Can you talk about like cardio and strength standards to not be games athletes but decent top gym athletes. How do you know if i.e clean is this xxx so I can move on and work on something else. My row times are xxx now work on echo bike time of xxx, basically when do you know that you have a weakness or a strength, to know to stop working so hard on one and work on a different thing. Hope that makes sense 😂

Do you guys think a chest strap heart monitor is better than just a wrist heart monitor?

Amazing episode! I’ve been wanting someone to talk about this and give examples for so long. I’m definitely on the side of needing more stamina, can you guys give examples improving lower body stamina, my legs blow up the bike erg a lot 🔥

Thank you for this podcast. IMHO, you didn't talk about breathing a lot: mouth Vs. nose, breathing loudly/rhythmically so that you know you're in control... Would a rule of thumb like "if I can chat back and forth I'm in Zone 2" work (So that you don't have to look at charts, devices and what not while exercising)? 43:21 Maybe choose the modality you're usually not comfortable transitioning from? Would you say that Competition/Games Programming in the Boz era is more "JT" than "Helen" 😉? Thank you!

@@Gaiartemis I can answer this, the answer is 100%, yes. Way more accurate

Thanks!

😢

Chill

This is a good time to work on that! Build your endurance now so you can express your capacity later.

Dude same

The things you have done so far are great! Now I'd suggest adding in some of the longer, slower, efforts we discuss to make your fitness much more well rounded!

Thanks!

@@kyleruth5145 Do you guys think a chest strap heart monitor is better than just a wrist heart monitor?

Yes, without ANY question Chest strap is far superior, it measures electrical activity of heart vs wrist which uses lasers to measure blood flow.

@@kyleruth5145 Thanks!

This please

This was the key for me - prior to starting with run-walk work like this it just felt like a waste of time to run THAT SLOW in order to stay in zone-2. Shifting to the interval structure made a world of difference for me.

@@kyleruth5145so is this just a matter of preference or is the interval approach superior to just running slow? I don’t mind the running slow because I do it outside. On days when it’s hot or I choose to do bridges (we don’t have “hills” in FL) I have to go really slow or sometimes start walking, but again I don’t mind it.

@@5bbqpringles I don't think the interval approach is necessarily better, like you said it's more a matter of preference. Also, I've found a lot of people don't have the base level of fitness required to be able to run for extended periods of time while staying in zone-2, so shifting to intervals allows them to get the volume they need in order to make adaptations.

We will see what we can do ;)

Confirmed, will have him on when he’s back in GA this winter

Can’t wait for that episode… even though us mere mortals can barely understand his big brain

Alright Peter attia

Evan had some of my favorite podcasts. Brilliant mind

🤘

Sounds like it's working!

1. One is not harder than the other. Building cardio endurance is harder for ME to build, but stamina is harder for Brannen to build. A lot of it is based on genetic predisposition and training history. 2. We went into more depth on this in the follow up podcast that was just released. An order of operations for building stamina would be: 1. Ensure base qualities of strength and cardio endurance are developed… without these you’re going upstream without a paddle. Then focus on the SPECIFIC patterns you want to improve (ie pulling or pressing) and build volume AND density in those patterns using progressive overload.

This is something we will definitely address on a follow up podcast. The real answer is likely - a little bit of both. But both Brannen and I tend to view training from a performance perspective rather than a physiological systems perspective since in the end we are trying to get the athlete to the top of the hill as fast as possible!

I think this year they did a pretty good job with the shuttle + burpee pull-up test INTO the max thruster. I think that’s was well planned out. Brannen and I will give some thought to this for the next podcast.

This is normal and one of the reasons "endurance" is a complicated topic. You can feel different limitations within different tests OR even within the same test based on stroke rate, for example. You will still have one limitation that is greater than the other (few people are well-rounded), but that doesn't mean you shouldn't always strive to continue to improve both your cardiovascular and local endurance throughout the year.

@@brannendorman6772 you guys are awesome! love the well thought out content!

Get to work on some zone-2! There are some other things you can do to help with your breathing….we will cover those in future episodes as well

@@kyleruth5145 Definitely will! Zone-2 was something i always skipped & just did GOWOD on recovery/zone-2 days! Greatly appreciate this video & will tune in for the next ones!

I’ve used a really simple structure of 2x 30min ski @ zone 2 No progression, just ran it for MONTHS. My thought process was that we would use the zone-2 ski to build some capillary and mitochondrial density - essentially making their triceps / shoulders a little better at dealing with fatigue / metabolite build up from dense HSPU Sessions would be: Hspu specific training … Directly into 30min zone-2 ski Worked pretty well!

Heck yea! We will come up with a plan.

I weighed Rick later that day and he was only 14#, I was hoping his lil chunky ass was the full 35# 🤣

But honestly, isn’t this dangerous for the kitty? 😂

Interestingly -- endurance is one of the few training qualities that really can continue to improve for a LONG time. If you look there are a number of athletes in longer endurance sports who are in their 40's -- where the same is just not true in strength / power sports. With that said, I personally think that things like low-intensity endurance training are even more important for people as they age, and the research on this topic tends to support that. So I would say "endurance" for older athletes doesn't really look THAT much different than it does for younger populations.

zone-2 is typically 60-70% of your HR max. Your max HR is going to be different for each modality / erg based on your experience level -- so yes the zone will be different for running than it is for say a C2 bike. Part of this is due to the amount of muscle-mass recruited for each -- running uses A TON of muscle mass from the legs to postural stabilizers, etc --- where biking really only recruits the legs / glutes and requires much less postural stability due to the fact that you're sitting. SO we would expect HR to be closer to your true physiological max running than biking.

I think in this sport there are a number of athletes who have been able to compete at a high level, even into the games with really poor cardiac output. They basically do what Brannen said that he does in the middle of this podcast where he maximizes movement efficiency and workout strategy which allows him (and them) to compete at a fairy high level. The problem is that this strategy comes with a performance ceiling, and if they really want to get to the next level, whatever that may be, they’re going to have to build a more robust physiology.

@@kyleruth5145 Agreed! I think the heart rate zones, while the easiest to track, can sometimes lead delivery limited athletes still going too hard. Not everyone has a NIRS, but there is that feeling of muscle tension/fatigue that you can start to identify when your at a negative rate of oxygen exchange. As you mentioned small sets with rest, but I’ve also found rotating between various machines continuously can also help. It will allow my heart rate to climb higher without my muscle extraction rate increasing.

@@matthewlink131 I think a lot of the advantage of staying on a SINGLE erg (or modality) for longer periods is that you can build the underlying "machinery" that supports delivery / extraction so that you're able to maintain higher HR's without feeling that muscular limitation. At least, that's been my own experience.

Spoiler alert Brannen and I are committed to doing this ruck test, we are going to build a plan and will share some of the details on the podcast so you’re not stuck creating this for yourself!

@@kyleruth5145looking forward to this!

I’ve spent a lot of time trying to define endurance for the TTT courses over the years, and I think the best definition that I’ve arrived at is that endurance is RELATIVE to the individual’s goals. As an example, imagine someone who is getting prepped for their first 5k - for them “finishing the 5k” is endurance. Contrast that to someone pushing to win an Olympic gold in the track 5k… to them endurance is the ability to maintain at or near world record pace for 5000m. Both people need to develop their endurance, but the specifics of their endurance (and the contributions from each energy system) are relative. So using my example from the podcast, I needed to get better at EVERY EVENT LONGER THAN 10min. So building endurance for me centered around developing that time domain. However when I was a competitive swimmer who specialized in 50-100 freestyle / butterfly, “endurance” to me was 45-50sec time domain - and the ability to maintain speed over that duration. Hope this clarifies my point, and this is definitely something we will explore in a follow up podcast.

This is where I was for years and no amount of forcing myself back onto the bar (or ball, or GHD, or whatever) would improve the feeling of suffocating. That’s why I went back to the drawing board and started building a “real” aerobic base. However the best thing to do is to follow the “order of operations” we set out in the podcast: (1) improve your efficiency with the bar (or ball, GHD, db, etc), (2) since you already know you’re likely more cardiovascular limited…get started with zone-2 work choosing an erg or modality based on what you feel you need to develop the most. As I said in the podcast, I chose running for a couple of reasons… I’m heavier than most of my competitors, I was always a decent rower, and running made me feel like I was suffocating, so it was the obvious choice! Best time to start was 10 years ago…second best is today.

ayeeeeeeee! going to see Kiki this Sunday on the big screen!

Aim for 60% to 70% of your max heart rate for zone 2

It should absolutely be possible to progress both muscular endurance and strength together UNLESS you are near your strength ceiling. Using a polarized approach is a good way to accomplish this - heavy work followed by muscular endurance work.

Great question, we will address.

I mentioned this in the podcast -- its not haha. I've actually run an experiment where I wore 3 different monitors: whoop / garmin watch / polar chest strap -- both whoop and garmin would have random spikes and valleys that were completely disconnected from my effort / pacing / RPE... the chest strap was extremely consistent and jived well with those subjective metrics.

My advice would be to add it in whenever works best for you, whether or not a rest day or on top of your daily work. If on the same day, I'd do it afterwards. But tbh, you're going to get benefit no matter when, just as long as you do it consistently

This answer is the correct one! The great thing about zone-2 training is that it really can be done whenever, and doesn’t really require a lot of prep / warm-up (in fact you can USE it as warm up and an extended cool-down). What I found was that if I did it first thing in the morning, it affected my afternoon training, but I was willing to accept that. If I did it AFTER training then my pace @ zone-2 was a lot slower…so there was a trade off … but in the end, your heart doesn’t really care when you do it…just that you do!!

I watch soooo many CF videos. This has been the most informative and encouraging - it covers so many levels of fitness. It’s great to hear where to start and how it can help in wods, even for less fit folks like myself. Thank you so much for this!

Not exactly - I said zone-2 RUNNING is the worst thing you can do if you need to get stronger… zone-2 bike / ski / row are all going to have a smaller negative impact on strength (or none at all)

Great questions - we will address in follow up podcast.

Yes to all of the above. I would just start to really work yourself closer to the 2.5hr / week range if it's possible.

We VERY briefly touched on this in the video -- but limitations (and therefore max HR) is going to be different on every erg (and during each modality). SO what you would have to do is establish a max HR on each erg you plan to use for your zone-2 training. Brannen and I can talk about what a max-HR test might look like and how you can figure that out.

Thanks coach 🫡

HR was likely outside of zone-2 range, unless your HR just runs REALLY high. You'd need to back off closer to the 130ish range depending on age / max HR ... which would obviously slow this down and change the feel. ALSO -- I recommend keeping the run portion longer than the walk portion if possible....which would ALSO necessitate slowing paces.

there's a little bit of "it depends" that has to be thrown out here. I mentioned this in the video and this is CRITICALLY important to understand when using endurance training as "cross-training" for CrossFit -- the local muscular endurance adaptation you make during zone-2 training are SPECIFIC to the erg you are on while the cardiovascular adaptation that you make are non-specific (meaning they carry over to ANY movement / modality). This is why I mentioned it being important to choose your erg wisely -- in my case I knew I needed to get better at bodyweight based movements like bounding and jumping so that was the logical choice. The muscular endurance that I built in my legs and calves had some (limited) carry over to the sport-specific movements I wanted to improve. If you struggle more with upper-body endurance, it might make more sense to focus on using a ski-erg rather than running or biking.

Yes, I wasn’t super clear on this in the episode but I did 3x run, 2x bike (45-60min) each week during this progression.

This is the concept of building an endurance base. The adaptations that happen from low intensity erg / running increase the ceiling for performance in high intensity workouts at shorter time domains. Without getting too deep into the physiology… it allows you to build mitochondrial and capillary density in the working muscles and trains the heart to fill with more blood - all of which support performance at higher intensities.

What topic you want in the future?

More to come!

Thanks, that just made this way harder!

How do hard efforts impact zone 2 training: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/mqiSfpBh286RlGw.html It's a deep dive by Dr. Inigo San Milan High on zone 2. My TLDR: higher intensity temporary stops the energy systems used in Zone 2. Better to do zone 2 and higher intensity on separate days, or do high intensity at the end of zone 2 training.

This is dependent on your max HR on the bike! Zone-2 is typically said to fall between 60-70% of your maximum HR. So if your max HR is 200 BPM, then your zone-2 would fall between 120-140 BPM.

Sounds like you need to spend some time on the bikes! Try doing 20min on the c2 bike with a higher damper, keep HR in zone-2, couple times per week (2-3). Give your body 4-6 weeks to adapt and see if it’s feeling better.

There are always endurance options in our Elite path! We also have 5 endurance training days in TTT Fitness. For those who purchase the "COMPLETE" membership, they will have access to all of it. We will drop the next cycle video June 19th!

We will discuss on the next podcast! Also, if you are in our online program, TTT Compete, you will see plenty of examples on exactly how to program and implement squat endurance strategies.

Yes to all of the above. Depending on what level you're starting at, performing super sets of "compounding fatigue" movements like squats, lunges, step-ups can be a great way to build local muscular endurance. I've gravitated toward doing my muscular endurance work with either a wtd vest (higher repetitions 20+ per set) or 50# DB's (moderate repetitions ~15-20 / set) and keeping the rest breaks pretty short. An example might be: 20 DBL DB Front Squats @ 50# 20 DBL DB Farmers Grip Walking Lunge @ 50# 20cals C2 bike, standing @ damper-10 rest = work b/t sets x3 sets this is a fairly advanced RX here... but should illustrate the point that each movement pre-fatigues the next.

Short answer -- be a newbie haha -- longer answer, a well laid out program and enough calories to ensure you're not losing muscle mass as you train!

Zone 2 endurance training is not stressful to the body due to the low Hr, so less chance of overtraining. My limitation is finding the time to do the zone 2 as generally it should be for longer periods.

2x per week ski ~30min adding 5min EOW 2x per week run, starting with loaded walking OR interval based running (30/30 then 60/30 then 90/30) progressing when you can complete the target duration while staying in zone-2 Will help upper gymnastics and bodyweight movements As a fellow heavier athlete (though not AS heavy) I’d suggest using an AAR to reduce impact from running

Start with loaded walking! You should be able to get into zone-2 with a brisk walk and weighted vest or ruck. Train that for a few weeks until you’re not able to get into zone-2 no matter how fast you walk…then you should be ready for some run-walk intervals without load!

Assuming you've got the time and never spent any time building a longer endurance base, absolutely. The only issue I've personally found with doing zone-2 work on my recovery day is that depending on which modality I choose... it can definitely affect training and recovery the next day. With that said, I think "just getting it in" is probably most important here.

I am going to leave this question for our next episode. I actually think Kyle and I can have a good discussion on how to assess, implement, and improve.

Polar H10 chest strap, connects via Bluetooth to your phone via polar app.

Can you clarify this -- we're filming follow-up tomorrow and I'd like to be able to address this, but not 100% sure what you mean

@@kyleruth5145 if it actually works, potentially a good way for people with limited time to hit accessories and zone 2 at the same time?

This is a great question, the simple answer is that while you are in zone-2, you’re not likely to get the type of adaptations you want out of something that intermittent. This is a fairly complex physiology discussion and we will have to address this in more detail on our follow up podcast.

1. To be clear here - 2.5hrs is a min effective dose to drive the local and central adaptations that we're looking for from zone-2 work. For an elite athlete (assuming they are a CF athlete) doing 10+ sessions per week -- that 60min zone-2 session on their recovery day is like a drop-in the bucket in terms of adaptation and signaling, it is VERY unlikely that a dose that small is going to impact an elite-athlete's endurance capacity to much of a degree. Not saying that it is a waste of time because for them, depending on where they are at in their periodization that could simply be a maintenance dose. 2. I don't know if I said that zone-2 works because the heart is working at a certain HR -- it has MUCH more to do with the rate of oxygen utilization and delivery in the working tissues AND ensuring that the heart is able to fill completely between beats. So while there isn't really a magic HR that we need to maintain, it is important to regulate intensity so that the above conditions are met. Regarding erg selection - I agree with you here (and even mentioned this in the follow up podcast that releases this week) that "the heart doesn't know what modality you choose". Instead we talked about the fact that you should choose an erg that is going to have the best transfer over to your "weaknesses" in the sport. For me that revolved around basic BODYWEIGHT movements like: DU's, burpees, box jumps, etc -- all of which you can reasonably expect to see some carry-over from running. I would not give this as a blanket recommendation -- I coach a number of athletes who are smaller with strength limitations all of which I have use the rower (or ski-erg depending on priorities) for their endurance work. 3. I addressed this in the follow up podcast as well - you CAN break this up even into 3-6 x 10min segments throughout the day -- some is better than none. HOWEVER from an ideal perspective longer continuous chunks are best. I tried to make this clear in the follow up that I chose 30min segments based on my schedule and time availability, NOT because I thought this was superior to longer continuous duration pieces. 4. This is based on hands on experience coaching athletes in CrossFit at the regional-semi to games level over the last 12 years. However I want to point out that the 2.5hr figure is a "minimum effective dose" -- a good friend of mine who is a 7x CF games qualifier, including top-10 appearances reached out after the podcast and let me know that during his off-season he is doing upward of 7+ hrs / week of zone-2 in addition to basic strength and gymnastics progressions -- cutting that back to about 1/2 of that volume during taper for semi-finals. So keep in mind that 2.5hr figure was literally meant to be a minimum effective dose not a "do this an you'll be elite" type thing.

haha one might help the other.

Hopefully you got something out of the 90 seconds!

Sorry, we will work on it. My mom taught me better than this.

Dude…there are 168 hours in a week, if you sleep 8hrs per night that’s 56hrs per week and work 50hrs per week…that leaves you with ONLY 62 hours left in the week. I suggested 2.5hrs of zone-2 PER WEEK as a target volume, which leaves you with 59.5hrs to watch KZfaq and make snarky comments. Plenty of time. Actually you could watch KZfaq videos WHILE you did your zone-2, so you have that time back.

@@kyleruth5145 man there are kids and old parents and weightlifting and gymnastics and a business , and, and, and….and at the end of the day a privileged guys like you pop up and tell me: ‚it‘s excuses everybody has 3 hours a week.‘ Thanks.

​@Kyle Ruth you definitely don't work or have a family

Lol