Would that still work if the epic challenger had fights first?

​@@percymacdonald6657I'm not sure if I follow, but I think no? No matter what, if you fight someone or shoot at someone with Precision, and you kill their character, during the REST of your unit's fighting/shooting your enemy's unit still has whatever buffs the Leader provided until your unit is done attacking entirely. So if I had a character that gave -1 to hit in melee, and I charged you, and you had Fights First and used Epic Challenger, and your character killed off my character with that effect, the effect is not gone yet. The rest of your unit now has to finish their attacks at -1 to hit because your attack activation has not ended, your character was part of the attack activation of your unit. All Epic Challenger does is give your character Precision, it does not create a new fight activation. AFTER your unit is done attacking, the buff fades, and the NEXT unit you use to attack their unit does not have to attack at -1 to hit.

​@@percymacdonald6657Fights First only works if every model in the unit has it. And all of the unit needs to fight at the same time. So it will not matter for any unit the character is attached to. But if you have several separate units and the first unit destroys the character. Then it helps.

That’s awesome the academy enrollment ends of Sunday or before all spaces have gone

The relevant line from the Core Rules (p 32): Note that after an enemy unit has fought and finished its Consolidation move (pg 35), it might be that previously ineligible units are now eligible - these units can then be selected to fight during the Remaining Combats step.

@@owlbear8293Yeah, badly worded from GW i think. RAW it works as seen in the video, but RAI i belive the Zerkers should have fought back.

Where is it written that pile-in requires a charge? I was also under the impression that charging units acquire fights first by charging. This puts them in the same activation pool.

He can't, Pile In moves are 3 inches and must end within 1 inch of the enemy or not move at all.

So it's just a "unclean" movement? I'm also very confused about this example of getting into combat. Or is within 1 inch equal to base contact?@@carlos_4

If within 4" I believe he could pile in because the 3" would put him withing engagement range (1") though not base to base. Since the dread is within engagement it would get to attack. Wouldn't look like how he moved the models but would still work. If greater than 4" then no pile in is how I understand pile in moves.

They don’t state that, they just make you base it it’s possible to base. There’s no restriction on the order you move models in

no, you attack first adn since you didnt charge them you can pile into say callidus and she doesnt fight first i believe.

I had the same thought. He looked visible.

If its the SM turn and they charge, then its your opponents turn to fight first. As that unit isnt in engagement range they dont activate. Then its the SM turn to activate their fights first units.... And then you know the rest.

ok se he's what I am wondering is the player who's turn it isn't unable to pile in despite them having fights first? is piling in only a player who's turn it is thing?@@MrAltF4

I agree. they always have fight first, it doesn't depend on them being in melee at the start of the fight phase. so they're always eligible to fight first as long as they're engaged. the world eater player has no interest in pulling out of melee with the dread unless it also pulls them out of pile in range from the bladeguards. the rest of the trick is nice though, and at least the dread doesn't eat a full unit activation...

​@@emmanuelauclair3886This is incorrect.

@@emmanuelauclair3886 the player whose turn it is selects the first "fights first" unit, as per designer's commentary (www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/OQ1TeUZ6hxw5jp1e.pdf) So the marine player would get one of his charging unit's attacks off before his opponent can activate his "fights first" unit...

Yes. No idea about the other comment lol

@@aaronnunavabizniz199 it might well be and if you feel like it I'd be interested in a explanation, to update my knowledge

Any unit that makes a charge is eligible to fight. Since they are eligible to fight, they can pile in.

Core rules p. 32 " a unit is eligible to fight if either or both of the following apply: ■ It is within Engagement Range of one or more enemy units. ■ It made a Charge move this turn." - in the video, the 'fights first' unit is not within engagement range and didn't charge, so at that moment it's not eligible to fight and can't be selected to do the pile-in.

@this is the exact clear explanation I was looking for as to why the last tactic worked. Thank you! The CSM do not meet the conditions to activate, so they are skipped, and the SM get to complete the entire activation to include the pile-in, and actually fighting because they meet the conditions to activate via having charged

I believe it has something to do with line of sight. I slightly remember that you could either only epic challenge or precision a character if it's in line of sight of your model, although I couldn't find anything in either the core rules nor the rules commentary. So it might be wrong. If someone has some info on that, I'd love to know more too!

Precision weapon allows you to allocate attacks to a character model you need to have visibility to. If you don’t have visibility to that enemy character model, you can’t allocate precision attacks to it.

Because you don't wipe the embarked unit this way, you just force them an Emergency Disembarkation test to disembark in 6", allowing the surviving models to go to the objective and outside the range of his 2nd unit to pile in. Allowing space for them to disembark close to your next Fight activable unit and outside the range of the objective gives you more chance of winning :)

There are 2 WE units there; the one the Redemptor charged and Tank Shocked is one, the one he piled in is the second.

To be eligible to fight you must be in engagement range. To pile in, you must be selected to fight. This is why the world eaters cannot be selected - they did not start the phase in engagement.

@@AngusMcIntyre thanks for this, I eventually found an answer to this. I now understand that when you are the charger you get the benefit of ending a pile in within engagement but if you haven't charged then you must already be within engagement to pile in. I have missed out on so many fights because my opponents' would just pull some of their first rows away and declare me out of combat 🤦

in the first example ? they charged. every unit that charged successfully is eligible to activate in the next fighting phase even if they're not in melee anymore. and they can pile in if that brings them into melee with an ennemy unit.

It was not the end of the fight phase, it was the end of the first unit fight action. Every unit when selected to fight can make a pile in move first.

thx for the explanations

Hey Daniel this is part of our academy course and we recommend our students have the rule book with them whilst completing the programme. Our course is to help a greater understanding of the implementation.

Yes, the owner of the killed models choose which die. Unless of course we're being [PRECISION]'d.

commenting so i get the answer to this

@@MrWollollo123 The answer is, after a lot of searching, fairly annoying (and entirely based around how fights first works). When a player selects a unit to fight (activates it), it always deals damage first. "Fights First" roughly plays out as: "The units controller may choose to activate this unit before others". Unlike other games (like MTG, which has "First Strike"), "Fights First" doesn't mean "Deals damage first", it just indicates this unit can be selected to activate before other units. The second part of this is how units are allowed to activate in the fight phase: "In both steps, a unit is eligible to fight if either or both of the following apply: ■ It is within Engagement Range of one or more enemy units. ■ It made a Charge move this turn. " So the defending unit, with fights first, isn't in engagement range, and didn't charge. The dreadnaught (attacker) DID charge, so is eligible to activate. So it activates, does a pile in, and this leaves it within engagement range of the defending unit. The activation continues and it kills some defending models. The then repeats with the second attacking players unit. The second bullet point should probably be removed, because the scenario of being out of engagement range and still succeeding a charge never happens naturally, and simply leads to rules-lawyering scenarios like the one in this video. That's bad for new players and makes running tournaments a nightmare for the small number of staff they likely have to resolve rules conflicts.

@Bizm4rk great explanation. Thanks a lot! this is a really good one for me. Appreciate it

First of all you seem to be confusing pile in and consolidation. Pile in is the first step a unit takes when it is its turn to fight. Consolidation is the last step after fighting has happened. Tank shock happens in the charge phase and is resolved as such. When you enter the fight phase, you start with fights first units, specifically those belonging to the player whose turn it is not, I.e. the berserkers. Berserkers did not charge, and are not in engagement range when it comes around to their turn to activate, therefore they cannot activate. Next the charging units activate with their fights first, piling in and fighting. Berserkers will get to activate after that if they survive.

These are two separate units, they both made charges. The first unit that destroyed the transport could consolidate towards the exited unit. The second unit is using "pile in" at the start of their fight. Although they are not in engagement range they are eligible to file as they made a charge.

So pile in's can effectively happened after fighting has started is fight your saying.@@Horsenabout

@@connorb5519 pile in is the first action a unit that has been chosen to fight can take.

But in this situation this unit pile in after another unit died why didn't they just pile in when the other unit piled in that made the charge?@@Horsenabout

@@connorb5519 because each unit completes its fight phase separately. The pile in action isn't simultaneous for all units.

You cannot fight twice in a turn. If you consolidate into another unit, they will be able to fight you. But they wont have the benefit of charge and next turn you will be able to fight before them.

When disembarking for whatever reason, you have to be setup outside engagement range. So no, they can't attack your Mally after you blow up their boat

I wondered about this too...

Pretty much any tournament will run with rules that all ground floors of ruins block line of sight.

@@whodovoodoowedo ah, yes, fair point - they should probably clarify that this is based on tournament rules/ play, and not the core rules

@@amimmortal77Thats probably implied by the fact that this is a free Academy lesson which is intended to teach tournament level play.

@@whodovoodoowedo no, i don't agree. This is about teaching the game and giving players the tools they need to compete. Newcomers won't get the difference in certain rules in tournament play versus normal matched play. We're not all mind readers...

Believe they do a desperate break out

@@philgagnon275 ah thanks mate I thought that would be the case 👍

No

It works providing you have line of sight to the character

@VanguardTactics and... I'm guessing this is because most tournaments run their ground floors as solid walls with no visibility. Buy club terrain has windows and doors. So assuming your within an inch and it has windows, can fight. But in this video. Walls are solid.

@@JuneauEu yeah you got it mate

When you disembark you gotta be within 3" of the transport and not within engagement of any unit. 8bound already fought so they couldn't move back into the vets

@jonathanperkins8961 Yeah, but the bladeguard are still pretty close to the eightbound. Whether they already fought or not doesn't change their engagement range.

Why do you think these aspects are gamey? Have you considered that they may be part of the game to balance shooting and combat?

@@VanguardTacticsdon't get me wrong I don't begrudge a competitive player gaining an advantage where they can. However, I just can't help feel these interactions aren't in the spirit of the game, they have a distinct "well actually" vibe about them. If these powerful effects are intentional they have been written in such a way that they are obfuscated to most players

@@dialupsyndrome1910 having some element of synergy and importance or order to decisions along with positioning allows players to improve at the game. Otherwise we will end up with a game where everyone has the most efficient pointed list and rolls better on the day. Having nuance is the reason I enjoy the game so much. Otherwise I’d be pushing models around without much purpose.

Though I agree with what you are saying and I want there to be healthy gap between skill ceiling and floor. I honestly feel like some of these techniques, for example getting around fights first does not seem intended to me. Maybe my perception is biased as a software developer but the interactions seem to be pushing the system to gain an unintentional advantage.

@@dialupsyndrome1910 fight first is one of the strongest rules in the game which is why Custodes are exceptional strong atm so having some counter play for those weaker units that only specialise in combat gives them some counter play. But there are some instances where the rules can get a bit strange like firing from an spike on the model around a corner, or having a gun barrel hang off the edge of the board but still able to draw line of sight over dead space.

This is not true, the way it is done in the video is correct (unless I am looking at out of date rules). The fight phase is split into two steps, "Fights first" and then "Remaining combats". The "Fights first" step has all units that are eligible to fight with either the fights first ability or a charge bonus. Note that these units must still be eligible at the start of the "Fights first" step, as explained in the next paragraphs. The "Remaining combats" includes all remaining units that are eligible to fight (i.e. that didn't fight in the "Fights first" step). Note the following extracts from the Rules, and, This specifically states that units with fights first needed to be eligible at the start of the fight phase to be chosen in the "Fights first" step. Or, put another way, even if you have fights first, if you only become eligible to fight during the fight phase (so you didn't start as an eligible unit) then you can only be chosen to fight in the "Remaining combats" step.

@@Nickersonbm you are right I apologize for my comment. This does bring me to an annoyance with the rules writing. It would have been so easy to put wording into the fights first ability for this exception. Meanwhile they word fights first and the fights first phase to not reflect this nuance. It isn’t until you look at the remaining combats section that you find this meanwhile you are fairly certain you have all the information you need. Anyways thanks again for correcting me. I always seek to learn the game and play it as the rules want it to be played.

@@artemisquinn No worries, and no need to apologize. I actually went to the rules to go check this exact thing because I also thought you were correct initially and was scrolling comments to see if anyone said what I was thinking. Then when I saw your comment I went to double check the rules. I agree with you, I really dislike how rules are essentially spread out like this in their writing. If something like this happened to me in a game, it would have been a real feels bad moment, even though my opponent would have been technically correct, just because all the information isn't readily available in the rule.

Theoretical: one unit doesn't trade well against full transports. Practical: use 2 units