(PLEASE READ BEFORE WATCHING) Apologies for the volume jumpscare during the outro (starts at around 13:30). Won’t happen again. Please be wary headphone users.

I think the biggest thing holding heavies back is pretty ass recoveries. It means that despite their high durability on paper due to their weight, they don't actually always live that long.

Something I'd like to mention is that although Heavies are designed to be tanky and live long, due to a typically poor disadvantage state and generally bad recoveries they have a tendency to die earlier than a lot of the rest of the cast simply for getting comboed or hit off stage once

Problem is Sakurai likes to arbitrarily give them weaknesses, as well as adding character and whatnot that really renders the heavy’s weight useless, like Kazuya’s whole TOD being way easier on Heavies and making their one big strength not as useful while also making their weaknesses bigger.

I’ve always wondered why the devs insist on giving heavies bad recoveries. What’s the point of being heavy if you just get gimped at 30 like DK and Ganon do? The only heavies that don’t get regularly edgeguarded are Ridley and Bowser to a lesser extent.

I'm surprised there wasn't more discussion about why Bowser tends to be placed higher relative to the other heavies, and what we can learn from that about how to buff heavies in a balanced way. Speed is brought up a lot - Bowser outranks about 3/4 of the cast on the ground and in the air. Having a frame 6 OOS option that puts opponents in disadvantage shifts how he can play the game as well - it's a perfectly viable strategy not to strike first but bait your opponent to strike first in a way slightly unsafe on your shield. His powerful 6 frame command grab should also make opponents uncomfortable shielding when Bowser is approaching from the air. I think this versatility in gameplan really helps him excel where other heavies do not. Of course as a heavy he still has to deal with heavy combos, giant hurtboxes, and punishable recoveries, although his up b does offer more mixup than many people expect.

Ridley could deadass be a very solid heavyweight if they MADE HIM AN ACTUAL HEAVYWEIGHT. Ridley has pretty decent mobility, good normals and unlike the other heavies his damage isn't THAT insane, instead relying more on combos/pressure. He doesn't have quite the same "make 1 mistake and you're dead" style, he's more healthy in that way. But for some bizarre reason they decided to make him lighter than Samus despite having the biggest hitbox in the game, which means he gets all of the disadvantages of being a heavyweight with none of the upsides. It's so sad.

Htwo made a video about this topic 4 years ago, where he analyzed 2 heavies from Rivals of Aether, which has heavies that are actually viable, but not overpowered. In short, they have ways to overcome their weaknesses, but not remove them.

Most heavyweights should have good recoveries because what's the point of being heavier to live longer if you can get cheesed offstage at 20%. And I mean good as in distance, so still exploitable like Dedede's or K Rool's. The heavies in Rivals of Aether are well designed and proof that heavies can be good in platform fighters. They just need to be less extreme in high strength and low speed.

The biggest reason is because heavies would dominate casual play if they were any better. The game is balanced for beginners that don’t play optimally. However, as players make less and less mistakes speed and frame data gets more and more influential on the game because you get more opportunities to initiate advantage and evade disadvantage

If we look at Bowser and Incineroar, Bowser is good because he lacks some weaknesses that a lot of other superheavies have, and Incineroar is good because while he does have the traditional weaknesses of a superheavy, he has an amazing moveset and is rewarded for overcoming those weaknesses. Both of these characters set great building blocks for what a viable heavyweight should have, and if there is to be a high-tier or top-tier superheavy at some point in the lifespan of Smash as a series, it’s more than likely it would require both of these bases to be applied, unless you’re Brawl Dedede of course

Kazuya:are you sure about this?

One problem i have is how awful most heavy recoveries are. Why design them to live to higher percents if they die after they get blown downward by a beeeze more than once?

What's unfortunate is the fact that the Big Heavies usually CRUSH new players, casual players, and even mid-level players in a poor online environment. This leads to a comparatively large swath of the community loudly complaining to nerf them, and/or a hesitancy for the devs to make them as good as any other fighter since they'd be potentially alienating the largest part of their active player base

As MockRock said in his video, instead of giving heavyweights more power they could also be given much more range on their attacks to compensate for their poor mobility

I personally think it would be a fun idea to give heavy weights tons more shield damage. Like for example, even a slightly charged boswer/ganon fsmash could break a full shield. It gives them an interesting niche by wanting to actually attack shields, and makes landing their big goofy moves (like warlock punch) after they break shields a realistic win condition. Would it be OP? probably, especially in casual. Would it be fun to watch and play competitively? I would think so

The issue is that Plattform-Fighters are just bound to be more Movement-Centered, most heavies don”t have that movement. Make them quicker or give them interesting features that cover the lack of movement, like Rivals of Äther did. Etalus comes to mind first, she can freeze the ground and abuse the ice on the stage for her own good, get a armor out of the ice and has a REALLY good recovery

13:23 No idea if you ever plan to cover Rivals of Aether or even Project M/P+ but I think both games show how heavy weights are done right. They need tools that help with getting zoned and have good movement options. Outside of universal movement options like wave dashes, Bowser has a fireball projectile over flame breath that's charged over time, not instant. Ganondorf has both Float as a neutral B and down b that refreshes 1 jump when used (like in Melee) Ike has quick draw which stops all momentum when you press B again for the actual attack, otherwise not activating the quick draw attack will just give you a good boost of speed. Dedede has side B for projectiles and Down B gives Dedede burst of momentum. And DK is just nuts lol. Etalus from Rivals has his ice breath that id applied to the stage to help with his poor speed. They all still have the fundamental issues of heavy weights but are given the proper tools to compete.

Bowser is on the cusp of being good, quite fast speed despite their weight and with tough guy, he's almost there.

Pokémon’s speed stats DO affect how many actions they can take. If you’re KO’d, you cannot act. That’s why so much of VGC ended up being about speed control and why faster Pokémon are generally a LOT better than slow Pokémon. This isn’t just the case for offensive Pokémon: GSC Raikou is an effective tank in part because of its incredible speed.

I feel like it would actually be very easy to make heavyweights viable and fair at top level. It just wouldn't be fun for casuals.

What about buffing heavyweights shield? Perhaps shield durability can correlate to weight.

Bowser is ALMOST the perfect heavyweight. He does hard damage, has big attacks, is fast, has minor armor on absolutely everything alongside invincibility on certain body parts during certain attacks. He just needs a better recovery imo. The thing that balances it is he has no real combo game. He’s a rushdown fighter who lands stray hits whenever he finds an opening, but those hits are so strong that the opponent is bound to grant said opening at any time. And, while he is combo food, he shuts down certain combos purely through his tough guy armor, due to certain combo tools being WAY too weak to interrupt him. Just let his Up-B go higher and I think we have the first TRULY viable heavyweight in Smash.

The solution to the Heavyweight problem is by giving them moves that they can use in multiple situations, so that way they have the threat of coverage which each attack, a good example or this is Sephiroth up smash which has multiple uses

I feel like the term "heavy" should be a bit more specific. Most people use it to mean specifically superheavyweights. But there's plenty of other characters classified as heavy, like snake, Rob, and samus.

Kazuya is massively held back by the fact that whilst his moves have a lot of invinciblility, they're all extremely comittall.

One idea that comes to mind to make heavies stronger, but more balanced would be to give them states where they are more agile, but more vulnerable. Think of it as an inverse to super armor. Say a fighter throws out a strong and fast move but gets subject to more knock-back because of it. It’s short of like how heavier people in real life need more energy and concentration to pull off acrobatic moves. Gymnastics is easier when you’re shorter and lighter because you have less weight to manage and thus a lower risk of injury.

I think a funny character would be someone with Falcon's speed and Bowswr's tankiness, but with Shielk's attack power

imo i think heavys should have more armored moves, like dk and ganon punch, also they could have a shield that last longer and do more damage to enemy shields, but as you said, it's hard to balance them in a plataform figther like smash, otherwise we'd have more kazuia 2.0

id be interested if you talk about ways that heavyweights can be implemented well in smash and to work as well as other fighters without being overtuned

Man, remember when people said K. Rool was busted? Good times...

What if rage multipliers were determined by weight instead a flat value among all fighters?

Safety is the key to balancing most heavyweights. They tend to suffer in neutral, pressure, and disadvantage, but fixing their pressure game would be the best way to keep their identity without over-tuning them. Make 1 aerial and 1 or 2 tilts/jab completely safe on block, but they don't kill outright, limited combos, and no strong kill confirms. That way they can safely pressure opponents, but if they want to kill they need to use the higher risk/higher reward options they're known for.

As much as I love heavyweights and playing them, I don't think they should EVER be the best characters in the game. It's like in league when juggernauts were first added in and destroyed the pro league. Just having something that both kills you in a couple of hits and survives forever can be incredibly toxic to a game. For smash, I honestly think the issue isn't range, armor, or really anything like that. Its their survivability being rather lackluster at times due to poor recovery. Its something I feel every heavyweight suffers from and we see it with skyjay, leoN, and hikaru often in sets they lose. They get edgeguarded at 30% and die. The fact that the one strength they have can easily be turned into a weakness is what allows them to have such overwhelming kill power. Sure, incineroar, bowser, and k rool, and dedede have some mixups but they can only do so much to switch it up and dk and ganon just don't have many mixups in general. Also an idea I've heard was to give heavies a stronger shield. It would give them much more ease on shield pressure and wouldn't have to worry about shield poke all the time. It's nothing crazy but it was an interesting idea so I thought I should include it in.

Some heavyweights ARE good, though. Bowser's actually quite good in Ultimate, but outside of him, characters like Brawl Dedede, Snake (he's stupid heavy for some reason), Kazuya, Incineroar, Ultimate Samus and Wario are all very good characters.

That song you picked in the beginning is one of my favorite PMD tracks ever. I still have it in my phone to this day

The Bigger They Are, The Harder They Fall

I would argue that above mobility, offensive presence is one of the most critical components of *any* real time fighting meta No one plays incineroar, but he has been stepping through the ranks lately because players are beginning to wake up to his tools, something that couldn't be said about little Mac When your opponent has to look out for what kind of offense you bring, they are forced to put respect on your game on account of instinct The less you get to play your game, the more opportunities they have to play theirs. So in a sense it's not a measure of how you well move, but whether you have the upper hand This can be illustrated really well by Yujiro Hanma's matchup with Kaku Kiaoh. The infamous old man punch. This is a man that would take on any animal, but wouldn't come near that punch I'm trying to point out the core design that has held smash back in terms of roster viability. The meta in smash has always rewarded a certain style of play, despite boasting so many characters. And thus tiers are born You see, any game that was concerned about it's programming efficacy has always included characters variable play styles. This is because they want to expose the player to levels and skill. Sure, rote memorization plays a factor, but somewhere in the mind, the designers hoped that people would achieve that level of play Sakurai described this notion as "to burn". And if a game wants to be successful, it's got to include characters that are compelling. Street Fighter's Hakan was one of those characters. He was a big body, but they had given him oil so it became tricky to face off against his grappling style. And the reward for playing him was that you got to see the whole roster get trick shot by his oily finisher Smash doesn't seem to know how to make big characters the exception to the rule. If speed is the name of the game, then they ought to have mechanical ways to counter speed. Much in the way that high defense is the compliment to strong offense It's the Sun Tzu philosophy of "if my opponent is as the mountains, then I shall be like the sea" If there is a hit and run Sonic type, you don't fight him by matching his tempo. You punish with bait and traps. Don't be Bowser, be Steve. It's just unfortunate that Bowser ISNT designed to be more obstructive and they kept making him agile He could have been smashes Z-Broly if implemented well. But again, smash tries to make things cookie cutter across the iterations

- man who has never never played rivals of aether

"Why Heavyweights can never be good" Kazuya: i pretend i do not see

A small nitpick: In turn based RPG Speed is also vital. In the example you give, Pokemon, Speed is probably the most important stat of all, precisely because moving before the opponent means moving twice as much as them a lot of the time

superheavies are literally the most fun character to play as.

Good points, here's my perspective. I've watched a lot of superheavyweight matches at all different skill levels, and here's the thing - they need a little more juice. A few extra percent damage and knockback to make up for the difficulty in actually hitting a savvy opponent. A little more weight to live long enough to enjoy the benefits of near/full rage. A very small increase to frame data depending on the move. Each heavyweight needs something different, but these small tweaks can really give them the push they need to be competitive but not brain-dead easy. As it stands you lose the ability to generate an advantage state in neutral just to die in a blender ~25% later and kill ~20% sooner IF you can land your finisher. Way too skewed in the lightweights favor, and while you're right about risks in making heavies good, they're so bad right now that a gentle push would almost definitely be good for the game. Plus, heavies are just plain hype to watch imo 😂

As one of the few people who likes Stamina mode, it's unbelievable how EVEN MORE stacked against heavies the mode is.

The biggest obstaclesl to heavyweight viability is casual perception. Inexperienced players see characters like Ganon as overpowered when in reality he's the worst in the game. Sakurai nerfed King K Rool because of wifi complaints in the early days. Heavies will never be good because Sakurai values casual perception over anything else.

I love this video. I'm fascinated by the inherent advantages and disadvantages of archetypes. I know this is a Smash Bros. channel, but Rivals of Aether has some great workarounds for heavyweights that make them just as good as the rest of the cast. Mock Rock even talks about them in his video on heavyweights.

I love the Pokémon analogy here. Absolutely perfect!

You jumpscared me with barren valley. Very based mystery dungeon usage

This is very well put! I think heavy weights are super fun to play as and play against in Ultimate. Sakurai struck a good balance this time around with their power and advantages compared to other characters speed. But I agree that if they were any stronger than this they would be very frustrating to play against with quick characters that require precision. It would not feel fair with how much effort you have to put in with the fast characters.

I think the way to go is either give more range or increase the chance of hitting a follow up hit (ie. longer hitstun, more frame traps, or lower knockback for certain moves to set up a follow up hit) to account for the lack of mobility.

Never thought I’d hear the day someone calls KKR’s up air “fast” lol Good vid my guy 👍

Increasing a heavy weight's ability to break shields would balance them without having to make them faster. also. they could benefit from having 1 fast jab or tilt and 1 fast aerial.

Can you make a video on the links? They are pretty interesting to me.

I have two propositions for universal changes to heavies that could potentially make them more viable. 1.) Any character above the sandbag weight class could have decreased hitstun. This could grow with their weight, but idk. Just a small difference could be all they need to break a combo. If they're larger and heavier, I think it makes sense they'd flinch less from attacks. 2.) You could increase their early % knockback growth, and keep their late % knockback growth the same. This makes faster characters need to be more on point to combo them and not just be free combo food, but still keeps their survivability. Not 100% sure on how applicable this could be, but it's the best I could come up with.

Im kind of new to smash again (havent really played since Melee) and im learning the meta soowly. But one thing i have to remark on is how INTELLIGENT the people in this comment section are! Wow. The amount of knowledge you guys have is impressive. I have a lot to (re)learn!

I had to pause at around the 5:00 mark. Speed actually *is* possibly the most important stat in Pokemon, as it decides the order of who moves on each turn. If you have a higher speed and can take out the opposition or cause them to lose a turn, they never get it back, and you do get the turn advantage. False Swipe Gaming literally put out a video last week called "Why Speed... Might be Everything", continuing their series on stats, where the previous entries were on why having high stats elsewhere is not necessarily an important thing.

Not to be that guy, but the Pokémon example falls completely flat to anyone who understands competitive play in that game, speed is arguably one of the most important stats in that game as well and can matter even more than it does in Smash at times- Rhyperior as a specific example isn't usually considered good in the slightest outside of niche teams and ironically its explicitly because it's speed stat is so low (doesn't pair well with a double 4 x weakness- you usually get one shot before you can even attack)

Damn great video

What’s crazy is that even in Pokémon, a turn-based game, speed is still debatably the most important stat, far more so than the video makes it out to be. False Swipe Gaming has a video to that effect, literally stipulating that “speed…might just be everything” (Deoxys Theorem)

In pokemon speed often does grant you a way to avoid attacks all together. The pokemon that goes first can ko, cause flinch, or status an opponent before they get to move. Speed is one of the most important stats in pokemon. That's why in sun and moon smogon, steelix is in NU tier and pheromosa is in Uber.

I honestly think that rivals of aether already solved the problems of heavyweights ,giving them more movement options, but more commital ones

i like how speed actually is a factor that affects the amount of turns a pokemon has in legends arceus

You got one thing wrong. In Pokemon the speed stat is also very important and slower Pokemon don't necessarily get the same number of attacks for the reason that if you are KOd first you don't get an attack.

Greatly agree with Speed being the most important parameter in a real time setting. In turn based combat, Speed does decide who goes first, but the slower party does get a chance to strike back. My favorite example of Speed not feeling unfair thanks to Turn Based Mechanics would be the Myrmidon VS Knight in Fire Emblem. The former has fantastic speed and skill, the latter constituting critical strike chance, but generally low HP, damage, and especially durability. The Knight has comparatively higher health and base damage, solid accuracy for a slow class so they can hit even the fastest enemies reliably, and the main metric offsetting their horrendous speed is high Defense. In Fire Emblem, higher speed doesn't decide who goes first - it instead allows the faster unit to strike twice. Say if the Knight attacks first, they will only attack once, and they will tank two feeble blows (barring the Armorslayer weapon which counters armors).

Well, thanks for joining the group of people I'm working to disprove. There will always be a chosen few that dominate the higher tiers of play with "bad characters". Yes, worse than some on paper, in common practice, and in theory. However, there will always be a place in the meta for defying the meta itself.

Literally my 3 mains in the thumbnail

Bro you can't upload on all 3 channels at the same time. I have no idea where to start this is too much stress

On the weight vs size issue, being heavier is a buff as long as your size is proportional. Bowser gets combo’d more because he’s bigger, but his weight is so high he still lives much longer than Pikachu. Being bigger and heavier is a good thing for a character. Whenever you see top players talk about facing a heavy or you see commentators talk about heavy matches, they always exclaim how hard it is to kill them despite their hard they’re combo’d. As long as your not bigger than you are heavy (like Ridley for example) being a big boy is a buff. Being big is not what drags heavies down.

I think it could be interesting if heavy weights had some sort of buffer to make it harder for them to be combo'd like maybe there was a 'poise' feature where you won't get knocked back until it's it's broken and it needs to recharge before coming back. It's broken once a certain amount of damage is done within a window of time and when you're being damaged the recharge timer resets. So it'd be harder to start a combo on a heavy character but when you do it's business as usual. Of course it wouldn't be allot of damage, just enough to where you'd need to get a good heavy attack or like 3ish lighter ones. I mean, this is kind of treading into the same category as super armor but honestly it makes sense that a large character would be more resistant towards being knocked back, and it gives them just that little bit of extra wiggle room.

Nobody plays Wolf at top level anymore except of Jackal Charlie and Ouch Mid level maybe but not high or top level

Great video but I will say that your comparison to speed in Pokemon was pretty misplaced. Speed is arguably the single most important stat in Pokemon and there are dozens of Pokemon that are considered unviable just because they're slow (Rhyperior is great example ironically enough). I'd recommend watching FalseSwipeGaming's video called "Speed Might Be Everything" if you're curious about this.

Great video! It may interest you to know however that its been a long while since bulky tank mons have been the meta in competitive Pokemon. Fast Pokemon dominate the metagame in most formats for about exactly the same reason as fast characters do in Smash, if your pokemon is faster they act first, and if they KO the opponent or use a move with a chance of Flinching, Freezing, or Paralyzing them then the player with the tank will lose an entire turn. This is especially relevant in the premier competitive format VGC where a turn might just be a fifth of the match. The only exception is when the slower Pokemon are not built to be offensive IE walls, or they have something to compensate such as Dragon Dance or Regenerator. I think this is actually a good comparison with smash as well as heavyweight characters HAVE actually been viable before, if never cream of the crop. This is only true however when the characters were designed understanding that the weight class is a weakness of the character that had to be compensated for. P+ Bowser has a bunch of good tools and increased speed to compensate, Ultimate Bowser gets Tough Guy, Melee Ganon has very good aerials and decent speed, Melee Samus has good projectiles; screw attack; CC down smash; and goofy mobility options, Kazuya one shots you, Snake has traps and great kill confirms, Brawl Dedede has a consistent chaingrab and disjoints, etc. From a designer perspective I would posit what can be learned here is that durability is almost irrelevant to viability. Super armor is a great mechanic to help heavyweights feel better to play, but overusing it doesn't actually fix the issues that Heavyweights have in a competitive setting, but it does make the character less interactive and frustrates players. The strongest smash characters of all time are a fast faller which can be chaingrabbed or one tapped by multiple other viable characters in his game and a featherlight with no projectiles. What DOES make heavyweights more viable is options which can give them back control over the match through zoning or disjoints, volatile options which can reduce the number of neutral interactions they have to win, or alternative ways to get where they want to go that don't necessarily defeat the purpose of a strong and slow character being added to the game in the first place. Or at least those are my own thoughts.

Incineroar says otherwise... actually, he only says "Incineroar"... but still.

Let's be honest, would Kazuya even be high tier if he couldn't kill you off one interaction?

Whats funny about the comparison of speed to pokemon is that somewhat recently, a channel called "False Swipe Gaming" explained that even in pokemon, a turn based game. Speed can be absolutely crucial for some pokemon, and other Pokemon are screwed over by a LACK of speed.

Finally, some respect on my boy Sandbag.

A volatile archetype doesn't require a gigantic advantage. It requires a player who understands that volatility and is willing to work with the controlled risk for the chance for a big payout, like we've recently seen with Incineroar. A similar form can be seen at less competitive play. Bowser, for example, has immense threat and priority with his attacks. While a pro gamer will never make the mistake of trying to drift into the long, sustained forward smash from Bowser, it happens at lower echelons. Heavyweights can also be about committing to smaller, less rewarding payouts, such as Bowser's flame breath. At high play, this move has little followup and resets the neutral, giving very little in exchange for the advantage. But it also has very little vulnerability and shuts down 90 percent of counter-approaches. At the right distance, from full charge, it's virtually guaranteed damage unless your opponent sees it coming. The reason this isn't popular at ultra high play is, you don't want to give your opponent another chance at the neutral for such a small damage payout, so it's reserved for situations when, after the fire breath, your opponent will be stuck in a disadvantage.

the pokémon analogy doesn’t work too well since slow tanks can be killed in one hit aswell or can be flinched,paralyzed etc. aka speed is king unless you’re too tanky to be taken out instantly

Perhaps do a few trials splitting the weight class into 2 separate competitions.

Speed is actually the most important stat in Pokemon too lol

Personally... I think some heavyweights are only made heavyweight because they're _big._ Ridley, Dedede, and Charizard mainly are slower and more sluggish then they ever would be in their canon games, simply because they are _big._ Also have no clue why Ridley and Charizard (y'know... the dragons with WINGS) only have 2 jumps while Dedede has 4. Mewtwo is the only instance where he's not heavyweight for being big... instead he's lightweight which makes it worse on the _opposite_ side of the spectrum.

Honestly I think giving all heavies a universal reduction in hit stun would do wonders. If disadvantage is where they fall apart the hardest, make it easier and (not impossible) for them to get out of it. It wouldn't make them over powered as fast characters can still reset their combo, but they will have the added strained of their big combo target having more movement options, while also risking a heavy counter attack. Physics-wise, having less hit stun just makes sense too. Big fatty K Rool shouldn't be as physically effected as a tiny Pichu.

Spoilers for battle of bc: I'm back after poor Acola tried Donkey Kong in the grand finals. He got his occasional cheap kills vs Spargo, but Cloud's mobility just made that a bit of a hopeless attempt.

I hope they give heavies better recovery and maybe even more weight to just emphasis survivability even more. It should feel like fighting a raid boss.

I find the statement that heavyweights CAN'T be good or fast without breaking the game to be rather stupid considering the vast, vast majority of heavyweights have NEVER been considered top tier throughout Smash's entire history. And the one example listed of a top tier heavyweight, Kazuya, isn't a balance problem because "he hits fast while being heavy," he's a balance problem because he's one of the worst cases of DLC syndrome in the entire game who's been given an entire kitchen sink of powerful traits BEYOND weight. Acting like heavies hitting fast is the same as lightweights hitting hard is an AWFUL false equivalency. Heavyweights have far more limiting factors besides raw frame data like hitbox size, aerial maneuverability, mobility, combo routes, recovery, limited kill options...the list goes on and on and on. What's more, Rivals of Aether is CLEAR proof that heavies can be viable without choking out the roster or creating a volatility problem like this video claims. This whole video feels like it buys too much into the current status quo without even considering any alternatives or examples from other games. There's a HUGE fucking middle ground between "making heavyweights faster" and "give them Electric Wind God Fist, great recovery, fantastic frame data, tons of intangibility, an alternate mode gimmick, command grabs, a great projectile, AND a billion TOD routes" that this video pretends doesn't exist. Maybe try exploring that middle ground a bit?

I think the way to fix it is to look at disadvantage instead of advantage. Something between DI, hitstun, and fall speed can probably be tweaked to allow heavies to be able to play the game after getting hit without inherently taking it over completely. Maybe let them have stronger DI after a hit so that they can escape combos just a tiny bit earlier? Obviously fine-tuning that difference would take time and effort, but it could keep things competitive. Maybe allow them to suffer less hitstun from some attacks, letting them take defensive action earlier than most characters, or letting them be affected less by the same moves. For example, having a higher threshold for being sent into tumble. Since it’s so difficult to improve their offense without overtuning them, maybe they should be better defensively.

I'd highly recommend rivals of aether, a platform fighter with genuinely viable and balanced heavies

While I agree that it's much less stark even in RPGs like Pokemon speed is often considered one of, if not THE most important stat. The best defense is a good offense after all, and speed is the facilitator of offense even more tactical games.

Why wasn’t Ult Bowser brought as a good example of a viable heavy?

And then there is Ridley who has all the drawbacks of heavies (big hurtbox, bad disadvantage) without the weight.

Well done on this--perfectly describes why Melee Ganondorf was so good at the time Wavedashing and Lcancelling and Wavelanding was catching on. This game is sumo wrestling--heavies shouldn't be pushed off stage and combo'd once and a stock taken. In my opinion Heavies need only one big attack--the rest don't need the KO power that they currently have. It's ok to build a heavy so that it doesn't kill you until it lands that big attack. Its better that they survive and can compete and fight like Lucario with no aura. Gotta watch out for that big move though.

Im a king k-rool and king dedede main, both are good if you can land the right moves and make the right set ups, their recoverys are actually not bad, king dedede with his many jumps and good horizontal recovery (not adding in jumping moves his hurtbox back meaning you cant use jumps to slow your momentum when being launched to the side, and k-rool with his up air to help him get more vertical range so he can recover low, plus they both have really good comand grabs and projectiles (yes gordo is wack but when it works it works) plus king k-rools belly armor gives him that helping hand out of disadvantage, not only that but the power behind his devastating counter

small asterisk as a pokemon nerd: speed is in fact arguably the most important stat in competitive pokemon, because you will get more turns than your opponent if your opponent is dead, asleep, or frozen. thats why garchomp was so overpowering in gen 4 OU, because it had 102 base speed instead of 100, allowing it to outspeed much more pokemon

King dedede has a surprisingly good recovery that no one talks about if you dont get launched off the screen is doesnt matter where you are you can recover as long as you dont activate up b too early. Its only issue is that it can kill you cause of how big its end lag is.

I legit saw the thumbnail and got excited thinking I was about to vers a heavy online 😂

After 50% getting knocked off the stage is a death sentence for Gannon

Non heavies should all have their knock back further reduced against heavies. Increase the time required to ko a heavy and give more opportunity for human error. Otherwise light and fast will always be better

Fear is what heavyweights need. Ike was considered a heavyweight in Brawl. He didn't really have much in terms of combos (except the jab cancel ones) but each one of his hits had oomph to it and range. That to me is that they should be designed. Not like with Donkey Kong's B-air spam. Attacks with range and lag, either at the start or at the end. In short, good range options that force speedsters to enter a "danger zone" in order to apply their own pressure. That is what is done though, so what should be changed? Mobility options. Ike with Side B cancel gave him ways to quickly follow-up the opponent and add up the pressure, even if his speed is far from the best. That's what makes Bowser rank higher than most other heavyweights in Ultimate: his ground speed. By comparison, Ganondorf has down B which is extremely laggy and doesn't allow for follow-ups... except when that puts him off-stage, which is where you'll see it used. If Ganondorf had the ability to jump cancel out of his down B in neutral, he'd instantly become far more menacing as it would extend his "danger zone". As of right now, Ganondorf can be approached fairly safely and can be camped like crazy. And of course, not nerfing their recovery options would also be pretty great. Incineroar can act out of his side B, allowing him to vary his recovery and be more viable. So can Ridley in fact. Yet Ganondorf is sent into freefall... why? As we've found out, it's the variety of recovery options that actually makes a character good at recovering. Same with Donkey Kong. Some characters have projectiles instead of recovery options to secure a path. Lastly... not having 0-to-death combos in this game, or combos that become 50/50 on whether you die or not. Putting so much hitstun in this game was a mistake. Ultimate Salt is Real showcases just how dumb this can get. And when your heavyweight has to content with such combos... they stop being viable. A speedster will be able to secure a kill by winning ONE interaction, starting a combo at 30% while the heavyweight will have to win SEVERAL interactions to achieve the same result. That plays a big part in why they're not viable. I could go on. It's almost like you could make a video on that or something!

I could imagine a character specific map hazards to be unleashed. The more the combos guys hit you in quick succession? The more the map breaks and becomes hard to maneuver arround. While you as the heavy stays impervious to your own Lava, Bananas or whatever. It woud require a lot more skill and thought put in, in beating you. And it would LOOK cool. And Kids would probably like it, cause you get to feel like an epic raid boss or something =D

My idea for super heavy is they can shield stunt their opponent, by attacking if it hit their shield then the opponent can't drop their shield for a short period of time so they can't evade or hit back as easy, depends on how strong the move is (Tilt ,Smash).