Watch the full debate here: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/gNKda92T3cmrcWw.html

"And it's toxic because it's powerful" I shall thank you for pointing out to me the way to become powerful. Toxicity is the way!

“it’s toxic because it’s powerful”...so power is toxic; or is it only toxic when exercised by one sex?

Reject weakness, embrace masculinity

As a man, I tried to be open-minded to learn what toxic masculinity is. However, the information is more illogical than some of the media misinformation.

Varuna Mitra: "Controlling traditional masculinity unleashes tremendous benefits on society." Holy shit. Could there be a more sexist statement?

I believe it makes more sense to simply say that all people have toxic traits. Those traits that are neither masculine nor feminine, but human.

"Boys will be boys" used to be an expression that described the rambunctious physical trait that caused boys to do things like wrestle and explore that sometimes resulted in them getting physically hurt in some way. The use of the term to describe inappropriate male behavior, particularly that against women, was not something that men did, it was something women said as a derogatory term against those men, but also painting all men with the same degrading brush. The men who didn't engage in that behavior didn't say "boys will be boys" in regard to it, they rightfully criticized that behavior. The argument that women had to have men as their role models in the past, so men should accept women as role models now is pure garbage. Women have always had women role models. The truth is that both men and women have been role models for both men and women throughout history.

As a wise man once said: "woman detected, opinion rejected"

It's not up to anyone else to decide if you can be traditionally masculine or not.

Traditional masculinity is defined in academia via the Conformity to Masculine Norms Inventory (Mahalik). The earlier inventories were a very mixed bag of positives and negatives. Mahalik's is almost all negative. "Playboy" makes it onto the list, based on a citation wherein just 1% of the men surveyed described being able to score with women as "intrinsic to their masculinity." More than half of the men surveyed in the cited source described being nurturing, and being a faithful partner, as intrinsic to their masculinity, but these did NOT make it into the inventory. The western canon of literature is FILLED with examples of traditional masculinity that are not about power for its own sake, nor about needing to be a leader. Tolkien was criticized for his poor understanding of women, but one thing he did understand was masculinity, as demonstrated by his very different male protagonists who each embodied something positive about the masculine psyche: Sam/loyalty, friendship, love and hope. Frodo/self sacrifice and courage. Merry/courage and steadfastness. Pippin/ingenuity and curiosity. Aragorn/responsibility. Gimli and Legolas/friendship and reconciliation. Gandalf/wisdom and cleverness. Boromir/duty and boldness. Faramir/honor and kindness. The characters who meet bad ends? Saruman/power hungry and disloyal. Grima/lying sycophant. Boromir/arrogance. Denethor/cold, unforgiving, prideful and power hungry. Even the Epic of Gilgamesh condemns men who want power for its own sake, pridefulness, and the irresponsible use or abuse of power, and holds loyalty, courage, persistence, friendship and love as the highest masculine ideals. This woman doesn't even know what traditional masculinity is.

welp, good thing "the reject modernity, embrace masculinity" made a epic came back to our history lol

but if they seem to have different definitions of "traditional masculinity" then the debate cannot happen. they're essentially debating on separate topics, if they don't agree on a proper definition/set of attributes of "traditional masculinity"

I'll keep pumping iron, I'll keep Loving my wife, I'll keep hunting deer with a bow and arrow, I'll keep skinning rabbits for food, I'll keep well minded and follow Christ and I don't care what you tell me to do, masculinity is strength and in a generation of weakness and infidelity, myself and my fellow brahs out there will come on top 💪💪 stay strong lads, Reject modernity, embrace masculinity

Imagine how people like her are going to raise their next generation

A man needs a woman's opinion on masculinity as much as a fish needs a bicycle.

Reject modernity, embrace masculinity.

Baroness Hale has also said that women need to be treated even more leniently in the criminal justice system than they already are. Why? Because a false conceptualization of equality leads to unequal treatment of women and girls, so we need to bring a true conceptualization of equality that treats men and women differently into the system to compensate for it.

I'm failing to hear a definition of 'Traditional Masculinity'. Without it, there is no argument. What is who rejecting? As with many of these debates, they are hamstrung from the start as people argue against an apparition as if it were something manifest and orchestrated.

Well...LMFAO. This was ridiculous from start to finish. Can this just be renamed to Logical Fallacy Bingo?

Did anyone read the description? "The speaker in this video is a competitive debater, and therefore the views expressed may not necessarily represent their beliefs."

Something something social construct, something something balance of power... This is getting old.

Wahmen defining, discussing & debating Masculinity, Oh the irony.

Reject toxic modernity, embrace masculinity

This young lady is extremely inspiring. If someone with such a poor ability to make a valid point can go to Oxford University, that means I can go as well.

Is this a Gillette ad?

Woman detected, Opinion rejected Be strong men, we all gonna make it

Look at her, all oppressed by traditional masculinity...

Remember my kings, Zyzz is watching over us. Get disciplined. Get shredded, discard degeneracy and EMBRACE YOUR MASCULINITY.

3:46 It doesn't prove that something is wrong. It proves that some people make good choices and other people make bad choices in life. Traditional masculinity (of which there is no solid definition) is a correlation, but that doesn't prove causation. 4:10 Nobody assumes your bold baby is a boy or a girl. It is biologically proven by looking between the legs. I believe you are all adult enough to understand what I mean. Still not sure? We can look at the chromosomes of the baby: XX for a girl, XY for a boy. 4:59 Boys will be boys DOES imply for the boy to be himself. Because if we would say: boys will be girls, that would only confuse the boy because he isn't a girl. The boy is a boy, therefore the statement is correct. 5:07 And you are putting more pressure on manhood by saying we are 'TOXIC' and that it should be abolished. You are not solving the problem, you are creating the problem. 5:52 Why women cannot be role models for boys? Seriously? How ignorant can you be? Only good fathers can teach boys how to become good men themselves. A woman has different traits than a man, you know: masculine traits vs feminine traits. 6:01 She left out the option that these people choose their role models. They were not forced to pick them. 6:25 Actually, ever heard of Management by Objectives and how that improves overall performance in business? Maybe these high standards (to which you contribute) are like objectives. Maybe men aim for the impossible to become the best men they can be. 6:35 It seems like you are making a mistake in reasoning here. Masculine traits are normally attached to men, but that doesn't mean that they are exclusively for men. A woman can also be very masculine and a man can also be very feminine. We call the former a 'tough woman' and the latter a 'soft man'. 6:50 Power is not a trait. Power is a currency. And like with money, there is a natural imbalance. Simply because some people choose to dedicate their lives to gain more power and other people are not so bothered by getting more power. And then again: this imbalance is due to the freedom of choice we have. We are not forced to be in lesser power, nor are some people forced into having great power. It all highly depends on what choices one makes in life. It is the same reason why more men are in high positions. Men, generally speaking, are willing to work 80+ hours a week and sacrifice their own private time for the business they are in. If a woman wants to do that too, all power to her. However, biologically speaking: a man can get children from puberty till death. A woman, on the other hand, has a biological clock to take into account. Therefore a lot of women stop working around their 30s to get children before time runs out. 10:44 If it were the other way around, would she also say: god forbid? She would probably be in outrage if it were the other way around. But we can only assume that. 11:29 Now that is a real problem when some actions committed by men are considered a crime and the same actions are not considered a crime if done by women. It also contradicts constitutional laws in which we agreed that EVERYBODY should be treated equally before the law. We also agreed on innocent until proven guilty. You are promoting guilty until proven innocent. The latter kind of thinking will be the end of the rule of law. We cannot start putting people into prison or punish people for crimes that they have not been found guilty of without delivering proof. The burden of proof should always be on the person making the claim somebody committed a crime or broke a law. Not the other way around. 11:54 Because it is some sort of progress, it doesn't mean that it is a progression in the right direction. Progress does not necessarily a positive outcome. If I walked into a burning house, I would also make progress in my distance walked, but that doesn't mean it is smart progress to make.

I disagree with her 100%, but I love the fact Oxford is allowing these debates to take place. Anyone with any sense should fight for her right to speak. Being a debate, not sure all the people actually hold these views totally. I'm saying that as someone who trained in law and debate.

I wouldn't underestimate her. She is a good speaker.

REJECT MODERNITY BOYS EMBRACE TRADITION

Women say men to stop interfering in women's problem like abortion, but at the same time say to stop traditional masculinity?? Isn't that hypocrisy? Opinion rejected, embrace masculinity...

I'm surprised that the Oxford Union allowed comments on this video lol

Poor woman was given an impossible task, and failed. There are so many holes in this, starting with the assumption that masculinity necessarily involves discussion about women or that it cannot apply to women and thus still be desirable.

I wish I could get the opportunity to debate there. I am a first generation male immigrant. I grew up in a violent household with no male role model. I joined the army to put myself through university, to feel part of a group as I was loner and become closer to my new home country as a immigrant. The military is often criticised for being filled with toxic masculinity but to me it was my saviour and a hope from sucidal thoughts I had before I joined. It's unfair to see privileged members of society debate a issue that affects the bottom, a fair representation would have included the likes of the non-priviledged society but they would never get a chance to debate in such a arena.

I Love how incorrect You Are

Reject weakness return to masculinity

is this why the dislike button was removed.

You should accept modern masculinity then, and once it becomes a tradition you can reject it by calling it traditional masculinity, and then start all over again accepting modern version until modern becomes traditional

What we need to reject is the the rise toxic feminism before we write ourselves out completely.

Reject stupid opinion Embrace discipline and masculinity

Reject modernity, embrace masculinity

Absolutely ludicrous. Yet another ideologue mouthing platitudes from a group looking for safe spaces and giving out free hugs. How far we have fallen.

Rarely in my life have I heard so much complete and utter rubbish compressed into a mere 13 minutes.

Her argument basically unravels completely at 6:20 ...

Reject toxic masculinity, embrace true masculinity

5:40 So here she is womansplaining to men that they don't need male role models in education. As if she knows what it's like to be a man growing up. Simultaneously having benefited from the femalecentric education system that benefited her.

Reject nature?

"And its toxic because its powerful". And? Being powerful is not inherently toxic, its what you do with said power. The quote "with great power comes great responsibility" sums that up.

Ok.. Now imagine a men saying way femininity is bad in public... Advance RIP to him

Can we just banish the word "problematic" from civil debate. It is hardly going to win over the other side. Eyes roll as soon as soon as it is uttered in common discourse, as your interlocutor predicts the generic world view that will thereafter spill forth.

As a woman I’m extremely disappointed in young women today , liberal women just wants to silence strong conservative women, traditional masculinity isn’t harmful but communist socialism are dangerous.

Guys, don't listen to this woman. Seriously. Traditional Masculinity is the way.

1st and foremost: Are all committed relationships toxic? Without the JEALOUSY needed to bind 2 individuals together, there is no union. The very institution of marriage itself is always rooted in JEALOUSY

"Tradition is power" As a tradcath that's gonna be my new mantra thanks.

She never actually defined what "traditional masculinity" is. She just uses adjectives saying it's power and toxic... whatever that means... So is she attacking testosterone?

You will not win. Men have become what they are through the trials of life and the wisdom of their forefathers. You can tear this world apart, and you will try. But it’s strong men who will build it back again. What you consider toxic, is what you need to survive once the walls come down and you turn to those men to save your weak female bodies. Stay hard men, and reject this modern weakness.

I like how a female talks about this like She would have experienced it many times before. It's like a men talking about being kicked in the balls hurts more than menstruating. And the competitive behavior and most of the masculine things are due to the hormone testosterone.

I shall be your nightmare NO PITY NO REMORSE NO FEAR FOR ONLY TRUE GOD OF HUMANITY AND MANKIND I SHALL BE TOXIC MUSCULAR MAN

The weird thing is that she'll happily be in a relationship with the kind of "traditional masculine"/alpha male type person (hypergamy). Total nonsense, no real substance.

Reject cringe, weakness, modernity embrace masculinity, manhood, no fap we are all gonna make it BRAHS FUARRK.

I cant believe this is a serious debate at Oxford, inverted female wahabism

@OxfordUnion - next debate: "Humanities today are inherently hostile towards men."

I open doors for women because I honor them. But thanks for telling me what my gesture means. Funny, I also often open the door for guys - what do I mean by that gesture?

This debate is so stupid- My mother handled me and my sis harshly when it came to life & values in our childhood and Now we sure think that was good of her back then. Masculinity is a character trait ie not exclusive to men per se. Infact it is more related to mind. Feminism is a big illusion.

9:23 Yes, men are always conscious that they have to answer to something bigger which is known as 'the law'.

Tradition is NOT power, sorry little lady but you are way off base!

toxic affluency is far more dangerous than toxic masculinity. Most of toxic masculinity can be attributed to sociopathy, psychopathy and willful ignorance, composing a small minority of men. Inflate a non-issue to eclipse a real issue; forget everything you think know... then re engage with the world.

"power" , "traditional" Don't need to define or explain what you mean by those terms at all......perfectly self explanatory. Lol Men are represented at the extremes of distributions because the male of the human species express wider biological variation and then the females choose between them. Women mate across and up socioeconomic hierarchies. The people who think that unhappiness is caused by "power imbalances" are just playing the same old Marxist game. And they're willing to violate principles of justice to try and correct what they see as the causes of suffering. They're wrong in the diagnosis, they're wrong on the solutions and they are supported in their self deception by our whole University system. Long story short, these are the leaders of tomorrow, and we're fuked

REJECT MODERNITY, EMBRACE TRADITION

I’m bothered but at the same time I’m not. When I raise my kids they will be stronger than the rest that have been raised to be fairies 🧚‍♀️.

In my country girls have two options after graduation 1. Become housewife 2. Become a working woman and give your salary to your husband . I hope this thing changes very fast and let even woman suffer unemployment why the hell only men shoulf suffer. Traditional Masculinity is needed till we have soldier robots with boston dynamics and advanced artificial intelligence .

In the beginning she states that masculinity is something to be nurtured, then later on attempts to define it in clearly evolutionary biological terms. These terms still make sense inside a vacuum where "nurture" is ignored. I just dont see how one can claim masculinity is completely nurture when they define it in terms which oppose the that claim. Masculinity is a balance of natural inclinations and society enforcing limitations to them.

Wait. Did she just say she doesn't know the difference between baby boys and girls? ONE HAS A STICK, THE OTHER HAS A HOLE! THAT'S A DIFFERENCE!

In the same way that you can't debate a MATHEMATICAL statement, there are topics that are exclusively for science to investigate and inform society.

This girl's name is Varuna Mitra? These are two major divinites from the Rigved, a very important Indo-European text. Not sure why her parents decided to name her that way, it is pretty strange. Not sure if this is a joke. Clearly, though, she has no knowledge of the Rigved, otherwise she would know the central position of 'Traditional' Masculinity in that religion.

Its not because of traditional masculinity but more because of the Lack of masculinity and the Lack of a father figure in young men .

she is right

You are free to believe whatever you want and I am free to not care about it and do what I want. Deal with it.

Yes shut the opposition down. Call them names. Throw mud. Throw punches. Throw low punches when they can't punch back.

The current state of progressivism. This is not the future, it is now our deathly reality.

My brother holds the door for me. It feels so respectful. He holds the door for everyone/anyone

An utterly meaningless debate. "Traditional masculinity" is vague and ambiguous term for one and hasn't been properly defined and contextualised by the speaker. For two it seems to be conflated with Toxic masculinity". Toxic masculinity as a definition seems an all out assault on male predisposition to frank, rowdy and foul mannered speech. While it posits that such behaviour can be harmful to men, woman and society in general, it fails to state how such unwholesome; outcome negatively affects society. There is a general standard of behaviour that all citizens must adhere to, the failure of which no right thinking individual will wish to engage with them. In her latter discourse it would appear that she is calling, for a restructuring of male position of power to be more, evenly saturated with the female sex. Yet am not sure what this has to do with rejecting traditional masculinity. It would seem a rather naive outlook on things when considering that men have been the bearer of society most arduous tasks and affairs. And moreover more biologically designed to cope with this demand. Women on the other hand have fallen safe under the protection of their husband breadwinner activities particularly during the 1940s. She hasn't articulated why rejecting traditional masculinity whatever that is beneficial to society or why perhaps more appropriately why traditional masculinity is outdated. Perhaps framed in the context of the family one can state that the contrasting role of both masculine and feminine role is essential to upbringing and emotional survivability/ resilience of child. Too emotional out of the care nuturing of the mother the child risks being too dependent on emotional support in times of crises. With the masculine drive fostered by the father a child cultivates discipline, independence and drive to cope with challenges life presents. I noticed that she made no remark regarding how both masculinity and femininity compliment each other.

As a guy she makes complete sense. However, i'm now convinced not to take those who advance these ideas on Twitter seriously. Most of them don't know what they're saying But here someone clearly articulates something that's both reasonable and true. Now I'm going to listen to the other side And I'm grateful for intelligent conversations like this one, where people speak after thoroughly thinking through the subject matter rather than ranting out what they've been "told to believe" by some "feminists". I don't know if I'll agree with everything she proposes as the way forward but I do know that she has presented her case intelligently and thoughtfully. Wonderful to witness.

Sour grapes?

Maybe this is the reason that KZfaq has disabled the count for dislikes

*OPİNİON REJECTED*

Its simply aberrant that women are allowed to talk about this topic and are chosen as speaker too. Oxford has become a parody of politically correct!

Embrace masculinity.

😂 Vive la "Traditionnal masculinity" 💪🏻👌🏻

toxic feminism is perfectly acceptable though It seems.

Traits of traditional masculinity include strength,leadership,independence and assertiveness. I don’t know doesn’t sound that toxic to me.

My long held belief that Oxbridge produces the best minds is being challenged.

This debate is the embodiment of "sexism"

Don't you love a woman explaining what is the right way to be a man and masculinity?

What shes ACTUALLY SAYING here is that: Reject being a man and be a meek,weak, girl. But i say NO, shes just making nonsensical shticks here, and thus should be forgotten for 1000 yrs.

everyone in the comments is pissed asf. sure, she did spew out tone of bs but traditional toxic masculinity is a serious problem. put aside even the harm it causes to the opportunities for women, it hinders a man's performance as well. toxic masculinity does exist and so does toxic feminity. embrace masculinity not toxic masculinity. the line is thin

Read between the lines, homosexuality is being promoted.