and james white Won

@Thy word is light Yep.

@@ManlyServant I don’t know about that the three different minds was Problematic and I don’t believe is traditional theology. But what do I know I was just trying to keep up.

@@veiltricks2947 I agree. James White speaks quickly. Three minds is problematic. I believe in three, even four, men each having their own individual mind. John 5:21 the Father decides whom he will raise; the Son decides whom he will raise; 1st Corinthians 2:9-11 the Father sends his Spirit to search out the things the Father has prepared for them that love him and then the Spirit knows those things of the Father. (Had the Spirit been God he wouldn’t have had to search to know the things God the Father had prepared.) The spirit of Jesus Christ was learning the things of Jesus 1st Corinthians 2:11(1) before the Father (God) gave Jesus the Spirit (Jesus wouldn’t have been given what he had had.).

Indeed, the moderator is an atheist who was a parliamentarian with the Australian legislature, which demonstrates that he had no dog in the hunt. After the debate, he told Elder Perkins that he considered him the clear winner.

This is a polytheistic statement

That’s the teaching of the anti-Christ.

Well done Dr James. ALL GLORY TO THE ONE AND ONLY TRIUNE GOD YHWH 🔥🙏🏽

Erline Hooten it’s essential to honor (worship) the two of them - Father and the Son. John 17:3 - BUT Also to acknowledge the three of them - Father, Son, and Spirit - to following the teachings of Jesus Christ John 16:13, Acts 1:8, 19:3-6.

@@daraki1 Polytheism is Biblical From Everlasting, From The Beginning - two are each ‘from everlasting’ Psalm 90:2 (God, the God John 1:1b); Micah 5:2 (Messiah(Jesus), the Word). the Holy Spirit of God is the spirit of man within the Father’s God material Spirit body 1st Corinthians 2:9-11, John 8:17-18.

Trinitarian doctrine is still incorrect. There is a different doctrine from Trinitarian and Modalism! Its called the Godhead. Father is the soul, Son is the body, and Holy Ghost is the Spirit. Three parts but one God.

Jesus is the creator John 1:1 , at what point is the trinity incorrect? Do you not believe in Jesus prior to the incarnation?@@IsaacNelson54

@@IsaacNelson54that’s called partialism and is refuted by the text of scripture. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are entirely God themselves. The Son is not merely part of God. God functions as one though. There are three real persons (not parts) that make up one essence, God.

@@carsonsnavely4641 Idolatry.

@@IsaacNelson54 to believe that Jesus was fully God is idolatry? How so?

I think the only thing James White knows is that he has to make people believe in three Gods instead of ONE.

@@olivanaqura5785 , nope.

@@olivanaqura5785 very true

@@olivanaqura5785 small minds only see it as 3 gods. Read your bible again.

@@olivanaqura5785 nope 2x

Grew up with all Oneness Pentecostal uncles as preachers. So so thankful to the Lord for pulling me out of that heresy by the Grace of God. The fruit of the spirit is completely absent there. All emotional based spiritual superiority.

You are victim of catholic theology

Who coined the word trinitas or trinity and who formulated the doctrine of the trinity?

@@wjdyr6261 The word itself is just that, a word given for the divine being (i.e., God) as he described in the Bible. The doctrine comes straight from the pages of the Bible, not man. I recommend "The Forgotten Trinity" by James White. It will help you understand the way the doctrine was dealt with throughout the ages.

@dabish2888 Thanks, but I don't read Bernard or White. The trinity isn't forgotten at all because Steven Gill and Nathaniel Urshan have excellent videos about the origin of the Trinity doctrine. In God's own personal doctrine of himself, he's always stated that he is an absolute numerical one, and he's alone, unique, and without equal. The trinity doctrine contradicts this.

Amen, God bless u Tony

If that's been your experience, I am sorry it has been that way. My experience has been the opposite. Trinitarians are generally very loving until they are confronted with the very real logical difficulties of the doctrine of the Trinity (DT). When they realize that there are logical contradictions in their profession, I've seen them get frustrated, angry, defensive and verbally abusive. Normally, people get defensive when they lack the argumentative tools to properly counter a competing claim. They also get defensive when they're more interested in defending their tradition than they are in pursuing truth. And that goes for all sides of the debate. The old observation rings true here: In a controversy, the instant you feel anger, you have ceased striving for the truth and have begun to strive for yourself. A trinitarian drove by our church and contacted me about the doctrine of Oneness. He couldn't believe that anybody could reject such an obviously clear biblical doctrine as the Trinity. I assured him that I was once a trinitarian and that I was thoroughly familiar with the prooftexts and arguments for the DT, and that if he would just grant me five minutes, without interruption, to explain the Oneness doctrine, he could then rebut my claims and ask any question he'd like. I didn't get but two sentences out of my mouth before he broke his word and repeatedly interrupted me. It got so bad, I had to break off the dialog. I told him that when he got around to keeping his word and give me five minutes of uninterrupted time, I would be more than happy to continue the dialog. That was several years ago. I'm still waiting.

That is probably because they are the real Christians ✝️

Ummm, not exactly, you should do some background research into this debate (he was a total jerk toward Perkins prior to this debate on his podcast). Perkins simply returned the favor in the debate & was not bullied by White.

@@rogerperkins8959are you the roger perkins who debated white?

@@theodoremyers4912 Roger is extremely impolite.

Hi there. While I respect a person’s composure while expressing oneself, that is not a factor in determining the content of what is expressed, to be truth. A very nervous person may have the truth to tell, with a shake in his voice 😊

@@anneviggiano3801 what someone believes is the truth, does not mean it is the truth 🙌 Jesus christ is the truth, and the truth will set you free 😉 ❤

Then you’d hate Jesus and His apostles’ style of preaching...God told His prophets to lift up their voice like a trumpet and spare not! I’m yelling even when I type about Christ!

Lol!

When someone yells, becomes angry, or otherwise attacks a person, it's a very clear sign in a debate that attacker he or she has a weak position. Passion or lack of, does not make a topic correct or reasonable establish it as a fact. Dr. White wasn't trying to win Perkins over, he was winning the listeners over. Perkins was clearly out matched in this debate.

Please distinguish Oneness Pentecostals from regular Pentacostals, who do not subscribe to Modalism/ Sibellian ideas.

Read the bible....the holy ghost meeting in heaven says the saints are shouting.... This is the quietest place you will ever experience according to bro William branham.... Heaven won't be quiet

👏🏾👏🏾

being a "witness" need Self-awareness,therefore Father and Jesus Both Have Their Own Self awareness,therefore 2 Distinct persons

I absolutely love John 8:17-18 because the surest way to quickly shut down any oneness believer or teacher. It leads us straight to the context of what I John 5:7 is truly about. What I John 5:7 is actually saying is that there are 3 WITNESSES in Heaven. 3 that Bare Record!! If there are 3, then they must be separate persons. Christ calls His Father a witness and the Holy Ghost is also a witness! So, the Oneness believers are simply liars, deceived by Satan to say that God does not have a Son. They say the Father put on flesh and, somehow, became His own Son. And the I John 5:10 says that if you don't believe The Father's record, or witness of His own Son, then you have made God a liar! Christians believe in One God and that ONE God is the Father of our Lord, Jesus Christ! Hallelujah!! 🙌🏾

Exactly. That’s proof Christ is separate from the One true God!

@@fitafries7274 yet, Christ shares the Deity of the One true God. Father is Deity and His mother is Humanity.

22👍

@@UNDESPUTEDchamp aargh. Autocorrect strikes again!

Precisely just all over

Josh Drake, if Jesus existed before his birth, did he "pop" cease to exist during g a split second in time while the Holy Spirit place the divine seed in Mary's womb? And did the Holy Spirit become his daddy? No, my friend, you are following false Trinitarian prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing.

@@davidstanton8526 GOD JESUS is ALWAYS OMNIPRESENT GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! REPENT!

​@davidstanton8526 would understanding that changing your opinion?

Yea', the same cross examination where White openly confessed to Perkins that he worships a "God" who (fictitiously) exists as "3 divine individuals, each w. their own SEPARATE CENTERS OF CONSCIOUSNESS apart from the other other 2 divine individuals"? LOL, were we watching the same cross exam? You tritheists are all the same.

James White says >> *3 divine individuals, each with their own separate centers of consciousness?* White won the debate with this confession?? Sounds like proof of *tritheism* which James White championed.

James Morris AMEN! That's it! James White has championed trithiesm! Now all he needs to do is change the name of his book from "The Forgotten Trinity" to "The Forgotten Three Gods".

Lorel Latorilla for my trinitarian bros. Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, Isaiah 46:9 NKJV who was this speaking about?? THE (FATHERRR) ‘Now see that I, even I, am He, And there is no God besides Me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; Nor is there any who can deliver from My hand. Deuteronomy 32:39 NKJV who is that again?? THE FATHERRRR!!!!... “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord , “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord , And besides Me there is no savior. I have declared and saved, I have proclaimed, And there was no foreign god among you; Therefore you are My witnesses,” Says the Lord , “that I am God. Indeed before the day was, I am He; And there is no one who can deliver out of My hand; I work, and who will reverse it?” Thus says the Lord , your Redeemer, The Holy One of Israel: “For your sake I will send to Babylon, And bring them all down as fugitives- The Chaldeans, who rejoice in their ships. I am the Lord , your Holy One, The Creator of Israel, your King.” Isaiah 43:10‭-‬15 NKJV again is the Fatherr!!!! For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6 NKJV whoo???!!!! The FATHERRRR!!!! Jesus answered and said to them, “Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from and where I am going. You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one. It is also written in your law that the testimony of two men is true. I am One who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of Me.” Then they said to Him, “Where is Your Father?” Jesus answered, “You know neither Me nor My Father. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also.” And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” Then Jesus said to them, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things. John 8:14‭-‬15‭, ‬17‭-‬19‭, ‬23‭-‬24‭, ‬28 NKJV whoooo??? THE FATHERRRRR Jesus answered, “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your God. Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word. Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” John 8:54‭-‬55‭, ‬58 NKJV Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves. You have heard Me say to you, ‘I am going away and coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, ‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I. John 14:8‭-‬11‭, ‬28 NKJV whoooo whooo whoo is Jesus class??? THE FATHERRR........ COME ON PEOPLE IT CANT GET MORE CLEARLY THAN THIS...... AND IF YOU NEED MORE EVIDENCE I EM MORE THAN HAPPY TO SHOW YOU. it really shows how jesus is the father and the father is jesus. thats the father and son relationship not that jesus was like" daddy daddy" .... Now see that I, even I, am He, And there is no God besides Me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; Nor is there any who can deliver from My hand. Deuteronomy 32:39 NKJV WAS God speaking to another separate individual when he said " i, even i, am He? “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord , “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord , And besides Me there is no savior. I have declared and saved, I have proclaimed, And there was no foreign god among you; Therefore you are My witnesses,” Says the Lord , “that I am God. Indeed before the day was, I am He; And there is no one who can deliver out of My hand; I work, and who will reverse it?” Thus says the Lord , your Redeemer, The Holy One of Israel: “For your sake I will send to Babylon, And bring them all down as fugitives- The Chaldeans, who rejoice in their ships. I am the Lord , your Holy One, The Creator of Israel, your King.” Isaiah 43:10‭-‬15 NKJV That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Another person?? ummm nooo.. “that I am God. Indeed before the day was, I am He; Another separate individual? umm nooo and if you look close it is the same thing when jesus said "before Abraham was born i AM" . beautiful scriptures. God bless ..

@Roger Perkins first off, if you’re the same person as the Roger Perkins in this debate, then that’s pretty pathetic that you’re so self-conscious of your performance that you come on here to try to continue the debate with KZfaq commenters. Also, sorry buddy, but the Bible teaches one God revealed in three distinct persons. Otherwise your position of modalism is what employs very unnatural readings of the text. For instance, how is it that Jesus has a will separate from the Father’s? How is it Jesus prays to the Father and SHARES his glory before the incarnation? Was he just sharing it with himself? To hold to modalism is to read the text in a very unnatural way. It’s ironic that you’d say singular pronouns naturally implies one person, yet you ignore that Jesus talking to the Father would imply more than one person.

Hmm, was that when White was conceding that God exists as *3 divine individuals, each with their SEPARATE center of consciousness apart from the other 2 divine individuals*?? Yea'...real "brilliance"...LOL.

Roger Perkins-In other words GOD & JESUS cant have individuality ? that what I get from you-sounds like there are some things that are impossible for GOD-how so ?

karlos6628 It is impossible for God to lie! He used a single-person-pronoun when He said that there was absolutely no other deity besides Him! Dis you not hear Perkins in this debate? Here, lemme' make it easy for ya'...How many "persons" does a SINGLE-PERSON-PRONOUN naturally communicate...3 or 1:__________?

@@rogerperkins8959 I guess we didn't have the true teaching of who God is until your Oneness Pentecostal crap came out. I guess God didn't really build his church until the Oneness people got here. Look at the early church look at the apostles every one of them trinitarians. You're a heretic and you are cursed

one unit means one purpose

Right! What any don't understand is that God is One. One as a individual person/Spirit. And God is also a Unit...Father, Son, Holy Spirit. As a Unit, that simply means that they all share in what makes them Deity. However, the Father is the One True authority and, therefore, God. John 17:3 While The Word & Spirit are Deity, possessing the same essence/substance as the Father.

Dante Jager White has more speaking experience than Perkins. It's also obvious that White has an false aura of superiority about him, which I think does more harm than good.

in fairness, I've White speak quite ferverently. I don't think Perkins manner of speaking is a valid way of discerning his intent. He's oneness Pentacostal, it's kinda conditioned in them. yes, I'm trinitarian.

can you not see the spirit on white he looks like( Anton LaVey satan High Priest the writer of the satanic bible) not just in the flesh

Please look it up anybody that looks into the illuminati the beast system will keep running into the oneness truth also

Dante Jager Perkins is used to yelling with energy like that because that’s how Pentecostal preachers are brought up. It comes natural to him when he’s in that position.

yeah it makes DISTINCTion between Him and His Son

He didn’t have a Son til Jesus was born…If he had a Son before that show Scripture that the Father had a Heavenly Child. We can’t change the definition of Son

This verse is not referring to God the Father and God the Son. It's asking "who hath ascended...what is his name, and what is his son's name?" In other words, name the person who has done this, and name his son as well. Well you can't, because no one has. Only God has done these things.

@@samuelrosenbalm No it’s not because that’s what the verse is saying.

@@samuelrosenbalm There was a particular way of speaking in the Jewish culture. This verse is an example of that. Don’t just name the person, also name his son. We can’t read things into the text that aren’t there; that’s what’s weak Sam.

Amen

Isaiah chapter 9 verse 6 Acts 4:12 The blood of the lamb which is Jesus is applied. There is no remission for the tiles of my father your father my son your son. You say the name. You're in. It's real simple. If you want to be stubborn and hard headed. You had your chance. Does your wife have your name. I commend you a lot of people never understand. As much as you do. The early church fathers. You know good and well Peter babtized people in the name of Jesus. Think about it what does Jesus mean. Think about it Matthew was standing right there. Come on out Jesus you don't have to hide bond titles anymore.

William Smith name means by the authority acts 4:7 few verses back you get the context

@William Smith show me in scripture where in the name of Jesus is a formula. You simply miss applied in the name of Jesus. They say it because it’s a command from our Risen Savior.

Personal revelation can be deceptive. We put it to the text next to the clarity of The Holy Scriptures...

Made-up terms and definitions for a made-up god - perfect!

That's not the God of the bible. The one God took on him a human existence, hence he became the Son of God, and who now resides in believers as the Holy Spirit.

Monotheism and trinitarianism In the first place is contradictory.

Man is created in the image of God as a soul conscience and spirit, life and lives in a body as one person with a name, Jesus Christ is the exact representation and image of almighty God, as the power/eternal Spirit of life and the wisdom/divine conscienceness of God and His body is the glorified lamb who sits on the throne of God and created all things by Him for Him and nothing can exist without Jesus christ 🙏 ❤

+chriscox1121 Ummm, then apparently you agree with White's open confession to worshiping a "God" who exists as "3 divine individuals, each with their own separate centers of consciousness apart from the other 2 divine individuals"? LOL - Perhaps it is *you* who needs to go back do more study.

You trinitarians are so funny. God love you trinitarians so much that he "came" for your sins to die. 😂

@@bornagainliars7556 Yes, the Word was God and became flesh and dwelt among us.

@@bornagainliars7556 so youre saying modalists dont need Gods grace?

​​@@rogerperkins89597 years late to the party. You need to study John 1, Colossians 1:15-23, Philippians 2:5-12, Titus 2:13, Hebrews 1, Revelation 1, Genesis 1, Genesis 11, Genesis 19, Joshua 5, Zechariah 3, Isaiah 46, Matthew 3, Matthew 28, etc. The Trinity is blatantly apparent throughout the Bible. To make a mockery of the Holy and Just God is foolish. Jesus is God. The Father is God. The Spirit is God. We try to comprehend using our finite minds and have struggles, but the revelation and testimony scripture gives us irrefutable.

Happy new year!!

Love for James White the man does not translate into love for his arguments. His definition of the Godhead is heretical on trinitarian standards.

@@davidcoleman5860How so, David? I'm curious to hear why.

@@tiptupjr.9073 Three different centers of consciousness in God make a composite Godhead. Partialism was condemned as heresy at the Fourth Lateran Council. A part is anything in a subject, physical or metaphysical, that is less than the whole, the absence of which makes the whole different than what it is. Thus, God is actuated and conserved by something less than what He is in order to be what He is. This renders God dependent on His parts to exist, which of course makes Him logically posterior to His parts. Thus, His parts are more basic and fundamental than He. Since God is ultimate, divine composition must be rejected.

@@davidcoleman5860 I'm not always comfortable with the "person" language in trinitarian discussions but the evidence presented here from Philipians 2, John 1 and 17, and Hebrews 10:5 does seem to indicate that the Word was conscious distinctly from the Father in eternity. I don't know if I like using the term "centers of consciousness" but I don't see another way to meet the evidence presented in White's opening statement. I'm not big on divine simplicity, but many theologians have been able to reconcile three centers of consciousness with God's lack of parts, although I'm not greatly familiar with all of the arguments.

@@tiptupjr.9073 Thanks for your reply. As you can probably guess, we (Oneness Pentecostals) interpret the passages you cite very differently. Be that as it may, I think we can all agree that there are many biblical passages that are difficult to explicate given our theological templates. For me, if a concept is inherently contradictory (not merely difficult to understand), then it is false by definition. And if it can be shown that my concept is self-denying, then I'm obligated to change my template and look at the evidence through a different lens. It is our contention that the doctrine of the Trinity (DT) is inherently contradictory and cannot serve as a template for biblical interpretation. Every version (and there are several) either unavoidably affirms composition in the Godhead or it logically extends to tritheism. Neither option is acceptable given the trinitarian's commitment to monotheism and divine aseity. Perkins is a friend of mine and is unschooled in philosophy, which is why he couldn't fully exploit White's explanation of the Trinity. If they ever debate again (and White has steadfastly refused another debate), Perkins should be better prepared in that regard.

Andre Bentrup Triune God is the truth. One person does not talk to himself

Agreed

@@kiwivalenz431 GOOD POINT!

@@kiwivalenz431 James White said God has 3 centres of consciousness 😅😂 how come 1 God has 3 brains and 3 heads? 😂 thats polytheism!

Even Augustine said the terms “father”and “son” are relative.. To say there are three persons is blasphemous.. we know that there is only one God, one Savior… let’s not create definitions that are confusing. Christ was God manifest in the flesh…God incarnate. Fully God AND fully man. We have our salvation because Christ, our representative as man without sin was God in full and man… not man with a portion of God or God with a portion of man. We, having Christ in us, his Holy Spirit have a portion of God in us , we are NOT God incarnate. We seem to get confused with Jesus’ dual nature. But at the end of the day God is one person, one sentient being who intercepted our world and died for us in the flesh and was resurrected from the dead. He dwelt with us AS ONE OF US but was God who loved us to die for us. He’s our wonderful counselor, mighty God, everlasting Father and Prince of Peace!

*micdrop

@@jameschasemaddox3037 why is it they neither seem to understand: The Father is God =Spirit =man having his own God’s spirit body with his own spirit of God within himself 1st Corinthians 2:11: John 8:17-18 - the Holy Spirit of God. The Son Was God called the Word John 1:1 Having his own God’s spirit body (with his own spirit of God within himself, as the Father HAS) The Word (God) was made flesh, A created, not God (an object of worship), man named Jesus having his human dust flesh with blood, and bones Luke 24:39, and 1st Corinthians 15:50,53. and his own spirit of man within himself Galatians 4:6 spirit of God’s Son who later became known as the spirit of Christ Romans 8:9/spirit of Jesus Christ Philippians 1:19 AND was given the Spirit, the Father’s spirit of God within himself, John 3:34. After his death and resurrection and ascension to heaven Jesus Christ was Given an incorruptible and immortal body placed upon his mortal dust flesh and bones Luke 24:39 without blood 1st Corinthians 15:50 body ‘Begotten (born) of God’ Acts 13:33 Anointed as God by the Father Hebrews 1:8-9 Only God of man John 5:22 Only, in all other areas the Father is the God of Jesus Christ Revelation 3:12, and Matthew 24:36.

lol The Word always exist BUT NOT THE SON OF MAN WHO BEEN BEGOTTEN BY THE ONE WHO ALWAYS EXIST.

@@michelhaineault6654 I didn't see this comment but the word exists eternally by eternal begetting

@@joop6463 lie, if it's eternal, it has never been begotten but THE MAN Jesus been begotten in a virgin NEVER BEFORE.

That was hardly an explanation… not a scriptural explanation, he can only do it with theological understandings; meaning he has to step outside of the Bible and use words that you can’t even find it the scriptures. Mans interpretation…

Reformed Theology rules!

Or you can use our soul, spirit , and body to describe it as well. For example your name is Fran so your soul is Fran , your body body is fran, and your spirit is Fran, but your body is not your soul and your spirit is not your body. But they are all you

@ 2:15:00 smh @ James White, this is the deception of theology, had the nerve to say he knows what it really means. Theology is the use of word manipulation to make something seem like it says something it doesn’t say, especially when it benefits their trinity doctrine. They can’t do it with the word.

So where did he fail? Facts please.

+Child of God Can you prove WHO God was speaking TO?

Child of God never said let us make man in the conception of the trinity.

I couldn't agree the more - I watched that and even bought Geisers book (I believe that's the name of the guy who was with The late Walter Martin) that debate was Golden! John Ankerberg also knew this stuff! That was a time when debates where on a whole different level! I really enjoyed this!

@@benjaminmuniz9075 That is a debate I still enjoy watching parts of every once in a while. It really was epic. Probably the first for the oneness pentecostals against a trinitarian.

@@tech1302 very much so - I like how Walter Martin says it in the debate, "for the first time in television history, people will get a chance to know WHAT they believe and WHY they believe it" *may not be verbatim - I also did a recent search last week on Robert Sabin and if he ever changed his position after that debate and stumbled upon a debate he had with Dr. James White who also is considered a great scholar!

@@benjaminmuniz9075 I’ve not yet found a speaker who addresses 1- The Word and The God of John 1:1b ‘the Word was at: nearby, alongside; to: looking toward, going toward Reciprocally with The God’ and acknowledged the Word and The God were two men, two Gods 2- The Holy Spirit of God was the spirit of man within God the Father’s God material Spirit body 1st Corinthians 2:9-11 3- The Word had his own God’s material spirit body Philippians 2:6b 4- The Word emptied himself of his God attributes of which some are Eternal life John 5:26 Glory he had with the Father ( not sharing the Father’s Isaiah 42:8) before the world was John 17:5 Knowledge Hebrews 5:8 learned he obedience by the things that he suffered John 8:28 as the Father has taught me I speak these things God authority John 5:19 His own spirit of God - as the Father has his own spirit of man within him John 8:17-18, 1st Corinthians 2:9-11 so Jesus as God, the Word, would have had his own spirit of man within him John 1:1-3 before he was made flesh John 1:14 Wouldn’t have had the Spirit (the Father’s spirit of man) John 3:34-35 God (the Father) gave Jesus the Spirit at the beginning of his Christ ministry ( God wouldn’t have given Jesus what Jesus had) Wisdom Luke 2:52 he increased in wisdom Abilities God (the Father) gave Jesus the Spirit and all his things John 3:34-35 had Jesus had those abilities God would have given Jesus ONLY the authority to use them; the abilities (gifts) of the Spirit includes Knowledge Wisdom Gifts of healings Prophecy Discerning of spirits Miracles and perhaps more ….. . His God’s material spirit body Philippians 2:7 b ‘put on the form of a servant’ and maybe others … . I would wish they addressed these …..

@@benjaminmuniz9075 I wish they would address 1- The Word and The God of John 1:1b were both God: two Gods 2- each The Word and The God were at: nearby, alongside; to: looking toward, going toward Reciprocally with the other 3- The Word had his own God’s material spirit body Philippians 2:6b 4- The Word emptied himself of his God’s attributes of which some are His God’s material spirit body Philippians 2:7b ‘put on the form of a servant’ Eternal life John 5:26 Glory John 17:5 the glory he had with the Father (not the Father’s Isaiah 42:8) God authority John 5:19 Knowledge Hebrews 5:8 learned he obedience by the things that he suffered John 8:28 as the Father has taught me I speak these things John 12:49-50, 14:9 Wisdom Luke 2:52 increased in wisdom God abilities John 3:34-35 God gave Jesus the Spirit and all his things John 3:34-35 some of which include Prophecy Gifts of healings Miracles Discerning of spirits Knowledge Wisdom Hospitality Teaching And there may be others ….. Which would conclude that as the Word, God, was made flesh the Word (God) was made a created mortal man so God (the Word) was with us, only not The God and not as God but a created mortal man so he had no God nature and a man nature because none of his brethren had a God nature and a man nature Hebrews 2;17a I may never hear these addressed

Not A problem for Oneness , ofcourse is The Father, since Jesus said He is in heaven. This doesn't prove a Trinity.

Easy too, prove that happened, instead of relying on unconfirmed text.

They basically teach that Jesus is God the Father and they also teach that the Holy Spirit is Jesus. But that’s not true , because although Jesus is God, Jesus is not the Father. The Father is His own distinct person. Oneness people believe that there is no difference between the Father, the Son , and the Holy Ghost, whereas us trinitarians believe that the 3 are 1. But the three are not each other.

@@thelionsarmy9144 Oneness is the belief and doctrine that There is only one God and one Person. The Heavenly Father manifested Himself in the flesh and doing so is the begotten Son of God. We look at Jesus prophecy Isaiah 9:6. He will be called ...Mighty God, The everlasting Father, Prince of peace. Isrealities asked Jesus to show us the Father and Jesus said if you have seen me, you have seen the Father. I and my Father are One. Jesus said he is I AM. Matthew 28:19 tells a truth while giving a command. To baptize in THE NAME of the father,Son and Holy Ghost. Three manifestations of One God who has One Name. We look at Acts 2:38 as Peter tells the great crowd how to be saved..and Peter said unto them repent and be baptized everyone in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. The ONE NAME. As also stated in acts 4:12- neither is there salvation in any other; for there is no other NAME under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. The truth is Jesus is the NAME of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism. Jesus said I will send the Comforter ( Holy Spirit ) in my name. The prophecy of Joel referenced in acts on the day of pentecost. The Lord said in the Last Days I will pour out MY Spirit upon all flesh...he didn't say The Spirit referring to another person he was talking about Himself. God didnt send a separate person to be a sacrifice for our sins, He sent Himself. One Mighty God who is able to manifest Himself as a burning Bush, a pillar of fire, God in the flesh. God is omniscient.

I hope you have an idea of what Trinity is all about.

That’s all. No Trinity but one

Jesus is the Father and Jesus is the Holy Spirit. One God, one person, in 3 modes, hence modalism.

Amen, if he knows he's right then he should be able to stay calm but I notice that with most people who "know" they"ve lost the argument

@Norwalquero, The debate is about the truth written in the bible, about Triune God or One God, It is not about who is a nicer gentleman between the two... Jesus was also rude to the hypocrites unbelievers, He told the Pharisees, you are of your father, the devil...

+52RGD I am well aware of the subject of the debate. However, the scriptures exhort believers to speak the truth in love and to give a defense with gentleness and reverence. You may disagree with James White (I happen to agree with him wholeheartedly). But he is neither a 'hypocrite', 'unbeliever' nor 'Pharisee', so your comparison to Jesus and the Pharisees does not apply. I reiterate my previous observation that Perkins was extremely rude to his debate partner. If he is unable to carry on a formal debate without being rude and disrespectful, then he should leave the debate to others who can.

+Norwalquero, {{+52RGD I am well aware of the subject of the debate. However, the scriptures exhort believers to speak the truth in love and to give a defense with gentleness and reverence.}}=>your post Speaking the truth in love refers to the innocent people not to those who spread the lie of Trinity, But to those who oppose the truth Paul said to Timothy: ''Preach the word; be diligent in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with patience and doctrine.'' 1st, it doesn't concern you if according to your observation Mr. Perkins doesn't talk with love, The main thing for you to do is help Mr. White to prove that Trinity is a biblical doctrine... 2nd, I told you already that Jesus is rude to the unbelievers like Mr. White, He told them, you are of your father, the devil... Any one who teaches Trinity and debate trying to prove that Trinity is biblical is a fool and HYPOCRITE IN DISGUISE! Actually Mr. White is not only hypocrite but he also DEFY God to the face, GOD SAID: I am your Only God, There is no other gods before me, besides me, neither after me, I created all things ALONE and by MYSELF, Mr. White answered: NO, you are not alone, there are three of you, and the two others helped you in creation and redemption of mankind, I will spread this lie in the whole world as my father did... There is no word nor concept of Trinity in the bible! There is not even One Verse in the bible that teaches Trinity! The following can never be found in the bible in words or concept: There is no Trinity in the bible, There is no Triune God or Unified God in the bible, There is no 3 persons of God in the bible, There is no 'God the Son' in the bible, There is eternal Son in the bible, There is no co equal, co eternal, nor co existent in the bible, There is no'God the Holy Spirit in the bible, So, how come that Trinitarians always use these terminologies??? These only proves that Trinity is NOT, NOT, NOT a doctrine of the bible! Trinity is a doctrine of the devil founded by the forefathers of the RCC, and spread throughout the world by the anti Christ RCC. It was brought to the protestant camp by Martin Luther who himself was a former RCC priest...

OK I get it now. Any of us who are Trinitarian (and not Unitarian) in our understanding of the Godhead are devils and hypocrites who deserve to be treated with contempt and scorn. I understand now. Thanks for clarifying. :)

@Norwalquero, 1st of all, I am not a Unitarian, I am not also Oneness like Mr. Perkins, and I don't claim to know all the truths of the bible, 2nd, I don't condemned all who believe in the Trinity because I myself believed in Trinity for 35 years, 3rd, I only attack severely those who spread Trinity, and debate in public trying to prove that Trinity is the truth, Unless you spread the doctrine of Trinity and debate in public that Trinity is the truth , then you are NOT one of them ... May God bless you and open your mind to see the truth...

+David Maxfield Yea', White really made an "amazing case" as he unashamedly told Perkins & the world that God exists as, *3 divine individuals, each with their own SEPARATE CENTER OF CONSCIOUSNESS APART FROM THE OTHER 2 DIVINE INDIVIDUALS*.....LOL. Pray for yourself, if you're a "Trinitarian," you're in false doctrine.

***** Said the fool who worships an unbiblical concept of "god" - poor heretic. Repent if you desire eternal life.

David Maxfield mr white have stated that the father did not come that it was the son.but then bible teaches us that the holy spirit also came hmmm sounds to me like someone stayed behind.

David Maxfield Another thing you should pray about also. Pray you receive the holy spirit .

I guess you can win in a debate against Dr. James White?@@rogerperkins8959

Daniel Sarmas Here is a portion of an article I wrote on this subject. Notice the words, “I saw in the night visions, and behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven (Daniel 7:13).” Here we can clearly see that Daniel saw prophetic visions of one like the Son of man but he never said that he actually saw the Son of God before he was born. Otherwise Daniel would have written, “I saw the Son of Man” or “I saw the Son of God coming with the clouds of heaven.” Daniel clearly wrote that he saw night visions of “... one like the Son of man ...” because he did not actually see the Son of man before he was made in the womb of Mary. What Daniel saw was prophetic visions of the future Son of God being given dominion over all the earth during his millennial reign over the planet after his second coming. Therefore the prophet Daniel and the other Hebrew prophets only saw prophetic visions of the Son’s future glory before he actually came into existence through the virgin Mary. Notice also that the scripture says, "And THERE WAS GIVEN HIM dominion and glory ... that all people and nations, and languages should serve him.” When exactly was this dominion and glory actually given? Did Jesus actually reign over all nations of the earth during the lifetime of the prophet Daniel or was this a prophetic utterance of the future glory that Jesus would have when he will reign over all of the nations and peoples of the earth when he returns from heaven? Since God “... calls things that are not as though they were" (Romans 4:17 NIV), we can see how Jesus was already given glory in the mind and plan of God before he actually received that glory. This is that glory that Jesus spoke of when he said, "... the glory which I had with you before the world was.” John 17:5 The Bible plainly states when Jesus will actually be given dominion, glory, and a Kingdom in which he shall rule all people, nations, and languages of the earth. Revelation 12:5 “And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.” Daniel 7:13-14 Not yet fulfilled. Revelation 11:15 “Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, ’The kingdoms of this world HAVE BECOME the kingdoms of our Lord (One God) and of His Christ (One Man), and He shall reign forever and ever!” Hence, Daniel 7:13,14 will be fulfilled when Jesus returns! Many other scriptures prove that the Son of Man will come with the clouds of heaven to rule over all peoples and languages of the earth at the end of this age. Mark 13:@13 “But in those days, following that distress, “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens." Revelation1 1:7 also proves that Jesus shall COME WITH CLOUDS when he returns to rule over all the earth in the near future: "Look, he is coming with the clouds," and "every eye will see him, even those who pierced him"; and all peoples on earth "will mourn because of him." Also notice that Jesus is spoken of as "The Son of MAN" in Daniel 7:13. The scriptures speak of Jesus as the Son of man because he was born from his mother Mary as the son of human ancestry. How could Jesus be the Son of man [the Son of mankind] without being born from a human parent if he had already existed as a Son of man prior to the incarnation? It would be impossible for Jesus to literally exist as the Son of Man prior to his birth because the very title "Son of Man" reference his physical birth from human kind. Daniel 7:13-14 is yet another example of Messianic prophecy where God thinks and speaks as if Christ were already given the kingdoms of the world before they were actually given to him. Just as Jesus was already spoken of as the “lamb slain from the creation of the world" (Revelation 13:8) before he was actually slain, so Jesus was already spoken of as having glory and dominion before he actually received it. Moreover, the scriptural evidence proves that the Son of Man could not have literally existed as the Son during the time of the prophet Daniel because God the Father said concerning His Son, “I WILLL BE to him a Father, and he SHALL be to me a Son (Hebrews 1:5).” Clearly the Father and Son relationship could not have occurred until after Jesus was begotten. EXAMPLES OF MESSIANIC PROPHECIES GIVEN AS IF THEY ALREADY OCCURREDPsalm 2:7 “... Yahweh has said unto me, You are my Son, THIS DAY HAVE I BEGOTTEN YOU.” Are we to believe that Jesus was actually begotten [born] when David wrote this psalm?Psalm 22:16 “They pierced (as if it already happened) my hands and my feet.” Was Jesus crucified twice?Psalm 41:9 “Even my close friend (Judas), whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me.” “Has lifted!” Could Judas have actually betrayed Jesus in heaven before he was born?Psalm 118:21-22 “I will give you thanks, for you answered me; you have become my salvation (Jesus is God who became our salvation). The stone which the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone (Jesus is our chief cornerstone - Ephesians 2:20 - New American Standard Bible).” Could the Pharisees have actually rejected Jesus the Messiah one thousand years before they were born?Isaiah 53:1-5 “Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of Yahweh been revealed? He grew up before him like a tender shoot, and like a root out of dry ground. He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him ... He was despised and rejected by mankind, a man of suffering, and familiar with pain ... he took up our pain and bore our suffering ... But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities.” Notice how Isaiah spoke of Jesus as having already been despised, rejected, and pierced 1000 years before hand!

+Steven Ritchie I just saw your response now, one year later, LOL. What exactly is your point? I don't really get it. Are you a modalist?

not necessarily eternal in the past, but certainly as pre-existing His incarnation.

@@swentworth Are you implying that Jesus is a created being?

@@bobpolo2964 I do think that is what the Bible indicates, but I'm open to contrary evidence. I do see in Colossians 1:15 says He is the firstborn of all creation as does Revelation 3:!4 when Jesus tells John that He is the beginning of God's creation. We'll need to contend with those verses if Jesus is eternal in the past, but I'm up for it if we can find reconciliation elsewhere in the Bible.

@@swentworth The Greek term for 'firstborn" is πρωτότοκος (Prototokos). It means preeminent or first priority. It's not to be taken literal. David is called the firstborn in Psalm 89:27, but we know he was the last born of Jesse (1Samuel 16:1-13). Ephraim is also called the firstborn in Jeremiah 31:9, but we know he was Joseph's second born after Manasseh (Genesis 41:50-52). Revelation 3:14 is also referring to Christ's preminence over His creation. Look at Revelation 1:8 & 1:18 & 22:13. There's much more evidence for the eternality of Jesus. Chew on this first, friend. See what you think. Take care

@@bobpolo2964 Colossians 1:15 can be translated as "preeminent" if "ktiseos" is a genitive of subordination. If it is a partitive genitive, then the proper translation would be "firstborn, who is a part of creation." Either way, the verse does not "mean preeminent" but CAN mean preeminent (and only if it is a genitive of subordination, which is in question) In Revelation 3:14 "prototokos" is not used at all, but Jesus is called the "beginning of the creation of God." This verse must be reconciled. Revelation 1:8, 1:18 and 22:13 are each calling Jesus the "Alpha and Omega" or "the first and the last." These are titles that God has designated for Himself and which are applied to Jesus. Jesus is also referred to as "YHWH" and "God" and "Father of eternity." Jesus receiving titles reserved for God could mean Jesus is 1 of 2 things, as to His ontological nature, one implies eternality in the past, "God"; and the other implies Him being created, "Image." Also, keep in mind that if you believe Jesus to be the one referred to as "Wisdom" in Proverbs chapter 8, then we would also need to contend with His being created, as Wisdom says of itself/Himself "ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth. When there were no depths I was brought forth..." (Proverbs 8:23-24). There is much debate over the term "monogenes" used mostly in John, but also elsewhere, in reference to Jesus. I wouldn't necessarily say it mean "only begotten" or "only created" but it could. Let's not allow our theology to dictate what the Bible says and doesn't say. We are to submit and exegete theology, not the other way around.

It’s because Roger wasn’t debating, he was preaching. Dr. White won this debate with his opening remarks.

Mr. Perkins "debate" is likened to a bunch of scattered marbles. It is not intellectually derived. It has no synthesis at all.

@@prayersquad3391, no consistency either.

The creeds weren't a tradition of the fathers. They were rather an affirmation of the Biblical doctrine of God as known by Moses and Abraham who BOTH knew the preincarnate Jesus Christ who walked with them and and Moses wrote of.

@@logosnomos3794 , precisely. The Bible is not a theological textbook that lays out the full throated corpus of God's Truth in point by point encyclopedic fashion, but, rather, is the God breathed revelation of His will through the individualized talents, styles, focusses and contexts of many different writers chosen over more than 1500 years. A Truth like the Trinity was affirmed, classified and elucidated at Nicea because Scripture clearly teaches it, not in point by point fashion, but with clear affirmations, in numerous places, of both the humanity of Christ as well as His deity, of both the Father's deity and the Holy Spirit's as well. Just because the text does not use the term Trinity, does not mean the term is not allowable to describe what the text simultaneously teaches about each of the Devine persons in the Godhead. It's childish ignorance and tantrum throwing to suggest otherwise.

This statement is ignoring the very point and purpose of Dr. White.

@@ernestojlassus1354 or maybe your a cheerleader for James White.🙃

@@eyehashereyehadonai8036 Ben Sommers shows ancient Israelites believed God could manifest in multiple simultaneous ways.

@@zachburkholder2559 Of course. Either there is a Father and Son or their is just Jesus. None is greater than the Father.🕎. Who is able to manifest himself in many forms, but not 2 . Causing confusion in us primitive simple minded humans. God has always existed . Father Yahwah.🕎🇮🇱. I’m persuaded Christ proceeded forth from God. Not created. How can a created being be on par with an ever existing being? God Bless.🕎✝️

Do you believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord and savior? ​@@eyehashereyehadonai8036

I think we can all agree that the man Jesus Christ did not exist before the incarnation. What oneness people teach is that the man Jesus Christ is the incarnation of the divine person of the Father. But there is a distinction between the Father and Jesus, because Jesus was a man, and God the Father himself is not a man. But, the man Jesus Christ is the incarnation of the Father's person. In Hebrews 1, we read about the "character" or "imprint" of the Father. This has been interpreted historically as the imprint of the infinite God on His Creation, the "Word" of the God who transcends Creation, at work in Creation. He spake and it was so. The word and wisdom of God. 1 John 1 refers to the word as eternal life, which was with the Father or in His possession, and then was manifested. The man Christ Jesus is the incarnation or embodiment of that. In Colossians then, he's described as God's "image." The image of God, the Father.

As Paul ( the Jewish convert) said, in 1Cor. 13, … “When I was a child …… but NOW face-to-face…”

Daniel C Actually, Perkins did fine in this debate & completely exposed White's "conceptual Tritheism" (as he called it) - esp. when White unashamedly confessed to worshiping a God who exists as *"3-divine individuals, each with their own SEPARATE center of consciousness apart from the other 2 divine individuals"*. And you want us Oneness to "go back" & listen to White....LOL?? Not hardly. Ummm, trust me, we heard him loud & clear! It is White (& apparently you) that needs to go back & listen to Perkins. Us Oneness are very pleased with this debate.

Roger Perkins AMEN! What we have with Dr. James White is a man that has been educated above his intelligence.

David Stanton not that jesus was speaking in 3 separate individuals and then simultaneously . that makes no sense. jesus was speaking simultaneously .one mind. just how God can still be in heaven and earth at the same time or answering your prayers and mine at the same time . not that God was one ear there and one ear over here trying to understand what we are saying to him while we pray at the same time.non sense . trinitarians believe that God can communicate with us as a 3 separate individuals with there own will and mind (personhood) or(personify)and Then simultaneously speaking as one God. like if God was saying hold on let me hear him first then ill come back to you.lol i guess his not all knowing if that was the case. NONSENSE !!!!

Nicholas Cone sorry?

Sorry that wasnt supposed to be directed at you

Perkins said a lot and ultimately said nothing.

@neinacelebre4546 Dr. James believes in: 3 Persons with disctinct personalities, not the One spirit of GOD. Now are these Persons below or titles? If they are Person then we have 9 Persons and there are many more but here are some! No they are titles and there is only ONE God, that has many titles. Ephesians 4:5 One God, One faith, One baptism. God The Father God The Son God The Holy Ghost God The Almighty God The Savvior God The Word God The Creator God The Alpha God The Omega God The Highest These are titles, not Persons, The problem is that men like James White are academics and are detached from simplicity of the Word.

Facts matter more than feelings though...anyone can get emotional...but that doesn't mean they are on the side of facts.

@@interpretingscripture8068 Yes, facts do matter more than feelings. And the unavoidable fact is that the doctrine of the Trinity is inherently contradictory and is thus false on its face. I am not merely making the claim that it is so. I can and have demonstrated it repeatedly. Regardless the version of the Trinity you espouse (yes, there are multiple versions), each one either affirms some sort of direct composition in the Godhead or tritheism. Thus, regardless the slickness of a presentation or the apparent knowledge of a proponent, an inherently contradictory doctrine is false, and no appeal to the apparent professionalism of one side over the other can rescue a patently false position.

@David Coleman I would say the concept of the Trinity is very logically consistent however what is revealed in scripture is of utmost importance. Scripture is clear that the Father is God...that the son is God and that the Holy Spirit is God yet there is one God. The only logical way to maintain both the Oneness of God and the personhood and deity of all three is the Trinity....one Triune God.

@@interpretingscripture8068 You claim that the doctrine of the Trinity (DT) is logically consistent, but the revelation of the Bible is "of utmost importance." This implies that biblical revelation is superior to logical consistency. However, without logical consistency, the Bible would be incoherent. False concepts cannot, even in principle, be rendered true by an appeal to the Bible, because that would render the Bible a book of falsehood. If a concept is untrue, then it cannot, by definition, be a biblical concept (if the Bible is the infallible word of God). It is no different if we attempt to read "married bachelor" into the Bible. If you're married, you're not a bachelor, and vice versa. If the Bible doesn't teach false concepts, it then follows that the Bible cannot teach the concept of married bachelors. As I stated, regardless the version of the Trinity you espouse, excepting Swedenborgianism, you either affirm some form of direct composition in the Godhead, or your affirmation leads unavoidably to tritheism. Since you clearly disagree with me, then I invite you to explain how your concept of the DT does _not_ avoid composition while maintaining monotheism. Or, perhaps you have no problem with a composite Godhead. In that case, I'd like to read your explanation why that does not render God's being dependent on His parts for His actuation and conservation.

@David Coleman Logic and God are 100% compatible because it's part of his nature. The weakness of logic is not in God or his truth but only in man's perception and understanding of logic. Thus the "however". You assume God must be bound by our finite understand of one vs plural. God is infinite and is everywhere present simultaneiusly yet at the same time scripture also reveal to us that he dwells in heaven. There are many characteristics of God that cannot be fully grasped by our finite minds but we accept them as true because he gives us a glimpse of them as they are revealed in scripture. This is also true of his triune nature. This is not logically inconsistent except to the finite mind of man.

Hmmm, we must have overlooked the terms God the Father, "God the Son," & "God the Holy Spirit" - or "Trinity" - in Gen. 1.26....But hey, we're fair peeps, maybe you can point us to those terms since it seems so clear:__________? Hear that music in the background?

Roger Perkins-Let us make man in our image- no where in chapter 1 it brings angels into the picture-how u arrived that GOD was speaking to angels ? I guess you chose to believe HE was speaking to angels-to admit HE was talking to JESUS or the holy spirit would not be good for you-LOL

karlos6628 Ummm, yes, I agree with Perkins here...as well as the Jewish ppl.! YHVH was indeed speaking to angels....Deny it until doomsday it will not make it any less true. But, since you're so certain could you please provide us where the actual biblical text states that YHVH was talking to "Himself" or the "Trinity":_____________? Hear that music still playing? LOL.

Roger Perkins-JEHOVAH speaking to HIMSELF-since you claim that GOD was in JESUS you would have to prove that-not me You cant show where in Genesis chapter 1 indeed GOD is speaking to angels-you are the one who cant prove that-not me

karlos6628 In other words you cannot prove that YHVH was speaking to Himself because the actual biblical text does NOT say that...right? LOL...Thank you (BTW - yes, I *can* prove that He was informing angels about the incarnation...see Rom. 5.14).

If you are just beginning your journey then yes, it does not matter if God is one person or 3. There are other things more important to focus on. This can wait.

Trinity is biblical, and orthodox.

Hey bro... hope you’re doing good on your walk man... i hope that seeing the division doesn’t steer you away from the Bible bro, I think a majority of us are just trying to know God personally and sometimes we can get ahead of ourselves to the point where we could sound rude but it’s all love ! But yeah I hope you’re doing well with your walk !

Don’t get caught up in all of this. Just focus on Christ Jesus, and what he’s done for us. Trust in Him and what he’s done for us on the cross even if you don’t completely understand everything else. This is all a huge, divisive stumbling block that will do nothing more than push you away. Many blessings, brother, on your journey.

It matters a lot in how you worship, and ultimately how you understand salvation.

+ReformedTheology5 Is this the God you worship? > 3 divine individuals, each with their own separate centers of consciousness?

@@Mecaliman you want him to be a lesbian? 1 Conciusness and act like 3?

God is one and ALONE Holy ONE God was manifested in the Flesh John said Jesus is the true God and eternal life (1jn5:20) HEAR O ISRAEL the Lord your God the Lord is One (Not 3 Lord) JESUS is one Lord John said only ONE sat on the throne Paul said Jesus throne is forever and ever. If God is 3person Where are the throne of OTHERS..?

Fullness, also destroys partialism too 😊🙏

@Vincent Verona then the father isnt God

Somehow come to the conclusion that Jesus is God? Um, read John 1:1. Seriously only someone who is intellectually dishonest can read “the Word was God” and come away questioning Jesus’ divinity. As for the Holy Spirit, he speaks, he’s referred to with personal pronouns, he’s called God, he’s used in parallel with the Father and Son in multiple occasions... it’s pretty obvious who he is.

Is that just a way of saying the you can infer messages from God that aren't explicitly in the bible? I'm pretty sure I could come up with some new ones. The question is if God wanted us to believe something, why didn't he have the ability to make it clear?

The devil is the master of deception. He will confuse you all. Stop making stuff up. The Bible does not teach trinity.

@@eximusic What makes you think He wants everyone to believe? or every believer to know? Maybe give Matthew 13:11 a read.

​@@eximusic Matthew 13:11 says that not everybody gets it because its not meant for everybody. You have made God a none entity justified by in this case the seeming inability for some to understand His word; a word that in your opinion a powerful God could have done a better job of, making it more readily understood by all. At least that was the impression I got from your comment. As for surprising atheists TBH I don’t wake up in the morning thinking about that.

You must have a problem distinguishing Jesus and God, Jesus was a man , spoke the words of God in truth, Jesus was with The Father as The Logos, not taking flesh until The Father was reveal by The Son. John 1.1 tells us that The Word was in the beginning.

If Jesus was a second divine person he couldn’t lose his glory he was praying that he would be resurrected just like he was slain before creation. Rev 13:8 doesn’t mean he pre-existed! Isaiah55:11 my word does not return void.

Is anyone? The man is a monster

But he just humiliated James White

@@thetrinitydilemma9300 Perkins wasn’t even in his own class. He lost the debate before it even started.

Pride cometh before a fall

Neither Mr Perkins nor most youtube viewers can understand Koine Greek. Perkins needs to learn the Biblical languages to have this type of discussion. @@thetrinitydilemma9300

Yeah letting us know James White is a braggert and just because he translates does not make him know truth. He is trying build a translation that benefits the Reformed false doctrines of the trinity and 5points of Calvinsim. Let e give you an example of the trinity how he adds? He says the earliest Greek manuscripts for John 1:18 says Mongenes theos or the only begotten God. But he does not translate it to English that way. Why? Because he has been called on it and if true, Christianity is polytheistic. What about the other 2 non-begotten Gods?

SlaveofChrist "I loved the part when he talked about the Bible translations and James said Uh I work for them. We're not Unitarians. We did not mean that you said it meant. I died." Couldn't agree with you more. Perkins had to be told more than once in this debate about that by Dr. White, and yet he still kept misquoting the passage!! Perkins also came across as a very snippy, angry fellow. I even liked how the moderator had to "ring the bell" a couple of times in the direction of Perkins in order to keep him in line and not go down rabbit trails. LOL!!

TheJpgr1958 It is the only passage that says God is One person and Like R Perkins said there is not a single passage that says God is 3 persons NONE! I assure you Whites bias translating did not fit what they were trying to force into their bias translation so I am sure you did love it but you are going to meet God with it. angry you must have not watched white rolling his eyes and mouthing things like a child.The moderator Told Perkins he thought Perkins won the debate.

mlculwell I have heard people talk about mongenes theos in other debates and I'm certain he's not misusing it. Give me reason to believe he is. Oh and sorry you don't like Calvinism. It really doesn't matter if Scripture teaches it, it's kinda right. But, don't get mad just because he's a Calvinist I love Micheal Brown and I love him partially because he's a arminian.

SlaveofChrist Calvinism and Arminisim are both false doctrines. Yeah monganes theos is polytheism he knows it and will not translate it that way because he knows it. What about the other 2 non-begotten Gods? How many gods is that?I count more than one and that is way too many to be One God! Both of them are wrong I do not like either one of thier false teachings on God!

But then Perkins contradicts himself saying it was the whole person of Christ was praying...

There are several Scriptures that talk about God saving us and glorifying us in foreknowledge and before the foundation of the world. In 1 Peter 1:19-20, we read that Christ was foreordained and then was made manifest. In John 17:5, Jesus does not say “before I became a man.” He says “before the world was.” When that language is used, it refers to God’s foreknowledge. In John 17:24 Jesus uses the same wording. He’s asking God to give him what was his before the foundation of the world. He does not use language to suggest that he pre-existed at the Father’s side. John 17 does not prove the Trinity, far from it. It kind of disproves it because of the language that is used that is also used in several other Scriptural passages in the context of God’s foreknowledge.

Yes, we learned that White openly & unashamedly confesses that there are "3-divine individuals, each with their own *SEPARATE* centers of consciousness"? Wowsie! Crystal-clear Tritheism.

Roger Perkins The difference is, James White has decided to let the scripture speak as a whole instead of cherry picking verses to fit his needs and desires. Once someone lets the bible speak for itself, there is no way you can read it without coming to the conclusion that God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. One being, three persons, there's no way around it.

sticky2fresh Umm, no, the diametrical opposite is true: If you allow Scripture to "*speak for itself*" - There is no way possible to arrive at a God who exists as, "*3 divine individuals, each with their own SEPARATE center of consciousness apart from the other 2 divine individuals*". Yikes! This was White's own confession when Perkins grilled him during the cross-ex. Scripture does not teach this - this necessarily *must* be imported from external sources into the Bible. Simply put, it is foreign to the biblical writers paradigm: *God is one person.* (Gal. 3.20; Amplified)

Roger Perkins lol we sure did.

Yes, and judging by his replies to your comment, Perkins needs to review the arguments presented in this and other like debates. Better yet, perhaps he should request an internship under James White so that his biblical errors can be addressed.

This is very late response haha but I hope it's helpful. The amplified Bible is a translation that rather than doing footnotes for clarifiers often adds clarifications or alternative interpretations in brackets alongside the translated text. It's designed to help make reading notes easier since it's right next to the text, but because in some ways the insertions are a bit like commentary it's really easy for people who are looking for a version to proof text or are being a bit lazy in their exegetical practice to assume the insertions are part of the actual text rather than what they actually are intended to be, a study tool. Because the bracketed texts are clarifications based on the translator's understanding of the text, it matters greatly especially for that bracketed text what the editors' intentions for those insertions are.

What does it mean

@@yonatangenene2037 you are 5 years late. Catch up.

@@yonatangenene2037 it means Gods full revelation was complete through Jesus Christ.

Ummm, you need to pray for Trinitarians that they would obey the Gospel & the biblical Christ via Acts 2.38/Mark 12.29/Col. 2.9!

Roger Perkins lol study in context. If you think baptism is necessary for salvation then nothing else you say is valid

Just the largest debate on assumptions I've ever heard.

+Bee Blessed Yea', "Sola Scriptura"....that doesn't have a "sole Scripture" that supports nor states his "Truine divinity" - LOL.

Mr. Perkins was this your first debate?

+Roger Perkins 'προσαγάγετε πρός με καὶ ἀκούσατε ταῦτα· οὐκ ἀπ᾿ ἀρχῆς ἐν κρυφῇ λελάληκα, οὐδὲ ἐν τόπῳ γῆς σκοτεινῷ· ἡνίκα ἐγένετο, ἐκεῖ ἤμην, καὶ νῦν Κύριος ἀπέστειλέ με καὶ τὸ πνεῦμα αὐτοῦ.' - Isaiah 48_16 [Septuagint / LXX] 'Draw nigh to me, and hear ye these words; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning: when it took place, there was I [*SON*], and now the Lord [*FATHER*], and His Spirit [*HOLY SPIRIT*], hath sent me' - Isaiah 48_16 Compare:Draw nigh to me, and hear ye these words; I have not spoken in secret *from the beginning*: when it took place, *there was I*, and now the Lord, even the Lord, and His Spirit, hath sent me.' - Isaiah 48_16 *In the beginning was the Word*, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. - John 1_1

Godly Mathew LOL - Keep adding your own words into God's Word. I don't have to do that, I can allow the biblical text to stand on its own strength.

Roger Perkins yes, you are a fine example of the blunders of sola-scriptura. _'The Lord [_*_Father_*_] said unto my Lord [_*_Son_*_], Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool'_ - Matthew 22_44 _'Thy throne, O God [_*_SON_*_], is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of Thy kingdom. 9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God [_*_FATHER_*_], even Thy God, hath anointed Thee with the oil of gladness above Thy fellows.'_ - Hebrews 1

@user-jk5lv2ej3m Yes but this comment can be answered. God is a spirit, and the mistake both men do is speak of God in or as a Person or Person Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. Now God being a spirit means that He is omnipresent and can do all things simultaneously and Paul wrote this because he knew men would struggle interpretating God's power and prowess, and many men do as Dr. James White . 1 Corinthians 12:4-6 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

Trinitarians apologists get hurt and insulted when assumed being tritheistic by oneness and get mad when oneness say that they are worst than the devils because they believed in 3 Gods while the devils only believed in 1 God (James 2:19) Funny!

+preto shohmoofc guy LOL - you mean James White, the guy who unashamedly confessed to worshiping a God who exists as *"3 divine individuals, each with their own separate center of consciousness apart from the other 2 divine individuals"*, talked about chicken feathers when Perkins asked him about the ramifications of the anthropological terminology applied to YHVH, outright stated that no one has known the supposed "true" God (i.e., the "Trinity") for the past 2,000 yrs. of human history...& about 10 other absurd assertions....."Ridiculous" indeed! LOL - Yea', that's really "walking all over" Perkins...what debate were you watching again? Perhaps you should visit Perkins' Blog where he tears "Trinitarianism" to shreds....where it rightly belongs: *apostolicacademics.com*

Roger Perkins "3 divine individuals, each with their own separate center of consciousness apart from the other 2 divine individuals" Yes, that's the Trinity. What's your point again?

+Roger Perkins "the ramifications of the anthropological terminology applied to YHVH, outright stated that no one has known the supposed "true" God (i.e., the "Trinity") for the past 2,000 yrs. of human history.." This argument fails because the Jews ALSO didn't know that God went by the title "Son" either. Never mind God coming to earth and that the death on a cross for sin of mankind ALSO was unknown to the jews as well. So that was a big fat fail. I thought that the Jews knew whom they worshipped?

preto shohmoofc guy LOL - Welcome to the wacky world of Polytheism masquerading as "Monotheism." Poor Moses, even though he knew YHVH "face to face" - he was deceived about His very identity & need the Trinnies to "educate" him....ROTFLMHO! Yea', the Jews did "know" who they worship....& they have never worshiped a "Trinity!" That was exactly Perkins' point...LOL! Thank God He led me out of "Trinitarianism" into biblical Christianity!!

Roger Perkins Your nervous giggle does not help you here. A). In Ex 33:11, Moses was seeing the pre-incarnate Christ. This is why he could see him face to face. In Ex 33:20 he was beholding the Father which whom he couldn't see face to face for no man has seen the Father and has lived. (John 1:18; 6:46). Your dilemma is, how on earth could he speak to Yahweh to his face and live and yet not be allowed to see his face and live? B). As far as the other position. You didn't refute me. Nor did you answer me. The Jews had no idea that God was going to come down and die for their sins. Neither did they worship "God the Son". What?!? I thought they knew the God they worshipped?

You said, "...when they think that because these *3 persons are individuals* that they must have their own agenda." Of course, we could easily point out your blatant Tritheism viz your divine *individuals* concession...but equally erroneous is your notion that the "divine individuals" are "working together." The Son of God asked that His Father "let this cup pass from me" & your imaginary "2nd & 3rd divine individuals" do not even know the time of Christ's 2nd coming....Yea', reeeeeeeeal "divine unity". Put your eraser down, it will still be there when you're finished putting your Trinnie twist on it!

yep, they are indviduals. no trinitarian denies this. and yes, Jesus the God man in his humanity asked to have the cup removed from him but also said that he saught not his own will but the will of God. this same person also did not stand in his own defense before pilot or stop the centurians from seizing him knowing what was going to happen. and also that incident where peter said adamently that he would not suffer and Jesus vehemently rebuked him saying he had in mind the things of men and not God. so i don't see your point.

Yudo NeidaNo Your response is an incoherent rambling (e.g., "Pilot"??). It is clear that you have not done your research into Trinitarianism-proper - not to mention your unashamed confession to worshiping *"divine individuals"* within God...Tritheism @ it finest! Trinitarianism in *NOT* biblical Christianity (as Perkins pointed out in this debate) - it is Trinitarianism...Big difference! May you come to the knowledge of the Biblical Jesus Christ as the one OT YHVH enfleshed (Mark 1.2-3).

the Father is not the Son and the Spirit the Son is not the Father and the Spirit the Spirit is not the Son and the Father. so yeah, they're individuals. anyway, it doesn't look like you're going to offer anything compelling for your view so i'll go ahead and end our exchange here. see ya.

Yudo NeidaNo Oneness do not confess that the Son *IS* the Father. The Trinitarian assumption is that the Name of Jesus Christ applies *only* to the Son of God - when Matthew 28.19 clearly shows that the Name of Jesus applies equally to the Father, Son, & Holy Spirit (see also John 17.6, John 17.11; 2 Cor. 3.17; Col. 2.9; etc., etc., etc.). *"Divine Individuals"* LOL! How silly.....Later!

Yes, the Catholics priests did add or change some passages in the Bible to fit in their belief about the doctrine of the Trinity. Before the 4th century, we were taught to water baptize in My Name in Matthew 28:19. In Matthew 28:19, in earlier manuscripts, Jesus said go into all the nations and baptize them in My Name. But the Catholic priests changed it to baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit to fit in with their belief and their view and concept of the doctrine of the Trinity. So from the King James Bible on to our modern Bible translations, we got this teaching and saying of Jesus to baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. The Catholic priests changed and added some of their passages to the Bible. They were so corrupted that we have debate among so many different Christian denominations to this day that we are divided and are lost as to what is the truth. In Acts 2:38, the Apostle Peter taught the truth. He said " Repent and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ" only. The Bible also clearly taught as that there is only one name under heaven whereby we can be saved. That name is Jesus Christ and not Father, Son, and Holy Spirit like the Catholics priests taught. Another passage that the Catholic priests made changes is in the passage where it said " There are three that bear witness in heaven, the water and the blood, and the spirit. These three are in agreements". It did not say that these three are one. But the Catholic priests made changes in the King James Bible in this passage saying " There are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Spirit. These three are one. They completely changed this passage from the earlier manuscripts to fit in with their theology of the doctrine of the Trinity. So we don't even know what other passages in our modern day Bibles did the Catholics priests add or made changes to. So we don't even know for sure if the Trinity concept of our One true God is correct or not because of the corruptions made by the early Catholic priests.

+Follower of Truth Ummm, the Trinity is "absolutely 'CLEAR' in Scripture"??? Say what? What Bible are you reading? Perhaps you can point us to this "clear" passage:__________? Let's review to help you out of your delusion: White used his own personal translation of Phil. 2 w.out informing the audience this was how own rendering (completely unsupported in the Greek text BTW). White started talking about "chickens" when pressed by Perkins on the anthropological ramifications of God's numerical identity - a clear dodge. Here's the kicker: White openly confessed to worshiping *"3 divine individuals, each w. their own separate centers of consciousness apart from the other 2 divine individuals"*! {I think it's amusing to watch Trinnies ignore White's confession here since it's so crystal-clear tritheism.} White had to be warned by the moderator (who, BTW, I understand is judicial debate judge in AUS) for his typical self-pontificating regarding being a supposed "critical consultant" for The Lockman Foundation. White never once offered a response to Perkins' pointing out the force of the masculine singular adjective translated "one" (heis) in Mark 12.29, Gal. 3.20, etc. Typical Trinnie ploy - just ignore it & hope nobody notices. And I could go on & on & on....and you're *seriously* claiming White was the "winner" w. such classic blunders? Ummm, were we watching the same debate? Did you know the moderator immediately approached Perkins & told him that if they were scoring points & judging the debate that he would've won? Keep dreaming. Here's Perkins recent scorching refutation to White's recent attacks on Oneness believers (hope you learn something that leads you our false doctrine into biblical Christianity): apostolicacademics.com/

+Roger Perkins Listen back on the video from 2:18 and see how you try really really hard not to say the Son or Jesus - and when you finally say it you're trapped because it's clearly written there in Colossians 1:

Follower of Truth LOL - Oneness are not "trapped" anywhere in the Bible. Now Trinnies, all over the place in the Bible (e.g., Isaiah 44.24, Isaiah 9.6, Colossians 2.9, I Timothy 3.16, John 14.9-10, John 14.16-18, 2 Cor. 3.14-17, Acts 2.38, etc. ad nauseum). Go read the links in honesty of heart for biblical education & salvation.

Oneness Pentecostalism is a thing - also called the United Pentecostal Church. I was raised in the UPC, but now fully embrace the trinity. The Biblical languages more accurately support the trinity than modalism.

@@TexasHoosier3118 are you still pentecostal? Just outta curiosity.