hahaha

so true lmao

This! Hate that lame wannabe dude pretending to know stuff

😅

@@denisblack9897don't hate anyone man, the guy is responsible for countless kids getting into tech, people tend to sort out the educational "bugs" on the way up :)

His argumet was bugs are shallow .we have compliers for shallow bugs llm can gind not so shallow .he is not the brightest

​@@JosiahWarren Try that again with proper grammar chief.

He let his own kernel and dev community get destroyed. Screw him. RIP Linux

@@Ryochan7 Fun fact, fMRI studies show trolling has the same neural activation patterns as psychopaths thinking about torturing puppies; it's very specific, right down to the part where they vacillate between thinking it's their universal right, and that they're helping someone somehow

​@@alakani and some people who troll do not think about it at all. they're easier to deal with if we aren't ascribing beneficial qualities to them.

-Stockton Rush

it;s actually originally from William Paul Young, The Shack@@bartonfarnsworth7690

Understatement of the day, LOL.

hell of a motivational quote

that is also what a scammer wants from you. dont put everything that looks fancy in you mind kiddo.

And they actually comment their code 😂

@@SaintNathcomments are usually bad though but are good if you’re learning I suppose but they can be out of date and thus misleading

@@Sindoku i hope your comment gets out of date quickly because its already misleading

@@Sindoku While I get your point, comments are definitely a good thing. Yes code should be self-explanatory, and if it isn't you try your best to fix this. But there's definitely cases where it's best to add a short comment explaining why you've done something. It shouldn't describe *what* but *why*

@@NetherFX That's the point, a comment is worthless unless it touches on the why. A comment that just discusses the what is absolutely garbage because the code documents the what.

Where was this talk held?

thanks "so" much! It's pretty appalling that these folks don't even quote the source

Thank you a ton!

Thank you kzfaq.info/get/bejne/hdyleLyl0LWsaGw.html

Thank you so much!

Rust just isn't his expertise. It's going in the kernel, he's just letting others oversee it.

@@feignit It's already in the mainline kernel for a while. It's very stable and Rust just works really well now.

I actually think go is better than Rust

@@yifeiren8004 You want a garbage collector running in the kernel?

​@@SecretAgentBartFargoRust isn't even close to the stable.

Perhaps anecdotal, but it (AI Assistant in my case, I'm using JB Rider, pretty sure that's tied to ChatGPT) seems to get better with time. After finishing a method, I have another method already in mind. I move the cursor and put a blank line or two in under the method I just created in prep for the new method. If I let it sit for just a second or two before any keystrokes, often times it will predict what method I'm about to create all on its own, without me even starting the method signature. Yes, sometimes it gets it very wrong and I'll just hit escape to clear it, but sometimes it gets it right... and I mean really scary right. Like every line down to the keystroke and even naming is spot on, consistent w/ naming throughout the rest of the project. Yes, agreed, you still need to review the generated code, but I suspect that will only continually get better with every iteration. Rather then autocompleting methods, eventually entire files, then entire projects, then entire solutions. It's probably best for developers to try to learn to work with it in harmony as it evolves, or they will fall behind their peers that are embracing it. Scary and exciting times ahead.

@@keyser456 Same experience for me. It predicts what I was about to write next about 80% of the time, and when it gets it right, it's pretty much spot on. Insane progress just over the past year. Imagine where it will be in another year. Or five years. Coding is going to be a thing of the past, and it's going to happen very quickly.

If it is intelligent enough to write code, it will eventually become intelligent enough to debug complex code, as long as you tell it what is the issue that arises

You are training the llm for the inevitable.

Oh man, now i really want to get into coding just to get that same transformative experience of a tool thinking ahead of you. I am a Designer, and to be frank, the experience with AI in my field is much less exciting, its just stockfootage on steroids, all the handywork of editing and putting it together is sadly the same. But the models are evolving rapidly and stuff like AI object select and masking, vector generation in Adobe Illustrator, transformative AI (making a summer valley into a snow valley e.g.) and motion graphics AI are on the horizon to be good or are already there. Indeed, what a time to be alive :D might get into coding soon tho

Skill issue

​@@doodlebroSHif you always think of every edge case in all of the code you write you are not programming that much

@@doodlebroSH I can tell you are new to programming and talking out of your ass just by that comment.

@@doodlebroSH :D yikes

@@antesajjas3371I think you misspelled edge

Same. ChatGPT is great for throwing together a quick shell or python script to do boring data tasks that would otherwise take much longer.

Yep, saves me so much time with data preprocessing, and adds nice little features that I wouldn't normally bother with for a 1 time use throwaway script

Quit your job.

@@jsrjsr And light a fart?

@@alakani he should do worse than that.

That was a terrible PR though

I think he does it for fun tbh

who amongst us that hasnt had a bad day because of a bad PR cast the first stone

You gotta let off steam somehow

Yeah :/

and his first guest should be joe rogan

@@TalsBadKidney Linus: - "What language do you think should be first tought at elementary school, Joe?" Joe: - "Jujitsu"

@@TalsBadKidneythis is such a great idea

And has a stand-up.

He's such a great speaker, but I doubt he would have much time between managing Linux, family life, and whatever else

as a cloud engineer I gotta say chatgpt with gpt 4 really turbocharges me for most tasks, my productivity shot up 100-200% and i'm not kidding. You gotta know how to make it work for you and it's amazing :)

There will be more than one AI , for each task, to create code and to validate code. Make no mistake, AGI is the last target, but the intermediate ones are good enough to speed up the whole ordeal/effort

Ok, speed, efficiency, productivity… All true, but to what effect? Isn’t it so that every time we’ve had a serious paradigm shift, we thought we could “save time”. Sadly, since corporations are not ‘human’, we’ve ended up working *more* not less, raising the almighty GDP - having less free time and not making significantly more money. Unless… you own shares, IP, patents and other *derivatives* of AI as capital. AI is a tool. A sharp knife is also one. This “debate” should ask “who is holding the tool, and for what purpose?”. That question reveals very different answers to a corporation, a government, a community or a single person. It’s not what AI is or can do. It’s more about what we are, and what we do with AI… 👍

Couldn't the same be said of Stack Overflow? I am not disagreeing with you, just adding an example to show it's not a new phenomenon.

It reminds me about talk in some podcasts before LLM, where speaker said that they tried to use AI as an assistant for medical reports and they faced the following problem: sometimes people see that AI gets the right answers and then when they disagree with it, they still choose the AI's conclusion, because "system can't be wrong". So to fight it, they programmed the system to sometimes give the wrong results, and ask the person to agree or disagree with it, to force people to chose the "right" answer and not to agree with anything that system says. And this is what I believe the weak point of LLM. While it's helpful in some scenarios, in other it can give SO deceiving answers which looks exactly how it should be, but in fact it's something that doesn't even exists. E.g. I tried to ask it about best way to get an achievement in the game, and it came with things that really exists in the game and sounds like they should be related to the achievement, but in fact they not. Or my friend tried to google windows error codes, and it came up with the problem and their descriptions, though it doesn't really exists either.

Great people often age like wine.

@@RyanMartinRAMI have another adage - with age comes wisdom, but sometimes age comes alone. Not this time though!

I think age makes anyone more humble, but sometimes less open minded. It’s good to see Linus recognize that LLMs have their uses, while some projects like Gentoo have stood completely against LLMs. Nothing is black and white, and when the hype is over, I think LLMs will still be used as assistants to pay attention to small stuff we sometimes neglect.

yes, i find him very refreshing indeed

LLMs are total crap, there’s no reason to be optimistic

Yes. Because he is not a marketing guy or not ceo of a company.

Man they can t even count additions. Of course they are not a threat. At least yet

​@@genekisayan6564 never used gpt4 and other later models?

bro do you even O(n^2)?

@@MrFallout92 I wish!!! These days I have a deep love for factorials!

I don't think he would. His famous rants on LKML before he changed his tone were ate people who SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER. I don't remember him going nuts at newbies for being newbies. He did go nuts at experts who tried to submit sub-par/lazy/incomplete/etc work and should have know it's sub-par and needs fixing and didn't bother doing that. He was quite accurate and fair in that.

@@TestTest12332 Has this ever happened? Do you have any specific examples?

​@@Saitanenthat time when fd-based syscall returned file not found error code. Linus went nuts.

In a good way.

He became hopeful and humble

The therapy worked. 😉

no therapy at all, just wisdom @@mikicerise6250

​@@Munchkin303Linus hopeful and humble Torvalds

>No programmer will follow these tools blindly My sweet summer child. CURL authors already have to deal with "security reports" because some [REDACTED]s used Bard to find "vulnerabilities" to get a bug bounty. Wait for next jam in style "submit N PRs and you get our merch" and instead of PRs that fix a typo, you'll get even worse - the code that doesn't compile.

I agree that it can help in these scenarios. People should make aware of this, as the current discussion is way over the top and scare people in losing their jobs (an therefore their mental health). Another thing is, as sustainability was a topic, I'm not sure if the energy consumed by this technology justifies these trivial tasks. Talking with a colleague seems more energy efficient.

aha. until it writes a Go GTK phone app (Linux phone) zero to hero with no code review and only UI design discussions. 6 months ago. just chatgpt4. programming is dying and you people are dreaming. in 2023 there were 30% less new hires across all programming languages. for 2024, out of 950 tech companies, over 40% plan layoffs due to AI. a bit tired to link the source

You underestimate the stupidity of people

Absolutely, im convinced the other commenters claiming LLMs will make programming obsolete in 3 years or whatever are either not programmers or bad programmers lol

That’s the only good take on ai in the video, and maybe the only truly helpful thing ai might ever be used for, finding the obvious mistakes humans make because they’re thinking about more important shit.

That's the problem with computers, you need to do it all 100% correct or it won't work.

@@autohmae That also doubles as the good thing about computers, because it will never do something that you didn't tell it to do

I disagree with this. Simple bugs are easier to find, so we find more of them. The other bugs are more complex which makes them harder to find, so we find less of them. For example, not realising that the HTTP protocol has certain ramifications that become a serious problem when you structure your web app a certain way.

@@chunkyMunky329 It's definitely true that there are always exceptions, though I'd politely suggest "not realising" is primarily a result of inexperience. A badly written and/or badly translated urs can lead to significant issues when the inevitable subsequent change requests flood in, especially if there's poor documentation in the code. Any organisation is only as good as it's QA. We see this more and more in the games industry, where we increasingly, and deliberately, offload the testing aspect of that onto the end consumer. Simple bugs should be easy to find, you'd think, but they're also very, very easy to hide, unfortunately.

Could you elaborate why do you agree? Your comment adds no value right now

I think he really meant to say "autocomplete". Because it basically takes your prompt and looks for what answer is mostly likely to follow it, based on material it has read. Which _is_ indeed kind of how humans work... if you remove creativity and the ability to _interact_ with the world, and only allow them to read books and answer written questions. And by "creativity" I'm including the ability to spot gaps in our own knowledge and do experiments to acquire _new_ information that wasn't part of our training.

The thing people with the interviewers mindset misses is what it takes to predict correctly. The language model has to have an implicit understanding of the data in order to predict. And ChatGPT is using a large language model to produce text, but you could just as well use it to produce something else, like actions in a robot. Which is kind of what humans do; they see and hear things, and act accordingly. People who dismiss the brilliance of large language models on the basis that they're "just predicting text" are really missing the point.

@@sbqp3 - No, you couldn't really use it to "produce actions in a robot", because what makes ChatGPT (and LLMs in general) reasonably competent is the huge amount of material it was trained on, and there isn't anywhere near the same amount of material (certainly not in a standardised, easily digestible form) of robot control files and outcomes. The recent "leap" in generative AI came from the volume of training data (and ability to process it), not from any revolutionary new algorithms. Just more memory + more CPU power + easy access to documents on the internet = more connections & better weigh(t)ing = better output. And in any application where you just don't have that volume of easily accessible, easily processable data, LLMs are going to give you poor results. We're still waiting for remotely competent self-driving vehicles, and there are billions of hours of dashcam footage and hundreds of companies investing millions in it. Now imagine trying to use a similar machine-learning model to train a mobile industrial robot, that has to deal with things like "finger" pressure, spatial clearance, humans moving around it, etc.. Explicitly coded logic (possibly aided by some generic AI for object recognition, etc. - which is already used) is still going to be the norm for the foreseeable future.

​@@alang.2054 I like his comment because most thinking humans do is in fact system 1 thinking - which is reflex-like and on a similar level as what LLMs do.

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

lmao

😂😂

HAHAHA

Linus literally uses a MacBook…

Sir Linus Hopeful *_And_* Humble Torvalds

I wouldn’t even agree. Imagine yourself just getting the job to code x project. In that case, you can rely on a very limited amount of information. Within the right, there are very few ways in which LLMs fail.

Maybe if many programmers sit down and explain their thought process on multiple different problems it can learn to abstract the problem solving method programmers use. While the auto correct on steroids might be technically accurate for what it's doing, the models it builds to predict the next token are extremely sophisticated and for all we know may have some similarity to our logical understanding of problem domains. Also LLMs are still in their infancy. There are probably controls or additional complexity that could be added to address current shortcomings. I'm skeptical of some of the AI hype, I'm equally skeptical of the naysayers. I tend to think the naysayers are wrong based on what LLMs have already accomplished. Plenty of people just 2-3 years ago would've said some of the things they are doing now are impossible.

Read the original documentation and if there's something you don't understand, Google it and be social. Only let the LLM regurgitate that part of the docs in terms you understand as a last resort. I'm surprised at the creativity LLMs have in their own context, but don't replace reading the docs and writing code with LLMs. You must understand why the algo/struct is important and what problems each algorithm solves. If you think LLMs replace experience, you're surely mistaken and you'll be trapped in learned helplessness for eternity.

I literally asked chatGPT today to explain to MVCC pattern (Which I could've sworn is called the MVVC pattern but it corrected me to that) and its explanation got worse after every attempt of me telling it, it was not doing a good job.

​@@SimGuntherreading the docs only works if you know what you're looking for. LLMs are great at understanding your badly written question. I once proposed a solution to a problem I had to ChatGPT and it said: that sounds similar to the technique in statistics called bootstrapping. Opened up a whole new box of tricks previously unknown to me. I could have spent months cultivating social relationships with statisticians but it would have been a lot more work and I'm not sure they'd have the patience.

It _seems_ to be creative and it _seems_ to be clever especially to those who are not. The host was fully correct stating that it has nothing to do with "intelligence", it only _seems_ to be intelligent.

@@kralg If we made a future LLM that is indistinguishable from a human being, that answers questions correctly, that can solve novel problems, that "seems" creative... what is it that distinguishes our intelligence than the model's? It's just picking one token before the next, but isn't that what I'm also doing while writing this comment? In my view, there can certainly be intelligence involved in those simple choices.

@@doomsdayrule Intelligence is much more than just about writing a text. Our decisions are based not only on lexical facts, but on our personal experiences, personal interests, emotions etc. I cannot and not going to much deeper into that, but it must be way more complex than a simple algorithm based on a bunch of data. I am not saying less than you will never ever be able to make a future LLM that is indistinguishable from a human being. Of course when you are presented just a text written by "somebody" you may not be able to figure it out, but if you start living with a person controlled by an LLM you will distinguish much sooner than later. It is all because the bunch of data these LLMs are using is missing one important thing: personality. And this word is highly related to intelligence.

@@doomsdayrule As I am writing this comment, I'm not starting with a random word like "As" and then try to figure out what to write next. (Actually, the first draft started with "When") I have a thought in mind, and then somehow pick a sentence pattern suitable for expressing it. Then I read over (usually while still typing) and revise. At some point, my desire to fiddle with the comment is defeated by the need to do something else with my day, and I submit the reply. And then I notice obvious possibilities for improvements and edit what I just submitted.

@@MarcusHilarius One aspect to this is that we are living in an overhyped world. Just in recent years we have heard so many promises like what you made. Just think about the promises made by Elon Musk and other questionable people. The marketing around these technologies are way "in front" of the reality. If there is just a theoretical possibility of something, the marketing jumps on it, they create thousands of believers in the obvious aim to gather support for further development. I think it is just smart to be cautious. The other aspect to this is that many believers do not know the real details of the technologies they believe in. The examples you mentioned are not in the future, at some extent they are available now. We call it automation and they do not require AI at all. Instead they rely on sensor technology and simple logic. Put an AI sticker on it and sell a lot more. Sure machine learning will be a great tool in the future, but not much more. We are in the phase of admiration now, but soon we will face the challenges and disadvantages of it and we will just live with them as we did so with many other technologies from the past.

I'm pretty sure it can sketch out both, and then you can use the model to drill down and fill in the pieces. At least, that is how I use it. It does pretty well. I currently have to keep an eye on it, but it isn't stupid and is quite capable of writing novel code (with some prompting), or converting algorithms to AVX2 or writing CUDA or... The value seems to be in the eye of the beholder. If you approach it with skepticism and cynicism and refuse to put some effort in, well, you get what you deserve, imho.

Part of the issue is quantity. There are far fewer resources on the lower level concepts and that lack of resources hampers chances of improving quality. Ai in programming is essentially a programmer that's only ever done tutorials and you'll be hard pressed to find enough tutorials for something low level like a driver when compared to something like a website. So of course an AI will spit gibberish for a driver. Personally ive used ai mostly for quickly finding out if a thing already exists for what I'm doing, like if you didn't know the map function existed asking the ai how you could combine two sets of values together the ai tells you about map.

You have to cut the tasks into smaller individual prompts. You can't ask it to code an OS in one prompt.

@@Jcossette1it’s a form of supervised learning, so you need the knowledge to specify the expected supervised behaviour that you can write it yourself already, such that they can just do autocorrect in steroids. As for long lines of code, it might not face the 128K context window limitation directly, but it will face sparse self-attention issues that will delete random lines of code way before that!

you say that like you're an expert -- AI LLM's like chatgpt have only been around for like 6-12 months

If it was great at static analysis then people would probably already be using it for static analysis

Although by the time you read and fully understand the code, you may as well have written it.

@@traveller23e if the code fails for some reason, I'll be glad I took the time to understand it.

@@traveller23e actually true. if you understand every aspect of the code, why wouldn't you just have written it yourself? at some point when using llms these people will become used to the answers being mostly correct so they'll stop checking. productivity 200% bla bla, yeah sure dude. man llms will ruin modern software even more, todays releases are already full of bugs

@@traveller23e Well the same goes for the compiler. If you "fully understand" the code there should never be a warning or error. Most tools like GitHub-copilot require you to write anyway, but they give you the option of writing a view dozen chars with a single keystroke. This is pretty nice if most of your work is assembling different algorithms or data structures, not creating new ones.

I submit all the times code I don't understand, I simply ask in english the LLM to explain it to me. I have written a whole app in javascript without learning JS in my entire life

OK, but the goal is to create a tool that's superior to humans, not just replicates humans, still making errors but faster : ) "Here's a new thing I invented - it's called a calculator, and you can use it to add and multiply big numbers. The only snag is that some of the results will be incorrect" "That's fine - when humans count by hand, some of the results are incorrect, too" ;) Well, of course, but that's not quite the point... And there's still a difference, because the AI have an inherent 100% "sense of confidence" when they hallucinate. It's not a bug, it's a feature. As someone put it, they are by definition "dream machines". They work by creating plausible looking solutions, based on the assumption that a plausible looking solution is likely to actually be plausible. (And more often than not, it is... until it's not). We do make mistakes, we make "off-by-one" errors when iterating over an array, we may confuse dates discussing historical events But if I ask you about a non-existent novel, you may confuse it with something you actually read. But the difference is that an AI doesn't "run out of steam" when it hallucinates. You can ask ChatGPT about a non-existent novel. It will make it up on the fly. You can ask it about specific scenes, characters, and it will invent them all. That's not exactly how a human mind - fallible as it is - works. Besides: "And we will still be here to catch LLM hallucinations." I wouldn't be so optimistic about it. Reviewing and debugging code is notoriously harder than writing it, and AI hallucinations may not be easy for humans to detect, because we're trained to spot errors made by other humans, who think kind of like us. The AIs are not, and won't be "thinking" like we do. Once AI is tasked with writing large and complex systems - and at a much faster pace than we do - it may become very hard to effectively supervise it.

ive never been insulted by gpt

@@derekhettinger451 Ha Ha!!!!!

Lmao. Well, a senior dev is likely on the other end of a stack overflow answer, so basically yea

@@VoyivodaFTW1 optimistic I see

Any help forum is just a distributed neural net when you think about it

Full interview video is called "Keynote: Linus Torvalds, Creator of Linux & Git, in Conversation with Dirk Hohndel" by the Linux Foundation channel.

Precisely this. With Horizon it took years of them being incredulous that there were any bugs at all, that it must be perfect and that instead thousands of postmasters were simply thieves. Eventually the bugs/errors became so glaring (and finally maybe someone competent actually looked at the code) that it was then known that the software was in fact broken. What then followed were many many more years of cover ups and lies, with people mainly concerned with protecting their own status/reputation/business revenue rather than do what was right and just. Given all this, the AI scenario is going to be far worse: the AI system that “hallucinates” faulty code will also “hallucinate” spurious but very plausible explanations. 99.99% won’t have the requisite technical knowledge to determine that it is in fact wrong. The 0.01% won’t be believed or listened to. The terrifying prospect of AI is in fact very mundane (not Terminator nonsense): its ability to be completely wrong or fabricate entirely incorrect information, and then proceed to explain/defend it with seemingly absolute authority and clarity. It is only a matter of time before people naturally entrust them far too much, under the illusion that they are never incorrect, in the same way that one assumes something must be correct if 99/100 people believe it to be so. Probability/mathematics is a good example of where 99/100 might think something is correct, but in fact they’re all wrong - sometimes facts can be deeply counterintuitive, and go against our natural intelligence heuristics.

Maybe. But it depends what we allow ai to be in charge of. Remember, if we vote out the gop we can like pass laws again to do things for the benefit of the people including ai regulations if needed.

he's obviously very humble

Reviewing can be automated.

you'll spend more time making sure it didn't add confident errors than it would take to write the code in the first place. complete gimmick only attractive to weak programmers

@@elle305 I don’t think that’s accurate. Sure, you need the expertise to spot errors. Sure, you need the expertise to know what to ask for. But I don’t agree with the idea that you’ll take more time with LLMs than without. It’s boosted by productivity significantly. It’s boosted my ability to try new ideas quickly and iterate quickly. It’s boosted my ability to debug problems in existing code. It’s been incredibly useful. It’s a soundboard. It’s like doing pair programming but you get instant code. I want more of it, not less.

@@br3nto i have no way to validate your personal experience because i have no idea of your background. but I'm a full time developer and have been for decades, and I'm telling you that reviewing llm output is harder and more error prone than programming. there are no shortcuts to this discipline and people who look for them tend to fail

⁠@@elle305 it’s no different for any other discipline. but sometimes doing it the hard way (fucking around trying to make the ai output work somehow) is more efficient than doing it the right way, especially for one-of things, like trying to cobble together an assignment. and unfortunately more often than not, weak programmers (writers, artists, …) are perfectly sufficient for the purposes of most companies.

@@Jonas-Seiler i disagree

He is different but something I've noticed is that smart people have a great at understanding things that the rest of us struggle with, but they are kinda dumb when it comes to things of simple common sense. Like for him to not understand the down side to an AI writing bad code for you is just kinda silly. It should be obvious that a more reliable tool would be better than a less reliable tool.

​@@chunkyMunky329There is no "more reliable tool" though It is about tools in your toolbox in general Just because your hammer is really good at hammering in a nail, you're not gonna use it to saw a plank. Same with programming. You use the tools that get the job done.

@@chunkyMunky329 You have an implicit assumption that people are more reliable tools than LLMs. I think that is up for debate.

@@pauldraper1736 "people" is a vague term. Also, I never said that it was a battle between manual effort vs LLMs. It should be a battle between an S-Tier human invention such as a compiler vs an LLM. Great human-built software will cause chat GPT to want to delete itself

@@chunkyMunky329 linter is only one possible use of ai

@@user-qd4xs8zb8sWhat, like a "Prompt Engineer"? It's ridiculous that this became a thing given how LLMs work. It's all about intuition that most people can figure out if they spend a day messing around with it.

Honestly this has not been my experience using GPT4

Disagree. Since humans constantly creating bugs when coding themselves, even subtle, even the best of the best. LLM are amazing. I realized my python code ended up needing to be multi threaded. I fed it my code, and it multi threaded everything. They are incredible and only this is just beginning? 5 years will blow peoples minds, completely. People who don't find how amazing llms are, just aren't that bright in my opinion.

thats why you must input the psuedocode on llm to control the output more be precise to what you want.

It's amusing how we, as programmers, often tell users that if they input poor quality data into the system, they should expect poor quality results. In this case, the fault lies with the user, not the system. However, now we find ourselves complaining about a system when we input low-quality data and receive unsatisfactory results. This time, though, we blame the system instead of ourselves

Yes no one is talking about the effect on creativity LLMs will cause

@@rithikgandhi3685yeah

You should pat yourself on the back for not asking ChatGPT to write code for you.

@@Spacemonkeymojo Only my KZfaq comments are written by ChatGPT, not my code.

Bard and code, only for simple stuff

You got stuck in your own word salad. Start over; Think like a programmer. Break the problem down. How would you go about proving the LLM's code is correct using today's technology?

​@@caLLLendar First, I don't appreciate your tone. I know this is KZfaq and standards of discourse here are notoriously low, but there is no need to be rude. I wasn't making a point about engineering. The issue is not the code, code can of course be Unit Tested etc. for validity. The issue is that the method of producing the code is fundamentally statistical, and not arrived at through any form of reason. This means there is a ceiling of trust that we must impose if we are to avoid the obvious pitfalls of such an approach. As a result of the inherent nature of ML, it will inevitably perpetuate coding flaws/issues in the training data - and you, as the developer, if you do not preference your own problem solving skills are increasingly relegated to the role of code babysitter. This is not something to be treated casually. Early research is now starting to validate this concern: visualstudiomagazine.com/Articles/2024/01/25/copilot-research.aspx These models have their undeniable uses, but I find it depressing how many developers are rushing to proclaim their own obsolescence in the face of a provably flawed (though powerful) tool.

@@calmhorizons Have one developer draft psueudocode that is transformed to whatever scripting language that is preferred and then use a boatload of QA tools. The output from the QA tools prompt the LLM. Look at Python Wolverine to see automated debugging. Google the loooooonnnnng list of free open source QA tools that can be wrapped around the LLMs. The LLMs can take care of most of the code (like writing unit tests, type hinting, documentation, etc). The first thing you'd have to do is get some hands on experience in writing the pseudocode in a style that LLMs and non-programmers can understand. From there, you will get better at it and ultimately SEE it with your own eyes. I admit that there are times that I have to delete a conversation (because the LLM seems to become stubborn). However, that too can be automated. The result? 19 out of 20 developers fired. LOL I definitely wouldn't hire a developer who wouldn't be able to come up with a solution for the problems you posed (even if the LLM and tools are doing most of the work). Some devs pose the problem and cannot solve it. Other devs think that the LLM should be able to do everything (i.e. "Write me a software program that will make me a million dollars next week). Both perceptions are provably wrong. As programmers it is our job to break the problem down and solve it. Finally, there are ALREADY companies doing this work (and they are very easy to find).

@@calmhorizons exactly. Agreed, and very well put. Respect for taking time to reply to a rather shallow and asinine comment. "As a result of the inherent nature of ML, it will inevitably perpetuate coding flaws/issues in the training data " I would add that this will likely be exacerbated once more and more AI-generated code makes its way into the training datasets (and good luck filtering it out). We already know that it has a very deteriorating effect on the quality (already proven for the case of image generation), because all flaws inherent to the method get amplified as a result.

Do you have any valid arguments that make you think that it cannot do anyone's job or is it just your emotions?

​@@vuralmecbur9958if your job relies on not thinking and copy pasting code then yes it can replace you but if it is not,if you understand code and can modify it properly to your needs and specifications it can not replace you,I work on ai as well

​@@vuralmecbur9958it's not about AI not being an "autocorrect on steroids". It's about "there are a lot of jobs out there, that could be done by autocorrect on steroids"

@@vuralmecbur9958do you have any valid arguments as to why people will get layed off instead of companies scaling up their projects? 200-300% increase in productivity simply means 200-300% increase in future project sizes, the field you're working in is already dying anyway if scaling up isn't possible and you're barking at the wrong tree where i'm working were constantly turning down projects because there's too much to do and no skilled labour to hire (avionics/defense)

​@@vuralmecbur9958 go prompt it to make you a simple application and you'll see it's not taking anyone's job anytime soon. If anything, it's an amazing learning tool. You can study code and anything you don't understand, it will explain in depth. You don't quite grasp a concept? Prompt it to explain it further.

Agreed! This is the type of thing people say somewhat arrogantly when they've only had a limited play with the modern LLMs. My mind was blown when I wrote a parser of what I would call medium complexity in python for a particular proprietary protocol. It worked great but it was taking 45 mins to process a days worth of data, and I was using it every day to hunt down a weird edge case that only happened every few days. So out of interest I copied and pasted the entire thing into GPT4 and said "This is too slow, please re-write it in C and make it faster" and it did. Multiple files, including headers, all perfect. It compiled first time, and did in about 30s (I forget how long exactly but that ballpark) what my hand written python program was doing in 45 mins. I don't think I've EVER written even a simple program that's compiled first time, let alone something medium complicated. To call this auto complete doesn't give it the respect it deserves. GPT4 did in a few seconds what would have taken me a couple of days (if I even managed it at all, I'm not an expert in C by a long stretch).

I agree, the reductionist argument trivializes the power of LLMs. We could say the same thing about humans, we "just predict the next word in a series of sentences". That doesn't capture the power and magic of human ingenuity.

Even Linus says that. Some of the things that LLMs produce are almost black magic.

So... Autocorrect

​@@davidparker5530humans don't just predict the next word though. Llms do. Neural networks don't think, all they do is guess based on some inputs. Humans think about problems and work through them, llms by nature don't think about anything more than what they've seen before.

Full interview video is called "Keynote: Linus Torvalds, Creator of Linux & Git, in Conversation with Dirk Hohndel" by the Linux Foundation channel.

He has to be careful now that the SJWs neutered him and sent him to tolerance camp. Thank the people who wrote absolute garbage like the contributor covenant code of conduct

Then you're not in the loop. Linus was never the central figure of the FOSS movement. While his contribution to the Linux Kernel is appreciated he's not really considered one of the leaders when it comes to the FOSS movement.

@@haroldcruz8550 Well said. I'd expect stronger opinions from Richard Stallman for instance.

good point xD

I think most project leads would not be glad if one of their devs submitted a PR for code they hallucinated

@@verdiss7487 not what i am talking about

late stage ca-

@@pueraeternus. cannibalism?

No. Your comment was for me like a fresh air in the middle of all this pseudo-cognitive farting about the so-called AI. No, it is not only for you. Those who say otherwise are just posers, actors, mystifying parrots repeating the instilled marketing hype.

No. Thinking like a programmer, are you able to come up with a solution?

That junior coder needs more GitHubs so we can bring them on as a lead dev to work with AI. The middle management and entry level is over in the future.

technology as an idea is reliable - a hammer will always be a hard thing + leverage. We have relied on technology since the dawn of mankind, so I'm not sure what you're saying here.

@@kevinmcq7968 llms are reliable? how so? can you name a technology that we have relied on in the past that is as random as llms? I am genuinely curious

@@kevinmcq7968 I think you are just intentionally misunderstanding what he is saying. He is not saying tools are not usefull, he is saying that if the tool starts to replace the use of your own mind it can make you dependent at the point that it will prejudice your own reasoning skills (and we have some evidence that this is happening, that's why some schools are turning back to use handwritting for example / Miguel Nicolelis also has some takes on this matter).

LLMs solve not needing to remember how you write things. You still have to be able to read it and have good judgement on where the code is subpar.

@@melvin6228 This is nonsense. How can you audit code that you yourself don't remember how to write?

@@skyleite is that function you use twice a year called "empty_foo_bar" or "clear_foo_bar"? Or maybe "foo_bar_clear"? Those kinds of questions are very important and annoying to answer when writing, useless when reading.

​@@yjlom Or even just something as simple like the question of how you get the length of an array in the particular language you are using. After using enough languages, they kind of all blend together, and I can't remember if this one is x.length, x.length(), size(x), or len instead of length somewhere. I'm used to flipping between a lot of languages quickly, and it's really easy to forget the specifics of a particular one sometimes, even if I understand the flow I would like the program to follow. Essentially, having an AI that can act as a sort of active documentation can really help.

I was using ChatGPT to help me write code just today. I'm making a Python module in Rust and I'm new to Rust. I wanted to improve my error handling. I asked how to do something and ChatGPT explained that I could put Results in my iterator and just collect at the end to get a vector if all the results are ok or an error if there was a problem. I didn't understand how that worked and asked a bunch of follow-up questions about various edge cases. ChatGPT explained it all. Several things happened at once: I got an immediate, working solution to my specific problem. I didn't have to look up the functions and other names. And I got tutored in a new technique that I'll remember next time I have a similar situation. And it's not just the output. It's that your badly explained question, where you don't know the correct terminology, gets turned into a useful answer. On a separate occasion I learned about the statistical technique of bootstrapping by coming up with a similar idea myself and asking ChatGPT for prior art. I wouldn't have been able to search for it without already knowing the term.

you're a programmer in my eyes!

"Only thing I need to learn is how to prompt better." This is exactly the problem. Especially when you scale. You can't prompt to make a change to an already complex system. It then becomes easier to just code or refactor yourself.

The fact that anybody needs to "prompt better" suggest that LLMs are not very good yet

@@twigsagan3857 Only problem is when the code exceeds the Token Limit. Otherwise I can still let the LLM correct my code. Takes a while to get there but It works.. And no I am not at all a programmer xD

@@chunkyMunky329 huh? LLMs predict the most likely answer. So the way you describe the Task is the most important thing in dealing with it..

Because the guy doesn’t know what he is talking about with respect to LLMs and ML. He is clearly intelligent but has only surface level knowledge in that field.

@@EdwardBlair yeah I also found it curious that as he was about to ask Linus about AI in kernel development, he apparently felt an overwhelming need to first vent his own opinion on AI in general even though that wasn't even the topic at hand and he wasn't the person that was being interviewed.

I'm an expert in the field and I _still_ think it's "autocorrect on steroids." It's just that I think that autocorrect was a revolutionary tool, even when it was just Markov chains.

You don't always have to reinvent the wheel when it comes to learning how to code. Everyone starts by copying code from Stack Overflow and many still do that for novel concepts they want to understand. It can be pretty helpful to ask AI for specific things instead of spending hours trying to search for something fitting... Sure thing, if you just stop at copying you don't learn anything

@@cookie_space but i think that's the thing, the risk of "just copying" will be higher because all the AI tools and AI features in our IDEs will make it a lot easier and more probable to get the code ready for you

@@cookie_spaceeveryone? Man don't throw everyone to the same bucket. Are you the guy who can not even write a bubble sort out of your head and you need to google every single solution? Well, that is sad

@@Markus-iq4sm I wasn't aware that your highness was born with the knowledge of every programming language and concept imprinted in your brain already. It might be hard to fathom for you, but some of us actually have to learn programming at some point

@@cookie_space you learn nothing by copy-pasting, actually it will even make you worse especially for beginners

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