People don't understand just how valuable that disadvantage is.

hex doesn't work on saving throws, only ability checks. Telekentic: the target must succeed on a Strength saving throw (DC 8 + your proficiency bonus + the ability modifier of the score increased by this feat) or be moved 5 feet toward or away from you. A creature can willingly fail this save. hex: The target has disadvantage on ability checks made with the chosen ability. bestow curse: While Cursed, the target has disadvantage on Ability Checks and Saving Throws made with that ability score. So whilst it doesn't work with telekentic, it does work with a normal grapple as that uses an ability check

@@asdfniofanuiafabuiohui3977 this does work with the telekinesis spell, as described in the video, but you’re right that the feat would not benefit

Why in the shit does it say your comment is from 3 weeks ago

@@ominous5409 patreon early release

You can't stop the beat.

@@TreantmonksTemple In party with a fighter, a paladin and a rogue. That adult red dragon lasted a whole turn.

You're welcome. I hope it met your request.

@@TreantmonksTemple exactly what I was looking for.

And he was quite lucky somewhat in that encounter. Monster has +9 Str, so even with advantage it could get out from Telekinesis

Read the second paragraph of Storm Rune. When you invoke the Rune you can give any Attack, Save, or Check in 60ft Advantage or Disadvantage as a reaction for 1 minute. It's super powerful.

@@blalockj7788 Damn Storm Rune's good. Yup I hadn't considered that far, thank you!

I also wonder why Rak just sat there and took it. Why not ready an action to dispel on the mage when he peeks around the corner? Or use his shapechange ability to turn into a humanoid with a teleport spell, or a Globe of Invulnerability (arguably, RAW, Rak would gain the spellcasting ability of Halaster, if he chose to change shape into Halaster).

I play mostly on VTT's now, and I don't hide my dice rolls, so they know right away if a creature I'm running uses LR.

I know it effects strategies at our table. I say they use their legendarys others DMs don't. While they don't necessarily go for a burn their legendarys strategy either way they factor it in and are more willing to use spells as at least know they burned the legendary. High damage save for half spells for example being used, if they use it fine they burn a use, if not hey I did high damage. And for a boss losing over 10% of its HP from a spell might be a good reason to, ignore that too many times and you are out of HP.

When I'm DMing, I always make it clear when a creature uses Legendary Resistance. Having your stuff not work feels bad, so it's important to make it clear to my players that their spell or ability did do something - it forced the enemy to spend a resource. It lets them feel like they're making progress against the enemy, even if they didn't do damage. It also helps them figure out which saves to target - a creature that keeps passing Dex saves naturally should probably not be Fireballed again, but a creature with 10 Dex who has to use Legendary Resistance each time is quite a different story.

I only announce if the creature passed the save or not. I find it discourages this whole attitude of trying to whittle down legendary resistances before trying all their save or suck spells and instead focus on other ways to help the party. Instead of trying to cheapen the boss encounter by polymorphing them, they might instead use wall of fire which save or not will still do something, or they might polymorph another player into a giant ape, all a lot more interesting than wasting resources whittling down LR's just to turn it into a newt by the time the battle was pretty much over anyway.

The group I play with doesn't state that. It's just Player A: "Duke NecroPants needs a 37 to save against my Hedge of Hedgehogs!" DM: "Duke NecroPants passes through the Hedge of Hedgehogs, and appears to suffer no damage!" Player B: "Dang, this guy must have some legendary resistances!" It feels more like an epic story that way, to me. There are some hints about things ("Duke NecroPants gasps as the fireball engulfs him, and as the smoke and ash clears, you can see his clothing is clearly scorched, and large areas of skin are flaking off like a phone book in a fireplace."), but we avoid technical talk as much as we can.

I would have!

That would have been a good strategy. I guess the DM didn't think about it at the time (neither did I)

I agree

That's an encounter design issue imo. I'm a Pathfinder GM so the numbers get a bit swingier but the same logic applies - the biggest threat will get shut down the quickest, players aren't idiots, it doesn't matter what you do they're going to go all-in on the most threatening monster and either delete it or nullify it as quickly as possible. My solutions have been: - Divide the power budget of the encounter between 2+ big threats. This is the obvious solution, it's harder to disable 2 weaker creatures in 1 turn than it is to shut down a single stronger one. Works better in Pathfinder where moving cuts into your attacks. - Make sure the minions have scary effects. Will the party nova the Lich when his Wight minions inflict max hp drain and will die a whole lot faster? 5e doesn't have many nasty long-term debuffs like other editions to my knowledge so your mileage may vary here, Wights with level drain tend to attract a lot of fire. - Dedicated bodyguard minions. Shield Guardian is the obvious one here but a cleric/paladin healbot/buffbot can work too, I'm sure you can work out other options. These creatures can be fairy individually weak so as not to take up too much of the encounter's power budget. - Compound encounters. This is my personal favourite. Have an encounter that's secretly 2 or more encounters. You start with 1 encounter worth of enemies then as soon as that one stops being a threat the second one busts down the door and joins in, or you put it on a timer so the party knows they need to burn resources to end the first fight quickly or things will escalate to unmanageable levels when the 2nd group joins. This is the best way I've found to get more encounters in per long rest.

I think it sort of depends on the odds. In say highish level 2e where a boss might have magic resistance of 50% and make their saves on a 5, it never came across as boring in my experience. It was rare enough that everyone had a blast due to the how unlikely it was. It was the type of thing people would mention years later rare. Now in 5e where something like bigbys or telekinesis is a auto win against say something like a demi-lich its not that fun. Having bigbys prepared isn't some weird i can't believe that spell worked eureka moment or a particularly clever tactic, its a great spell on its own and its obvious a tiny skull would be weak vs it. That kind of ends up boring. Though the demi-lich is pretty poorly designed for a supposedly CR 18 creature imo.

@@aurtosebaelheim5942 There is this fantasy of the party working together to fell a single massive monster that I think D&D/Pathfinder just really don't do very well... which is a problem: People want to fight the dragon, Not the dragon, six kobolds and a human cultist wizard. I completely agree that smart encounter design makes legendary resistance less necessary, but sometimes we just want the dramatic boss fight. Dragons, Beholders, The Tarrasque... I mean if the cult leader throws himself into the sacrifical pit to summon a demon prince I think it'd be pretty anticlimactic for the wizard to just cast Banishment. These are the times where I think Legendary Resistance is appropriate.

@@TreantmonksTemple I wish more high level spells did something on a save, like Feeblemind. No matter how little it is, it should do something!

A more direct option would be to have Legendary Resistance cost HP instead of being "x/day", that way everyone is whittling away at the same pool

@@HouseLyrander For sure. It is already very close to this in reality, as LR has an HP tax of 10/20/30 hp as per the DMG's chapter on making monsters.

Sounds like Pathfinder 2e with Incapacitate and it also removed save or die spells too by having 4 stages of success with Critical Success and Critical Fail on saves.

Thats why I like legendary resistance. I HATE magic resistance being on top of that though, just increase their save DC by 3 and remove magic resistance.

@@archmagemc3561 you sound like you HATE enemies succeeding on saving throws. Also wouldn’t that DEcrease a DC?

But that's how the game has variety, because so many save-or-suck spells are so much more powerful than anything else. I mean at least a third of them can just end the encounter then and there if you're fighting a single enemy. At which point what was the point of going to the ice cream shop? IMO the issue is much more how DMs design and run combat. I've been DMing for 1.5 years now continuously on a West Marches server, and I've finally figured out how to design a good combat encounter that is satisfying and enjoyable to both casters and martials. A single BBEG is not a good combat encounter, nor is a single BBEG with a bunch of minions, but this is counter intuitive because all the TV shows and books and legends and stories we so often draw inspiration from all come down to the mano-e-mano heros vs the BBEG - so IME most DMs design combat encounters with one BBEG, or maybe one BBEG and a bunch of minions it's best to just ignore. Good satisfying combat encounters for Tier 2 and higher of 5e NEED to contain at least 3 different types of enemies: 1) Grunts with teeth - these guys should be CR 1-3 (or higher for Tier 3+), they should be simple for the DM to run (1 type of attack and 1 special ability) and have low saving throws BUT deal enough damage that the party can't just ignore them. 2) 1-3 Simple Casters - these should be about the same level as the party, have 2-3 go-to spells, some utility spells to rescue allies hit by control effects, and one "spell like special ability", bonus points if you give each of them a theme. The casters should be of CR equal to party level or 1-2 points below. 3) BBEG - they should "feel" like a Gish with some kind of special movement, melee, and ranged options. Depending on their identity they should lean into a different flavour / style - e.g. a more caster-y gish, a more melee gish, or an archer-y gish. The BBEG should be CR 2-3 points above the party level. Finally include interesting terrain for the encounter. This terrain should offer a way for both villains and heroes to get full cover from some of their enemies but not all of them.

@@agilemind6241 Don't forget to mention there should be less casters than grunts, unless the casters are the grunts, at which point you have far, far less grunts than casters. And while you can add more and more grunts, casters you gotta be careful with since enough casters and you shut down the party.

We discussed whether dispel on himself would end the effect. The DM decided that the telekinesis comes from the caster...but could have ruled the other way just as easily.

​@@TreantmonksTemple I was wondering the same thing. I could go either way on that, myself. On the one hand, the spell reads like it gives the caster telekinetic powers (and the caster is the target). On the other, those powers are "magic affecting a target". Also, on the one hand, it says you have to see the target to affect it, but it's not clear if you have to keep it in view at all. It's possible you might not have to even pop out every round to maintain the contest. (I could go either way on that point too). Although if you _do_ need to pop into view on your turn to renew the spell, Rak would have been better off readying Dispel Magic to cast at you, since he could do little else. Alternatively, he could have Shape-Changed into a Spirit Troll (a giant), which is immune to Restrained. That would have helped forestall the inevitable a little. Maybe make the fight slightly more interesting. Alternatives include a Cloud Giant or Githyanki Gish (misty step 3/day from innate spells). Githyanki Enlightened (teleport and plane shift 1/day innate). etc

Every round? Heck, use it on every attack. At 5th level, is a monk is willing to spend the 5 Ki necessary, it can force 4 Con saves on one target (assuming all 4 attacks hit) in the same round. And if the opponent chooses to let any of those stuns through it is as good as dead. I mean sure, most BBEGs have good Con saves, so it probably isn't going to fail all 4 saves, but even getting rid of 1 or 2 of its LRs is a huge boon to the Spellcasters.

My pleasure!

Why pass without trace?

@@Lycaon1765 Pass without Trace basically gives everyone in your party the ability to almost always surprise an enemy as long as there are places to hide (so like a dungeon or forest or smth). No save or anything cause its vs passive perception, so everyone gets a free turn!

I mean that's kinda A point of it no ? It's pretty anticlimatic if you turn Lich into sheep due to game mechanics allowing some spellcasters to break the game with immposible saving throws. If your dm is good, he will allow spells like bane or whatever not gamebreaking to hit despite legendary resistence. Rule was made to create saveproof in rulebooks instead of dm needing to make excuses. It's perfectly fine as it is right now due to written rule - creature can choose, and 3 chances are ok number if players rly want to role Play that way.

It really depends on the game master. In major "boss monster" encounters where there is only one or possibly two targets I"ll tend to apply legendary resistances: This is a big moment, I don't need it to land with a thud because my boss monster failed a con save against quivering palm on their first turn. That being said, I'm very particular about the kinds of effects that I burn legendary resistance on. I'll let spells like Polymorph and Banishment rock: These spells are only moving the fight forward in time (Even if the creature is extraplanar, it'll find it's way back and it'll have a grudge)... but spells like Hold Monster that give the PCs potentially multiple free turns to wail on this thing with free crits can do far more damage. I'm more worried about Stunning Strike than Mind Whip. While personally I would rather have multiple minions in play alongside the boss monster, I also understand the game is Dungeons and Dragons. Not Dungeons, Dragons, and the assorted lackies that the dragon has amassed to make the encounter more interesting. There is a fantasy of the one party of brave adventurers against a singular, powerful monster that is attractive, and that's what legendary resistance is around to preserve. (Also you need a *really* big bad guy to make 1v4 a challenge in D&D 5e)

Deserved a full video!

@@Adurnis my question was about Crusader's Mantle on Conjure Animals or other summons

The Monk doesn't even need to multi-class. Starting at 5th level a Monk can force 4 Con saves against a single target in 1 round, assuming all 4 of their attacks hit. (Does burn 5 of their Ki points though.)

@@johncox7169 a multiclass works better. For 3 fighter levels you get 2 additional attacks from action surge and 4 superiority die which can target better saving throws (strength or wisdom) which can complement the monks con saving throws. 4 battlemaster die for three levels is arguably better than gaining 3 ki for three monk levels besides the other benefits. Could even be 5 if you use superior technique. However I think going Open Hand Monk would be a solid option as flurry of blows can add another two saving throws to the mix.

@@reespewa Open Hand Monk + 3-Battlemaster can dish out an ungodly number of saving throws in one round if they want to.

@@agilemind6241 yep! I made this point on an earlier reply. I think a way to push it further is with three levels of dread ambusher for the initiative bonus (hit the enemy before your allies) and get the extra two attacks with action surge. Now it's starting to look like a full build!

Spike growth isn't strength saves?

@@CharalamposKoundourakis but telekinesis spell is a str check.

@@cham888 Aha! To break free!

That would be pretty tough for some classes. Sorcerers are the first class to come to mind.

Artificer - Battlesmith Barbarian - you're stuck, everything is tied to rage and rage is LR Bard - Swords Bard or Valor Bard, throw up single concentration spell then go for weapon attacks - preferably bows Cleric - Arcana get some decent cantrips to spam plus a long-lasting CD, or Nature for Thorn Whip + Spirit Guardians, or Twilight b/c CD is all you ever need to be as powerful as most other characters. Druid - Moon and go Wildshape-martial or Shepherd and max your concentration to keep summons around as long as possible. Fighter - Battlemaster - everything comes back on a SR Monk - any everything comes back on a SR Paladin - Conquest use that fear aura CD then pick them off one by one with standard melee attacks Ranger - Hunter - most of your features are unlimited Rogue - any except Phantom/Tickster all of their features are always on. (Swashbuckler is the best) Sorcerer - Wild Magic - get can get a lot of stuff back from Wild Magic Surges from Tides of Chaos to sorcery points Warlock - any focus on EB and concentration spells Wizard - Enchantment - they get good non-spell abilities that don't run out.

@@TreantmonksTemple I think it would probably come down to Feats like Healer, Inspiring leader, and may even require some feats like the Abberant Dragonmark feat. That way you at least feel like you're actively contributing every time you short rest. The other half of it would probably be using races that have abilities that recharge on a short rest, like the pre Monsters of the Multiverse version of the Firbolg

Yep, I answered your question as to why Maze wasn't featured at 7:00

@@TreantmonksTemple okay, thank you! Well, I'll just leave the comment up, in case anyone hasn't stumbled upon Maze yet. Thanks again, and keep up the amazing work!

Those still have to be your higher level slots. As a gm I never waste my legendary resistance on low level spells

@@conradkorbol So not even on a low level spell that disables the creature? Like hideous laughter or tasha's mind whip?

Or a Monk can burn through all 3 resistances in 1 turn, because no DM is going to let Stunning Strike go through without resisting it. Yes, the BBEG gets to save and will probably make a couple of saves without burning a LR, but it is still using up a couple of LRs, and the Monk is still doing damage with her attacks, so win/win for the party. And if the party gets really lucky, and the BBEG fails all 4 saves that the Monk can force in a round, then it is Stunned, and the party destroys it.

@@johncox7169 Good luck actually breaking 3 resistances and getting them to fail a 4th save with your 13 DC.

@@Kitusser You would be surprised how often I successfully stun things with my 14 DC.

I've been playing more grapplers lately and LOVE IT

Grappling has to be the most underrated action in 5e. It can be so powerful it's not even funny, if comboed with Silence you can cripple even mages.

Don't expect Treantmonk to understand that multiple characters can force a monster into saving throws or that monks have something strong about them. It's all about the one wizard.

@@Sulicius To the contrary he understands fully but the video can't make all the assumptions that your group will be built in this way. He is putting out information based on the things he can account for and control. Party makeup is rarely in the control of a single player. Still it's a useful thought to put out there if one digs deeper than the video and starts reading the comments.

It is 100% metagaming. Using out of game knowledge to change the way your character acts.

@@Sulicius You can justify it in character. I imagine in every wizard's academy and abbey they tell young potential spellcasters of creatures that are beyond mortal magic, that magic simply does not harm them. (And I mean, how many mages have tried enough to break through all three legendary resistances and lived?) While the people in the universe can't explain it, they are playing by D&D rules, so the implications of these rules are known to them. Changing your behavior to adapt to the rules of the game is not metagaming.

@@kevingriffith6011 sure, and your DM will be very happy you chose to bullshit your way out of it. You are not looking for a way to roleplay your character, you are looking for a way to use out of game knowledge to optimize your character's choices. Wouldn't that just make a wizard quit that school and pick up a sword if magic is useless against such monsters? Legendary Resistance are not a perfect solution, I agree, but if you ruin your DM's fun on purpose, you're forgetting they are a player too. If you want a "justification war", the DM wins, because that's what the rulebooks told them is their right. Just have fun with the game. Play dynamic, focus on the feeling and the social part, experiment with tactics.

@@Sulicius "Wouldn't that make a wizard quit that school and pick up a sword" Has the practice of wrestling died out because we don't stand a chance in a wrestling match with a gorilla? The definition of what is and isn't metagaming is going to change from table to table. I get that. As a GM I tend to subscribe to the same way of thinking about it as Matt Colville (he did a good video on it)... I'm not going to penalize my players for not wanting to waste turns doing things they already know aren't going to work. "Figure out legendary resistance" isn't the test, "Defeat the dragon" is. I'll absolutely call out "your character doesn't know that" if... say... a PC attacks someone out of nowhere because another PC in a different room learned that random someone was actually a doppelganger. That being said, I get where you're coming from. It can be frustrating when you want an RP focused game and your players came looking for Warhammer Quest. In the rare times I get to play (life of a forever DM and all that) I tend to mess around more than I should because I actually *do* have metagame knowledge that I don't want to leverage. It really depends on your table. Some tables you can get away with doing that, where others wasting even a single action could mean the death of one or more PCs.

@@kevingriffith6011 I literally tell my Chronurgy Wizard when a monster has legendary resistance so I don’t break his heart every boss fight. I want there to be a better way, I don’t want to watch my players roll dice and don’t allow my dragon to roll dice. Don’t wr all want drama? Don’t we all want edge-of-your-seat excitement? Optimizers are not looking for that. They want to, as Matt described it: solve D&D. They don’t want to defeat the dragon, they don’t care about it being a dragon. They just want themselves to be effective with every turn and make THE difference in every fight. As a DM I waste my monster’s turns ALL THE TIME. Because that is what makes it fun to the players. Last Wednesday a monster tried to fear the 19th level Conquest Paladin who has been immune to fear for over 10 levels. That is how the game is supposed to work. Your PC learns from experience, sure. They might learn that dragons are resilient to magic. They pc’s never learn how magic resistance works, because they never learn the word “hit points”. A group of PC’s is incredibly tough, and a tactical party can survive far more than any WotC combat building rules advise. Players want to win a combat in 1 turn, a DM should never.

Introducing legendary resistance before the level 9 mark is not good in my opinion. There are plenty of ways to get around early control spells. Hold person? Add more people. Slow? Have them surrounded so it can’t target but a few. If you’re really having trouble include spellcasters with counterspell or dispel magic (not too many, enough that the party can play around, but is forced to think a lot more). Countering in other ways will always be more enjoyable that your first spell just not working.

also due to lower proficiency and unmaxed stats, DC's are pretty low and slots are limited at that level, so it kinda sucks when one of your few successes get bypassed.

Expensive twin though. 5 sorcery points.

@@TreantmonksTemple It is a boss battle move post 10th level and worth it. Converting 2 level slots for more points at the post 10th levels is rarely an issue.

The problem with cloudkill is it moves each round

@@TreantmonksTemple depends on the DM interpretation if that's solvable. We rule it as moving away from the caster at that instance. So if the caster can run in big circles back and forth they can keep it wobbling back and forth in one spot.

Use Sickening Radiance. Exhaustion level on a failed save is a killer. Lierally

Full cover stops all spells as per the spellcasting rules.

Legendary actions tend to be way more fun on both sides, I do recommend them for lower level bosses.

Also the examples are all concentration spells, so baddie with legendary resistances and Bob, the guy who's pretty ok at his bow, can still wreck these plans.

Death by exhaustion. Nice.

Broken record.

I likely will in not too long.

The base 6 inch thick wall of stone has 180 hp per 10 foot section. (Edit: The 30 hp is per inch of thickness)

@@TreantmonksTemple OH i missed that!!!! ... and it totally makes sense. Amazing, thank you!!!

There were lots of spells that are good against legendary creatures I didn't mention. Would have been a looooong video.

misty step/far step have a range of self with a sight requisite and Wall of Force is invisible, so no line of effect issues. Dimension door reads like it ignores cover and only requires you visualize the coordinates you want. A spell like blink or etherealness would be blocked due to blocking ethereal travel.