This video is a topic I lightly touched on in my Papyrus video years ago, but I wanted to give it more focused discussion. If you wanna see more small UT/DR discussions like this, let me know! You can support me on Patreon at patreon.com/dorked, and if you like Papyrus and Undyne, consider checking out Inverted Fate, my Undertale webcomic, as both play significant roles: invertedfate.com/chapters Please do consider checking out my Paper Mario video, too: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/bZ-grMJzqpuUYqM.html And if you like Kingdom Hearts, I have some videos there, too: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/iNupaMSKus_Od3k.html&pp=gAQB Hoping to put out another KH vid sometime soon, and EVENTUALLY that SatAM Sonic vid. My recent Ralsei video: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/hLVloJp-zbq4gIE.html Other UT/DR Analysis: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/aryWe8tzzZfHaJc.html&pp=gAQB Fandom Mandela Effect: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/fMeCfs5lqdjOhaM.html&pp=gAQB DR theories & analysis: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/gduVe8pyv8m6YGQ.html&pp=gAQB Chapters: 0:00 - Introduction 1:17 - Undyne's Intentions & Double Standards 4:54 - Unintentional Cruelty 6:29 - Neutral Endings & Broken Morals 9:00 - Conclusion & Channel Update

It's funny how the fandom portrays sans as overprotective when undyne is the one who really it is with papyrus

Something I never understood is, members of the Royal Guard are supposed to restrain humans and bring them to Asgore, not kill them. Yet they all try to kill Frisk, including Undyne, regardless of if they fight back or not. By that logic, Papyrus is the only guard who actually does his job correctly.

It's interesting how Frisk has the chance to tell a lie to Undyne about animes being real, which i find similar to the lies she tells Papyrus since it's about something she loves and it's part of her life, but if we choose to tell the truth she gets visibly affected but decides to be strong and accept, a reaction I see as a sample of what Papyrus would do if Undyne told him the truth.

One more thing to note regarding Papyrus being tougher than the Canine Unit is that Papyrus has more HP than all the dogs combined. Papyrus is sitting at a comfy 680 HP, Doggo has 70, Lesser Dog has 60, Dogamy and Dogaressa have 108 each and Greater Dog has 105. And if we're going by Check data, Papyrus has higher ATK and DEF than all the dogs as well and the same about of DEF as Undyne. Behind the scenes the stats are a little diffirent, with Dogamy, Dogaressa and Greater Dog having higher DEF than Papyrus but I wouldn't really count that as "correct" inuniverse, as by that logic Asgore has about -30 DEF. Papyrus is also one of the only two monsters we know of who can change our SOUL mode to blue, an ability that is unique to him and Sans. Not even Asgore can change the player's SOUL mode. Not to mention if we're going by popular fan theories, Papyrus' fabled Special Attack that we never got to see ingame involves him using the same blasters that his brother does (as hinted at by his hangout dialogue if you abandon your genocide run). Papyrus is the single strongest monster in Snowdin and has more HP than both of the Royal Guards in Hotland (who are each sitting at 150) and even Toriel (440) who is a Boss Monster. In conclusion, Papyrus is a good fighter who has more combat abilities, control over his attacks and endurance than all of the Royal Guard members we know (not counting Undyne). Justice for my boi, he deserves that Royal Guard spot.

What I also find sad is how even though Papyrus wants to join the Royal Guard for the sole purpose of being popular, he already is, he just never realizes it. In the Neutral Ending where you kill only Papyrus, Undyne leads a rebellion against Toriel and personally throws her out of the castle. Because of Papyrus' death, the underground rejects the policy of treating all fallen humans as friends. And while it is possible that the monsters just sided with Undyne because she's the head of the Royal Guard, as Sans says in his phone call regarding the death or his brother - "nobody wanted to see that happen ever again" which implies that people joined the rebellion specifically because of Papyrus' death. In this case Papyrus is even more beloved by the underground than Mettaton as Mettaton's death doesn't cause any rebellion and ironically enough neither does killing all of the dog Royal Guard members in Snowdin (provided you didn't kill any other monsters).

I definitely think it's a personal bias Undyne has for Papyrus that causes her to try and keep him out of danger. When you kill members of the canine unit Undyne shows disapproval and seems to have a genuine desire to avenge them, but when you kill Papyrus in a neutral run it is completely different. She doesn't bother with any big heroic speech, her theme doesn't even play, she just looks back on how much Papyrus meant to her and states coldly that she is going to kill you. Normally Undyne justifies trying to take your soul to help monsterkind or even the rest of the world, but when you kill Papyrus she just wants to kill you out of pure bloodlust. It really is too bad that we'll likely never see a satisfying conclusion to this plot point because it really does add an interesting layer to Undyne's character and learning the truth could be a "GREAT" moment for Papyrus, but hopefully at the very least the more complex elements of Papyrus's character will be explored further in Deltarune. And since you asked I think a fun topic for another Undertale video would be... Sans. I don't mean all the gaster time and space stuff or the possible connections to Deltarune though, for once I think it would be nice to just talk more about his relations to other characters and who he is as a person. There's the more obvious stuff like him talking to Toriel through the door and how he interacts with his brother but I also think you can learn a lot from how he goes about judgements in the neutral runs. It's also really interesting whenever other characters mention him in phone calls since they never really seem sure what to make of him. It's like characters in-universe see him as about as much of an enigma as we do lol. (Also I've always just found it interesting how Flowey seems to almost adore Papyrus while on the other hand he completely despises Sans)

I love Undyne, but this is still a problem she has. It's disheartening even how in-universe, Sans and Undyne infantilized Papyrus. Anyway, great video as always!

i never realized Papyrus still is the best possible guard Undyne could ever. and that's WITHOUT proper training

I once saw really good fanart of Papyrus sitting curled up into a ball outside undyne's house next to the window he jumped out of, with him in tears from overhearing what she tells frisk. It's been years since I saw that picture and I don't know the name of the artist but it was an amazing piece of art.

Tbh I get why he isn't in the Royal Guard but he makes incredibly good puzzles and deserves to be in the Royal Guard. I mean, he technically does better than the dogs. Much better.

I know this has been talked about at length at this point, but there's something to be said for the fact that not even Toriel, a Boss Monster which has one of the most powerful monster souls, is able to fully hold her magic back from killing Frisk. However, Papyrus is able to easily do the same thing without exerting himself that much. I know that the 'movement in battle' theory has also been going around, and that also plays into how little Papyrus is trying in his battle with Frisk in Snowdin (other characters in battle move side to side when fighting, Papyrus doesn't move AT ALL). He even spares Frisk at the end of his neutral fight, allowing you to kill him. He's a LOT tougher than he looks, and is smart enough to know that fighting a genocidal murderous human is not smart so he chooses to appeal to your pathos instead. Undyne knows of this intellect and strength obviously, but chooses to shove busy work into his hands because she doesn't want his outlook on life to be tarnished by the grim nature of war and history. What she doesn't know however is that he's probably much more intimately familiar with these subjects then she recognizes. Her motivation makes sense from her perspective, but ultimately she fails to consider his feelings in the process. He sat in front of her house for an entire night just for her to not take him seriously like everyone else, that probably doesn't feel great. Great analysis as usual!

i actually never noticed the implications of undyne never telling the truth to papyrus. that's a very fair point. honestly with how the thing is handled in undertale (brushed off as a joke as you said), i actually kinda doubt toby fox himself thought of this.

Absolutely a very very interesting topic people seem to coddle papyrus when in reality he's very aware of the goings on around him, he's got a solid understanding of how the world works and the situation he finds himself in with regards to his brother, and the stakes of everything (despite being a little bit silly and a little gullible) Honestly, he reminds me of me 👀

Something that should be mentioned, is that Papyrus is right outside of Undyne's broken window when she tells frisk this... It's quite possible that he actually knows about the lie and hasn't confronted undyne about it.

Papyrus is the only major character to not have some kind of resolution to their story. I feel like he'll be so much more important in Deltarune.

I honestly wonder what papyrus will be in deltarune Without the goal of being a royal guard and without undyne's lie, he must have gotten a new goal And I highly doubt there's another person making him chase an impossible dream.

I think her greatest concern is that he can't deal a killing blow, and will try to befriend even the most heartless foe. If something truly evil fell down and went for the kill, he would never do the same in return ever, even for self defense. It's kinda sad, though, her plan clearly backfired; he's so desperate to join the guard that he hovers around the ruins and bugs anyone who pops out of them, making himself an obvious target, while she's all the way out in waterfall and can't protect him...

I think this is kinda an example of “Toby forgot”. A moment where Undyne tells Papyrus the truth never happens, unintentionally seeming like the narrative justifies her lying. Another possibility is that since there is so much plot stuff going on at the later parts of the game, Toby simply couldn’t fit a dialogue like this in. For example, at one point you would be able to date Mettaton in his EX form, but you obviously can’t do that in the final game.

I personally think the thing about the Royal Guard Canine Unit being easily spared through petting can be explained away. Who in the right mind would try petting them during their training? It’s likely that Undyne didn’t realize how big of a weakness it is for them, since nobody in their right mind would think to pet them when they’re in combat

i actually forgot about this issue because the majority of the fanbase doesn't even think to address it, but as you have said, the reason why undyne doesn't allow him into the royal guard is that she wants to shoulder the burden of killing humans by herself, and doesn't want papyrus to get involved

I honestly LIKE that Undyne does this. Not because I think it is the right thing to do, but because it shows both how Undyne has flaws and that good intentions don't always lead to good actions. I personally love these smaller videos talking about the less obvious things in Undertale, since much fewer people discuss them. Love your content and hard work!

Yeah I feel bad that Papyrus barely gets any endings where he's in the Royal Guard. 1 bad part is that he knows that he has endings where he isn't in.

It always rubbed me wrong that everyone handles Papyrus with kid gloves. Especially as someone who's been sheltered from things (which I often already knew about) because people think I'm too "innocent," it's really frustrating to watch people treat Papyrus like he doesn't have the same right to basic respect and honesty as everyone else. I loved your point about Papyrus' self-control! I always found it so interesting that even Toriel could accidentally kill you, but there is no situation where Papyrus does. I think people (characters and fandom alike) mistake his propensity for kindness and empathy, for childishness and naiveté. But I've always preferred the idea that every action Papyrus makes is with a decent understanding of possible consequences, and he actively chooses kindness anyway! (ie the fact that he knows you might not change your mind in the genocide route, but still decides to spare you) I'm really curious to see how Papyrus is handled in DR, too. I think it's an excellent opportunity to really dive into his character in a different context!

I have a feeling that the whole lie surrounding Undyne and papyrus is going to play some role in foreshadowing something that is going to happen in Deltarune, since theres been a whole bunch of “history doesn’t repeat itself, it rhymes” kind of parallels between the two games. In fact, the whole conversation where Undyne confesses the truth about papyrus to you is my personal biggest tell towards the Knight Papyrus theory imo.

I remember someone else pitching this idea and it’s been in my head ever since, so I thought I might as well bring it up again while the topic’s still relevant. Make Papyrus a medic for the Royal Guard, if there is such a role. He gets to be an active member of the Guard as well as help/assist people on his team, aligning with both his morals & dreams.

Honestly it’s really cool to see an analysis on this scene, since it’s one of my personal favorites in the story. I love how it both humanizes Undyne, showing how she cares for Papyrus’s wellbeing, while doing so in a way that still shows her being a flawed character. Obviously the lie isn’t right, but it really does feel like Undyne believes it is worth it, especially since she does manage to help Papyrus find new passions, even if the way she does so is clearly wrong. All of this doesn’t even go into what it does for Papyrus’s character, with the big thing being that it foreshadows his death in the genocide run, setting up how Papyrus tries to see the best in people, even if they may not fully deserve it

I hope this gets tackled in Deltarune, since the other dynamic (Toriel and Asgore) that have sone sort of major flaw going on that didn’t get fully resolved (you could argue that the credits where Toriel opens up a school and Asgore does the bushes for her means they made up, but it’s really vague and doesn’t really say much to us) seems that it’ll get this treatment. Of course, it’d be niche to do so, since Sans and Papyrus shouldn’t know anyone, but it’d definitely bring at least some closure, even if it’s not from the original. I actually hadn’t paid much thought to this until now, but after being pointed out, it’s definitely an issue. One of the things I really love to see from your content is the fact that you don’t pick the popular option, but the unexplored and hidden one that brings us down a new rabbit hole or see something differently. Sorry if this sounds like a ramble, but I really do mean everything I’ve said here. Hope things go well, Dorked!

What makes this sadder is the fact that Papyrus was behind the window and even spoke once to get Undyne and Frisk back on track on befriending one another, meaning he probably heard Undyne talk about how she lied to him..

I think that this is the line that contributed the most to the perception of Papyrus as "the precious, innocent cupcake", like you said in the Papyrus character analysis... because it's almost spelling it out.

I wonder if a potential Undyne confession would've been in the Undertale Alarm Clock dialogue. It would've been really cool.

I agree, the game really should have addressed Undyne's lying. Puts a damper on Undyne's and Papyrus's interactions. What's especially weird is people who are against Alphyne claim _their_ relationship is based on lies, when Alphys's lying was really white lies. Undyne leading Papyrus on like that is a far worse lie.

The whole infantilisation of Papyrus always hits super close to home, because I relate to him SUPER HARD as an autistic person. This kind of thing happens all the time, and it’s always been a personal bugbear for me as well when it comes to undertale :[

Even ignoring the fact he's pretty much the strongest Guard Member (personally, I even find his fight a tad harder than regular Undyne), Undyne's lying wasn't right as much as her intentions were. Sending in a bunch of (quite frankly adorable) dogs that get easily distracted by a *stick* to fight and then saying one of the most powerful monsters cannot fight because he refuses to fight lethally in my opinion is pretty messed up. I know she just wanted what she thought was best for Pap, but I don't think lying to him was the way to go about things. She's still awesome, just most definitely not flawless. Then again, that was always obvious Also awesome video, anything involving Paprus is amazing, and you do a really incredible job of breaking everything down

8:05 you should also bring up how sans also hides information from his own brother , ands hides away alot of his problems behind just being lazy and laidback... though sans also is not confronted about the truths he hides either...

This is actually really sad to think about. I knew that Undyne was lying to Papyrus about this, but I never thought about it as in depth as you did. Now that I think about it, it's sad. The longer a lie is believed told to someone, the harder it is for them to accept the truth about things.

"It's OK to tell a white lie to people as long as they are happy". This sentence fired off neurons in me because for a long time, Ralsei gave me vibe of a person with this exact mentality. I know its kinda theorycrafting, but maybe this exact mentality will get explored in Deltarune?

I appreciate this video. I am autistic and relate to Papyrus because I am also someone with a reputation for being far kinder and gentler than most, and while it’s true, it leads people to act as though I am “a smol innocent precious bean” and are very condescending and placate me like Undyne did with Papyrus. This is why I always felt upset with that conversation Undyne has with Frisk. I love Undyne too and I think it should stay as a plot point but for Undyne to see the error of her ways as you said. It’s disappointing. I appreciate your content and all you do for Papyrus’s character, he is my favorite and my comfort character and I’m glad you show his complexity

that's pretty sad that characters see papyrus as naive when he's actually really aware and he's just kind person

This makes me think back to the Disbelief AU, where I think it makes sense with Papyrus’ character on paper: Papyrus eventually realizes that they’re gone forever. Sans, Undyne, all of them, (except for Asgore cuz I keep forgetting that you fight Asgore after you defeat Sans) are gone and they’re never coming back. Papyrus wants to forgive us but he constantly second guesses himself. Papyrus doesn’t really seem to have a happy ending in any form of Genocide AUs. He wants to impress people and is easily hyped up, only to figure out for himself that it probably might not even happen. Yeah, Undyne should’ve told him, but she doesn’t really want to crush his hopes and dreams. Papyrus seemed like he really wanted to join the Royal Guard and Undyne allows him in, but due to his kindness and how he’s treated, Undyne doesn’t really want him to know the truth. Nobody wants to tell him the truth, because honestly? Who would want to make Papyrus cry? But that’s the problem, because it allows for people like Flowey to manipulate him and reel him in, his first ever friend. He may be kind and a pacifist, but he’s not dumb. Sometimes, he may be blinded by kindness, but not completely. He knows how to fight, but he doesn’t kill. Papyrus is like the shield and Undyne is the sword. Undyne gave him the opportunity to be famous Flowey gave him the one true friend that he needed And the rest gave him the support that he needed Bittersweet, but sad in a way.

This is a really interesting subject. I won't lie, while lying isn't good, I kinda agree with Undyne. Papyrus and the rest of her team for that matter, are way too friendly to do what needs to be done when it comes down to it. I think she tries to keep him out of it because that's who she's become the closest with. But ultimately it doesn't stop papyrus from still going after the human anyway.

Here's a possibility for the dogs to be royal guards. Maybe they joined the guard before Undyne so she had nothing to say in the matter

I wholeheartedly agree. To be honest, I really would have loved some kind of scene during the Pacifist ending in which we are able to see them make up. As said by another comment (and in the video), the whole "anime isn't real" scene as well as Alphys' honesty could have lead to Undyne realizing she should tell Papyrus the truth. I mean, I UNDERSTAND why Undyne would lie to him. We see how easily it is for A LITERAL CHILD to kill the strongest monsters there are, and Papyrus is... well... extremely lovable? That being said, I agree it should have been PAPYRUS' choice to make, rather than Undyne. I will say, Papyrus frequently lets it slip that he knows a bit more than he lets on. I wonder if, deep down, he knows that Undyne is lying to him? Maybe, given that whole "Papyrus is implied to be relatively lonely" storyline, he's willing to ignore that fact given his (implied to be) very deep bond with Undyne (which would make this situation even sadder). IDK! Just a thought. Great video, sorry for the long comment, XD.

I've never given this issue a good amount of thought before, and this video brings up a lot of good points. I never really noticed how strange it is that Undyne never brings it up to Papyrus, and we just...never get a clear and canonical answer. Its especially strange how Alphys' arc of coming clean is right there in front of Undyne's eyes, and yet the game does nothing with it. Combining these two arcs in a way, and having Undyne be inspired by Alphys' courage enough to come clean herself would be such an Undertale-y thing to do, but it doesn't happen, and I honestly think the game would be improved if it did.

the way it was sugarcoated so much could have also contributed to why papyrus is misunderstood as a character

I never thought a lot about Undyne lie to Papyrus but this is actually very interesting. I wish it could have been resolved in the epilogue of the true pacifist even if the guard was dissolved. I wonder if part of the reason is because seeing Papyrus' attitude gives Undyne hope and she doesn't want to lose that?

it is interesting to me how both sans and papyrus let off this vibe that they know more than they let on, but sans got more attention for it. nothing against sans, he is my all-time favorite character in Undertale, but it is a bit sad how despite papyrus being doted over both in-game and out of it, hes never really given credit for who he is outside of being ditsy and cute. he may be silly, but hes aware, and hes a genuinely kind, compassionate, and intelligent person. he is, unironically, really frickin cool.

Undyne's my favourite character in any piece of media, period. And I love the Papyrus too, so their friendship is near and dear to me. So watching your character analysis videos I was really hoping you'd do one on her at some point cause I'm pretty sure none exist on youtube. So when I saw this in my recommended, I was a little conflicted cause I've seen many people say they hate the character entirely because of this flaw, which I thought was extremely unfair, so I was glad to see the way it was discussed in this video. I really don't think that Toby thought about it much, and it's sad that it exists because it seems so... Off from the rest of the messaging in undertale. I really wish he didn't include it or if he did, flesh it out a bit more and make Undyne confront him and apologise or something. It kind of reminds me of the King Mettaton ending with how out of left field it is. So I guess this is a thank you for talking about how weird this is and even why Undyne might act this way without hating on the character but still acknowledging their flaws.

Undyne is awesome, but yeah, it would be better to get to see her tell the truth. Papyrus deserves to know, even if it hurts him. I think he would forgive her for lying as well, maybe she’s even worried about that. Thanks for the video! This has always bothered me a bit too, but I never really thought about it.

I wonder if you'll talk about gerson too, he's another underated character and not so many people give attention to him, poor old turtle

I’ve always thought Papyrus was underestimated but the whole ‘he’s a better fighter than the majority of the royal guard’ thing never even crossed my mind! Great video with a lot of great points! Edit: The worst part is that Papyrus would’ve forgiven her. There was never a point that she was too deep in the lie. Papyrus would’ve been hurt, and sad, but he would’ve forgiven her because that’s the kind of monster he is

I think it mostly boils down to the state of affairs in the Underground; the idea that the monsters were ever going to leave was becoming fleeting to most, and letting Papyrus believe he was a member of the royal guard was a mostly harmless white lie that brought him a big amount of fulfillment. Undyne probably didn't like lying to him, but stomping out his spirits when so little optimism was to be found anywhere probably didn't seem all that ideal either.

I don't need to speak of THAT tumblr post that speaks of papyrus not moving ONCE during his entire boss fight? "the most energetic character, not moving ONCE?"

I think a video talking about Sans’s mental health despite how he acts on the outside would be interesting, since most of the undertale fandom mischaracterizes him so much, either making him too serious and emotional or not serious and super happy. And it would be a good video to discuss some of Undertales more darker and serious hidden themes.

This friendship is strangely relatable, which is both interesting and sad. What would happen if there was a sudden change of events in the middle of *any* route that forced the revelation of the truth? Would the results be different from what we've seen in the pacifist ending?

I have a personal headcannon that papyrus was still outside her window when she told frisk about not want papyrus to join the Royal Guard and overheard it Then he decided to forgive her as he understands her reasons and just never brought it up

I think the real cause of the discrepancy is Toby very often goes for funnies in place of actual characterization. The canine unit really shouldn't be literal joke enemies (or royal guards), but since he was REALLY into his ideas for all sorts of dog jokes, and that it'd be funny if they were royal guards and yet still acted like dogs, he went through with it even if it made Undyne's words about papyrus seem very strange. I personally accept that it's more an issue of the dogs being presented the way they are rather than papyrus and undyne's relationship

awesome video, you are one of the few people to still make Undertale contend and you also manage to provide thought provoking revaluations of this game. i feel like your videos are actively scrubbing away the Brain rot of the fandom tainting my perception of these Character. not that that was such a bad thing but it is nice to remember them for who they actually are instead of the almost caricature that they are often portrayed as.

Papyrus is so incredibly competent and focused at what he does and people constantly act like he is dumb and childish. He's upbeat, kind, and has some trouble with sarcasm at times, sure, but those aren't dumb or childish traits! His treatment like this makes me very sad :(

...I honestly never thought about or considered this. It had never occurred to me that this is one of those lingering threads in Undertale...

Now I want a dramatic fan comic where Papyrus confronts Undyne about this

This is COMPLETELY unrelated but your voice is EXACTLY how I imagine Alphys sounding, your digital name is fitting :3 Great video BTW!! Also glad someone else finally brought up that papyrus would be a stronger royal guard then the other guards!

This is an interesting point of view, but considering all that you said, I think that it might just be that Toby Fox just didn't think about that. He's an incredible writer, but I feel like people often forget that he's also human, and therefore not perfect. He can make some mistakes in his writing too. It can be seen as part of her character, but you're right to think that this should have been adressed but isn't in the end. But let's not be too harsh on Toby for it. He still made one of the best experiences of storytelling and of character writing there is out there, and that's already one heck of an accomplishement.

You were on the right track when you said Undyne didn't want anyone else to suffer from battle, and placed it all on herself. There's a reason why she's labelled as the True Hero, because she is. It is the mentality of someone who's seen war and doesn't want others to have to witness it as well. It doesn't necessarily only mean preventing Papyrus from getting hurt, it also means preventing Papyrus from getting too mentally scarred. She doesn't want him to change. It's clear she really adores him as a friend and would rather put herself in danger than him. It might feel condescending and it is a little bit, but I understand why.

undyne's reasoning makes sense to me. he proved that he would stop at nothing to become a member of the royal guard, but if he did then he would very likely end up dying. he refuses to kill you no matter what, and every single outcome of his fight results in him sparing you, leaving himself open to being killed instantly. the only possible outcomes for fighting him are him sparing you, which would go against his job, and him dying

Honestly? This is part of the reason I love the geno route. Not you being evil and killing everyone, but because of how the main characters react, often showing the most heroic sides of them. Ex. Undyne being able to revive herself as a true hero, and Mettaton putting his ego aside to defend the Underground. And then there's Papyrus. Despite you seeing him mainly as goofy in the Pacifist Route and not taking him seriously, even possibly agreeing with Undyne that he can't join the guard. There's hints at his greater character there, but it's only really noticeable if you're looking for the details, combined with how tough he actually is (like how you pointed out his ability to prevent himself from killing you shows true mastery over his attacks). The rest is largely hidden in the neutral routes and the genocide route. Maybe it being passed off in the Pacifist ending is intentional, maybe Toby didn't want to wrap up every single character's story, maybe he wanted to reward people for noticing the intricacies in his characters and realizing the True Pacifist Route isn't _perfect._ Or maybe he's just human and simply overlooked this. But god that genocide scene. It's genuinely so heartbreaking, and like you said it has genuinely stopped people from continuing. Papyrus is his most heroic here, but unlike Undyne and Mettaton who give their all to fight, Papyrus opens his heart up and in his bravery, faces down a genocidal maniac with only words. I do think Toby definitely wanted to go for something bigger with Papyrus's character under the surface. Yeah, Papyrus can be goofy and a bit oblivious (even if some of the neutral endings seem to confirm he's aware of the consequences of your killing and doesn't actually fall for the lies people tell him), but he also has some strong moral convictions and doesn't have a pure because he's ignorant, he has a pure heart because he stays strong despite the tragedy. That's possibly my favorite part of Papyrus's character. By the way, for anyone that reads this and loves these parts of Papyrus's character as much as me: Go read Handplates. It's a webcomic that explores Papyrus and Sans's origins, and while it has a ton of angst, it's also great at showing Papyrus's morality. Highly recommend it.

Given what's been discussed in this and the Papyrus video, I think Papyrus is dangerously close to becoming a people-pleaser. He seems to code-switch to quite a large degree when Sans or Undyne are around, while sounding almost apathetic (at least in comparison) when it's just him and the player. He doesn't see anything wrong with changing his personality so drastically, which is extremely concerning - especially when Sans and Undyne seem to treat him like a child when he needs to be treated like an equal.

I always assumed Papyrus _knew._ like, when he left the hangout, I thought he was just hanging right outside, still in earshot. He just acted like he didn’t so Undyne wouldn’t feel bad.

I remember this bothering me too and it ultimately led to Undyne being one of my faves lol. Like, idk, it adds a lot of dimension to her as the guard captain who wants to keep everyone safe, but also someone who has people who are close to her that she won't be completely honest with because of that mentality. Or maybe that's just my own interpretation. Great video btw!

I really like this video, but, i think something you missed is that papyrus is the only monster that wont kill you. Even with Toriel you can die. And sure with frisk that doesnt really matter if your playing pacifist, but monsters dont really know that. For most of them, they probably assume humans are bloodthirsty and will do anything for survival. That seems like what they've been taught, they've been taught to be scared and angry at humans. A parallel to how humans view monsters as, well, monsters. So Undyne not expecting the other royal guard members to be wooed makes a lot mroe sense. She doesnt worry about them because the possibility doesn't even occur to her. Its likely she just assumes the human is going to come in swinging, like what we get w/ genocide assuming you don't do betrayal kills. I think this puts a lot more validity to her motives, Papyrus is the only royal guard that will try to spare you with no pushing from frisks side in a genocide route. And if you do end up killing him it's just proving Undyne right. I definitely still think theres a lot of holes in her logic. This doesn't necessarily make what Undyne good but definitely makes it more logical on her end.

I remember seeing an undertale fan comic that basically said “The royal guard is made up of almost dogs. Do you really want Papyrus the SKELETON to be joining it?”

I feel like this essay video taught me something other than undertale lore. I like I've learned an actual lesson. This is a really good video. Great job 👍

This reminds me of my theory that Papyrus knows about the other timelines. In the Pacifist ending, he says it's the "worst possible ending," which implies that he knows about the game having multiple endings. If you kill him in Genocide, he says he knows you can do a little better, which implies that he knows about the Pacifist timeline. And if you kill him in Neutral, he's pretty chill about it. It's like he knows the game will be reset and he'll be brought back to life. This would also explain why he's not worried about what happens to Frisk after they're captured. He knows they'll just reset if they die.

i never considered how messed up it was for undyne to treat papyrus this way, but you make a lot of good points. it makes me happy that we as a fandom are growing to realize that even our favorite characters from undertale are flawed (as people, not through writing). really loving your videos lately, good job :)

It’s nice when people don’t talk about the same 3 characters every now and then

In my head, Undyne lies to pap so pap stays the same. Papyrus is too easily changed. He became a cooking madman because Undyne was trying to get him to focus on something else under the guise of royal guard training. He relentlessly patrols the streets to the point where he views resting as slacking (mainly with Sans). Pap works so hard to become a royal guard that he neglects his relationships outside of Sans and Undyne, its why he has so few friends, while Sans seems to have the entirety of Snowdin. Can you imagine the change that might occur in Papyrus if Undyne said “You can’t join the royal guard cus you’re too nice to ever kill a human”? We might just get something like Underfell as Papyrus changes to try and fulfill his dreams. In my head canon, despite it being a lie, Undyne lies to Papyrus to protect his innocence

Something I never thought about before. It's awsome I'm still hearing new takes about undertale in 2023

I once saw a comic that had a pretty good alternative reason for Undyne to not want Papyrus in the royal guard. More then half of the members that we see are dog monsters, and Papyrus is a skeleton, and the dog monster members of the royal guard might see him as a bunch of chew toys stuck together. I know this is never implied in-game, but it makes as much sense (if not more) as Undyne's canon reason for lying to him.

If you think about it, its kinda sad that everyone lies to Papyrus because they feel bad for him. I do feel like he is actually capable of being really good in the royale guard, but everyone overlooks his talent and only thinks about how "Innocent" and "Carefree" He is, and that leaves us not being able to see his full potential. During Sans' final attack, he references Papyrus', but, as you know, the dog came in and stopped it from actually happening. I feel like Papyrus could be actually super powerful, its just hes never given the chance to show it off. It's not like Mettaton where he knew what was going on and he was being manipulated, Papyrus is completely left in the dark for this.

3:16 wait i didn't know about that alternate version of the dialogue, that actually confirms he has blasters holy heck, the other one was a pun, but right here he was literally being serious.

This might be the very first criticism of Undertale's story and character writing that I've seen that feels deep enough to consider seriously. It makes a lot of sense

Honestly the more I think about why Undyne lies to Papyrus I really agree with your reason regarding Undyne wanting to avoid putting the burden of pain and stress though maybe it’s just me but I always saw the relationship of the two being a younger sibling looking up to their soldier older sibling and wanting to be just like them. Even if the younger sibling understands what the results of it are the older sibling wouldn’t really ever want to put that level of pain of stress on them. I do feel there should’ve been a scene of Papyrus learning the truth though I kinda get the feeling Papyrus would be less upset about Undyne lying and likely understand the reason she did it

The way you describe how all other major characters got to own up to their mistakes, and Undyne didn't makes it feel like an abandoned character arc. Maybe, Toby thought that making two character arcs for Undyne only would be too much, or maybe he didn't have the resources to complete it...

This is similar to something that happened in One Punch Man even though the motive was different: Saitama is the protagonist and he got so strong that he can defeat everyone with a simple punch, but until now it's hard to understand how he got that strength, and he has a "disciple" called Genos, he is a cyborg hero who wants to be as strong as Saitama and be trained by him, but Saitama doesn't know how he can do that and doesn't want to let Genos down, so he decides to give Genus a goal "for now". Saitama doesn't really intend to train him and gave him this task to spend time, but he doesn't actually have a way to train him and what he makes up about training the mind is in fact true since Genos' body is mechanical, so giving him a goal that can actually help him improve in battle doesn't seem so bad. But it would still be good if he told Genos the truth, specifically since at the moment the two are really friends and even though Genos has a lot of respect for Saitama he would understand.

Something that needs mentioning as well is: Undyne sees someone who can be pretty strong, and produce some powerful attacks, but always be able to pull them back from doing any actual serious damage, and doesn't want them as a trainer for the guard? The dangers of combat injury are the main reason people need actual combat to recieve proper combat training, and since that's not a thing with Papyrus that means he could be an incredibly useful asset to the royal guard without ever even needing to get anywhere close to actual battle.

I used to wonder about this myself. You covering this in way more detail was really cool to see!

I think this might be further proof Papyrus was only 15 during the events of Undertale. Putting an adult who understands their kindness could get them killed in a position of danger is a lot easier than putting an overly confident teen in that position. I think Undying is walking a line of not wanting to crush a kid's dreams, while also waiting for Papyrus to become mature enough for her to have a serious talk to him about the uglier side of being a royal guard.

I have some things to add: Papyrus’s stats are higher than Undyne’s, he takes more vines to be constricted by Flowey, and him being unable to kill you is more skilled than Toriel, especially since the goal is to capture for Asgore, not kill. So when Undyne says he’s tough, he’s actually outright stronger than her. Not her Undying form though. However, I feel Papyrus can have his own DT form if Undyne got her’s from her facade to be tough for everybody else, since that’s what Papyrus does too, except to put a smile on everyone’s face. I feel the only reason he didn’t get a DT mode is that his message wouldn’t get across, when he had legitimate faith in the human. I remember rewatching Jacksepticeye’s playthrough about a year ago, trying to spot new details or remember why I liked characters the way I did. I was expecting a fun time with Undyne, but instead I realized how mean she actually is. I realized Deltarune’s take on her isn’t actually de-characterizing her…

I think the real reason why undyne doesn't want papyrus to be in the guard is because of the dogs and the funny joke that even the grim adventures of Billy and Mandy made where grim got dismantled by dogs.

I love how Papyrus is genuinely a good royal guard, one of the best. He’s strong, he can control his magic greatly, he isn’t easy to sway, he has a good sense of justice. Most of all, he doesn’t try to take your soul, he tries to take YOU. He seems to hope that YOU can live after they use your soul to break the barrier.

I like you discussing character dynamics that fly over most people's heads. I wonder what others there may be out there.

Pypyrus is a really fit monster for the royal guard. The way some other monsters veiw him though changes his chances to join and make his dream! That's sad- he makes efforts to his traps and puzzles even if they aren't as good or effective. He's clearly stronger than how the others perceive him to be and knows much more than anyone tell him. Sure he can be oblivious, like how he trusted flowey. But he's still a great monster for the royal guard. I know after freeing everyone his true dream was to ride a car ((and feel the wind on his skin and the breeze hit his hair)) but I really wanted to see him have a happy moment of joining the royal guard. :( but then again if he were freed anyways then his dream would've been useless. Eh, just my thoughts?

Imagine how messed up it would be if there would be a chapter where papyrus is play Able as party member. And you can do Alternative Route. It would be lying to Papyrus all Over again.

That's a really interesting observation, never thought of those lines this way.

I don't know what to say here, I just started watching the video, I'm just commenting to support this channel. Edit: The dogs being weak part is fair.

I never had this perspective before, but it makes a whole lot of sense. Thanks for clearing things up and making all of thi into something even deeper! I love your analisis videos.

I can't believe this flew right over my head for so long. This was a very interesting video, I really enjoyed it, keep it up!

THANK YOU SO MUCH! I came to the same conclusion back in 2016 when I first played the game, and wondered if anyone ever thought the same. I love both Undyne and Papyrus (especially) a ton so it was so disheartening that such a detailed was skimped, it's bothers me to this day. Anyway, I love the video and am on a mission to watch more of yours! Hope you have a great day!

I always felt like she didn’t let him in not because she was worried he’d be physically hurt, but mentally hurt. We know that he’s unwilling to kill and she might be worried that if it was “kill or be killed” situation he just wouldn’t be able to do it. Ending a life of another person requires a huge amount of willpower and can even have lasting affects on people forever, while it’s never really shown I imagine being in the royal guard wouldn’t be very fun, you wait around until it’s time to kill and then you wait around again. I feel like she didn’t want to let him in because it would’ve been far less glamorous than he’d imagine, you have to do lots of things to get to the top of any career let alone one where you kill people, and to get to the captain of the royal guard I imagine the things you’d have to do would be less than ideal. I know this doesn’t excuse her actions, but she does acknowledge that he is tough, so I feel that she’s more concerned about the potential trauma that comes with being a member of the royal guard than Papyrus being weak. Maybe that’s just me though.

ive never really thought about this before but yeah that is pretty weird. you'd think it'd get at least some mention or resolution or something but i guess not.