“Wide empires are dead! Long live wide empires!” - Devs probably.

One crucial thing: the effect takes place once you ascend. Meaning there is nothing stopping you from having those planets developed beforehand and filled instantly when you finish ascending, skipping the "death valley" on the chart. I for one cannot wait to test it out, the pop lag is gonna be glorious.

Stellaris devs trying to balance tall Vs wide challenge

Oh my... Trade rings are back in menu boys. Generally ring/ECU will be developed instantly, it's insane!

adding the rough upkeep (especially pop upkeep) to the equation should turn that straight line into a second curve. making a graph to estimate the optimal number of planets is a good idea, but the further you go without taking upkeep into account the less accurate this will be.

Montu: "And you can smash EVERYONE!" Montu, have you been playing with the Xeno-Compatability setting on again?? 😅

I think the main thing that will have a major impact on these calculations is the fact that specialist pop output increases are few and far between so u will find it very hard to counter the alloy and tech output decreases from virtual. in addition empire sprawl is something I don't think people are taking in to account u have 15 worlds with 100 pop on each world that's 1500 pops. This will give u a lot of empire sprawl meaning Ur tech and unity output is effectively even worse due to the tech cost increase

I mean, you are still limited by the empire size, just like the regular empire. So, if 3-5 planets have the same output as 10-15 planets, but you have 100 empire size instead of 200 it's a major difference.

I had literally JUST given up on how much I love trade rings thematically and accepted that building them is more of a meme flex than a viable thing to do with your resources. And now you're making me dream of 4 system vassals with 2 ringworlds and 2 ecu's filling both the galaxy and my trade federation with gloriously overdone commerce.

20:20 All hail the Cryptocurrency Empire! I cannot wait trying to combine this with a Gigastructural Birch World. Elowiny, any wish of yours to _literally_ break the game will be granted.

It's also insane with vassals... like really insane... release virtual empires for so much scaling.

I think a key problem unanswered is whether regular biological pops can grow on virtual empire's planets and slowly replace your garbage virtual pops. If the answer is yes... It's going to be wild

Your empire: virtual ascension. Next empire finding yours: Bunker bot event starts.

2 relic worlds of size 25 + and 3-4 ring segments) :

it still is the best tall ascension when you are forced into it (early blocked system and you got no more than 3 planets), then you`ll compete better with this ascension than without

I always tell myself "I'm going to play tall this time" and then bam, my borders are 1/4 the galaxy...

i think overall it will be better for tall, the empire size will be deadly but my first thought was: "omg, it will be perfect for purifiers or crysis megacorp"

Gonna be real fun to play this in gigastructures like birch planets

Go 5 to 6 planets and build habitats while ascending, only colonizing them during/after ascension. Getting systems would be easier then planets

I, for one, appreciate the use of the word 'salient' at @17:10. What a great word.

I do believe you are underestimating empire size. That's the main reason why I think tall will be better. Sovereign guardianship, beacon of liberty, etc... to completely negate empire size from pops. And I already have pretty great success as tall so this will probably be amazing for me

Determined Exterminator will be bonkers with this - conquer planet, and boom - instantly filled, up and running

This would get really crazy once you get Ring worlds and Arcology worlds.

That sounds totally busted on an Ecumonolopis or a Ringworld. Trade build (is not a Ressourse) goes Brrrrrrrr

Well the math is rather simple. Sure All my jobs produces 25% of the normal. However if I can have 10X+ the number of jobs. Then who cares. And I am speaking from experience: I pay with Ancient Cache of Technologies and Acquisition of Technologies mods in addition to Gigastructural Engineering. And once I do the Dark Matter Core special projects AoT and research that version of the fallen empire buildings. I spam the Terraforming Megastructures and Artificial Worlds to get as many build slots as I can to snowball my economy as fast as possible.

Hi. I saw the reddit post. You nailed it, I think a big factor in limiting that will be the empire size. I will be enough to make it better on tall empires than wide, but not enough to not make it better by a wide margin than any other ascention path. If the virtual pops give any empire size, a wide empire's will skyrocket. There are way around that, but they generally speaking they push you toward a tall empire. So we can expect barely any research done, no additional tradition and having to carefully choose the edicts. Arguably it's not as much of a big deal once you're in late game and have unlocked the best tradition you'll have and your key technology, but still it's something that will be a big penalty if rushed. On the other hand, tall empires can stack bonus to building speed faster, in the case of ecu and ringworlds get more pops per districts, and get more bonus per pops, all while having quite a lot more pops than normal empires. So I think it's the way to go if you want to rush it. But anyway, you know what benefit a lot of stacking an absurd number of pops in a single world, having a lot of logistic growth and two free growing queue, get tons of unity from a special job and just got access to a massive gaia or ocean world for starter ? I think Rogue Servitors will be the new meta.

As others have mentioned, seems optimal use is to identify a core sector, or what will be your core sector, then once you ascend, release your sectors into specialized vassals, optimizing each sectors buildings for the desired effect. Then just tax the appropriate resources. So i imagine your core world is one or two size 25 ecu and a ring world, then you have two scholariums, and a prospectorium. Resource glitches make everything go brrr…

I suspect that shattered ring megacorp could be quite synergetic with this virtual ascension.

The order of operations on the math for penalties and bonuses is going to matter a ton...

Rogue servitors bout to go crazy

That instant population max on a colony will create quite a runaway effect.

I can see them just going the last push, 1 more planet -100%. Tbh I am super excited by this. I love playing tall and I want undying leaders.

I just want to see how crazy Relic world into Ecumenopolis would be on Virtuals.

I’m pretty sure that increased pop energy upkeep will eventually hardcap you (not sure when) because your pop energy upkeep will exceed pop energy output

Gaia into Ecumenopolis is probably gonna be overkill tall

Imagine if it turns out that the nano machine ascension is really good for tall empires.

For virtuality to actually be a tall tradition, the scaling penalty needs to be uncapped

Finally time to re-learn the game after being a synth ascension only player for 4 years

Frankly just popping pops in the existence is the issue here, maybe have a Machine assembly still be required, but being its mass drones with brains plugged into after, make em cheaper/faster. and have your worlds that may be at full continuing to produce frames for other worlds/reserve. (maybe as a new resource, that could get tied to a upkeep as frames break down.) just getting two pops (or more) just spawning for 6-12 mths of building, is gonna be far better than 1-2 years of pop growth/assemble. Let alone the logistic curve. Further more much less balancing will be needed or mico of moving pops around, as you can, assuming you have the minerals, literally, colonise it, que it up and forget your world.

Diagonal players been real quiet since this dropped.

I'd be interested to see how this plays out in practice. The energy production from energy jobs seems like it outscales the upkeep until you have quite a lot of planets and I guess with the plentiful other ways you can get energy that could be easier with the rush this empire build seems like it would be capable of. Empire size seems to me like it could be quite crippling from the sheer amount of pops but I can see but the build seems like it would be able to get a huge boost against all other empires for a long period of the game.

Loved seeing the charts again! 😊 Great stuff

Depends on if it's a "decrease" (additive) modifier or a "less" (multiplicative) modifier. Most modifiers in Stellaris are additive. But it would seem like they do intend it to be multiplicative.

Birch World start from Gigastructure + Virtual ascension might be fun

Great analysis! I do like the idea of mixing regular and virtual pops. Also virtual clerks eh. Clerks finally good.

the issue is a basic math mistake you find in every video game: adding together multiplicative bonuses. of course this is done purposefully in many game. base idea is: if you have a +50% bonus to a stat, it multiply that stat by 1.5 simple and straightforward. however, if you had a -75% on that stat, you were not starting at 100%, you are at 25%, and now the +50% bonus is actually multiplying your stat by 3. there's no right or wrong way to do your bonus/malus maths in a video games, it always causes some issues somewhere else. you simply have to be mindful of how they work and interact and make those decision consciously when designing a game. if you multiply them between one another, you end up with things like singular high numbers maluses having much more value than bonuses. for example, to compensate for a -50% reduction in something, you need a +100% increase to that thing. adding percent modifiers together before applying them also has it's perks. for example it gives diminishing returns on bonuses, and is often used to prevent game breaking multiplier stacking. on the other hand, it gives increasing returns to maluses... the "proper" solution is generally using a logarythmic scale, this is often used for the defense/armor stats in video games. for example in league of legends (and many over games), the damage reduction formula is 100/(100+armor). so if you have 100 armor, your damage multiplier is 0.5, a 50% damage reduction. what's really good about this type of formula is that adding 1 point of armor reduce your damage taken by exactly 1% of what you were taking before. the only problem is, that it's not as obvious to understand. if you were to use such formulas to deal with bonuses and maluses to output in stelaris, it would make most players confused. but that would be totally doable. have a "production bonus" (let's shorten it "PB") stat that represent how much your prod is increased, but you need a bit more complex formula. when PB is positive PB/100 + 1 is your multiplier, when PB is negative you use 100/(100-PB). as a result, when you have 50PB is +50%, 100PB is +100% and so on, they simply work as percent increase when positive, with proper diminishing returns since you add them together. but the true magic is when you go into negative multipliers, for -50pb you are at -33% production, -100PB is -50%, -200PB is -67%, and so on, proper diminishing returns on maluses too so that they can't reach the -100% threshold (which would then requires you to place a hard cap to maluses). and now, each point of negative PB has the exact same value as a point of positive PB, each malus has the exact same effective value as a bonus of identical magnitude. once you implement those maths into a game you can also break them appart. you can have a global empire wide PB, but then add to it some over specific bonuses and maluses before applying it. for example, you have a global PB of 50 thanks to traditions and such, and then you have a policy that reduce mineral output by 100PB and increase energy output by 100BP, you can just do the maths at the end point, mineral output takes a -50bp modifier, and energy output takes a 150BP modifier. it makes numbers much easier to balance, since you can never really break them. you could use a similar formula for all the "reduce empire size from X by n%" too/

i dont see it working wide. with the cost per pop and empire size you would practically slow down to a crawl towards the endgame.

I think it would be a good idea to create vassals after you have ascended, since the subjects have the same parameters as you. This mean that you could release subjects with 3-5 Planets and benefit from theire big resources produktion.

Looking forward to the new pop upkeep reduction meta. - Durable trait: 10% - Synchrony/harmony opener: 10% - Fanatic xenophile with a full set of culture workers on every planet: 15% - Council stacked with advisors: Say at least 15%? I'm not sure how much is practical here Adds up to 50%, and I probably forgot some modifier sources. Conveniently, a trade build wants the last two features regardless. Sacrificing other council positions in order to get more advisors for those 5% pop upkeep reductions might be worthwhile.

Just go for somewhere between 1 and 5 worlds If you go wide the upkeep is gonna spiral out of control and you will just have to put everything into trade value and energy just to keep up with it Start with ocean paradise, remnants or life-seeded, expand as normal, increase your main worlds' sizes with the usual fancy tricks like rings and planetary sea expansion and then once you ascended you abandon all unnecessary colonies (or turn them into vassals) and hope none of the crisises spawn on top of you

i hope these ascension paths are available for any machine empire so i can use it on shattered ring

Love all your stuff Monty. Thank you

Im definitly doing a Birch world Virtual Pops run when Gigastructures is updated for the DLC

Almost everything they add to promote tall playstyle can be taken and used to make wide even more efficient, like Sovereign Gauridianship. Virtual being used for wide will just be par for Stellaris.

Montu Math back at it again!

In the late game I always have like 50 worlds I just completely ignore. virtuality means that they will all have way more value to that sort of empire

I think a good start would be to make the modifier global - something that scales on top of every other modifier you have multiplicatively, rather than letting other positive modifiers cancel it out additively.

Funny, I was doing much the same thought experiment after the reveal too. And I actually did factor in the other bonuses. I opened a late game save, took a few jobs and added all their bonuses together, then see how that output compared after adding a -75% modifier. Turns out my scientists and metallurgists would only produce about 30% less after the penalty, which doesn't seem too bad if we're also talking more jobs per planet and being able to develop new planets much faster. Here's a sticking point though; if your core population goes virtual, will you actually have the means to set your non-virtual pops from immigration to researcher jobs, or will the nature of your virtual pops override your other pops, automatically filling those jobs and leaving your non-virtual pops unemployed? Assuming you can just have your non-virtual pops working research seems like a major assumption. And I agree, empire size will become a problem when it comes to keeping up with research.

Im looking forward to virtual the most

I have a critical question about Virtual ascendancy. It may have been answered somewhere else but I haven't seen it. How does this virtual pop generating thing choose which pops it creates for which jobs? Does it automatically choose the templates you have created with the best traits for that specific job? Or is it random? Or what? I feel like this virtual ascendancy would be the best ascendancy path for me no matter what simply because I hate managing pops and waiting on pops to grow and then worrying about having too many pops, etc etc.

Tall empires are just wide empires in the closet

I cannot wait to do a one-planet challenge with virtual pops. So much potential.

If you get free pops for jobs this is completely OP. I typically have like 40+ planets late game due to Habitat Spam. The more habitats the faster your pop grows even though most of them are empty breeding grounds. The Habitat change didn't stop the spam it just spread it out over more system. However it does allow Habitats to grow rather large and being able to actual fill them all would be insane.

Well the math is rather simple. Sure All my jobs produces 25% of the normal. However if I can have 10X+ the number of jobs. Then who cares. And I am speaking from experience. I pay with Ancient Cache of Technologies and Acquisition of Technologies mods in addition to Gigastructural Engineering. And once I do the Dark Matter Core special projects AoT and research that version of the fallen empire buildings. I spam the Terraforming Megastructures and Artificial Worlds to get as many build slots as I can to snowball my economy as fast as possible.

I am looking at a syncretic evolution build with this. Have the slaves work all the worker jobs in the early game, then virtually ascend and turn all those slave pops into livestock. All those worker jobs will be instantly filled and the food produced will be pretty ridiculous. Then go catalytic processing and boom, your economies minerals open up like crazy with only a cost to consumer goods.

virtual plus ecumenopolis is a no brainer or ring world/shattered ring they offer the best overall tall setup to output ratio for a planet asides a crucible world but thats cyborg shattered ring leave it unupgraded for basic materials then specialize each of the other 2 rings or getting relic worlds to make into ecumenopolis worlds or just converting home and 2 solid large planets into ecu’s once u have say mega structures for basic stuff or trade boom thats your solid best tall setup for virtual pops given what those planets output imho from there u can play w 4/5 see if it helps or hampers overall output this update is going to make remnants and shattered ring such crazy good starts for what you can do with them later once you go virtual so the general rule of 3-5 planets early to mid game is still good once you be convert and a safe bet to use as a baseline small edit the cybrex and first league will be absolutely bat shit precursors w virtual especially the cybrex as you can get w second ring world w them from the cybrex coming back if the contingency is on and possibly even the fallen empire w ring systems to take filling multiple ring systems will absolutely snowball the shit out of your economic power and output on all fronts

Im really excited to try and do void dwelling bots with guardianship(for the reduced empire size from pops and districts since i wouldnt need many planets) and catalytic converters for the higher base output on alloys and special resources

Tbh, this sounds like an oversight if it really works. Maybe the negative modifier will end up being mulitplicative instead of additive? You know, like how the exp malus you get for going over the leader cap works.

some more considerations: how many of the districts per planet are housing districts for normal empires? Since you don't need housing, you could get away with less of those (potentially) also if the districts provide extra jobs, the base output of the planet would be higher for virtual than normal empires. so in your calculations, a virtual world would be outputting like 150 vs 100 on a normal world. Amenities and happiness is also something to keep in mind for the virtual pops, though if you're running a trade empire, this should probably be manageable.

1 big question is how will pop modding work? When you fill a planet can it be from only one subspecies? Also like you said that modifier can be avoided by focusing on trade (and making subjects).

I had basically this concern when i heard about how virtual works. My thoughts are the penalty should be an uncapped increase in virtual pop upkeep instead of a reduction in production. This should ensure that you really cannot grow too large. Also i was thinking about having to build out virtual pop capacity via districts which can then be consumed to fill jobs.

I do have a few questions. First is "This number is reduced by 25% for each colony, to a minimum value of -75%." Reads ambiguously to me. It that -75% from the 150% (+75% total) or to -75% (or -225% from 150%) making your pops 1/4 as good. Second question is that the pop upkeep is going to get massive. If each pop costs 2 energy and you have 1500 pops, that's 3k energy per month, before jobs. That's 3/4's of a Dyson Sphere. At what point are pops unable to sustain themselves? Third, I'm interested to see how the pops scale with research, as it gets comparatively very little in the way of buffs as of 3.11. I think overall Virtual will be good for tall, and it may very well be good for wide as well, however it being good for wide is making many assumptions. I'm also very excited for Virtual pops, as they just seem so cool XD. Thanks for the vid :).

Something I was thinking about was if you could make your species aquacentric as well, then use the deluge colossus weapon to make all of your planets huge (or whatever it is that you can use to expand the planetary sea)

Omg i hope you make a empire that is robot voddrawller and being viral Buti also see a lot of lag as you can get so many pops

Especially with their ability to instantly fill any jobs as soon as they're free, their expansion game will be insane

Some questions: - isnt that a machine ascension ? so trade is not a thing ? - maybe, after a certain point, you split out vassels (oppression) - another limiting factor might be the number of planets available to you (esp. at the beginning) - Shattered Ring + Rouge Servitor + Virtuality maybe ? :D

Nice redline takes over at 14, minus a bit planets.

This is going to be a meta trait for mid-game rushes. You are going to have to watch your opponents and be ready to gang up on them if this fires off.

Actually, I feel like the real main point in virtual is instant filling of jobs. And there might be several ways of playing this: - Tall and with vassal spam. - Super wide. Possibly using ring worlds and trade to support the growing upkeep. - And finally, starting with Tall, stockpile a lot of resources and then switch to Wide using military and the new planets to increase naval cap + trade to support your economy and alloy production. The real point is the instant filling of jobs which would allow you to be super agile in the way you play. Also, something to take account in the calculations, is that not every planet is created equal and that can change the calculation quite a bit. We also don't know how many additional bonus districts and jobs per districts we get, which can significantly shift the calculation. Though I very much doubt that habitat can cut it as they probably won't have enough jobs to compensate the cumulative upkeep increase as well as the growing empire sprawl. We should also take into account that, if tall, you can increase production on a few planets using unity. And finally, there;s the practicallity of what will be actually possible during real play since it looks like wide play will require a large amount of planets and jobs to compensate for the lost production due to the virtual penalties/upkeep penalty/empire sprawl which might limit how practical wide virtual might be. But I suspect a tall or very moderate wide build will be the most useful when going virtual + vassals (either created or from other civs) + trade + unity production boost.

I'm thinking about doing a megacorp build with the virtualization origin, focusing on forging an early trade federation with myself at the center and periodically releasing extra planets as specialized vassals to augment my economy.

I wanna see Montu disassemble triple x25 crisis with a massively wide overlord build, this could be interesting

1st thing: Empire Size will be crucial i guess. 2nd: Do we know, that it isn't limited to gestalt empires? At least the TV thing seems very broken to me, so i would think, that's of the table. But 3rd: What interest me the most, is how virutality effects districts, planet sizes and planet types. Is it necessary, to grab big worlds early on? What about Ring worlds, Machine worlds or ecus? I know that are questions, that won't be answered very soon. But that's the stuff i want to know.

so a few idea, you should have robot, unless virtual stop you from making robots. I want to know how abandoning a colony will work, I could see myself more interested in keeping colony amount low but upgraded the world I am using as I get ring world and find bigger planets. I could see a full ring world plus 2-3 emu world being all I need. another question is, is there building that provide the virtual pops and do we need to use it. could we have a colony will just physical people and not have that world count to the virtual reduction. some of this might already be know but I have gone and looked for the info yet.

Or you can do both? Just having your main species and any other virtual pops you want on your main 5 worlds, and non-virtual pops on your others. You're not going to be ascending a crapload of extra worlds anyway, so building tall on the core worlds with the virtual pops and everyone else on the other worlds

with the way the negative per colony thing is worded shouldn't the red exponetial decline keep falling until 12 planets since it has the bonus 50% to take from? if thats the case it should fall below the normal blue line with 5-6 planets right? It would depend on if the -75% modifier is capped to the trait but I think its the actual floor for output value in stellaris.

The sustainment of population is nerfed exponentialy by the energy upkeep. If you consider having 100 pop to sustain per planet, you would get huge issue fast with a wide playstyle. If one planet cost 100 energy (1 pop, 1 energy) of upkeep, 10 planets could ask 2000 energy (1 pop, 2 energy), 20 planets would ask 6000 energy (1 pop, 3 energy), 30 planets 12,000, 40 planets 20,000, etc. The limitation on energy, with an empire producing 1/4 of ressources for same job number, would make it unsustainable in my opinion. I remember mananing to get around 2000 energy output with a regular machine planet, fully buffed, so with 1/4 of this... It would require a huge reduction of upkeep, or to sustain this empire with dyson spheres (which is a trope of such empires in Sci-fi). And this simple calculation is "optimistic", the number of potential population would be higher I think, requiring an astronomical energy output. I don't see this perk competing in any way with the regular empire wide playstyle which is better on pure production and long run as you underline it. I suppose it's important in multiplayer but not playing it myself, I wouldn't make huge assumption. In PvE, where relies the balance of the game, you have no real use of so huge output (most being wasted by storage cap) and I think this is more balanced for quick tall growth, which allow a quick, sufficient domination of AI and crisis. And the regular curve of production could be provided by vassals. To conclude, I think an actual gameplay with in game experiments would be more relevant to know it's good or not with wide too. This quick simple thinking is interesting thought, you still show here that it's potentially the best for tall playstyle (the curve of virtuality are still higher on lower number of planets when the regular linear curve, so it fulfill its task). But, the questionable sustainibility of such setup for a wide playstyle make it potentially useless for this purpose, and would require a test in game with the numerous factors it involves.

So do we know if you can mix virtual pops with non virtual ones? If its like a hive mind and it automatically converters pops into virtual ones, that takes away some easy answers.

What happens if you release a sector as vassal after that ascension? they should retain the ascension right? So they get the AI bonus to production, the massive output bump from the virtual trait and then just give you 75% of everything.... :D So i'm thinking snatch everything and then release it as vassals

I think it would have been a good idea to also put the increased upkeep per pop on the graph. I, of course, realise you did talk about it but putting it on the graph is a much more striking image because it's hard for a lot of people to just visualise that kind of exponential growth. I expect it'll work better for Tall for that reason. The extreme upkeep would likely make anything else untenable.

What about having a virtuality trade build, where vieruality penalty won't be applied to trade value, and also having bio species for regular jobs? Or virtual knigts of toixg god with 1-2 planets and habitat full of slaves?

Line goes up!

So in advance I'm gonna say I never played Stellaris and only watched some videos here and there so I apologise if I ask a stupid question, but what about a virtual megacorp(I don't know if they're mutually exclusive or something)? Would that be possible? Would that be viable?

I have a distopian empire that I always have as spawning in my playthrough (It never expands, because Ai does not know how to use the jumpdrives it starts with :P) that will be perfect RP for this acention :)

The general calculation is no different than for regular empires, since they have increasing penalties for extra planets and pops (admin cap stuff), except that regular empires don't have local maxima in their curves. In both cases, the limiting factor will probably be availability of planets (6 is easily achievable...15 much less so).

A little off topic but I’m surprised that Montu hasn’t done a renowned and legendary paragon tier list. There’s quite a few of them

I think the virtual IS poorly implemented, If you live in a digital world you still have to do normal Work with phsical bodies such as making alloys where living in the matric doesnt Help you.

26:13 Dyson swarms will be a good bridge during that stage

Gonna Be able to have so many virtual farmers playing farmville

The virtualty assencion path reminds me a lot of Hyperion with the Techocore living in a virtual space

This makes me wonder about if sectors you release keep you ascention picks. I wonder if it would work if you just released sectors as vassals.