hahaha

+Peter Bakker Also, look at it this way, for symm's, shorter pins to pap of 4 - 2 3/4 is going to burn tilt and axis rotation good for people with tilt in the 20-25 degree range or for people who have faster ball speed and more axis rotation. For pins to pap on an asymm ball, the longer you go from 4 - 5 1/2 it will burn tilt and axis rotation and want to role forward, shorter pin to paps of 4 - 2 1/2 will cause the ball to retain the tilt and axis rotation that the bowler had put on the ball, good for lower ball speeds, lighter volume patterns, broken down house shots where a person needs to move in and hook the ball more. Each one has its purpose, but the main goal is choose the proper ball to begin with, then layout, possible weight hole then surface prep and cleaning of course. An informed bowler makes smart ball purchases, not just buys a ball because someone else has it or the proshop guy suggests it.

+Peter Bakker I wanted to add that, for short pin (3 - 1 3/4 to paps on a symm cored ball, the ball is going to flare less as you get towards the 1 3/4 pin to pap), this shorter pin to pap is going to make the core of the ball want to start its hook and role phase quite a bit sooner therefore making the ball have a mellow hook motion to it. Good for wet dry lane conditions as well as the others I had mentioned in my previous post. Basically a control layout, helps the ball not jumpy or snap going from the oil to the dry on the lane.

+Peter Bakker It makes "0" sense to me.

MrZocor Does it have to make total sense or even a bit of sense when all you need to see is that a particular layout for instance produces this specific reaction on the lane condition for what the ball and layout was chosen for. If you have a pin to pap of 5 1/4 on a symm medium reaction ball then you will get length and some backend movement. Longer pin to paps on symm cored balls reduce flare and push the ball down the lane before it starts reacting for 1 example. What is so hard about seeing this?

Longer pin to paps on symm cored balls reduce flare and push the ball down the lane before it starts reacting for 1 example. HUH?

NUKE, haha, I was thinking the same thing. I’ll just stick to throwing it strait down the center of the lane😂😂

suny123boy1 some of us just bowl for fun 🤷🏻‍♂️

+Sean Mullins You are talking in a language that I don't understand. Could you talk in more riddles?

Sean Mullins I

Your most used ball is used to track the P.A.P. Then that is applied to the new ball. If it is your very first ball, then I don't know.

99% of people aren’t worried about pin position and PAP when getting their first ball lol

+MTSpade You can find the tools on most bowling websites, I ordered mine from BowlingIndex.com

+Christopher Black For the pin placement from your PAP or positive axis point, longer pin to paps on symm cored balls from 4" - 5 1/2" above the fingers reduce flare allowing the ball to have a longer first transition or skid phase before saving more energy for the backend, going shorter pin to pap on a symm cored ball from 3" - 1 3/4" also allows less flare, but produces an earlier smoother ball motion so a shorter skid phase and a longer hook zone or arc. For asymm cored balls, longer pin to paps of 4" - 5 1/2" above the fingers produce good flare, but towards 5 1/2 the ball will want to hook and role forward much sooner when encountering friction good for longer heavier patterns, shorter pin to paps of 4" - 2 1/4" and going towards 2 1/4 reduces the flare, pushes the ball down the lane creating a longer first transition or skid phase shorter hook phase or more of a hockey stick type reaction. Each one has its purpose, but each layout chosen is based off a bowlers specs and lane condition and can also be tailored to a specific ball as well.

+Christopher Black Extra holes or specifically a balance hole ( only 1 allowed) can be used to make a ball legal so just a bit under 1 ounce, finger, side and thumb weight, or can be used to further strengthen or weaken a ball if the ball motion needs to be tweaked some. Surface also plays a role in strengthening or weakening a balls motion.

+Peter Hellström Side weight really does nothing for ball reaction except to allow the use of a decent balance hole to alter reaction while not creating too much negative or any negative side weight, now higher top weight will have more bearing on ball reaction. Mo Pinel can attest to this in his recent studies.

+Josh Writz I totally agree :)

Peter Hellström I had an older storm ball, a jolt solid with a short pin of around 3/4". Pin was 5" from my axis right under my ring with the cg like 4 1/2 from my pap no hole. The nature of the balls core was more rolling, but it must of had decent top weight because it got down the lane and had a pretty good backend for a weaker ball like the backend of the storm's new ball the Lock thrown by the people at bowlingball.com. Same thing with creating more thumb weight to get the ball rolling sooner and heavier.

Hi, The Positive Axis Point (PAP) mapping applies to any type of bowler. Locating the initial oil rings and marking them to locate the players PAP help a coach/bowler or player understand their game, as Coach Boomershine described. We’re unsure what an “over-rolled” full roller is and would need more information about it before making a specific recommendation about equipment or layout. The layout information in the video can apply to a “full roller’s” or any bowlers type of equipment. Consult a USBC certified coach or IBPSIA pro shop technician for more detail or specifics regarding your layouts and ball motion. Thanks for continuing with the Bowling Academy. Stephen Padilla

Hi, Here are simple instructions for finding a positive axis point (pap) using the “Armadillo.” * Wipe the bowling ball surface clean and remove any existing oil lines * Have the bowler throw a shot * After the ball comes back use a grease pencil to trace the first ball track flare ring (typically the closest to the fingers and thumb) * For a ball that’s hooked right to left place the “axis point” indicator of the tool to the right (for a ball hooking left to right - to the left) and line up the grease pencil mark(s) with an area or line on the Armadillo that matches the path best * Mark the spot labeled “axis point” on the small side of the Armadillo and that will be the bowler’s axis point. This will locate the bowler’s initial pap and the coordinates for this spot are commonly used to layout and drill a bowlers’ equipment. You can also use this location to calculate RPM’s (revolutions per minute). To accurately calculate the revolution rate imparted by the bowler you can use a video camera and tape. To acquire a revolution rate, follow these steps: 1. Mark the bowlers Positive Axis Point (PAP). 2. Place tape from the PAP too above the finger holes. 3. Film a delivery and play it back counting the number of frames from the time the balls released until the tape returns, one revolution, to its original position. 4. Input the video frame rate, and number of frames for one revolution into the RPM Rate Calculator at the following site: www.bowlingitrc.com/tools/ 5. RPM Rate is displayed on the site. The tape on the PAP should be stable initially, off the bowler’s hand, and as the ball travels down lane the PAP will change positions if the ball flares. Once the ball enters the “roll” phase of ball motion the tape from the PAP to the finger holes should be rolling end-over-end. The sooner the tape reaches this end-over-end visual the sooner the balls in the “roll” phase. There are several other videos on the Bowling Academy to help explain the phases of ball motion and how the change the roll of the ball on the lane effectively for scoring. Below is a list to get you started. 1. “Understanding Bowling Ball Motion” 2. “Breaking Down Ball Motion - Bowling Training Video” 3. “Utilizing Bowling Ball Reaction to Improve Your Score” Thanks for continuing with the Bowling Academy.

I would say yes, because having the PAP allows the person drilling the ball to give you exactly what you're looking for in a ball

Hello and thanks for the question. Yes the same concept applies. Thanks for watching! Jason-National Bowling Academy

Hello and thanks for the question. You will not be able to get your PAP from a house ball. You can Identify what type of ball roll you have by watching this video. www.nationalbowlingacademy.com/video/bowling-style-oil-track-017148/ This will help your new pro shop operator when determining your layout after taking your measurements. I would also snap some pictures of the layouts of your other bowling balls on your phone. Just good talking points, likes and dislikes. Here are some additional videos from our coaches on fit to help arm you with as much information as possible. www.nationalbowlingacademy.com/video/finding-your-bowling-ball-pap-005800/ www.nationalbowlingacademy.com/video/elements-of-a-bowling-ball-fitting-005712/ www.nationalbowlingacademy.com/video/proper-bowling-ball-fit-varies-by-hand-009303/ www.nationalbowlingacademy.com/video/making-adjustments-to-the-surface-of-your-bowling-equipment-005550/ www.nationalbowlingacademy.com/product/ball-motion-layouts-video-download/ Thanks for watching and good luck with your new ball. Jason-National Bowling Academy

Hi Im mohsen Im persian I ve been started bowling for 9 month And l want to know the type of bowling ball and the difference of these balls like hybrid solid and pearl My english is not good Sorry about that Thank u very much This is my email add semim.fx@gmail.com

Travis Kibel in all honesty I didn't know about the armadillo but it's on my shopping list. and I agree there are pro shops out there with know it all's.

Travis Kibel

Travis Kibel

Travis Kibel liked this vid but i havent read anything. so i dnt know wtf he's talking about

Travis Kibel I totally agree, I'm new to bowling so trying to learn myself and I can't find a good pro shop here either. Also it seems when I got my first ball there is no way to know my pap until I get a ball drilled for my hand, know I got to get my pap from it and get another ball drilled the way I want.

Hello, I do not see that your active Premium customer. Our Ask Expert Program is for those Premium members. Here is a link to our Premium membership at a deep discounted rate: go.nationalbowlingacademy.com/C21975

When I was looking it seemed like they were illegal now. Guy at my local pro shop said it was illegal in the sanctioned leagues. But not sure how try it was. Although I plugged it and got the ball re-drilled.

+Tj1056 No, it won't affect your PAP. Like he said, it's your thumbprint as to how you throw the ball. Your finger placement in relation to the pin, cg and mass bias (layouts) will affect the ball reaction. Your local proshop operator should be able to help you figure out the best layout for the reaction you are looking for on the pattern you plan on playing on.

Yuma Scott so the thing is I am using my moms old ball because my old ball split in half and the finger holes are just slightly closer together on hers, do you think that would affect how I throw the ball enough to change the PAP?

No. After you've thrown it a few times I would suggest taking it to a local pro shop and have them check it. Unless you have the tools to check yourself. Chances are, unless you guys have identical balls and layouts, the ball will react differently, but not because of your pap.

Yuma Scott ok cool I think I understand it a bit more, the reading for the PAP is all in how you throw it and not much to do with any other things like oil and stuff. The ball I am using right now to get my PAP is a light oil ball and I am using it on a medium oil track so it does not get much hook lol, the ball does seem to have a lot of flare when I look at the oil line on it though it tends to have a lot of lines as if its always changing the part of the ball its rolling on.

+Tj1056 Yep those are flare lines you are seeing. That's when the ball is transitioning from hook into roll phase trying to stabilize itself. This is controlled by pin to pap distance, mostly. The more unstable the layout, the more flare. I hope this helps.

Hi, “PAP” is an acronym for Positive Axis Point. It’s the axis around which the ball rotates during one complete flare or revolution. The positive axis point most associates with a bowlers release is the most important to reference when programming layouts into the ball to be effective for a specific player and/or lane condition. Thanks for continuing with the Bowling Academy.

Hi Justin. Finding a bowlers Positive Axis Point (PAP) is the same technique and delivers the same information for a two-handed bowler as it does for the traditional one handed bowler.

+Vernon Tyler With "only" 40 degrees of axis rotation or side role we simply can not drill a ball that will do what you describe. A ball having a backend like you describe can only happen when a bowler can increase his/her axis rotation or side role from 55-70 degrees range. For your specs as a bowler, this type of reaction is NOT going to be easy to control. Creating a sharp backend has limited uses on most lane conditions especially on a house shot where there is already the dry area on the outside of the lane at 35-40 feet. I believe it would be much more beneficial if you rethink having a ball drilled to try and achieve this type of reaction.

+Vernon Tyler How was your tilt measured? I assume you bowl on a house shot? What is the length and volume and what other equipment do you currently own/bowl with?

+Josh Writz it just seems alot of my bowling balls if I have any type of speed on the ball. I throw over 14 at the arrows and let it go out to around 7 board at about 42 ish feet and it will only come back and hit the 3 pin head on. that's about as much backend reaction as I will get unless I slow the ball down even more to like 13.5 mph. then I can get the ball to come back to the pocket. but I rather not slow my swing down at all. at itrc my normal ball speed swing is 18 to 19 mph . just at that speed my ball has no back end on it at all. unless lanes have almost no oil.

+Woodshadow Depending on how old you are, and what type of equipment you started with,, it really didnt matter back in the 80s,, the balls were 2 piece balls, meaning one solid core and a cover, now you have Weight blocks that are Symmetrical and Asymmetrical , with pins and CGs , the design of the ball is much more advanced , thus so are the layouts and the characteristics of the ball as well. Thus now it has become more of a science of Revolutions and Gyration ,, where back then, it was more based on the Fundimentals, as that what would create ball motion,, as the ball was more like a TIRE (so to say) and what you did with them would determine where they went and their motions ,, where todays balls Are like an Engine and create their own motions above and beyond what you can control :)

+Woodshadow To further what Johnnie C said, in this day and age, teaching kids or high school students not only about the different aspects of the physical game, but also about the equipment side of the game is important not only for personal reasons but also for money reasons as well. Get too many balls drilled wrong and total waste of money. Get the right balls and specific layouts for these balls and it turns into a good investment for a period of time before they wear out or possibly crack and have to be replaced. Buying many things in life ranging from tires, to dishes to cloths is the same concept, buying good products that have been proven over time makes the money spent worth it in the short n long term. There is soo much to say on this subject about kinds/youth and bowling that 100's of pages could be devoted on this subject, but it all has to start at the base level and that is "what is bowling" and what does a person need to dive into being competitive if one chooses to take that step.

Hi Justin. You can but it wouldn’t be recommended unless the fit was very close to your own. If you are throwing a ball with a span, pitches, or hole sizes different than your own it will change the way the ball sits on your hand and how you release the ball, which will all have an effect on your ball track and axis point. More than likely any data you get using that ball will be different than information you would get using your own equipment. Your local pro shop professional should be able to help you find your positive axis point while using your own bowling ball and it should just take a few minutes.Thanks for watching! Thanks.

sagatbalrog you are a nast. guy. l hope you enjoy your own pisst.

Ball cleaner is good but expensive. I've had good success with a 1:0.75:0.25 ratio of simple green, distilled water, and isopropyl alcohol.

Thanks for the question. The bowling balls should have the same PAP (Positive Axis Point) if measured correctly. The pin placement can be different depending on where and when you want the bowling ball to hook. Check out this video for more on the subject. www.nationalbowlingacademy.com/video/pin-placement-bowling-ball-025349 Thanks for watching.

Hello, I do not see that your active Premium customer. Our Ask Expert Program is for those Premium members. Here is a link to our Premium membership at a deep discounted rate: go.nationalbowlingacademy.com/C22005

@@NationalBowlingAcademy this is worse than not answering at all

Sounds like you need to go to a better bowling center. Or. Go more than once in awhile.

@Marco Deo Not willing to drive an hour to get 'er drilled right? Filthy casual bowler! (I jest, I'd drive an hour. But I gotta drive long distances all the time to do anything fun.) I hate having to redrill a ball, I feel you on that.

Hello and thanks for the question. There are a few reasons why your ball is tracking over your finger holes. Make these adjustments one at a time and eliminate what doesn’t work until you get to what does. Change your release Check your layout (pin placement may have to move up) Check your fingers pitch angles If it’s physical game mechanics or layout adjustments, your pro shop operator should be able to help you out. Thanks for watching.

@@NationalBowlingAcademy thanks for the info... I'm new to bowling 😁

the ball that you have drilled , use it. get the pap point first.then measure it from the center of your grip, to the pap point . example : 5 inches right, half inch up,(you measure it like a mapping, u dont measure it directly because u need to know where the pap exactly is) so then u got your bowlers id already! the next time you wanna drill a ball , you tell :" my pap is 5 inch right , half inch up , i want it the ball to skid longer a bit but high flare when it hooks) so they will do it according to your pap, where the ball rolls relatively. you can copy belmo's layout but you cant copy exactly where he puts his pin or his psa from his finger, because his pap is different.