Great video Tim! I worked as a machinist through my 20's. A few things we forget about or are unaware of as consumers are things like cost per unit. Cost of scale plays a big part in how much a final product costs ultimately. The more made at once usually translates to lower price per unit. They entire synth market probably never gets any ware near the numbers in the PC or mobile phone space, which is in part why we've seen prices of phones and computers fall off a cliff.. They make billions of those VS around 3000 Moog One's for example. Also, labor is a huge factor in the process. A product made in a country that pays nearly nothing to employees has a leg up, is sad that happens today, but is true. So where it's made can have a huge impact as well. In general based on my experience in that industry for a decade was that materials never cost more than the labor payed to employees. But that plastic euro rack chassis likely was formed in a mold.. Now a single mold is capable of probably thousands of units, but the process to make the mold itself is extremely complex and very expensive. Again the cost per unit here helps a ton, the more you can make quickly the cheaper they cost. Anyway, that's my 2 cents. Love your vids 👍😁

I was fortunate enough to be a guest at Ensoniq’s plant in Philly years ago. 🤠 nice guys, limos and BBQ, their engineers let us design a piece of equipment on paper and helped us calculate its market pricing. 🤔 by the time we were finished, our little piece of gear (should’ve sold for $2000) was going to cost the consumer about $50,000.00 🤣🤣🤣 this is a great video but you’ve not even scratched the surface regarding the economies of pricing. 👍

Tim, I love the humor! Telling us a bedtime story works perfect with your calm demeanor and cozy sweater. Honestly, you have a very calming effect in this crazy world that has so much loud noise begging to be heard. Keep up the great work!

So much truth in this. But you watering your plants explaining your take on humor was the most intriguing moment.

As someone else had mentioned. These companies are probably not selling alot of units. But your spot on. More affordable and cheaper gear is always going to benifit the consumers.

Agree the eurorack boxes are outrageously expensive! I was even surprised at the cost of the Behringer case. Great video btw. Thanks

You're saying everything right. I live 30km from Moscow, we also have huge prices for foreign synthesizers. You say everything correctly, manufacturers without competition are completely brazen. sorry for my English, I'm writing through google translator :)

Hello Tim, thank you for your very nice and interesting videos. I am an amateur musician but a professional in polymer processing. I agree that prices seems crazy high for those "piece of plastics". The fact is that a large mold, especially with moving cores to create intricate parts, holes or other features, would cost easily several 100 thousands pounds/EUR. This is why Injection Molding is typically used for large scale production (100.000 to millions). If you were to make only 1000 cases, the mold alone would contribute 200 pounds to the price ! Modern 3D printing techniques (for the mold or the part) or use of softer metal (Al) for molds can bring pricing down for small series. But as some other comments pointed out, with conventional techniques, small series do suffer from huge fixed costs, and Injection Molding is really not intended for few thousands shot...

As someone who bought the 16 voice Moog One, I am not neutral on its value proposition, but I can say that the inspiration it has provided me with over the last 18 months has been pretty much invaluable. Especially in this weird Covid reality, where I rarely get to do much that would constitute normal, I have been able to pass the days exploring this fabulous instrument. I also ordered the Prophet 10...whoops!

Thank you Tim for making this. Always look forward to your videos and they are so well put together. So my thoughts on all this... I know we have people say " I bet this thing only costs a penny to make! " We have all heard that. While that might be true, people never consider all the overhead and other expenses that have nothing to do with the materials; Staff, payroll, designers, prototypes, hours of research, facility costs, web development, online marketing, product photography, video production, actors & models, packaging, box design, and the list goes on. All this just to get the gear out the door. So I think with this perspective we can see why the markup. Otherwise without it, I believe these products would never exist. Love what you do. Loyal fan.

Damn Tim, you nailed it. I don't normally like to comment on stuff, but I felt in line with this big time. I am a huge fan of synths and own 30-40 (haven't counted in awhile) full size synths/samplers/etc. For me the struggle has always been, with newer synth market, value vs. used now. With synths like the Virus TI/TI2 series it's hard to compare a lot of the modern stuff with their price tag. Even new, the TI2 (2015) was going for $2,000-2,500 and at the time was considered the ferrari of synths. Yet, today people are saying things like the Dave Smith stuff, like you, is comfortably expensive. Why though? Feature-per-dollar they're outrageous compared to previous pieces of gear. The Pro-2 is laughable when compared to any of the Waldorf stuff, even if you wanted to tap into the Blofeld. Yes, with the blofeld you're getting awful menu diving, but for the features and actual control of your sound? Not even comparable. I thought Studiologic was going to really push the boundaries with the Sledge line being what it was for it's price as well as mentioned the Behringer Deepmind series which were rather revolutionary once you factor in the modulation capabilities. Even then though, I'd rather drop $800 on a Sledge 2.0 black edition than a Pro-2. The only difference is you're getting to tell people the Pro-2 is analog. That's it though. You're paying an extra $1,300 to be able to say it's analog. In a mix, no one knows the difference. Much like the Moog. It's the Apple of synths. You're paying for the fact you can say it's a Moog and that it's made in America (well assembled, the components are still chinese). For some, this has value. Being able to say you have a modern Sequential Circuit or Moog synth. However, get your hands on an Ensoniq ESQ-1, or SD-1, or even the unicorn FIZMO. See what kind of sound designing you can do there and then look at your price tag. An SD-1 is a masterpiece when it comes to sound creation and hell I paid $150 for mine at a Music-Go-Round 3 years ago. This is why I entirely support Behringer. They're shaking the cages of these companies and telling everyone: "Look! It's so cheap to produce these devices, that we can do the same thing for 1/10th the price!" Is the build quality the same? Not really. Will a Behringer System 100 clone set last as long as the Roland remakes? Probably not. Can I buy 2-3 of those modules for the same price of the Roland and will those 2-3 last longer than the Roland one? Absolutely! That's usually the argument you see though, "it's not a Moog" or "it's made in America." So what? I'm not going to over-pay for a mediocre product just because it's got a fancy name or is made in a specific region (again, assembled). This is why I LOVED that you used the book at the beginning, because it truly touches the state of our synth community. In the past, companies got killed by their overpriced monstrosities. Like the FIZMO for Ensoniq I mentioned before or the Alesis Andromeda. They, like the Moog One, were priced out of the market, and in turn they lost their asses on those and nearly crumbled the companies. People boycotted them (except those rich folks that got the few that were sold) and didn't bother with them. The Eurorack market REALLY needs the competition to put it into realistic standards, and folks should stop showing off how much they spent on something as a sign of talent or status. Also, finally to address the power supplies? 2 separate voltage power supplies have been around for 30+ years and are dirt cheap. You can get a dual voltage psu for around $30 if you shop outside of the eurorack market and look more at electronic component market. Most redemption-style arcades run on dual voltage power supplies that do +/-5v and +/-12v to control the lights and the circuit boards separately and they go for $10-30 but need some smarts on the splicing of powerlines and what-not. Regardless if going DIY to replicate that TipTop box with a vacuum plastic press you're talking AT MOST $80 for the whole case in cost with AT MOST 1 hour of labor at $20/hr. so $100 out the door cost. From the outside looking in, as I've only been building my case for 3 weeks now, Eurorack has always been a nose-in-the-air setup because of how the boutiques market themselves. I was happier than a pig in shit when I saw Behringer moving into that market and that's why I just started joining Eurorack community, with my home-made box that cost all of $200 in parts/labor for a 9u that's going to be filled with a replica 100, 55, and 2500. After that I MIGHT look into the boutiques if they start coming down. Dreadbox definitely has been catching my eye spitting out $100 modules as well. I'd love to see some nameless/white label panels going for pennies on the dollar on some of these "fancy" modules like Maths. Sorry for the dissertation, but I'll leave it with this: What you paid for it, isn't what impresses us, it what you did with it that does.

It's a great time to be a synth lover...so many choices for reasonable prices, plus all the different types of synthesis that's available makes anything possible. I used to lust after the original stuff but modern manufacturers have gone above and beyond.

I think the same about those plastic moulded dust shields for some synths that cover the top panels but don't prevent the dust getting under the keys where it's actually going to make its way inside - or the output / input sockets in the rear which are going to fill with dust also if left uncovered.

Interesting video analysis Tim👌 For the price of one Moog One, some folks might choose maybe 4 or 5 synths as a collection with different characters rather than one (albeit the Moog One is tri-timbral with fx)...e.g a vintage analog subtractive poly synth, a modern digital FM synth, a wavetable synth, a 3 osc monosynth with CV, a drum machine / sampler sequencer and some fx pedals. Ultimately which ever synth(s) inspires creativity and brings you happiness is most important, and that is priceless.

The Prologue 16 is mid-level like the REV2. I had a DM12, which was great, but the sound of the Prologue 16, with 32 VCO's + multi-engine (and compressor) takes it to the next level. Super value for the sound, especially using Tim's oscillators.

I enjoy your videos-and you've made some very good point here. I suspect we will see more companies moving into the polysynth world soon-with lower prices. At least I hope so! I think when you get to the $4-$8k zone for a synthesizer you start wondering if you could buy a car for that much money. Of course-some can justify it, but others with a music "hobby" like myself cannot. I will wait for the competition to ramp up more before buying a polysynth. I can see that competition coming (and several below do too)!

"Comfortably expensive." Love that expression!

Always treasure your reasonable, sober analysis of things

Nice video Tim. Someone had to say it. I think in the niche market, like Eurorack where items are not being churned out in their thousands, then the design/tooling element plays a bigger part in the cost. That said, the vacuum formed lid, once the tooling has been done (which is moderately expensive) would come in at around 30p in terms of materials and energy. Add a bit of shipping and you still have an overpriced widget. I have a Eurorack system and when friends see it one of the first questions they ask is "How much?" and I'm sure they are thinking "...well it's a kit so it must be quite cheap". At that point I am genuinely embarrassed to tell them how much it was. There are people in the world who don't earn as much in a month as an average unit costs and yet you hear some saying, "oh, just go out and buy it", which is humiliating for our wee community. Emperor's new clothes - I think so.

The profit margin isn't as high as you think on that piece of plastic lid because the sales volume is so low. The mold for that piece of plastic is expensive. Profit margin is heavily dependent on the number of manufactured units.

Great addition to the dialogue. On that mantis case, the closest analogue to think of is a PC power supply and PC case. The PS needs multiple clean voltages and the case has some machining work for fitting components. A PS will run you $25 and a cheap case another $25, and we can figure the margins are slim but there. So a Eurorack case is probably “worth” $50-$75 tops. Even if you factor in low-rate production and double that, $100-150 tops. Clearly synth manufacturers are taking advantage of the “boutique” market to overcharge. Then you get willing shills on message boards who defend such pricing to assert the size of their wallets. Another interesting avenue to explore is comparing a Behringer product (who claim to price on the basis of components + margin) with its most similar competitor.

I paid $4,500 for my prophet V synth back in 1979! The newest synth prices are actually cheaper due to the lower cost of technology and production in China.

Love this video format Tim! Cool storybook intro and adding in some humor. Nice work.

Everything depends on production volume. The first piece of plastic produced is extremely expensive, the milionth costs nothing. You need special tool for every shape you want to mold and every tool costs like a luxury car. I know of some kickstarter projects just for making pieces of plastic. So if you estimate only hundreds of units will be sold, you have to charge high price. Analog synths are luxury goods, nobody really need them for professional music making. So the estimated production volumes are very low.

The Eurorack situation is very simple: economies of scale. Tiptop isn't selling 50,000 of these, so their fixed costs are very high. This is a problem across the board for Eurorack. Lots of small makers with high fixed costs.

As others have commented, you need to consider economies of scale. Synthesizers are a small market, with a small production volume, and little to no opportunities to leverage the lower prices which come with production at scale. You also need to consider the cost of doing business. There is far more to the price of a consumer product than the cost to manufacture. They need to budget for employee salaries, sick leave, retirement plans, health insurance, taxes, rent, marketing budget, technical support, and any number of other expenses, not to mention profit margins. I'm certain that Moog and Sequential both believe they are pricing their products fairly at a rate which yields a sustainable business while treating their employees fairly. Whether the synth-buying public feels that provides sufficient value for money is a different question altogether.

IKO Case makes some nice wooden briefcase racks with buckles and everything. I own 3. Also, I prefer the sliding nuts (The rounded square kind), as it is easier to slide and rearrange your modules and fit modules that may have odd spacing on the screw holes into a tight spot. Great video and commentary!

Great video. Very helpful. Thank you.

Great video as always. In the realm of analog Polly's, I think people are going to complain a lot more when it gets over 3000$, regardless of it's capabilities. Partly because it starts becoming inaccessible to them. Totally agree on needing more completion, the only other recent synth I could think of was the UDO Super 6 and the Arturia Poly Brute, which I find was reasonably priced.

Good video Tim, the bit that really annoys me is the price of things like cases keyboard stands...... the things that don’t make your music sound any better. £300 quid for a stand can get a good monosynth for that.

if that rack was in a different business, for instance if it actually was for mounting plants and the circuit boards were for driving lights or something and it was sold in a garden shop, it would go for 25 £ or so

Have you seen the "hyper" audience comments on some of the new P5 demos? You are spot on with this book reading, I think. By the way, Synthpunk brought me to your excellent channel. I love that vector synthesis thing you have just made, that is just such great use of limited resources.

I do believe you get what you pay for mostly. I got a great deal on my Moog One 8 voice and I was still on the fence about buying it mostly because it's the most I have ever spend on a single piece of gear. However I've owned a lot of synths in my life, thew vintage synths that could compete with a Moog One at at minimum $10k or more for a vintage synth that is 40 years old and will likely require regular maintenance that comes at an added inflated cost. I don't regret spending the money I spent on my Moog One and I would take it over a DSI synth any day.

Visuals are killer. Feels like I'm watching a movie. Appreciate your insights too. Cheers!

Thanks Tim. Enlightning video..

Lovely video. Very thoughtful. One thought I had regarding the decrease in price of manufacturing technology. As phones and PCs got better, smaller faster the manufacturing process and components have changed. My feeling is the same hasn't happened with analogue synths because it's those vintage components put together in a workshop (rather than a big factory) which enthusiasts are after. The closer a current/recreation/clone can get to the original components avoiding mass production techniques, the closer it should theoretically be to the vintage version, and therefore more revered. I heard (but may be wrong) that in the last 2-3 years Erebus expanded and went from hand-made through hole technology to mass produced surface mount products which I hear (big dislcaimer) is cheaper to produce. However, there was speculation at the time that the Dreadbox v2 (their last hand made thru-hole synth) may be coveted more than the newer SMT v3. I don't know if this is completely true, but worth considering. Afterall Behringer are creating synths at a very low price, but while the components used may be similar or modern day equivalent, the production methods are very different. Bit of an essay, sorry.

Good videos. Many interesting observations.

Thanks Tim, for a great perspective! I want to state that I don't own a Moog One - and although I am sure it is a great synth, the tuning issues coupled with the price keep me from ever entertaining the idea of buying one. I laughed out loud, literally, when I saw the Moog One introduced at @ $9K for the 16 voice. Analog technology, which after almost 60 years Moog still can't seem to tame in terms of tuning issues, and basically a one-trick pony - subtractive synthesis, dressed up with digital controls and effects. That is a LOT of money to spend on a synth, especially a synth that doesn't really break a whole lot of new ground sonically. If you have a niche need for a monster analog synth that, when stable, peels paint off the walls, then fine. But for me, it just doesn't seem like the price, while probably justified parts-wise and R&D-wise, is really something I'd want to pay for a synth that is still using (and still battling within itself) tech that is very old and not prone to staying in tune. The other big player in the rehashed analog space right now is DSI, and given the Prophet 5 history and such, there will always be a market for those synths, and the price has always been premium. My biggest problem with DSI synths is that I don't like the way they sound, but that's just my personal bias and nothing more. It seems that Oberheim is now going to get back into the analog game with Tom leading the charge, and personally if I'm going analog poly, that's where I'll put my money. I can't wait to see what they come up with, although the OB-6 didn't feel/sound to me like the old Oberheims - more like a DSI synth, and so I hope the new ones coming out of Tom's new company will be more like the old OB-8 or the 2, 4, or 8 voice synths. Fun time to be older and able to afford some of what I couldn't back when I was 18 and lusted after all of this stuff!

Interesting topic. I, like many others, reacted to the price of the Moog one with a feeling that it's quite expensive. Yet, when I looked at the Prophet 5/10 it doesn't seem as unreasonable. But when you put it into the perspective of oscillators that was pretty interesting, since it reveals that the Moog is cheaper using that consideration. Of course, people don't think about these instruments that way, unless they're comparing something from the same manufactorer. So they might make such a comparison about 2 different Prophets, but not a Moog and a Prophet. For me, the Moog one is too expensive simply because it IS too expensive (for me). But I do love it, and if it were willing to pay that much for the prophet I would be willing to save longer and buy the moog instead as I really love the sound (but they're both out of my price range). Where synth are concerned, these 2 models are comparable with motorcycles (here in the states). There are people who show up to Sturgus on their motorcycles, and they've got all sorts of great features that make them incredibly enjoyable for a long ride. And there are also people who show up on motorcycles that may or may not have all the features, but they're Harleys. These 2 models are the Harleys of synths.

This was extremely insightful. In the end a light bulb went off and all I could this was, "Behringer!" I mean I still don't want one, but I definitely get it. lol

Superb analysis.

Très très instructif, merci pour la vidéo.

Plastic parts can be really expensive to make if the production volume is low. Injection moulds for parts that you have shown can be anywhere from 30k usd to 50k usd. After that it might cost 1$ of plastic for each parts you make. So if you make 1000 cases like that per year and you expect to keep the same model for 2 years it mean that your cost will be between 16$ and 26$ per parts. If your volume is 100k units per year, you get a massive economy of scale because the moulds cost is spread over more units so in that case it’s 1.25$ instead of 26$

You should read children’s stories as a side gig!

Great - Thank you for your Thoughts

I saw the price of the Moog One and smiled at the thought of people willing to pay the price of a car. People pay to chase ghosts; buying what they couldn't afford back in the day be it a Prophet 5 that they lusted after on TOTP or whatever. I'm so grateful for Arturia's VSTs and Berhinger's desktop homages / rip-offs / whatever. My first synth was a Prodigy which I bought in 1980. I went back to the shop about four years later as a skint student and saw a Moog Source, A Liberation and a dead Polymoog. The guy offered me the Source for £100 which I didn't really have. I often think about that, but never consider shelling out the current asking price. That's my ghost.

The realization Tim comes to by the end of the video reminds me of the end to "The Truman Show". It's like he broke the 4th wall and went into another world.

what about the minilougue regular? that one is analogue

Interesting video as usual. Difficult to compare some items but think you made some fair assessments. Have to admit it has crossed my mind that i should sell all the bits of kit that I've collected over several years, don't use, and get a Moog one...... With regards to Eurorack whether it be cases or modules its a very expensive area of synthesis when the bug bites..... which whilst it will never make a Moog look good value for money at £8K unfortunately doesn't really make it look expensive either. Ultimately its all down to economies of scale and number of sales. That said, some synth names always carry a premium.

this video is a satisfying watch, thanks Tim!

This video is timeless

Great video, missed this one, thank's to behringer to share it, absolutly facts, you say the truth. “Competition is a really healthy thing. We need as as much competition as possible in the synth market. We really should be encouraging manufacturers to start making affordable synths. It’s the only way to ensure people get good value for money”. I absolutly say same to friends, and is why i encourage behringer for that. Becose this way hardware going to totaly disapears one day, in our generation younger peoples learn how to instal crack plugins, make music totaly without to invest 1 cents (except the computer), lots of peoples will like to buy some hardware synth but they can't afford it to becose they are to expensiv, just look at the new Prophet 5 3.5k€ Prophet 10 4.3k€ you got no FX no stereo out for a high price, maybe a quality build, great looking synth, authentique like the original, but that can't be afford by an etudiant, someone who have small kids etc, becose i speak with peoples like that is not a exemple is real! But now behringers make affordable analog synth, i speak more and more with young peoples interested about hardware synth and that's great. Im realy impatient to see the new Polyphonic analog synth from behringer, becose they are the most wanted type of synth that will make maybe hardware synth back into the game, 80's music is come to be new tendance with modern artist, The Weeknd, Lady Gaga etc... I think peoples will realy enjoy if they keep the price low, and the hype behind all that new stuff at a affordable price going to make others guy's thinking why not to try even if before they are not realy interested by hardware synth. I hope my english will be understood is not my native langage. Great talking im going to share that 💯🤝

Great Video, thanks!

Good video Tim and I share some of your thoughts. Something like the Mantis case (which I have, for my first system) does seem rather expensive to put it nicely. Now.... like you I have to confess complete ignorance as to what it actually costs to make these things, so I have no idea what the profit markup is. I do know one thing though: Economy of scale is everything. There's an awfully big difference in the manufacturing cost of something, whether you are making 200 at a time, or 20000. The difference is riduculous, and it is among other things because the price of making an industrial product is not very much in the materials (the plastic case) it's in the tooling, the quality control, the R&D, the testing, etc. etc. Some of which are one-time costs that comes into the price of making it. On top of that, most Eurorack companies are quite small outfits compared to something like Roland, and again they have to pay a lot of one-time costs to make a product. So I believe this might be the most important factor in comparisons between mass market items and boutique items. If you just look at the materials price then yes, it's pretty ridiculous, but if you start to factor in all the costs of making the thing, then maybe, just maybe there's a good explanation for where all that money goes. But again, hey, I don't actually know, I just haven't heard of very many Eurorack billionaires or millionaires for that matter. But they might be out there, hope someone can enlighten me. At any rate, all the things you're saying Tim are very reasonable considerations, and I have no problems with them, they're important ones and it's a debate that comes up at very regular intervals, understandably.

In the meantime Behringer continues to kick the legs out from under the industry in terms of pricing. With regard to “economies of scale” I worked for many years in IT. And there are few pieces of electronic gear that have been deployed in larger numbers than network switches, routers, servers, and similar equipment. Yet the prices on some of the premier name brands still remains quite high. When clients used to ask me why everything had to be so expensive, I had to fight down the urge to tell them the simple truth: It doesn’t have to be this expensive - it just is.

I want to point out that one can't just use inflation calculator to approximate what the value of something from the 80's would be today... you need also to adjust it according to mean income at the time. Back in the 80's people made less money as well. So let's imagine for arguments sake that something cost 1000$ in the 80's and peoples median income was let's say 1000$/month... if that price would be 4000$ in today's money, but we have median income of let's say 2500$/month: it gives one much better picture of what things really cost back in the day. I'm not disagreeing with you as such, just wanted to point this out :)

Good video but it's important not to focus exclusively on material costs (the hangup which means people think software and music should be free because a download appears to have no material cost). For niche products there's a living that has to be made from small sales (or at least enough income to maintain enthusiasm for the hassles of designing, manufacturing, and supporting a product). Eurorack versus Behringer is a good comparison. Uli knows he can sell synths in the thousands underwritten by his bread-and-butter products. That means he can use his "cost plus" pricing policy. In contrast, a good selling Eurorack product is only going to sell in the hundreds at best. The power supplies are probably the least fair product to choose to discuss pricing because they are the only true commodity product in that entire field because all racks need them regardless of whether the rack is commercial or DIY and regardless of the modules going in the rack. The material costs of plastic items are low but the tooling and development costs have to be spread across the production run. With small runs, the material costs are almost negligible in comparison to the other costs. That's what the customer is buying. It's only with massive production runs where development and tooling costs start to become negligible. Incidentally the closest I have to modular is a Neutron and currently I have no plans to buy modular products.

Why hasn't somebody made a PC PSU-to-Eurorack converter... thing? Also that plastic case genuinely looks like a repurposed toolcase..

It's such an interesting and subjective discussion is value for money. I think that if you keep and use a synth for many years and it still works and gives a great experience, the purchase cost becomes irrelevant and therefore the value grows exponentially. Yes- you have to have the cash to buy the synth in the first place (or access to the credit), but the length of service becomes a factor. If you buy a cheap synth that costs under £300 that you don't really use, then that is poor value for money compaired to a £2000 synth you get loads of joy from- playing and programming. I do think some brands charge for the name in any instrument market- I liken Moogs to Gibson guitars. You are paying a premium for the brand and heritage. However, they are made in the US (or at least assembled there in Moog's case)- which is a more expensive place to manufacture than China, Korea or Singapore, fore example. Either way, if you get a Moog One, really click with it and get years of joy and use from it, then it's earned its cost. If you make money from using it, this dynamic changes. So many variables!

I don't think the lack of competition is the main issue for high prices. There is probably a good reason why no other manufacturer is jumping on the bandwagon, undercutting these $50 wobbly plastic cases. In open markets, lack of competition is usually the result of low volumes. And low volume is what widens the gap between marginal and total unit cost. In contrast, Behringer is leveraging synergies from manufacturing components in large quantities that are used throughout the whole audio spectrum, thereby narrowing that gap. After all, a synth is mainly components cladded together, and only a few of those components are used for synths exclusively. And the result speaks for itself. A Deepmind costs about 10 to 20 times less inflation adjusted than a synth with vaguely similar capabilities in the 80s. This kind of depreciation is anything but insignificant.

I think a lot of people are fooled by Behringer - they make a copy of this case and sell it for $35 less. It is still $300 for a piece of plastic with a power supply. Their mono clones are all around $320. For $344 you can get a Korg Monologue that also has an added keyboard and sequencer. I don't understand the disconnect. The only exception I can think of is the Deepmind, which is quite a good value for the money.

Totally appreciate your thoughts: The Industrie obviously takes advantage of trends, hypes and demand of us consumers who drive the price. Personally I associate plastic with cheap, minor quality things and I usually don’t like it. I addition plastic really is monumental to representing today’s throwaway culture. As such, I love the reissue of the P5, made of solid wood and metal, living up to the original design and spirit of Dave’s legendary company. For me personally though, it does not represent enough value for the price Sequential is asking. I initially fell for the hype and ordered a P10, to shortly after ask myself the very same questions you are sharing here. This made me cancel my order. On the other hand, all these relatively cheap clones and reissues (made by other companies) somewhat destroy the nimbus of their vintage counterparts. It’s a bit of a dilemma, while I appreciate that I can buy and enjoy recreations of ultra rare, traditionally unaffordable and highly desirable instruments, all the sensation, nostalgic feelings and dreams about such an original seem to be gone.

Great topic and great video.

I’ll bid 4 cents on the plastic lid (Shipping included) On the Mantis, I’ll go ALL IN! $21.50 is my bid, open-ended offer!

Really interesting video. The Prophet 10 oscillators aren't that much more expensive than the Moog One 16 voice. The P5 really needs to be compared with the 8 voice Moog One. It's not a huge difference. Per voice, they are pretty similar really but then the spec of the M1 is huge compared to the new old Prophets. I would love any of them but really way out of my price range.

how much are feelings worth? how much are minds worth? what is pricing worth? what is valuing worth?

Don't forget the Roland JD-Xi which is multitimbral synth with tiny keys, with analog and digital with drum kits. I had the Moog Grandmother for a while, and loved it. But at the end if the day, I just want a synth with multi-timbral capabilities, the ability to tweak the sounds, and a playability factor. Eurorack/modular is fun, but I want to play songs via keyboard. Love Moog, but it is analog for the most part, (couldn't afford the Moog One, maybe the Matriarch, but not sure if it would be enough for me, because, I want more sounds from other synthesizer engines. (Love the Korg OP Six for its FM and Wavestate for its stacking of sounds, but keyboard is not big enough and I wonder if the Wavestate can do an actual song by itself. I had a Teenage Engineering OP-1, loved there size, the build. hated the speaker, the sounds were okay, but not enough for me to keep it. Great to start a sketch of a song, and but I want to play one synth and have many synth engines in it, without it being so dang confusing. Back in the 1980s I had the Juno 106, and the Roland D-50. Loved the D-50, but actually the Korg 01W/FD was more playable. I've read up on Nord, but on this side of the pond in USA, not too many in stores, where I live to try one. I am looking for one synth with a good keyboard like a Kurzweil, analog like a Moog, easy to tweak and be able to write a songs on it like Vangelis does in real time, but not so expensive or advanced. Yeah, I know. Nothing is out there besides maybe the Fairlight or Waldorf Quantum, or that fancy rig built in Europe I forgot the name of that is made by this one guy for thousand of dollars. I think this is why people just use the computer with a Arturia keyboard and buy VST sounds. But, I hate using the computer and hate computer music programs. I like to layer within the synth to create a song. I get so utterly confused by music programs as I am old school and had a Tuscan 4 track tape recording and a mixer. (The OP-1 has the digital tale which I loved, but younger people seem to hate. I grew up with old school gear that you had to play, nit compute. ) Anyway, that's my rant.

Totally agree. Maybe because Eurorack is ‘fashionable’ these days, people will pay stupid prices for tacky pieces of plastic like that case. I have a couple of Dave Smith synths but won’t be parting with 3 to 4 thousand for the Prophet 5 or 10, the new Arturia Poly feels like much better value to me. Another thought provoking video thanks for doing this.... there are far too many people doing reviews and synth videos who won’t speak their minds because they’re either being sponsored or getting free gear from the manufacturer

The initial tooling and moulds for the TipTop case would cost many £thousands. They have to bake that into the cost along with expected sales. But yeah, it's expensive!

Loved this video Tim... tho I did panic when you were watering over electronics LOL. I remember my dad saying somethings worth is what someone is willing to pay for it. A red painted toilet because Warhol painted it. Worth it? Laughable. Did someone buy it? Yes. Just another factor in your "is it with it" analysis. Enjoyed.

I'm impressed how the question of quantity is completely overlooked. Yes pastic is cheap, but moulding is not. The smallest piece of plastic require an investment of minimum 15000, and 2cents of plastic per pieces, so the price depends of quantity. You want to check value for money of a synth? Add how many they make Inthe equation. This is why computer price have drop down and synth has not, and why eurorack is expansive. What we need is not more competition but more users

I spoke to Decksaver about making some products for synths they don’t do yet, they said that creating the mould piece is an expensive procedure so they only do synths they think they’ll sell a lot of them for.

All I know is I used to work for a studio. That studio could get Alesis trade and Quad amps for some reason. The mark up was 50 and 100%, if I remember rightly. The traders make an awful lot of money. But then again you're not allowed to sell them cheaper.

"plastic" LOL; really enjoying your channel. Really has gotten me into modular. good stuff

Aren't there more analog Polys around? The Baloran River, Arturia Polybrute, The Schmidt, mfb Pro Synth (no keyboard, ok). I don't think one would do justice to reduce the value just to the sum of the parts (e.g. amount of VCOs). There are so many factors which influence the price and 'value'. R&D, firmware, build quality, quality control, scale of production, country of assembly, etc. A comparison to cars comes to mind. You can buy a cheap one for 7000 € or a super custom one for +70.000 €. Both will drive you from A to B.

To be fair manufacturers must amortize the cost of R&D across the anticipated production run so even the polycarbonate cover likely has a pretty substantial initial tooling cost that must amortized across a likely relatively small production run. But there are clear wide deltas in price. I would argue my Novation Summit at a quarter the price of a Moog One is a wonderful polysynth but its a digital/analog hybrid and therefore might not appeal to those looking for that 100% analog sound. Let’s face it in blind tests most cannot tell the difference between a VST and the real thing. But those of us that prefer HW like the tactile feel. My day job is spent staring at a Computer Screen, I don’t want to it in my studio also.

You are such a down to earth, calm, cool guy...

Jevon’s Paradox is at play, as many other viewers pointed out. Supply and demand, the often forgotten (by consumers) fixed costs of R&D, product designing, development, manufacturing setup for tooling, supply chain for distribution, etc, etc needs to be recovered in order for a company to turn a profit on a particular product. More products sold means those fixed costs amortise/divide out across a larger base of products, add to that similar economy of scale impacts of selling more product on materials and per unit variable costs and that all adds up to a lower per product cost to manufacture and sell - hence companies like Roland, Yamaha and even more so Beheringer have much more leeway to either manufacture and sell at a lower cost than smaller companies or chose to make more profit per unit. But that’s a generalisation and there are ways to compete on price even if you are a boutique manufacturer. - let’s also not forget that there is still human labour involved and unless you’re based somewhere still in the dark ages (no minimum wage) the people involved still need to be paid - you’re not just paying for a “cheap” piece of plastic.

Great content Tim

Some interesting thoughts. Having worked in various sales industries in my youth, I have a few thoughts to throw in to the conversation. 1. The costs involved in design / manufacturing / shipping / sales / after sales / advertising etc, are more complex than many imagine. These are all compounded by economies of scale / economic politics / market fluctuations / cost of quality control / language and communication barriers etc. Trust me when I say that the initial perceived large profit margin can be gone in the blink of eye if circumstances do not go as planned. 2. There is sometimes or maybe even often, invisible or long term costs that we fail to see or purposefully ignore - the cost of the ‘working slave trade’ / the cost of shady politics / the cost to the world power balance or imbalance / the cost to people’s freedoms. Yes, people may scoff, but with the rise of China on the back of stolen ideas / poor working conditions and western market reliance, there may indeed be some eventual long term costs for our cheap goods! 3. The value for money is so subjective due to an individual’s circumstances and perception that making a general estimation across groups becomes almost irrelevant. In the end the market tends to decide through the market forces that we find ourselves in. The measurement of value becomes something best left to the individual themselves and the desire for ever cheaper goods, is probably best served with a warning caveat for those that want their grand kids to have as great a life as we have had. A few of my thoughts to be taken with a pinch of salt and bucket load of musical complexity.

The Schmidt synth is a rare beast at around £20K and the Buchla Skylab around £14,800 ouch !

The other thing you need to look at when trying to access why manufacturers charge what they do is (especially in the case of something as complex as the Moog One) is the R&D cost. It had to have been the labor of years for multiple people to bring something like the Moog One to market. And the other thing is, how many units are they actually going to sell? Boutique products like Eurorack modules generally sell very few units. There aren't a lot of these manufacturers making huge profits off their gear. Small runs of complex products are inevitably going to cost more than mass-manufactured products the likes of which Behringer produces. I'm not saying one is better than the other but the economics of both business models are vastly different.

How about the Schmidt 8 voice analogue synth for 16-20 grand? Or the CMS 2607 monophonic Arp clone for $7500? To me, the value is in the range and quality of sound production (and of course, the user interface).

Milling the mould for this pievce of plastic is expensive in the beginning. cnc model making is a on&off job, the machine is standing still. the rest, i dont know, i guess depends on the scope of an order + how accurate q/c will be.

Hola son tan buenos sus videos podría incluir subtitulos en español

Computers or mobile phones are sold in insane quantities. The the R&D cost of a synth needs to be payed off by much smaller quantity. Also, most companies won't price their mid to high priced synths very competitively. Also, they price it accordingly to what a synth player expects a quality synth to cost.

Imo Dave Smith/Sequential synths are the best out there now. Other options are Novation Summit, now Arturia Polybrute, Korg Prologue. There are great digital and VA options like Roland System 8, Jup-X, UDO Super-6, Nord Lead too. Imo Behringer haven’t brought anything good to the table yet but also their quality has been sub par - and I’ve tested them (tested at least 6 of their synths on their own display). To this day I still wouldn’t go for Behringer. I’m glad there are multiple synth options nowadays though!

Tim are you going for the prophet 10 or 5? I’m going for the 10 for fear of voice stealing. I know it’s irrational but I gotta do it. I also played with the 5 v4 in person and wow! I’m on the waitlist in my local shop right now. Cheers for the good vids.

It’s interesting that the Behringer 140x2 case costs about £300. We all know they could sell it for much less if they wanted to but they priced it just below the other cases and made it a bit larger and unless we make our own cases and power supplies, it’s just what we have to pay. Eurorack is not cheap but it’s the best way to make a synth exactly how you want it and different from any other out there. A Minimoog is great but they are all about the same. And if you think about it, £300 isn’t that much when some 14HP single modules cost more than that. Multiply that by dozens of modules and you’ve got quite a lot invested in a small modular system. But to me it’s worth it for what it’s capable of.

I tend to think manufacturers simply want to live comfortably on our money.

I was lucky to buy a new Prophet 12 limited edition 2 years ago, while they were still available... best synth ever... :)

Thanks for your great video! I am a new subsciber. To a large extent it seems true that electronics cost way more to manufacture in the past. However, I still believe that there was a certain oligopolistic advantage in those days with only a few players making synths and abusing their power with their high price tags. For example the TB303. $500 canadian in 1986. that's $1500 in today's terms. Behringer sells a TB303 full analog clone today for $199. that would be $66 in 1986 compared to $500. That price is almost 90% less. I strongly believe that big legacy music corps were still trying to get away with predatory pricing today had it not been for Behringer disrupting the industry. I believe that without Behringer's entry into analog synths there would be no Korg Monologue/Minilogue in the $300 to $700 price ranges. And look at Roland. I have never been more disappointed in a company that I used to revere so much as a youth drooling over synths in the music store. Despite what musicians really want: reissues of their amazing sounding analog masterpieces: they "never look back" and in another sense that means the accountants are running the show there now instead of the sound engineers. When you look at their boutique line of "re-issues" which seems to me cheap plastic housings and controls bundled around standard dsp chips you can buy for cheap, they really seem to want to focus on software passing itself off as hardware so it can be replicated at no cost after initial development. And then they are selling you $50 worth of hardware for $499. They seem to have found a way to make a massive profit margin this time not on astronomical pricing but on a substandard product, and, they just leverage the brand names from the past making nothing like the real instrument they name it after. Good for them for sure. Not so good for us. and then, the virtual "rent a synth" plan they now have where you get to pay rent to use 2D pictures of vintage synths on your computer screen for a limited time...and they don't even need to provide any dsp chips this time because you are using your own computer ones. Well, again that is fantastic for them, but I will never see a physical jupiter 8 re-issue from Roland no matter how much I would want one. I am stuck between choosing to buy a used Jupiter 8, or to buy two fairly new motor vehicles. You see I am certain Roland KNOWS that a Jupiter 8 is not obsolete electronics like a 286 PC. They know it's a classic musical instrument like a Stradivarius. They just don't seem to like the margin$ a reissue would provide them compared to game console housings passing off as synths, or virtual synths you don't even own. So I really appreciate Uli at Behringer and what he is trying to do. He is trying to make the real instruments AND make them affordable for everybody because the big legacy music corporations simply will not. From what I have heard, his version of the TB303, the Mono-poly, the Odyssey, the Moog D, all sound fantastic. I cannot wait for his version of the OB and especially the "Juniper" 8...and you can be sure his margins are nowhere near what Roland "rent a synth" is but it seems to me he cares alot more about what keyboard musicians desire to have. In a documentary, it stated how he remembers the frustration when he was a kid and could not afford to buy a synth, and that is what is driving his direction now with his reissue versions. With that kind of a philosophy, he is more on our side than the big fat legacy corps every will be. And me, as a person who is after those wonderful sounds, and not really after just collecting synths for their name-sakes, I am thrilled that these extremely low cost versions that sound so close to the originals with real analog circuits are available to young musicians today, because if Uli wouldn't do it, no one would do it, that's for sure!

Curious how this would change if you included desktop modules

Great topic. Value is very personal. I base value on sound, interface, versatility, physical size and price. I cannot justify most or all synths north of the $2500 price tag. I apply the same rule of thumb to guitars and drums. I don't care about vintage and an expensive piece of kit does not make me a better musician. I need my instruments to work well in the studio and when playing live, so size, versatility and a simple interface are critical. I have a Novation Summit for example, satisfies all my needs and represents great value.

Spot on Tim. The hysteria surrounding the release of the reissue Prophets is another example of the memory being better than the reality. A MONO output synth in 2020? Really? Give me a Prophet 6 any day of the week. On another matter. I'm seriously considering the Moog One but I live in a very remote location and am worried that it might still be a tad underdeveloped and unreliable for my circumstances. Thoughts? Cheers, Eden

Prologue in same class as the Rev 2 no? XD is a beautiful instrument. Sounds incredible. Prices, even for the plastic dust covers, are likely based on the low volume of sales compared to retooling a production line. I don't know. Guessing. Driving down of prices is one thing, but I'm worried about we want more for less, and who ends up with the shit end of the stick there? Is it the small manufacturers? Is it the factory workers in the countries of manufacture? Maybe.

And that is why Behringer is wiping the floor with the lot of them, luckily for many of us or we’d be priced out (while they would still have the same measly sales they have - some of the prices are simply obscene) but in time they will either have to sink or swim (and get their stuff together).

A product is worth what people pay for it. Some people are happy to pay £300 for a pair of trainers or £10,000 a watch. They do the same job as a £20 pair or a £10 watch. As long as people are paying the money why drop the price. I know my eurorack case/modules are pricey but I paid anyway. Looking back I think I’d probably not do I again and certainly won’t be adding to my current modular rig, but I might add something like the Behringer Crave. Now that is good value compared to modules. As for Moog, it depends. I bought the Dfam and love it even though it was overpriced somewhat. I couldn’t see any competition for it. The Mother 32 however has much cheaper competition so you are paying for the name really. But that’s up to individuals to decide. On a different note, just found your channel Tim and am really enjoying it. Thank you for making the content in such a professional and informative way. I particularly like the fact that reviews/tutorials etc actually sound musical. Not the dreadful sound effect bleeps an buzzes presented by many others. Loo ward to future videos.

hi tim, you brought an interesting question up. i think i am close to you but with a small addition. i think it is a market, on the market they sell you mushrooms, you should not buy because they are sometimes overpriced or not good for your health at all.the synth market has high prices, some depend on the boutique production volume i think and some only on the potential price which a company can make with a product due to popularity of the product or idea.i think people who argue much about these maximum priced products can do the right thing with their vote, not to buy them at all. i thing the one price came not down because the manufacturer wanted to make less profit ;-) behringer which is a toxic name in the community try to reach for a bigger market with their products. they nearly copied the mantis. the stand there is i think a kind of metal. for 100 euros cheaper. the deck you have is i think if you construct and built only one extremly cheap with 50 usd. but if you produce 2 million units the production price should be under 5 usd. i think to have a choice between a lot of products is great, we should always remember, that we do not have and do not need to buy all these synths... today we can do a lot with just one of them. all the best!

These days, you can get on monthly payment plans if you want the top-shelf gear.