Wasn't culturally marxist enough for him, it seems.

Good day, how do you pronounce " meldonya " in elvish , meaning my friend...thanks 😊

kzfaq.info/get/bejne/iZaHoJOq3raoc40.htmlsi=Qhz6uqEtvlZicMn_ Bishop Barron about LOTR and how good it is.

The 1981 BBC Radio 4 version ran for 26 episodes - about the correct length of time to let the thing breathe. I was appalled to hear that there was an abridged version. Even the 1981 version left out Tom Bombadil. I have long hoped that some newly discovered JRR Tolkien document will reveal that Tom Bombadil is "absolutely crucial" to the story. Its absence did reduce the element of Jethro Tull-ish Earth magic in the radio version. That reminds me of some TV show which mishandled the Earth magic element of the books on which it was based. I think it was...no, I can't quite recall it...almost had it there. I say, the weather's a bit cold for July.

I don't see why the idea that Sauron, as a Maiar, could simply carry the ring with him in spirit form away from Numenor, is hard to grasp. That's always seemed what he did based on the text. Every death caused a diminishment and lessening of power so the shock of his next death in the War of the Last Alliance and subsequent loss of power, prevented him carrying the ring off. Given how much Sauron coveted the Ring, I don't agree with the idea that Sauron would voluntarily leave the Ring in Middle Earth or ever willingly separate himself from it. I also believe the Ring enhanced Sauron's native strength as well as providing domination of the other Rings of Power. I don't see why it couldn't be both.

My take is that orcs probably came from multiple sources. There was some unknown humanoid species that Morgoth corrupted and bred with the handful of corrupted elves he had, which over time created an entirely new life form, one that while maybe having some elf blood, was no longer an elf and did not have a fea. Later on, men were corrupted and added two the mix as well as some fallen Maiar who took the form of orcs. By the time we get to the 3rd Age none of the orcs currently alive were elves. Their ancestors were probably, but they are entirely their own thing and more closely resemble men.

I've also heard the theory that Beorn did use some form of magic that shape shift, and it was taught to him by Radagast. Personally, I think it was more just a power native to Beorn. A maiar connection is certainly also possible.

Drax: Why is Gamora? Celeborn: Where is Gandalf??

why would someone compare something written in the 1930's to something now?

I know there are points in the book where Bilbo wonders whether Gandalf guessed that he'd found a ring, but I think the cartoon tried to make it a little too obvious.

I believe that "Saruman" was always an apocryphal name. He would have been called Curunir, Sharkey, or something else in his time. I suspect "Saruman" is just a bastardization of Sauron's man.

Sauron's gambit, which almost succeeds, is the Palantir. We don't know how he got one but he does have at least one. He corrupts Sauruman and Denethor who possess one each from Orthanc and Minas Tirith through his. He probably didn't expect to take such immense citadels without that advantage, but obviously he is confounded by the Fellowship.

It isn't just that Turin makes bad choices, and if he was wiser there wouldn't have been a curse. His mother and sister also are cursed. Morgoth had a part and knowledge of the abilities of all the different Valar (and Maiar), but he turns turns them to evil purposes. Many of the Valar and Maiar are able to influence and prompt Elves and Men. Lorien is the master of visions and dreams. Ulmo speaks to everyone with music of water, although they may not understand it, they are drawn to it, and have a longing for the sea if they hear his horn play. Nienna brings strength to the spirit and turns sorrow to wisdom. Olorin the Maiar is able to give Elves and men fair visions or promptings of wisdom that he puts into their hearts. Those that listen to him awake from despair and put away the imaginations of darkness. So if the Valar and Maiar have power to influence for good, then Morgoth can influence for evil. When the Nazgul would fly overhead in the Lord of the Rings, people would have an unsettling feeling of fear and dread. In The Children of Hurin, this is a part of Morgoth's curse: "The shadow of my thought shall lie upon them wherever they go, and my hate shall pursue them to the ends of the world. Upon all whom you love my thought shall weigh as a cloud of Doom, and it shall bring them down into darkness and despair." Morgoth also called himself the Master of the fates in Arda, so he has some abilities to affect peoples fate in the world. But men don't belong to this world (they are called 'the guests'), and their ultimate fate lies beyond the circles of the world and in the end can be free from Morgoth. Morgoth's curse is a real thing, with him constantly using his influence to affect the mood, heart, thoughts, temperament and judgment of those he cursed. At the end of his life Turin said that he was "Blind, blind, groping since childhood in a dark mist of Morgoth!" It's not just a matter of Turin making bad decisions. About Finduilas standing between Turin and his fate. Remember that the mound where she was buried was beside Teiglin by the Crossings of Teiglin. When Turin was on his way to kill Glaurung, in between where he was and the ravine where he was going to attack the dragon was the mound. In the Children of Hurin he says "Haudh-en-Elleth! Does Finduilas lie still between me and my doom?" What Gwindor said to Turin might have more than one meaning, and in this sense Finduilas was physically in between him and his doom.

This whole conversation seems so foreign to me as a northern european. Just enjoy the stories😅

I'll just add Faramir's words when discussing his vision of Boromir's funeral boat with Frodo in Ithilien: "Whether he erred or no, of this I am sure: he died well, achieving some great thing. His face was more beautiful even than in life."

Don't laugh, but when I first read LOTR at the tender age of 12, I got Sauron and Saruman confused myself.

Once he started moving armies of his brand of orcs around the cat was out of the bag.

With a map or not, Sauron was certainly aware of the existance of the Great East-West Road, along with the others. And common sense says a healthy community must be connected to the outside world by some physical links. He knows from Gollum it is in Eriador as I think Bilbo mentioned to Gollum that he hails from West of the Mountains. I think he should have had little trouble finding the Shire via the Palantir. Just follow the roads. See where they lead and end.

I always found it odd that the ents could not damage Orthanc. Sure the Numenoreans had special skill in construction. Likely even rivaling what the elves were capable of. But I just figured that the power of Nature as represented by the ents would outrank the works of Men.

Arumaaaaan!!!

As soon as I saw Saruman was Dracula and Count Dooku, I started to have my doubts about him.

It was politically incorrect to mention Saruman's orcs. "Hey, Gondorian friend, have you noticed those, uh, people who have moved into Saruman's yard? They're really trashing the place. Wantonly cutting down trees, looting, setting fires, etc." "Well, Rohirrim friend, are you mentioning that because the color of their skin and their fangs and pointy ears?" "No no, do not take it that way! I am a good and tolerant person. Perhaps it is me who is evil and Saruman's guests are simply expressing their culture. I shall speak no more on this matter."

I do feel Grima being more in cahoots with Saruman such that he's done 'something' to allow the Many Colors to 'possess' Theoden was a much stronger scene in the movie than the book where Theoden is mostly just an old king but literally magically comes around to Gandalf's side through more than some subtle magic. It makes it feel like Saruman has been working on subverting Rohan a lot longer in the movie than the book. It also makes Theoden's grief at Theodred's death a lot more poignant and his anger at Grima and Saruman a lot more 'real' while the book doesn't emphasize that outside of the succession planning for better and worse. So probably agree to disagree on this particular scene.

I have been convinced for years that saruman and sauron were the same character that were split when the story changed from being about an order of wizards to what we see in the final story.

Very good, melon Geek. I'd be interested to hear about Saruman's dealings with those who interacted with him. How did he fool his neighbors who came to his tower for advice? How did he fool the Nazgul? These and other considerations may not have come out in a meme, but they are intriguing to think about. Namarie.

To be fair someone could have read the book, never seen the movie and had similar questions. Saruman and Sauron are similar enough that I could see a casual reader confusing them. You also had to go into quite a lot of depth to explain away the orc pit. (Still, I do think you're right otherwise it gets a bit silly.)

Nice deconstruction

TBF in the Jackson Trilogy when Gandalf arrives in Isengard the woodland around Orthanc is still relatively intact at least around the main pathways and its only after Saruman imprisons Gandalf that any sense of stealth or concealment is dropped for maximum uruk production. In the book Saruman has been known to Treebeard as a despoiler of Fangorn for a long time when he talks about it to Merry and Pippin.

Also, outside of the movie, there's a question about which towers are the actual two towers. That's another way the movie supports the meme.

When I was a kid reading the books and watching the movies, I always felt that the names "Saruman" and "Sauron" were just too similar to each other. Like, what the hell? You made this all up. Make the names more distinct so you don't look dumb.

Yeah, this was good! I'd watch more meme analyses!

10:48 15 cm per step * 3000 = 450 meters. Is 3000 "many thousand"?

Thanks for sharing your passion for LOTR. You remind me of my friend. Zach I had went to school with who was big in LOTR too. I saw the movies before reading the books and definitely noticed it’s a lot more descriptive and a slower pace of story reading the books. It took 3 months to read, reading for 30 to 60 minutes a day. I think it could have been 6 to 9 films if everything from the books was put into film form. I’m going to rewatch the 70’s cartoon versions again.

Given that average step height is about 17cm means that you would climb around 170 meters every 1000 steps. Gandalf saying "many thousands steps" makes the Orthank tower taller than the tower of Dubai.

There is a relatively short video about Tomkien naming characters and places in the legendarium that I found rather funny. Have any of you seen it?

While I get that the books are not saying that Saruman was already obviously evil, I still find it significant that consistently no one (outside of Rohan) finds Saruman’s corruption to be a surprise. Gwaihir not only believes Gandalf’s claim of unjust imprisonment but does not even bother to hear Saruman’s side of the story (which presumably would be readily available downstairs). For all Gwaihir actually knows at that point, Gandalf is the one who turned evil, and Saruman is having to detain Gandalf accordingly. This continues in Rivendell, where everyone (including Boromir) seems to accept Gandalf’s claims about Saruman without any corroboration. Not only that, but no elf-despite working with Saruman for hundreds of years-even expresses a sense of personal shock or confusion. The news does not seem that surprising. No one even has a middle-ground reaction-such as proposing that miscommunication had occurred, that Gandalf had overreacted, or that persuasion could bring Saruman back to their side. The same goes for the Lothlorien elves and the ents. Even Denethor (who I guess would still see himself at least nominally as Saruman’s superior) displays no reaction. Furthermore, there seems to be an arms-length relationship with Saruman that goes back a ways. Gandalf explicitly says that he had decided not to include Saruman in the monitoring of Bilbo. Also, despite the fact that the White Council recognized Saruman as a ring expert and the fact that bearers of the Three Rings were in the White Council, Saruman seems to have played no role with those rings. For all these reasons, I feel the books do imply that while Saruman did hide the magnitude of his corruption, his allies already had reservations about and took precautions around him.

What if there had been visible evidence of the industrialisation of Isengard? Saruman is or was a Maia of Aulë and would naturally incline towards industry and artifice as means to combat the Enemy. Witness his intense study of Ring-lore. If Gandalf had spotted something of the sort in the gloom on his way to Orthanc, he might have made a mental note to mention it, along the lines of "Hey, Curumo old dude, you know we're not supposed to fight Sauron directly, right? What's all this forge and pit nonsense in aid of?" But in the event it was all moot anyway.

.... And it isn't as if everyone in The Lord of the Rings books has a similar name to many other people..... 🤔

In the movie Treebeard and the Ents totally miss that thousands and thousands of acres of forest have been knocked down. Maybe no one just noticed a whole army of Orcs hanging around

"Just How Ludicrously Comically Obviously Clearly Evil was Grima Wormtongue?"

The movies didn't really show saruons use of his fortress . I wish besides the gollum torture scene. You really never get a look inside the dark tower

I think that was posted on 4chan. lol

Who were Saruman’s servants? Unlike Gandalf, who was often traveling, Saruman remained in a single place. Someone else had to provide him food and clean clothes, take care of the keep, serve as guards. Who were they? Evil Gondorians? They couldn’t have been orcs, or else Gandalf would have realized his treachery much earlier, obviously.

First!

Authorial intent. The human mind manages to twist the most beautiful texts into the ugliest pamphlets. There is of course of a variance how well an idea is realised, but with the "death of the author" you could interpret a thriller where the psychopath gets away or even wins in the end as condoning this type of behaviour. IMO it's a tool to get new perspectives on a piece of work, but it can really get over the top.

Robin Williams tho

*The Choices Of Master Samwise* Aragorn was aware his choice was coming, miles ahead the fellowship discussed it, even before the mess with the Orcs and the death of Boromir. Sam, on the other hand, was caught in the middle in the events and was forced to make a decision on his own. Of course he checked Frodo's breath and heartbeat after untangling him from Shelpb's webs. Since nobody else was there Tolkien conveys us Sam's inner conflict by the means of an _inner dialogue._ Is this only Sam talking to himself or is there maybe a divine force included which convinces him to taking the ring? You see, in his fight against Shelob he already had divine help, he spoke words in a language he didn't know to unleash the powers of Galadriel's Phial to force the ugly spider into a retreat. I'm not sure of it, taking the ring was definitely the best practical decision Sam could make in this situation. But the way this inner dialogue is worded I suspect he had some divine help, take a look at this: *"What? Me, alone, go to the Crack of Doom and all?" He quailed still, but the resolve grew. "What? **_Me_** taking the Ring for **_him?_** The Council gave it to him."* *But the answer came at once: "And the Council gave him companions, so that the errand should not fail. And you are the last of all the Company. The errand must not fail."* "But the answer came at once…" On Sam's own reflections or by divine intuition? What do you think?

Interesting topic, thanks for bringing this up! I've re-read those passages in the books for the first time since like ~25 years to check those out. Both choices were crucial but quite different how they were described. Aragorn had pretty much made up his mind _before_ Frodo took the decision to leave on its own, caused by Boromir's outrage. When they discussed the possibility Frodo would decide to go straight to Mordor in his absence, he said: *"It would be indeed a betrayal, if we all left him," said Aragorn, "but if he goes east, then all need not go with him; nor do I think that all should. That venture is desperate: as much so for eight as for three or two, or one alone. If you would let me choose, then I should appoint three companions: Sam, who could not bear it otherwise; and Gimli; and myself."* The conjunctive "If you let me choose…" isn't politeness, it's foreshadowing. After all the mess with the Orcs, Boromir's death and departure we read following decision: *"Let me think!" said Aragorn. "And now may I make a right choice and change the fate of this unhappy day!" He stood silent for a moment. "I will follow the Orcs," he said at last. "I would have guided Frodo to Mordor and gone to with him to the end; but if I seek him now in the wilderness, I must abandon the captives to torment and and death. My heart speaks clearly at last: the fate of the Bearer is in my hands no longer. The Company has played its part."* Immediately before this we can read Aragorn's motif for his decision: *"He [=Frodo] fled, certainly," said Aragorn, "but not, I think, from Orcs." What he thought was the cause of Frodo's sudden resolve and sudden flight Aragorn did not say. The last words of Boromir he long kept secret.* The last words of Boromir were his confession to having tried to take the ring from Frodo by force. This leads me to the interpretation that Aragorn feared that others might come into the influence of the ring - maybe even himself. Aragorn respected that the decision is ultimately in Frodo's hands, and it was clear that his choice was to leave them behind, that's what he meant by saying "the fate of the Bearer is in my hand no longer". Sam's choice is a completely different cup of tea and needs another posting on its own. What do you think of my interpretation of Aragorn's choice?

I think the story of Numenor is fascinating. But in this book there is a LOT of stuff I've already read and would've not necessarily want to read again: For example the story of Aldarion and Erendis which is in my opinion the most annoying and boring story in Tolkien legendarium.

On the point of the lack of agency of Merry and Pippin: the film messes up the beginning of the story. In the book, Merry, Pippin, Sam, and Fatty Bolger are “the conspirators”. They actively decide to escort Frodo on his journey. Fatty’s (active) role is to stay behind to pretend that Frodo has not left the Shire. And then he has two (actively) counter the Nazgûl - raising the Shire against them. That’s from the very beginning, we see the agency the hobbits have. Remember also the Council of Elrond. Each of the hobbits choose to go on the quest.