Gl;hf

They seem pretty easy to make

@@Robert-zx2df that's because they are easy to make for the most part. 1.grab oversized foil sheet. 2. add packing/filler material then place another foil sheet over the top. 3.fold foil edges together over two times. 4. add double sided adhesive strips to one side of panel. 5. peel non stick backing off double sided adhesive, fold foil over sticky side of panel. 6. add more foil and double sided adhesive to add structural integrity around the edges and corners. 7. cut small hole in panel, then attach hose and evacuate air. 8. cut a square of adhesive backed foil then place over hole without losing vacuum. The last step would be easy to cover if the hole was a sports ball needle sized hole, problem is commercial panels use a 3/4 to 1 inch hole.

@@zeroumashi2947 It is a little more involved. Most plastics (and adhesives) are gas permeable and also off gas. Typically there are multiple layers of both plastic (PET/polyester is a common one) and aluminum foil to try to reduce gas and moisture transfer as much as is possible. Then, these usually have Getters and desiccants in them to absorb/adsorb gases and moisture. This is to help the VIP last as long as possible. Even with all these tricks--a lot of them are rated at full insulation capacity for something like 10 to 20 years depending. They tend to be fragile, as the video mentions.

yes, i'm well aware that the adhesive isn't regular double sided tape. It's most likely one of the commercial 3m vhb formulas, they have so many varieties with different properties. As for casing sometimes mylar is used. even stainless steel is also used to further reduce permeance. They tend to be fragile because they make them with really thin material and haven't bothered to change how they're made. I was researching about it long before i commented 2 months ago. There wouldn't be a need for getters if the panels were prefilled with an high r value inert gas and then evacuated, or if assembled inside a vacuum. I have an idea for an improved vacuum insulation panel that will keep it's r value if punctured. I just don't have access to the tools to build it, the materials i can get.

@@zeroumashi2947 - what would you need to test your idea - or at least get feedback on the idea? Is your idea different from what you already laid out? Thanks

Industry can probably make them in different sizes, but I'm also trying to develop a DIY version, and I'm limited to 16" wide because of the equipment I am using.

@@justinw1765 How did this go? I'm trying to develop a DIY version as well and am not having much success...Did you get one to work??

Google

If the glass didn't break and was perfectly sealed, then yes if you exclude the obvious light going through the window. Units that actually exist have to use spacers so the glass doesn't collapse and have an R value of like 14 per inch maybe?

Yes and no! You will insulate from convection and conduction, but radiation will not change. Radiation tends to e the highest way heat loss occurs through windows. The way to combat radiation is through Low-E coatings that are used.

Yes, this does exist and is getting fairly mainstream now. There are 3 main brands: NSG Spacia, Landvac and Fineo.

You need to use high quality, thick/durable glass. I've tried using the super cheap, thin stuff from Lowes/Home Depot, and it is far too fragile and weak, even with supports (bamboo columns in the middle). Then the material of the window frame has to be gas impermeable. You can't use wood or regular plastic alone for example, because these are far too gas permeable. You can put aluminum tape on the inside and outside though, or use specialized epoxies rated for vacuum use. But as folks mentioned below, you still have to deal with radiation transfer via IR. As mentioned, specialized coatings help with that. Some coatings allow the glass to transmit heat via the Sun, but block/reflect regular heat (from within the house, our bodies, etc This is because they are at different wavelength ranges). Others reflect both. If you're building a more passively heated home, say by having large windows on the south side, you obviously want to go with the first type of coating (that transmits solar heat), but in the rest of the house, you want to block/reflect both to help keep it cooler in the warmer months.

@@justinw1765 have you tried making your own ?

Did you ever find the name of the company?? I'm wanting to use VIPs for a tiny house on wheels build but the tech isn't quite there yet from what I've seen

the denser a material is it better conducts energy because the molecules are closer to one another and they spread energy by mooving and the denser more closely packed materials transport energy faster, materials that have low density are worse at transporting heat and the materials that use many pockes of air inside them essetially become less dense, so if you remove as much air you get less molecules and the lower you can get the better the insulation is, for example insulated bottles have a vacuum so that heat cant move thru because there is not much to move thru. I hope i've been clear

Not so much about being a good insulator more about being a poor conductor

The vacuum works just like the vacuum in your thermos, except… the rigidity to maintain a volume of vacuum in your thermos is the exterior metal and interior stainless steel. The Mylar doesn’t have any strength to maintain a volume of vacuum so it presses the rigid fiberglass.

Air is a good insulator, but relatively nothing (aka vacuum) is even better, because there are far less atoms/molecules to transfer/exchange heat energy via conduction and convection. Vacuum can allow energy/heat transfer via IR aka a form of light, which travels like a wave, vs the particle travel via conduction and convection. But Vacuum insulation panels usually deal with that by using reflective, shiny aluminum which reflects IR energy (somewhat like a mirror reflects visible light). Conduction, convection, and radiation (IR light waves) are the ways that energy gets transferred from one thing or space to another. Vacuum insulation with IR reflection, effectively mostly shuts down most of that transfer. But not completely, because you still have matter inside that is providing a path of conduction--in this case the fiberglass fibers. These get squished and even more dense during the evacuating process. The most efficient vacuum is when you have nothing between two different structural surfaces, like in an vacuum insulated thermos. Vacuum insulated thermos's though, can get away with that, because the gap is fairly small, the material (steel) combined with the specific shape (cylindrical), is very strong. It is much, much harder to do this with a vacuum insulation panel, which is why almost all of them use some kind of core-spacing-structural material in the middle (either fiberlgass batts, pressed fumed silica, perlite, wood fibers, etc). Then in vacuum insulation panels, there are other issues. Most plastics (especially most of the less expensive ones) are both gas and water vapor permeable and off gassing--especially under vacuum conditions. If you only used plastic alone, eventually the vacuum would be compromised. They have to use aluminum layers with the plastic layers, to really slow all that down, because Al is not permeable and not off gassing in nature. They also put packets of substances in the VIP's to absorb and/or adsorb gases (from the plastic) and water vapor--thus also extending the usable life of the VIP.

bluesky it's a path, not a destination. Have to think how a challenge can become an innovation

@Salvatore Guidone And there's absolutely no way to make them more sturdy and use something other than glue or use a glue that lasts longer? Maybe make it so they are connected and can be re-vacuumed with a "pipe"(or whatever the best material/system would be) network or however that would be fixed? I get the way it's implemented currently is bad but there could always be a way around problems that aren't as much as a hassle as the current method. Even if it requires an on-site production of an entire 300 foot wall. A mobile production line on two or three flat beds for a few days.

@Salvatore Guidone What "glue" are you referring to? AFAIK, VIPs are ultrasonically welded.

A very high quality/well constructed VIP can last up to around 50 years. Decent quality ones last up to around 25 years. Lower quality ones can be compromised within about 10 years. And no, the R value doesn't become very low, because most of these are already using conventional insulation inside them, like fibgerlass, fumed silica, foam, perlite, etc. So, it just goes back to normal with air for their thickness (exception would be the foam ones, since foam typically degrades insulation value wise, over time anyways). But yes, they are indeed fragile--especially as far as puncture goes. I think there are some companies that make them more robust, but of course, you will pay for that. You could make your own plywood boxes or the like to protect more fragile ones, but plywood now a days isn't exactly cheap either. Plasticized aerogels (typically with made with polyimide plastic) are indeed exciting, but still *hella expensive,* and I don't see any dramatic price drops anytime soon. One, the supply is just not there yet, the base materials (like the polyimide) are expensive themselves), and the market isn't there yet. Did I say hella? I meant, *expensive AF.* You would have to be rather wealthy to insulate your home with plasticized aerogel. I think the next best market for this material, is for like thin, lightweight, smallish camp mats for more serious backpackers. A thin layer of this, combined with a regular air mattress will provide you a lot of insulation, at low weight. But it is still too expensive for even this market. Maybe even for the yuppy Patagonia crowd. So the cool thing about VIP's, is that if you're smart and resourceful enough, you can make decent quality ones at home for relatively low cost (minus the specialized equipment to pull vacuums). Most of the materials involved are relatively inexpensive to downright cheap. It is the specialized processes that you are more so paying for commercial-market wise.