I think the reason they used to put boring themes on Euro games was to differentiate them from other types of games and make them more identifiable. At one time these were a new type of games and I think designers wanted to make it clear these are not rpgs, these are not war games, these are not kids games, these are not traditional family games. So they chose themes that made them immediately identifiable as fitting in this new category. That being said, there really isn't much reason to have those boring themes anymore. Now it is just more of a tradition than anything else.

I have this friend, that hates sci-fi themes, and only half tolerates fantasy. On the other hand, he loves these dull medieval religious themes, and raves about industrial ones (brass, Nippon, etc). To top it all, his favorite games are train games. I think he's your total opposite Luke haha. I have similar likes as yours, so I find it pretty hard to play with him haha.

I was thinking about your stance on elitism and to me I see it two different ways. First, the stance on creators being elitist and not interacting with their fans, etc. I see that their standoffish stance is likely out of self-preservation. The more people that you have watching/supporting you and your endeavors, the more taxing it is on your time. Therefore your time becomes more valuable and more requested. Plus if you have a family and you are being asked to travel to these conventions and such you would have to be careful to choose what is going to make the most sense. In addition, I saw a comment below about the creators at conventions huddling together apart from the rest of the masses. I challenge ourselves to think about it differently. These people see thousands of faces and are expected to make light conversation with random people all throughout the event. If you see people that you know, and perhaps have a shared bond with at the event wouldn't you gravitate towards these individuals for more meaningful dialogue? All in all for the "stars" of boardgaming, I see nothing wrong with what you view as elitism....for those that I do though....My second point is that where I do see unwarranted elitism is at the local level. Having gone to several local conventions I always laugh at the peacocks that strut through their local gaming scenes like they are deities. Those that I saw were usually people that sell some type of product or are local board game store owners. It is funny because those type of individuals are the most known in their boardgaming community, but the fact of the matter is, once the gaming event is complete and we all go back to our lives, they are a nobody once again.

Number 9 is real. When I first started watching reviews 10 years ago it seemed like everyone doing reviews were just normal people who liked board games. Now the bigger channels it seems like the hosts are "acting". You can tell they are enjoying their pseudo celebrity status. Love marcoomnigamer.

Ok, I'm posting a lot, but just have to say I loved the video. :D Lots of good stuff and wow, you spent a lot of energy there!

Great video ...great rant ...um I mean discussion LOL. All jokes aside I think you raise and discuss some great points here. One I really agree on is when they shove every mechanic just because they can with out it adding and driving the theme and progression of the game itself. I also LOATHE bad box design especially when they include 100 pieces but only space for only 20 when you unpack and punch all the pieces form the board inserts.

44:43 -- "I do not like them in a box. I do not like them with a fox. I do not like them in a house. I do not like them with a mouse. I do not like green eggs and ham. I do not like them, Sam-I-am!" LOL

I mainly agree with your list ... and your #1 choice made me laugh! 😊 Great job on that top 10 list.

Worth staying up for, good rant with many good points

I completely agree with your opinion on length of play on the box... I basically say rule of thumb add 1 hour to game length in most games to include setup, teaching, analysis paralysis and game play. Player count is also a huge issue as a lot of games say they are playable to 2 but in reality the game is awful at 2 but shines at 3-4 and if it's 2-5 players typically stick with 3-4 and 5 is just too long or breaks the game. Their need to try to misinform to sell to more people drives me nuts as well. I also agree with the rule book issues.

Thank you! I laughed and laughed and laughed. I like long dull euro games, I like Splotter. I like trading in the Mediterranean. And I have 30+ train games. Still I laughed and laughed. Maybe it was the mirror you showed me. Maybe it was just seeing the view of somebody else. Keep up the good work and stay sane!

I'm not experienced enough with the hobby to say anything interesting, so I'll just say: love the choice of thumbnail! 10 Things I Hate About You is my favorite teen romcom. I saw it when I was a young teen, and I tentatively recommended my husband to watch it a few years ago, worried I loved it for nostalgia more than anything--but he thought it was great even though it was nearly 20 years after it was made, and he's not the type to like romcoms at all.

What gets me is when a publisher sells card sleeves to go with a game and then the sleeved cards won't fit in the insert.

Love your lists man.

Loved your rant on train games, so funny. I must admit I enjoyed 1862 recently but I do prefer SPACE HULK!

I love the point about misleading player count and time lengths. I'd love to see set up time added on, and an indication of play time at different player counts. Some games take a certain time plus a certain extra per player. Some just vary in time length because of in game factors rather than player count. And an indication of the player counts it works best at would be amazing. But then again, that's usually why I look info up online before playing a game.

Thanks for the shirt though, I was jealous because NONE of my shirts have zippers. Zippers are a BICEPS thing.

One game which forces you to be silly is Ravine. Worse yet, you can't play it with strangers because some cards require you to touch other players.

Get with it, Luke. The Railways of the World series is fantastic. Age of Steam with more gameplay flexibility. Very playable, interesting network building.

“It’s just not funny.” I was really hoping you’d use the Monty Python “That’sch not funnay!” clip from the “killer joke” sketch. 😉

The first thing I thought of when I saw the title of your top ten was Analysis Paralysis. I'm surprised that it isn't there.

You know I joke with you about not liking some games but I have to agree with you on the deck building in Great Western Trail... that said, I still LOVE that game. But you are 100% correct. It makes zero thematic sense. The hand building in Concordia would have made more sense. I had to put concordia in this comment somewhere haha

I have never understood that stupid Splotter quote either. If you can lose the game on the first turn, then why can't you win the game on the first turn? I don't mean set yourself up to win the game after three hours. I mean why not make the game so someone can end the game on the first turn and save us all a bunch of time. Why not? Games are supposed to be fun and competitive. Making a game where you can't win after making one poor decision is not fun. Sure someone can score a goal in the first minute of a football match and that might be the winning goal but the other team can still score and tie it up. Not only that but the losing team can employ tactics that will better their chance of scoring that goal even if those tactics may leave them more vulnerable. If you design a game that gives the players no avenue to make a comeback after an early game error then I feel you have left one of the most important elements out of your game.

Good video! But I love Concordia 😂

Have you played Railways of the World? I didn’t hear you mention it. There’s no investment or stocks, basically just route building and pick up and deliver. Really solid.

#10 Comes down to money. If you can appeal to a broader audience by putting as many mechanics in a game you will get more sales. #7 The bigger the box the bigger the shelf presence and the more chance their game will be picked instead of their competitors. #6 I think the innovation pool is practically empty I heard the ManVsMeeple team some months ago getting all excited about a new innovative game that was essentially based around a child’s pop-up book! #5 Can be a big problem which is why my favourite mechanic is hidden scoring. #4 Covered this in your podcast and it’s all valid, as you say, it’s all about sales. #3 The bug bare for nearly all gamers. KS funded games tend to be the biggest offenders. You pays your money, wait 12 months for it to arrive only to find it’s unplayable because of a naff rules books. #2 The saying, never judge a book by its cover could also apply to board games cover art. If it looks boring on the front and even more boring on the back I ain’t buying it. Any game that mimics hum drum life is no fun, I play board games as a form of escapism. #1 Well, say no more, all train games fall into #2 as far as I am concerned. Nice one Luke, look forward to the next top ten.

I think empyreal would be the one train game I’d like in my collection (if it weren’t for the solo being in a $50 expansion, kickstarter exclusives, and the coffin it takes to hold all that) it’s an Age of steam style network builder/pick up and deliver, with a tableau of variable player powers that let you do some wonky things more in line with a magic theme. I think maybe the whole Mario style “all our characters are doing all the professions for all of our Games” theme is kind of targeted for fans of the company, but mechanically it does feel like a bunch of mages just got done fighting and teaching magic and are now running Railroad companies.

The rulebook of Mage Knight the Board Game... The game is really great, but the rulebook is just crazy...

gmt has the decimal system "rulebook" but it served its purpose i think. some of their games have "scenario books" that teaches you how to play the game step by step. and i think the meaning of your boring theme is "history theme". hahaha.

About your no10 I feel the same, but there is one game that works and does that. Taverns of Thiefenthal. i love that people visiting your pub are random. You don't know who will come 😁

I'm 100% with you on games that force you to be silly. In a similar vein, I'm not a fan on games that require you to be an extrovert to be able to play - games where you have to come up with a creative sales pitch. A good party game should provide space for you to find your own moment of hilarity rather than try and force them out of you.

Great list here with a good number of points I agree with, particularly number 3. The rulebook is the one hurdle players have to overcome in order to know how to play. The best board game in the world is reduced to expensive bits of cardboard and plastic if the rules are poorly written and laid out. Aftermath is a recent purchase and the rulebook is a joke. It is dire. I'll battle my way through it, but Plaid Hat Games have not made it easy. Unfortunately, they're not alone here. It's just unacceptable. I also agree totally with number 9. Some people think they're pretty special. They are not. Also, Train of Death gets my vote. 😂

Huh, I knew you hated GWT, but didn't realize (or remember) the deck building aspect was so important. I find it interesting because I find that there are a ton of ways to help with what you have in your hand by the time you go to Kansas. There's deck thinning, there are a lot of actions that allow you to discard cards, others that let you draw & discard etc. Also some of the strategies focus on stuff other than cows, so the deck is small enough to be controllable. I think thematically a lot of mechanisms don't make sense in GWT, but from a strategic point of view it doesn't feel like a problem.

The side deck building vitriol is such a weirdly strong take, it’s innovation man! People trying to incorporate proven mechanics to try to do something a little different

Oddly, many of the gamers in my local group will buy a game based on 2 factors... trains and boring beige art.

Ha, your train games is my zombies. Although I'm also pretty intolerant of trite fantasy themes, but that's probably more down to oversaturation.

About 7th place: it is not a "laziness" of them leading to choose a wrong box size. From the merchandise point of view, all the big boxes like Gloomhaven are located at the top shelves in every store because they are bough pretty rarely. Next, we have small boxes with filler types of games, which are not generate much income, though, their marginality is low. And the rest - the middle sized boxes - are located in front of you, in your plain sight, they are the most profitable. And that's why the air is in these boxes. Unfortunately, they do it on purpose.

Those dinky Garphill boxes are the worst. That company is a slave to form.

Concordia's theme is more interesting than something, woohoo! :D

Also that first turn rule isn’t synonymous with all splotter games. Bus and Cannes do not suffer from this problem

Nice insight

I liked your point about elitism because it is true and I noticed that at Essen but I think it's a natural thing: attention does something to people and it isn't always a good thing. I saw Tom Vasel in Essen and I found him to be very arrogant while Victor Lacerda, one of the greatest boardgamedesigners, was very down to earth and very easy to talk to.

#2 Boring themes - far too subjective. Pasted on themes - yep, they suck. Themes that are done to death - I get that. But boring themes didn't make sense to me particularly with some of the examples you gave. Wingspan - I love that it is a theme that hasn't been touched before. But it's about bird watching. I struggle to think of anything less interesting than bird watching. But the theme holds up in this game and it's unique so I think they got the mark. Zombies - not a boring theme, but there's so many games out there about zombies that I won't even look at a game with that theme. I love the historically set themes, as long as they hold through the game.

Preach, brother! Preach!!!

Good video overall but I want to say that your #6 (Lack of Innovation) had a very strong "cult of the new" smell to it. I don't particularly care if a game does something new, rather I care if it does it well. That will almost certainly involve using existing, tried-and-true mechanics and themes, albeit in a superior way compared to its competitors.

I agree with your number 9, I am even more tiny of a content creator than you. But I do see that larger content creators tend to be full of themselves. Thanks for the video, you do an awesome job.

Have you played Russian Railroads or Railroad Revolution? Just asking because you haven't mentioned them as negative examples and they are actually enjoyable euros.

Doesn't tainted grail have deck building? Just playing devil's advocate :P Also, hard disagree on the theme point, I take medieval/renaissance/historical themes over generic fantasy or sci fi any day, in fact I think the board of Lorenzo il Magnifico is beautiful :P Good rant tho have a good one!

I like the list but #9 just kinda sounds a little like salt tbh mate. I personally don't think reviewers should recieve free invites, review copies, etc, period, because (ad revenue aside) channels would actually fulfil the facade of being altruistic and "for the people." As things are, you can only keep doing the great job you are doing, being engaging, etc, and hope that rewards in the form of copies/industry recognition/etc follow. For what it's worth, I do agree with you that channel elitism is an issue - and I actively despise some of the 'major' (read: susd-lite-how-can-we-be-as-clickbait-contrarian-as-possible-before-forcing-our-paperthinskinnedopinions) channels - but I think it is fortunately rare. Youre a chill guy though, and you have a great channel; I've been tuning in for a long time

I agree with your number 9, elitism. I'm not sure if I'm willing to attributed to elitists, but it always bugs me when you go to a convention or watch a convention video and you see all the KZfaqrs/media people gather together to play games with each other. We don't want to see videos or hear about you guys Fanboying and over each other.

Intresting list. Not liking train games is on thing but calling them "The worst thing to come in to the board game industry" . The worst thing? really? Granted, I'm not particularly a huge fan of trains myself, but that dosen't mean they shouldn't exist. Ticket to ride for example was a huge success and introduced me and many others to modern board games. Anyways, keep up the good work

The only way we will see less games and especially less copycats is if people stop buying them. Even if sales for subpar games drop its still not a gauruntee that designers will start to inovate. I believe most publishers would rather go out of business than inovate. Just look at most buisness throughout history. They ended up failing becuase they wouldn't change.

Regarding the point of re-hashed themes it is done on purpose. Umpteenth game on vikings is safer to release than a new obscure theme.

im actually interested in deckbuilders with a bit more, a board and not just cards. havent found one yet, havent played GWT and that doesnt sound amazing...but i dont hate idea. I want to try El Dorado for instance. and clank isnt really a pure deckbuilder is it?bad anything is bad, ut i disagree this mecahnic cant be blended with other things well in theory.

I could not disagree with #10 more. Deck building was done right once with Dominion, and then there’s the cascade of pointless randomness that is every other deck-builder that comes after it. I almost never enjoy a game if it’s primarily a deck builder. When it’s just a side aspect, it sometimes works for me.

Your number 1 hated thing in gaming is Trains. Your number 1 essential game was Ticket to Ride. Feels like a contradiction. Except I completely agree with Ticket to Ride as one of the most essential games, and I think trains are a done to death theme that isn't very interesting in the first place and they all seem the same. Ticket to Ride just did it before most of the others in a highly accessible way. So I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy, that I agree with.

Re: #8 Silly games are good if they're in theme. The best example I can think of is Dr. Panic. You're acting like a buffoon, but you're simulating treating a patient in a hectic environment.

You are the 24 inch bicep BIG GUN celebrity

I need game inserts to fit sleeved cards.

Great video. 1. Why was there a picture of mage knight on the critics for deckbuilding ? 2. The trains 😛 .... it must be a trauma Luke. Ill send You one for your birthday 😁 .... one with hexes!

Elitism (or maybe I am just too big) is bad....I like content makers that reply and engage with the community

A year later... did you finally play Empyreal: Spells & Steam? Was it different or yet another "wonderful" (/sarcasm) train game? ;)

Comments :) 10. Yeah, deck building probably makes the game less thematic, but most of the time, it makes it a better game. 9. Agree. 8. Agree. 7. Agree. But I'm more bothered by the box being too small to fit the expansions that you know are coming. 6. Disagree somewhat. Having old mechanisms and combining them in new way can be good. But. having said that, even though I like Euro games, in the last several years only 1 Euro game has looked interesting to me (Agra), all the others seemed extremely boring and looked like I've seen them before. So I guess old Euro mechanisms are only good in Ameritrash games. :) PS. Wingspan 0 innovation. 5. Agree. The most egregious offender is A Game of Thrones - an 8 - 10 hour game and you can be eliminated in the 2nd round. 4, Agree - Those things are almost never correct. (but I wouldn't count the setup for play time since I always set up a game way before I play with other people) 3. Agree. And would add: REPETITION PLEASE! If a a rule is a part of movement, combat and what ever it NEEDES TO BE either REPEATED in each spot or attached with LOOK AT PAGE X FOR Y Caveat to your point: Mage Knight needed a longer rulebook and they just trimmed i down to 20 pages to be more appealing to people. 2. I like pasted on themes but agree that they need to be different. I personally find fantasy themes extremely boring because they're so many games with that theme and people like it so much. It's especially infuriating that people like fantasy over innovative themes. 1. I agree but I think it's a cultural thing. If you can trust the movies Americans play with trains A LOT and are so inclined to like train games.

Box information, and specifically player count, is indeed so annoying! Agricola with 5? Ha! I haven't played it yet, but saying Caverna plays with 1 to 7 players must be crazy. 7?! I think the only people who played it with 7 are still playing their first game...

“cow mechanic” 😆

I'm personally a big fan of well scripted and produced review videos, how to play videos and pretty much anything. I think taking the time to craft your message creates stronger material overall. Something unscripted works well only where there's been a decent amount of thought into what is going to be said first. I really don't like those videos where there's a group of guys talking about something and they've clearly not collectively discussed what points they need to get across. They tend to be rambling and considerably longer than they need to be.

10:00 I've had Sandy Petersen reply to me on BGG. I have found that the grognard community doesn't seem to have the elitism that you are talking about. It seems like all of them have met, talked to, and played with top designers such as Mark Harmon and Volko Ruhnke. I recently commented on a two year old KZfaq video and the Chief from Bonding with Board Games replied to my post, then to my reply to his reply within a day. 17:00 With regard to the box thing - I don't care about extra space so long as the box is a standard size. I think it is significantly less expensive to get a standard-sized box made. Also, room for expansions. I don't like when the box is not a standard size and far too empty (I'm thinking of Cultists of Cthulhu and Albion's Legacy). I also wish that card spaces in the inserts would be sized for sleeved cards. I think that enough people do that for everything that sleeved card sized inserts should be expected.

Panamax should have a horrible rulebook. I am happy that it was tought to me, because it's a good game.

Did you just say Britain has the most boring history ever? Pick up a book dude. Tut tut.

Still waiting for Training In The Mediterranean.

Number 7: pure marketing. You are more willing to spend big money in a larger box than in a smaller one. Even if 75% is air and plastic inserts.

I hate games with amazing potential that turn out to be barely playable due to a lack of playtesting. One game in particular comes to mind: Exodus Proxima Centauri. Or 'Twillight Imperium Light' as The Dice Tower called it....yeah its not. The middle part of the game, where the action selection takes place along with the research tree are really good, but somehow the designer thought it was a good idea to include two seperate bidding fases in a drawn out political phase. Even worse is the movement/ship combat phase: all players get to move their ships one move at the time. And the entire movement phase happens twice per round!! But if one player (red) gets his hyperdrives they can do whatever they want anyway so nothing the other players will do will matter. In final scoring you get VP's per tile where your ships are so RED will Always win if a player abuses his hyperdrives. You also only get VP's per destroyed ship if you win a battle, not only does this bring unbalance and an extreme amount of luck into the game; it actually encourages players to avoid combat alltogether, yay! Sorry for my rant, its almost over. But I was so excited to get this one to the table. However both times I played it we just had to stop halfway (3 hours + into the game) because it was way too slow. Terrible terrible game simply because the designer was too lazy to playtest it. He even admitted on forums that the factions (from the expansion) were not really balanced, but you should play it to enjoy the theme and not to win....uh huh.

39:17 Can someone make a good version of this game, please? I love bread.

Re your #2: You must know continental Europe (Germany, Italy, you name it) is chock full of religious zealots. Most of friggin' Europe is closed on Sundays, after all.

I just hate the vendetta-people. People can't just accept they don't like a game that is popular or vice-versa, and proceed to keep trying to educate those that have accepted it or enjoy it. For elitism, I really don't see it in big stations outside of people projecting. I mainly see it in small channels who think they are bigger or more influential than they are (i.e. BGG reviewers who try to educate everyone about why Wingspan is bad, etc.) I absolutely hate pseudo-knockout. It is why I stopped playing epic TI4-type competitive game. TI4 always has 1 player knocked out every round or two and just stuck losing slowly for hours. Last game I played, I did a hail mary to try and win the game at the end and people just complained I did kingmaking because I didn't go all-in to stop another player winning and not having any chance of winning myself. Unfortuantely, NSKN Games and Board and Dice have horrible rulebooks these days. Kickstarter is also lowering the quality even more.

Well, coal or med trading is quite boring theme but definitely much more interesting than dragons or zombies. When I see a new game with dragons or zombies... c'mon! Again? I'm 41 for f... sake, don't give me another teen fairytales, please!

The "deck building is completely pointless" in gwt. Haha what the heck?! Well it is your opinion... reminds me of the flat earthers. It's complete rubbish! Regardless, keep up the great work, fun content!

Probably my biggest hate is similar to your #9 about eliteism, but for me it relates to games. I hate when certain games and developers are treated as gospel to the gaming world. The leading example is probably Isaac Childres and Gloomhaven. People are already commenting that Frosthaven is the best game ever made, or at least the second best (with the other best being the other ‘Haven game)... just because it comes from their daddy Childres, and anyone that disagrees just doesn’t have a good taste in games. I would say that should just be fanboy-ism, but in our boardgaming hobby, it’s really gotten out of control.

Those little cards look familiar where are they from

Hehe, nice one.

Bollocks! British history is fascinating, celts, romans, vikings, grand armada, civil war?

A lazy box insert is the worst!!!! Why even put that cheap piece of folded cardboard in there ?!?

How about a realtime laundry folding game?

You were a bankrupted train baron in another life.

bést innovative euro game is always CGE's Alchemists

Cthulhu is less interesting than churches, popes, counts, inquisitors and medieval stuff.

How about a top ten of actual innovative kickstarters then? Must be doable 😇

For number 9, I’m assuming you are talking about SUSD. I haven’t noticed the elitism that you speak of, but I only engage with them in an online consumption format. I did get a very nice and personalized email (albeit after a period of time) from a former member. It seems you have had more personal interaction with them, care to elaborate?

Totally down with your hates (or rather, dislikes) -- No. 9 is one I have experienced a few times (and yes, I rarely get free games from publishers for review in The SPIRIT magazine, too!), and No. 7 I've seen plenty of, too. Would also agree with the lack of innovation for Wingspan - a decent game it may be, but it's certainly not innovative, imho - this just makes me feel there's an unwholesome 'incestuousness' in some corners of the publishing industry. And Nos. 3 and 4 - oh yes, completely with you 150% on those! Major disagreement with your No. 2 though, 'cos I do think there are some excellent Train-based games out there... but your rant did make me laugh out loud!

Concordia as an example?? 😈

Incidentally, Luke, one of the things one of my gaming mates has noticed at a lot of these bring'n'buy-type sales, is that games with KS exclusive stuff do not necessarily sell for much more than the ordinary, basic game versions. He's been going to these things for the last few years, and is convinced this is the case well over 90% of the time...

4th point, I hate it so much!!! Stop liying!!!

I hate Chinese New Year delays.

Zombie themes my god how many games which are pratically identical to each other.....What next Pandemic Zombies hahahaha

I ❤️ 💂‍♀️British💂🏽‍♂️history.

Obviously, you have never tried to take a train in the USA.

Regarding the scripting in reviews, Shut Up & Sit Downs reviews are certainly mostly scripted, but they are excellent. So it always depends on the quality.

Have to add to the theme part, dragons and knights and mages can be as boring as the churches and popes. However, as good as some games are (Concordia for example), the theme really drags them down a bit. Have to redesign the theme of my Concordia some time, rmediterranian trading is really boring.

#9. Couldn't agree more. The way these guys fall over D List Celebs. Maybe it makes them feel more important. Paula Demings top 10 with the DT was easily one of the worst I have seen. She added very little to the conversation and shows she really isn't that knowledgeable. Take away her script and there isn't much there. I stopped watching Chaz's content as well because even with a script, it's horrible. Plus he added that other pretentious twerp to his show. It's just a nope for me. You want to see more examples of elitist jerks, go to the DT comments during board game breakfast. All these content creators patting themselves on the back. If your not one of them, your nobody. BTW Luke, to your example, I met Tom Cruise on the set of Minority Report. He walked up to me as I was trying on the jetpacks and it was a warm and friendly experience. Way more approachable than some of these KZfaq personalities.

Mine: Heavy-handed political agendas embedded in the game. I could give a few examples, but don't want to start a back and forth argument here that hijacks the column.