Dutchman here. A great conversation, particularly because an Ukrainian picture was presented of different narratives and how these narratives were geographically distributed by historic processes. I appreciate, as a positive part of the conversation, that the geopolitical contribution to the crisis was not explicitly part of the conversation. It does not mean, however, that this geopolitical component is not there and I think it is essential to include how foreign powers are trying, present tense as we are still in the middle of it, to use Ukrainian "diversity", i.e. the existence of pluriculturalism and narratives, against Russia with the ultimate goal of those foreign powers to overthrow the presidency of mr. Putin (Medvedev, Peskov, Lavrov + the ruling class in Russia) and the balkanization of Russia. This, of course, with the purpose to have more resources controlled by western ruling elite and industrial tycoons, which are interwoven with the western political elite. I think it would be great to learn more about that too, also because it is interwoven with some of the Ukrainian narratives and not, or less, with others.

American citizen here. I apologize for my government, which went crazy after 9/11. Noam Chomsky's propaganda model for media is evident in America, as discussed by the professor in the video. A super majority of Americans live in what I call the American Media Bubble. That is how they are persuaded year after year to vote against their economic and foreign policy interests. I believe there are similar kinds of manufactured consent issues in Europe, but at a lower level.

Ukraine was OK before the western organized coup in 2014 regardless of all historical differences. It was enough to have a moderate government able to cooperate with all countries if it was profitable for Ukraine. But the West decided to take control over Ukraine.

Ad, hou toch eens een keer je mond!!! Laat iemand eens uitspreken, ik wil horen wat je gast te zeggen heeft. Iedereen weet dat jij veel weet, maar hou eens op dat in de etalage te zetten!!!

How about allowing the guy to speak without repeatedly interrupting him.That way you learn more.

The fact is Ukraine was a artificial country created by Lenin and the Bolsheviks historically it never existed the only part of Ukraine that was never a part of Russia was the west Ukraine because for centuries it was a part of the Hapsburg empire until after the First World War. Ukrainian language before the USSR was only spoken in the western Ukraine.

Couldn't agree more but the role of CIA and Soros absolutely ignored.

Nice research, gives lots of information, but has bias opinion of someone who suffered greatly from Russian. You didn't mention Petliura, you haven't explained how Chmielnitsky, apparently Kossak, got his Polish surname. Western Ukraine never existed, it was part of Republic of Poland till 1939, after the WWII incorporated to Soviet Union/USRR. Krym or Crymea, NATO was planning it's military base in Sevastopol. How have you suffered greatly, because of Russians, I as Pole could say it the same, but we suffered greatly because of Ukrainian nationalists, 75% of my family were murdered by you greatest patriot Bandera.

This host is too much, time and time again the guest wanted to move to his book .Several times this host drags his conversation to himself. Yap yap yap. Why bother having guests when you take over. So bloody annoying. Rude and aggressive.

Hello from Ukraine! In reality situation is even more complicated, Ukraine is poorly studied and poorly undestood.

Pfff wat een vreselijk irritant gesprek, Ad die er als gewoonlijk weer doorheen zit te blaten zodat die Nicolai met zijn verhaal van de hak op de tak springt. Ad is veel te onrustig, kan niet luisteren omdat hij al weer aan het bedenken is wat hij wil zeggen. Ad is gewoon niet geschikt als interviewer. Niemand hoeft te reageren met, "o het is geen interview maar een gesprek". Dat argument heb ik al 100x gehoord en moet ik inmiddels van op de pot.

There are so many layers to this story. Nicolai is teaching important, very complex history here... I must however hasten to say that my in-laws (family) who lived in Rostovski Oblast and the Kuban went through "Raskulachivanie"/ "Раскулачивание"---they ended up on collective farms & in the mines. Most survived until the Nazis came, They think of themselves absolutely as Russians ... with wild Cossack blood mixed in ....

Dear Adrian, thank you for this very interesting conversation (not an interview). Please consider holding back your urge to interupt the chain of thoughts of your guests for the sake of exposing your own knowledge. It looks like a sign of insecurity, as if you are fishing for compliments from the 'master'. You don't need it, dear Ad. You are an intellectual too, we know it. There's no need for rushing.

Important interview! ❤ I wish the interviewer would keep quiet. His interruptions are very distracting

The only part of Ukraine that was not part of Russia was the western part of Ukraine.

The interviewer talks to much and should listen more, no additional value in his remarks.

Het resoneerde enorm bij mij dat het volk opstond bij het verloren vertrouwen in de politiek. Ik heb namelijk het donkerbruine vermoeden dat onze westerse/europese politici hetzelfde bezig zijn, en ze hun standpunten met agressie en macht zullen willen verdedigen.

Excellent! Shared it. I find Professor Petro the consistently sane, objective, and fair voice on this subject.

Greetings from your Eastern neighbour. After Douglas MacGregor, talking to Prof. Petro is another outstanding interview partner. Great work, keep it up

Would be so great if you didn't keep interrupting the guest

Throughout the history of Ukraine was always part of the Russia empire.

Dit is een fantastische uitzending het geeft een duidelijk inzicht van een geschiedenis waar we veel te weinig vanaf weten , ik hoop dat ook social media hier naar kijkt

Je kunt ook het buitengewoon informatieve en gedetaillerde boek van Kees van der Pijl lezen, met 1000 voetnoten. Uitgegeven door Tom Zwitser van Uitgeverij de Blauwe Tijger. Dat boek heet overigens ook De tragedie van Oekraine en is in meerder talen vertaald.Kees wordt hier ondergewaardeerd, geeft lezingen in het buitenland.

Ik wil De Nieuwe Wereld en Ad Verbrugge bedanken voor dit ontzettend interessante, intellectuele en bewustmakende gesprek. Dit vraagt om meer, en ik hoop dat meer mensen de tijd gaan nemen om zichzelf te verdiepen in de materie van het Oekraïne-Rusland conflict. Dit is een essentiële opgave voor wereldvrede, en De Nieuwe Wereld heeft daar aan bijgedragen. Bedankt en ga zo door met het goede werk.

Historic view based on Idealistic philosophical thinking... With some good point's,. No one will fight for capitalism Ukraine is a weak state, a corrupt state, ruled by oligarchs. It's also a central area of security concern for Russia (and its oligarchs). Identity weaponized by foreign interests. The US saw the opportunity to bleed Russia through Ukraine? In the 2000's Russia and Ukraine was the most integrated countries in Europe. Has the ordinary Ukrainian benefited by the break up of the USSR, the civil war or the invasion? Look at the Ukrainian GDP from 1991 to 2024! The selling out of Ukraine by the current political elite (to the US) will cost the Ukraine dearly (economic and human). If you can predict anything from history. I think Ukraine will be thrown under the buss - once the current inter-imperialust war end/is lost. What does that tell us about the Western elites?

Prof. Nicolai Petro is zeker de moeite waard om naar te luisteren. Echt top van DNW dat jullie dit soort gasten steeds uitnodigen. Wij wachten op het interview met V. Poetin.

Tragedie van Oekraïne Kees van der Pijl toch....??

Crimea has always been ethnic Russia, by the so called annexation there whas not even one shot lost.

Почему такой большой историк Николай Петров не сказал, что 120 лет назад не было такой национальности - украинец. Даже на западной Украине, во Львове выходила газета «Русская Правда». Они тогда считали себя русскими. Украинство - это политический проект Австро-Венгерской империи. Там тех, кто называл себя русскими, помещали в контрационные лагеря. Не ленитесь, поинтересуйтесь историей того времени.

So from his Odessa observation post, did the professor see the Kiev coup government as fascist? What did Russian speakers there think about it? Note that the Odessa Massacre started as a 'Anti-Maidan' protest against the coup (information tables in front of the Ministry of Labour building).

Heel hartelijk dank DNW en speciaal Ad voor dit leerzame, verhelderende gesprek. Wat fijn dat jullie er zijn.

Try not to interrupt so much, makes it difficult to listen to. The interviewer seems to have forgotten that we are supposed to be given some perhaps new, interesting knowledge. You make it hard…

Too much unnecessary interruption by one of the participants. Can't watch. sad😢

Schitterende uitzending Ad. Ik zie in de commentaren nogal eens voorbij komen dat Ad NIcolai te weinig laat uitpraten, er teveel zelf doorheen praat . . . . ik vind dat juist prettig en getuigen van gelijkwaardige inbreng in een gesprek. Er is een heel groot verschil tussen elkaar onderbreken en de ander het woord ontnemen.

"You're beginning to talk like Poetin. That's dangerous!" . To show how smart those guys are, NOT.

Really a great dialog! Thank you both!!!

This man knows quite a lot. Maybe the questions were a bit too general for the time available. An unprepared college for 45min about half a millenium of difficult history is not going to be that succesfull for most people. Nevertheless, this men kept his story organized, he really knows his stuff.

And what about Bandera???

Een zeer leerzama discussie, zelfs voor iemand als ikzelf met al een grote kennis van zaken. Maar voor mensen die onbekend zijn met de historie van dit grensgebied Ukraïne moeilijk te ontwarren. Toch zal dit moeten mensen om tot een duurzamen vrede te komen.

Pretty difficult listening to an interview when the journalist isn’t able to let the guest finish his sentences / thoughts 🙄 especially with a guest like Nikolai Petro who is a gem of knowledge on this issue.

Very useful for perspective, thank you. Appreciate this format.

Ну, Вообще-то, была Донецко-Криворожская республика.

watch also nima on dialogue works, he is the most amazing journalist with the most interesting guests on this. Also on China, Gaza etc And don't forget to cancel your TV subscription guys, just a waste of time.

During the liberal democratic state period (1945-1995), the difference from today was that there were thousands of news companies and many networks - including new cable players - and to maintain a fairly free flow of information, only one had to buck a trend - plus they all had a huge financial impetus to be that 'loose cannon' to the establishment every now and then. The movie 'Network' posited that the change was from a news editor with final edit, to the finance department - of course this is in a climate of shrinking corporate incomes and a flurry of huge corporate takeovers -> ie. monopolization. (Lenin perhaps :)

Heel interessant. Dankjewel Ad

Heel lastig te volgen.

Dit was het meest interessante gesprek van dit jaar tot nu toe. Proficiat.

Thanks. Good interview. Enjoyed it.

They omitted one very important aspect of the Bolshevik period - so called “ukrainization” of the predominantly Russian speaking population in Eastern and Central Ukraine.

We talk about the lack of Palestinian representation in Western Media, but we also have a lack of diverse opinions regarding the Ukrainian perspective. Thank you both for helping to educate us about the Ukrainian people whose voice we want to hear.

Very difficult interview to follow because the host keeps interrupting. Oh lord ! Have to watch this with head phones

Nicolai Petro does not know the history of Russia, everything this guy is talking about is false, even my 7 years old boy know the Russia history very well.

Many thanks for this conversation!

Vrienden graag jullie hulp! Kunnen jullie een logische gespreksindeling / inhoudsopgave maken en hieronder posten - dan kunnen we die gebruiken? Gewoon minuut aangeven en titel hoofdstuk suggereren ❤

Hartelijk dank!

The day the coup happened, many top western leaders were in Sochi with Putin glad-handing at the ceremonies of the XXII Olympic Winter Games.

great conversation, very informative, and provides a "way out option"! This conversation aligns with Donald Trump's plan to end the war and get around the table.

Bedankt! Heel interessant !

The best discussion on Ukr. Wish his book was available on Audible.

Clashing narratives is de titel van mijn masterscriptie filosofie

Thank you very much for the very clear explanation of ukranianinism in historical perspective.

Joseph Roth is geboren in Polen, maar dat gebied is nu Oekraïne. Er zijn mensen die zeggen dat dit gebied weer terug moet naar Polen en ik heb begrepen dat Polen dit ook graag terug wil.

As a Swedish child my perception of the people east of Germany and West of Russia were that they are all kin and the only thing that made them different from Russians was that Russia was the biggest entity therefor maybe a bit of a bully. This view included the Balkans.

Bedankt

Zeer verhelderend gesprek 👌👍👍

Nice discussion about the history. Both seem a bit naive in their belief that parties only have conflict because they fail to see the other side's point of view. Most politicians are psychopaths...

Great conversation. Keep on, keeping on.

Weer een top gespek

Finally someone stating historical facts while explaining this conflict

Interesting show, but terrible host. Sir, you interrupt continuously. The first rule for a good host is to get out of the way, or at least hold your tongue until your guest pauses or finishes speaking. Your practice of talking over Mr. Petro is really irritating, distracting and really adds nothing. Other than that, I found Petro's history and analysis very valuable, but I would be happier if he did not gloss over the more unpleasant historical incidents - the brutality of massacres, the savagery of racist beliefs, policies and actions, the geopolitical chessboard, the damage inflicted in Ukrainian territories during the early 1950's, and the involvement of great powers and their intelligence services and State Departments in overturning governments and using peoples as "expendable" pawns to be sacrificed at will without a thought given to the misery and societal fractures they instigate. The failure to deal openly with these harms and brutalities does give the discourse a "cosmetic" quality, in an effort to preserve a pretext of balance and even-handedness. I find that aspect of Petro's discourse unpersuasive.

Sorry Ad, ik waardeer je enorm, maar ik denk dat jouw Engels gewoon niet goed genoeg is om op de jouw eigen manier een gesprek te voeren. Het is moeilijk dit gesprek te volgen, het voelt niet alsof je onder woorden kunt brengen wat je bedacht, zoals je dat in het Nederlands wel vaak zo mooi doet. Verder denk ik dat je wellicht aan het begin van dit soort gesprekken beter kunt aankondigen wat de bedoeling is: geen interview, maar een gesprek waar jezelf ook aan deelneemt. Dat brengt de, wellicht buitenlandse, luisteraar, en je gesprekspartner in het goede verwachtingspatroon.

actually not bad and sort of unbiased analysis but there's that frequent manipulation or misunderstanding that results in confusing Russians with Soviets - even Stalin is somehow Russian

Your Apple Podcasts are not available in Russia for some reason.

'radical extremists from the west and amoungst some intellectuals in Kiev as the centre of political and intellectual life in the nation' - so in fact this half of the political divide choose to throw out the 1991 constitution; now all the legal arguments you hear on the neocon / fight-Russia-to-the-last-Ukrainian side, falls very flat. Why I call it the Kiev regime today.

jammer dat de invloed van de US er niet in voor komt. Verder een interessant debat

They're just regurgitating all the popular platitudes, memes and slogans we've heard a billion times about the war. Apparently, these two fellas just love to hear the sound of their own voices.

Dit doe je goed Ad! Maar heeft u ook de testikels om zo’n gesprek te organiseren met Ilan Pappe of Norman Finkelstein over Israël en het Zionisme ?

Dear Adrian, please hold off your urge to interrupt your guest every minute. Your position should not be to argue with them. This is NOT a debate. As the host you should just ask probing questions let them make their points. I got very annoyed watching this video. But I commend you for your effort to bring alternative narratives. Cheers,

Also big dawg great conversation but stop interrupting so much dude is the expert let his train of thought go

I have one objection it was more of the Hungarian and Romanian empire, polish empire came later.

So much wiser than mcGregor

Interesting conversation.

I've got some bad news for all the "never gonna fight"-fanboys. YOU. WILL. GO. I just came here from a video, with hundreds and hundreds of funny comments by young Brits who voiced their outrage along the lines of "never fight for this country" and "ashamed of what the UK has become" or my personal favourite "not my war (Ukraine)/will never go". Sorry to inform these young men, but they do not know their history. Nor do they understand HOW POWER WORKS. It was what millions of young men already said 100 years ago in the lead-up to their declaration of war in 1914, and the current dismay simply the echoes of what many of their grandfathers already said: "not my war", or "what does the death of Archduke have to do with me", or their fathers before them in 1939 ("this is a war of those who use long words", and "not our war"). Step 1: Imperialist encroachment/encirclement of a rival power, in times of peace, by aligned off-continental states (the naval powers) with a GEOGRAPHICAL POSITION of POWER. *Humdeedum some time passes.* By golly, no more "fweedumb", but CONSCRIPTION, and YOU end up in the bloody trench to enforce Step 1... That was not different 100 or 200 years ago, and it will not be different NEXT time around. The global elites will draft YOUR daughter, before they send their own sons to the war-zones they have created for their own systemic gains. _The biggest losers of all in the class system turn up, finger-pointing, finger-waging ...literally too dumb to figure that all throughout history THEY have been the systemic losers of their leaders trying impose divide and rule on their neighbors, and the rest of the planet and that THAT has not changed._ Whatever... Guess who will live longest in the "nuclear winter"-scenario? (theory) *Short answer: NOT you (personally).* Longer answer: The same class of people who _never end up in the muddy trenches,_ in the wars they had previously lain the foundations for during the Era of Imperialism, while imposing the "divide and rule"-setup of the world. The last time this class of people died in any substantial numbers, was in fact WW1. As for the base of the pyramid, this is the "trenches class" who are the _biggest loser class_ in history, who don't know what their leaders do, or don't care what is implemented, or are too complacent if they find out what is done in their names. During the 1930s the "global divider in chief", the UK/London, was no longer immune from weapons of long range destruction (bombers), as it was around the year 1900 while big gun battleships still ruled the waves/world and there were no large fleets of bombers yet (technological stand). The USA today as post-1945 "global divider in chief" is no longer as immune from the weapons of long range destruction (MIRVs carrying nukes) as it was around the year 1945. It is not the 1900s, or the 1930s, or 1945 anymore. Because during the next war set up by the dividers of the world, from their assumed GEOGRAPHICAL ADVANTAGE of POWER, it does not matter "who is right" and it does not even matter "who is left," loosely quoting Churchill, but rather in what state the leftovers are going to be in.

Chapeau Ad

Keep the Americans and the British out of their oligarchy? :) (and the Russians - who were in no position to do that at that time - they were up to their eyebrows with Americans and the British)

As usual in these series: there is too much Verbruggen ! That makes the guest’s story unnecessary philosophical and the listener tired of trying to keep with the history

Interesting interview, despite the most annoying interviewer, who kept constantly interrupting in barely understandable English.

It' very important people get knowledge of both sides. This war must not have begun. Usa, EU, have to understand what is happening and when began It. Russia could have been in Europe, but nobody wanted It. If not destroy what survive from that Big country. And now, this country dont trust in nobody. But we need to say countries how they must live, breath, eat, think......

"Een verdiepend gesprek" kan in het Engels worden vertaald als "an in-depth conversation." Hier zijn enkele alternatieve vertalingen voor "een verdiepend gesprek": "A profound conversation" "A deep conversation" "A meaningful conversation" "An insightful conversation" Afhankelijk van de context kunnen deze vertalingen passend zijn.

Ivan Katchanovski about Maidan.

Burisma Holdings

Is it not more likely that the Cossacks didn't 'migrate out of Russia to be their own thing' - but were the distant relatives of the former rulers of the space? The Kipchak Khanate ('Golden Horde')?

so the term, 'the Rus' might be understood as the lands accessible by the Volga River? (everything west of the Urals :)

I am just wondering if it is so that we can/should use history to determinate how the future must be ? I do not think so. Just because somebody claim that "This piece of land belongs to us/me because our/my ancestor (well a selection of them and only from a selected time-span) was living here sometime in the past", man it is a dangerous approach, but I do understand the value of the argument from the person that makes it, but at what time-span is it right to use this kind of argument, one generation, two, three, ? Because if we think about it then we all are coming from east Africa some 60-80000 years ago, so we are all invaders of the place we are living at in some sort or the other, we can't really claim"this in my land because my family have always been living here". Don't get me wrong, history is interesting but I think it can only be used to explain how we ended up where we are, not to explain why things must be in a specific way or what direction to go.

Ad onderbreekt teveel..🙈

🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻💕💕💕♥️♥️♥️🌟🌟

I really wanted to take this guy seriously but so many of his arguments are just taken from German/Anglo historians who have always been biased against the Russian people. He couldn't even bring himself to call Bogdan Khmelnitsky an ethnic Russian and instead called them serfs. Yes they rebelled against the Russian tsar but they were still ethnic Russian. This is what is important. Ukrainian is NOT an ethnicity.

het laatste interview met Prigozhin ook interessant

Maidan was a coup not a revolt.

you don't have to say "I am not a marxist at all" it is not about you. A good journalist would never ever say a thing like that. It is western arrogance.