldfells and the ettenmoors which are troll country.
@danithefoot633
@danithefoot633 2 ай бұрын
Aragorn is the man every man should strive to be
@micklumsden3956
@micklumsden3956 29 күн бұрын
Yes and no. Yes, embrace destiny and mercy. But we cannot all be the returning king. To me it’s Boromir who we should aspire to emulate - we know that we will fall and fail, but then we get up and go on; failure is not the end
@stevemonkey6666
@stevemonkey6666 2 ай бұрын
Maybe making Aragon dependent on him is a side-effect of Gandalf having one of the Elven rings?
@istari0
@istari0 2 ай бұрын
Narya's powers were about inspiring people to resist despair and domination and give heart to others. So, I don't think they would have made him dependent on it.
@Crafty_Spirit
@Crafty_Spirit 2 ай бұрын
​@@istari0 If you get used to an external source of support you can quicky and without realising it grow a mental dependency on it. @Steve That is a very interesting idea
@istari0
@istari0 2 ай бұрын
@@Crafty_Spirit Aragorn wasn't relying on the ring; he was relying on Gandalf. Any effect Narya had was indirect.
@Enerdhil
@Enerdhil 2 ай бұрын
Got here early.😁
@alexiskeith8909
@alexiskeith8909 Ай бұрын
trying to figure out this dudes accent
@TolkienLorePodcast
@TolkienLorePodcast Ай бұрын
It’s probably not totally native anymore lol.
@doop2541
@doop2541 2 ай бұрын
I disagree--your shirt has seams and needlework. ;) Also, I think the ability to recognize and try to correct your mistakes is the mark of a great leader. Humility, as one commenter pointed out already. As for procrastinating on his decision of Mordor vs Minas Tirith--it was sort of a trolley dilemma, wasn't it?
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