Translating the Book of Mormon with Stones in a Hat?

Рет қаралды 3,633

7 ай бұрын

If we had video footage of the translation process of The Book of Mormon, what would we see? What would we actually watch Joseph Smith do during a translation session? Now, of course, we don’t have such video footage, but we do have perhaps the next best thing: multiple eyewitness accounts of those who saw the process up close, firsthand. And what they said they saw was a decidedly nonsecular, nonacademic, one-of-a-kind translation method involving a young, 22- and 23-year-old Joseph Smith looking at seer stones in a hat, a process many of these witnesses described as, “truly miraculous.” In today’s episode we take a closer look at what we can know from the historical record about Joseph Smith’s translation process. We’ll also briefly explore the New England subculture in Joseph’s day in which some believed that people with certain spiritual gifts could use special objects, like seer stones or divining rods, to channel to divine power to do things like find lost objects or find underground water sources. We’ll also discuss the fascinating details of what we know about how and when Joseph came upon two seer stones in addition to those that came with the plates and were bound together in silver bows, and what we know about his using these during the Book of Mormon translation.
This is the third episode of our 6-part podcast series on the translation of the Book of Mormon. For a full transcript of this episode, as well as show notes and additional resources, visit our website at doctrineandcovenantscentral.o...
You can also subscribe to our podcast via Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, and other platforms, and follow us on popular social media platforms. Visit linktr.ee/churchhistorymatters to connect with us.
Originally published April 25, 2023
DISCLAIMER: While we try very hard to be historically and doctrinally accurate in what we say on this podcast, please remember that all views expressed in this and every episode are our views alone, and do not necessarily reflect the views of Scripture Central or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Пікірлер: 26

@bartonbagnes4605 7 ай бұрын

You didn't mention that the first translation of The Book Of Mormon was in a form of english that hadn't been written or spoken in well over a hundred years at the time, it was perfectly proper grammar from the 1400s to about 1550A.D. Neither did you mention that it wasn't a trail, just a meeting to determine if the law suit had any merit, which it was determined it didn't. Nor did you mention that the four accounts of what happened at this meeting were written 30-50 years afterwards by men openly hostile to the Smith family and The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter-day Saints, and contradict each other as well. And you didn't mention that a few months before interview with Emma, Joseph said in a sermon that he was going to rewrite the Church's history. All of these are rather key information.

@dr33776 7 ай бұрын

What about the Charles Anthon letters refuting the Martin Harris visit described in JS-History?

@bartonbagnes4605 7 ай бұрын

@@dr33776 Which part? That they ever came to him in the first place? That they ever showed him characters? That he ever affirmed that the were true characters of certain known ancient scripts? Or that he ever said that the translations were correct? For the characters have been identified as Demotic and Hieratic Egyptian characters, and Yucatecan Mayan characters, some of which have been shown to mean exactly what he said, other have yet to be shown used for what he said, but it says in The Book Of Mormon "The characters which are called among us the reformed Egyptian, handed down and altered by us, according to our manner of speech." But if Joseph Smith Jr. was making up his own characters, none of them should have matched up with real Egyptian characters, let alone what they meant, even if he only copied them from Egyptian artifacts, he shouldn't have gotten any of the translations correct, that would take a bigger miracle than God just giving him the translation.

@joefromkokimo 5 ай бұрын

This is great. Can you cover the issue of the the egyptologists that came together and said the facsimile was a Funery scroll

@ShonnaJohnson-ws7wk Ай бұрын

Just a question. If JS put a stone or the interpreters into a hat. What did he need the plates for?

@juliabendixen2184 6 ай бұрын

I appreciate the honesty around the 30 minute mark. :)

@forzion1894 6 ай бұрын

Unfortunately, while it includes much useful information, the basic premise of this video is incorrect. Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery frequently and consistently stated that the translation came from the plates using the Jaredite/Nephite interpreters (often referred to as the Urim and Thummim) which were deposited with the plates and which God prepared for the plates' translation (JS-H 1:35). Joseph had a seer stone, but only used it to demonstrate the real Urim & Thummim, which he was forbidden to show to others (JS-H 1:42). Neither Joseph or Oliver ever mentioned the use of a seer stone. There are a few accounts from others of Joseph using the seer stone in the hat. However, when examined critically in their full historical context, these seer stone accounts can all be seen to be late, secondhand or otherwise unreliable. See the new book "By Means of the Urim & Thummim: Restoring Translation to the Restoration" for a full, faithful and accurate account of the translation of the Book of Mormon.

@carlday30 6 ай бұрын

It sounds like you did not watch the entire video at all. That is the very point they make several times.

@hg4144 Ай бұрын

Well said..

@RyanMercer 7 ай бұрын

👍

@UtahKent 6 ай бұрын

Multiple references by more than one witness to the hat. Remember the reference to Joseph being fatigued by the size and use of the Nephite interpreter. Remember the story published in the Millenial Star of Martin Harris replacing Joseph's stone causing Joseph to be unable to translate. Remember the reference to "the director" being placed in the hat. Remember the publisher news story of "spectacles" being placed in the hat. If the "interpreter" was too big to fit Joseph's face, would it fit inside his hat? Why would Joseph give Oliver the brown stone unless it had particular significance and had fulfilled its purpose. It is reasonable to believe both instruments were used at some point. Don't entirely throw out everything from witnesses that don't fit your paradigm. Find the common elements then the associations of the variations. That's how real investigation works.

@mcsq5899 6 ай бұрын

Incorrect details lead to false conclusions.

@cabarete2003 7 ай бұрын

The Bushman Tale. Seems like this should be taught as theory, not fact.

@carlday30 6 ай бұрын

"Theory" vs. "fact" is a false dichotomy used by people with very black-and-white thinking. It is a fact that all the witnesses said what they said about the process. The "theory" comes in when you start deciding which witnesses to believe or not, but you better have a very good reason for what you decide. I think the authors of this video were appropriately tentative in starting their conclusions-or their decision to withhold judgment-and gave very good reasons for them.

@raymondswenson1268 4 ай бұрын

We can read the entire Book of Mormon from a smartphone that fits in the top of an inverted hat. Do you not believe that God can duplicate that technology?

@iamanempoweredone6064 7 ай бұрын

Well we can certainly surmise us that the stones JS used to aid in receiving revelation were inferior to the white stones given to the righteous as stated in the book of revelations.

@michaelhutchings6602 7 ай бұрын

>51 minute video posted 7 minutes ago >you made a comment about it 4 minutes ago hmmmmm

@RecoveringUGrad 7 ай бұрын

Well since you appear only to be trolling and mocking things, I don’t have to surmise you won’t be among those getting a white stone. By your fruits are you known. You’ve also been called out as a liar.

@hg4144 Ай бұрын

Shameful…. How can you parrot anti Mormon arguments. Joseph used the urim and thummim. I believe Joseph.

@SteveCarrDrivesAPrius 7 ай бұрын

It was totally the Thurmin and Umer. Yeah whatever they called it.

@JD-pr1et 7 ай бұрын

Urim and Thummim.

@dr33776 7 ай бұрын

You weren't there and there are more corroborating statements saying he used the stone in the hat rather than the U&T

@JD-pr1et 7 ай бұрын

@@dr33776 Not really, Emma when she had dementia, a second hand one allegedly from Martin Harris after he fell and struck his head, a late one from David Whitmer, and a whole lot of them in the antichrist literature.

@SteveCarrDrivesAPrius 7 ай бұрын

It was totally the Halahona and Thraminn & Ruinem.