Tomcats 4, Libya 0 - The Real Story of the Gulf of Sidra Incidents

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3 жыл бұрын

A few decades before Gaddafi met his untimely demise at the hands of rebels, he made a sport out of provoking the U.S. Navy’s Sixth Fleet assets, primarily by claiming that the entire Gulf of Sidra was territorial Libyan water. He called the line along the northernmost part of the gulf the “Line of Death” and warned that any American ships or airplanes that crossed it would be met with the full force of the Libyan military.
Fighters from the aircraft carrier’s air wing would routinely fly inside the “Line of Death” as part of the American Navy’s “freedom of navigation” operations (aka “FON ops”) designed to prove a commitment to the conventions of international admiralty law that said that the Gulf of Sidra was, in fact, a gulf so therefore the only territorial waters that Libya could claim were those that extended 12 miles off the coastline.
FON ops were generally boring in that the Libyan military didn’t respond at all in spite of Gaddafi’s bluster. Fighters would spend hours on combat air patrol stations drilling holes in the sky without a single vector from the controllers in the early warning aircraft whose radar screens remained blip-free.
The first incident occurred on August 19, 1981 when two Tomcats from VF-41 shot down two Libyan Su-22 "Fitters" after the lead Fitter fired an errant Atoll missile.
The second incident occurred on January 4, 1989 when two F-14A Tomcats assigned to “The Swordsmen” of VF-32 flying off of the USS John F. Kennedy (CV 67) got the call to investigate two contacts that had launched out of Tobruk - a dream scenario for Cold War-era aviators, but one that also had a few dubious moments, particularly for the pilot and his radar intercept officer (RIO) in the lead aircraft.
The rules of engagement at that time were more lenient than previous Sixth Fleet rules had been in that a Libyan aircraft didn’t have to fire at an American to be declared hostile but simply if it had turned toward an American aircraft that had attempted to turn away three times.
The two Tomcats ultimately downed the Libyan MiG-23s after they appeared to jink into the flight more than three times, which met the ROE matrix for engagement in spite of the fact the battle group commander had indicated the weapons status was "yellow and hold."
According to Wikipedia, "The actual intent of the Libyan aircraft on 4 January is not known for certain. Details released three months after the incident revealed that the MiG-23s never turned on their onboard radars, needed to guide their AA-7 missiles at maximum range. The turns by the Libyan pilots prior to the first missile launch by the F-14s were considered too slight to be deemed hostile, according to U.S. House Armed Services Committee chairman Les Aspin.[14] Despite these findings, Aspin said the self-defense claim by the U.S. was still justified due to the continued acceleration of the MiG-23s as they closed the distance with the F-14s, and because Libya had a history of firing first."
While the crews earned the title of “MiG killers,” which makes them part of a rare breed in modern warfare, instructors at Top Gun summarized the lead aircraft’s performance in less than glowing terms, let’s say. It’s also telltale that Fighter Pilot of the Year honors that year did not go to Beads, the squadron skipper but instead went to Munster, the wing pilot, who was only a first-tour lieutenant at the time.
More here: www.military.com/off-duty/202...

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@KenRomero 3 жыл бұрын

I was there that day in 89, flying with VQ-2 as an Arabic linguist. I know how it actually went down on the other side, and can say your characterization of that engagement is by far the most accurate I’ve heard. Some might not want to hear it, but there actually was no hostile intent from the Libyan pilots. That much was obvious by the fact they never even turned their radars on. It is good to know that behind the public perception of what took place that day, our fighter community took a more honest and sober appraisal.

@DumbledoreMcCracken 3 жыл бұрын

Thank you

@bmandelbrot 3 жыл бұрын

Hey Ken! An arling saved my life and the lives of our VQ-2 crew in the summer of 1980 in what was the predicate event that led to the eventual Gulf of Sidra air combat episodes in 1981 and 1989.. We were flying what was to be the last PARPRO flight into the central med. 100 miles abeam of Benghazi, we detected a fighter launch to intercept us for an easy shoot down. We determined it to be a Mig-25, but who knows considering the later incidents. We spiraled our EP-3 down to the surface from 25K ft as fast as NATOPS would allow but we blew off the HF antennae anyway. I was the NAV and gave flight a heading of 300 to exit the area at low altitude. After our incident, all PARPRO flights into the Gulf of Sidra were canceled and the area was declared off limits.

@budone7449 3 жыл бұрын

I could not imagine being in their position...so what it seems, the whole situation should never have happened.

@ds2112 3 жыл бұрын

Ken, I was RULing later after you were at DLI, did the Libyan doctrine at the time provide for GCI - ground controlled intercept? Maybe the aircraft didn't have to have their radars ON, as they were guided by the radar on the ground.

@KenRomero 3 жыл бұрын

@@ds2112 - The Libyans followed Soviet GCI doctrine, where ground control radar operators would vector fighters towards potential targets, until they could acquire targets on their own. The pilots were caught completely by surprise, and just wanted to escape the situation.

@ericgulseth74 3 жыл бұрын

I love how brutally honest the flight community is. Only way to get better.

@williamjohnson737 3 жыл бұрын

All highly functional organizations have this culture. It’s critically important to be able to exceed the standard. The word of caution is that those involved must also feel supported and free of persecution, otherwise honesty becomes a problem.

@whydoyougottahavthis 3 жыл бұрын

Would you like to know why?

@ericgulseth74 3 жыл бұрын

@@williamjohnson737 Good point. A safety program is no good if people are afraid of getting in trouble. It's why it's one of the cornerstones of our safety program at work.

@passattdise 2 жыл бұрын

It's called code of honor and integrity.

@TheNecromancer6666 2 жыл бұрын

Navy and Airforce value that their performance is based on complex technologie and science. And they always encourage people to learn and get better. Whole sadly in the army that's usually not the case.

@dannyc.6744 Жыл бұрын

Mooch, I just read "Tonk's" post and he's pretty much right on. I was an A6 (VA35) driver attached to AW8 and was pretty good friends with Larry Muczynski and Jim Anderson. Both Larry and I were LSO's. I was airborne during the shoot down and will share my version of what took place: The day of the shoot down was the second day we had set up several CAP stations with two sections of F14's on each station. We had a tanker about 50 miles from the CAP station and flex deck operations were underway. To my knowledge few if any of the F14 drivers stopped for rest. The guys were pumped. Nobody wanted to miss the action. When they got low on fuel they hit the tanker or came back to the ship for more gas. The Libyans were all over our guys. They were flying Migs, Fitters, Mirage, etc. Mixed in with the Libyan's were Russian and Syrian pilots. They were TRYING to get into position to shoot and they could not do it. Our guys are that damn good. One Syrian flying a Mirage started to work the six of one our guys for a nanno second and that was as close as they came to getting a shot off. Our guys would come back just drenched in perspiration from hassling with the Libyan's. On board the Nimitz we had a spook EA3 with CIA, interpreters, etc. That's how we got much of our intelligence information. Day 2, we had the same set up. The Ruskies were controlling operations and they came up with the following strategy. They saturated one of the mid CAP stations which pulled off a section from Henry's CAP. The section that went to help the saturated CAP station was led by none other than Dale "Snort" Snodgrass. Dale was attached to the CVW8 as our wing LSO. Dale sometimes lamented that he had his chance for glory and missed it because he was pulled off Henry's station. I heard the entire engagement on our common frequency. The first thing that we heard was Jim Anderson (Music's RIO) yell "We've been shot at!" Larry later told me when the Fitter fired their ATOL missile, it looked like a telephone pole coming at them. Then we heard Admiral Compton (I believe it was him) say "I understand that you have been shot at?" During this time, Henry and Larry were maneuvering behind the Fitters. Henry came back and said "Affirmative, we have been shot at." The Admiral gave permission to shoot but by then Henry waxed his guy. We heard Henry nonchalantly say "Splash, Mig in the water." Music was riding the saddle sweetening his pipper when Henry started yelling "Shoot Him! Shoot Him!" A few seconds later we heard "Splash, Mig Down" (Of course, both were Fitters). I believe that Henry's guy ejected and Larry sent his opponent to Allah. Me and my B/N Dave Cuttino (Recently died in a GA accident) were ecstatic, yelling, giving each other high five's, etc. It was an incredibly emotional and inspiring event. I was running low on gas and flew back to the ship. A few minutes later, Henry and Larry came into the break. Henry boltered and Larry trapped. Friends of mine said that Vietnam F4 drivers were so pumped that they often bolted after shooting down a Mig. They spun Music's F14 in front of the island and it was like a scene from Top Gun. When Larry climbed down his Fox 14, he was mobbed by cheering sailors. I was the first guy he saw and we embraced. The same with Jim Anderson, known as the BOR (Box of Rocks). They immediately took Larry and Jim away to be debriefed. When Henry finally trapped, he and Dave were both escorted to be debriefed by the AI's. Within a couple of days, Larry and Jim were flown off the ship back to the States for a goodwill tour. CDR Kleeman was CO of VF41 and had to stay with his squadron. Post Navy: Music was a Boat School grad and place kicker for the USNA football team. He's a good looking guy, excellent stick, and all around great guy. He was a perfect fit for the Blues. In fact, they were grooming Music for the Blues when he decided to get out of the Navy. I was "Mr. Airline" and am sorry to say, helped to inspire several of my Navy colleagues to fly the Friendly Skies. I managed to weasel C9's (VR56 Norfolk) and was the Ops officer when I got a call from Music. I thought he was politicking to get into the squadron. He laughed and told me that he was flying Turkey's out of NAS Dallas and just got hired with People Express. Of course, in short order, Larry worked his way into pilot recruitment for the airline. Larry end up hand walking me through the P.E. interview process and got me hired. He also put me up at his home in N.J. I got hired by another airline (A real airline) and turned the job down. Larry had been drinking the P.E. kool-aid and, understandably, was a little miffed. He end up getting hired at Delta Airlines and became a B727 flight engineer instructor. He has subsequently retired from Delta as a captain. Jim Anderson and I were pretty good friends. I was devastated when he pulled a Sonny Bono skiing. Henry Kleeman was your quintessential fighter pilot. He didn't look like one but he could turn you into a pretzel within seconds. He had minimum training in the F18 when he lost control of his plane at Point Mugu. The rescue crew couldn't get to him in time. I barely knew Dave V. Disclaimer: My account of the 1981 Libyan Shoot Down was from memory as it happened. I was there. I heard what I heard and saw what I saw. I also spoke in detail about these things with Music and Jim Anderson. I could have my wires crossed over a few things but, again, this is how I remember it. Dan Collura

@TheMichaelBeck Жыл бұрын

Thanks for your account of the events and a big thanks for your service, Sir. I was a gunner during Desert Storm in 4th Battalion 70th Armor. We were the tank battalion that destroyed an entire Iraqi Republican Guards division in less than two hours during the battle named "Madina Ridge" so I have my big toe in military history too. Best job I ever had. ✌ Ps. I make multiple posts when I see a video because I'll pause it and make a comment. It's an OCD thing. Sorry. 👍

@morganottlii2390 Жыл бұрын

@@TheMichaelBeck Thank You, sir!👍🇱🇷💯

@morganottlii2390 Жыл бұрын

WOW! Thank You sir, for doing what has to be done. And your willingness to do it. May God Bless you, and all of your compatriots for having served with such honor. If I ever get a chance to take another trip by air, you are the kind of pilot I want!👍🇱🇷💯

@dannyc.6744 Жыл бұрын

@@morganottlii2390 Mr. Ott. Thank you, sir. I am now a retired UAL captain.

@chrishusing227 4 ай бұрын

Sir, thank you for your post. I was only nine years old when this happened, but was very proud of the Navy!

@heydonray 3 жыл бұрын

You know something bad is coming up when you hear “We will just call him Steve...”

@Walter_E_Kurtz 3 жыл бұрын

He was saying that in the exact moment that I was reading your comment.

@Leo_Pard_A4 3 жыл бұрын

That was what I was thinking too.

@Dennis-vh8tz 3 жыл бұрын

Though, in the end, it wasn't Steve who's actions were questionable.

@heydonray 3 жыл бұрын

@@Dennis-vh8tz I think you missed something. The scenario is a bit hard to follow but yeah, it was “Steve”, who’s real name I know from folks who are thoroughly informed and who rec’d training on the foul up so as not to repeat it.

@Andrew-13579 3 жыл бұрын

@@heydonray What foul up? I’m missing it too. “Steve” is “wing” RIO, right? I listened to this a few times, and I never caught anything that “Steve” did at all, other than apparently fire a Sparrow from 4 miles which blew up one of the MiG-23’s (1200 kts closure is 1 nm every 3 seconds). That was after lead RIO fired two Sparrows at the other MiG, that didn’t guide, apparently. And then, finally, lead pilot can’t figure out why he can’t get a Sidewinder tone. Switch misconfig , right? Flips switch, growl, tone, fire in like 2 seconds. Did he flip to SW with the trigger squeezed? Almost like, luckily the Sidewinder did just pickup the lock before it left the rail, right? But...what did “Steve” do wrong?? I’m just not tracking.

@brendanstewart5074 3 жыл бұрын

I've listened to this exchange at least 10-20 times in the past, you giving the full context regarding ROE and other protocols was hugely helpful. Thank you.

@KutWrite 3 жыл бұрын

...also seeing an unedited version helps.

@vtwinbuilder3129 3 жыл бұрын

This really is the best telling of these incidents I’ve ever heard. Makes it considerably easier to understand the way he described it.

@mandoreforger6999 3 жыл бұрын

I had heard that the first Fox1 had malfunctioned, but it seems that it was probably not the case.

@vtwinbuilder3129 3 жыл бұрын

@@mandoreforger6999 I guess that depends on how liberal the definition of malfunction is being applied. It sounds more like operator error to me as well to be honest.

@jimpalmer1969 3 жыл бұрын

@@vtwinbuilder3129 There were errors to be sure. In 1989 the state of the military was pretty green. Not to be negative about our service members, but the US had not been in any major actions since the end of Viet Nam in 1972. There really wasn't anyone on active duty that had seen action. Things changed in the 1990s.

@Deafwing 3 жыл бұрын

I'm not entirely sure why your channel popped up in my suggestions, but I'm really glad it did.

@IROCZSPEED 3 жыл бұрын

Ditto

@steelbre 3 жыл бұрын

@imouse3246 3 жыл бұрын

It was interesting, no question.

@garymarkz4672 3 жыл бұрын

Same here. I'll drop one for the algos

@charon669bb 3 жыл бұрын

I'm glad too.

@ytbonsig 2 жыл бұрын

Great breakdown of the incident. I was the senior intruder on the next launch. If you’re interested, I can tell you “the rest of story” … some crazy stuff.

@Lucid95642 2 жыл бұрын

This bring back memories! I served in VF-41 Black Aces from 1994-1997. This story was told during my tour in the squadron. 20 years Navy. Thank you Sir for the great story. Forever Tomcat!

@bobstephenson4391 3 жыл бұрын

Old Marine Cobra guy here. I was in college when the first incident happened and was doing a FAC tour when the second one happened. Great brief! My son is a F-18D WSO at Beaufort right now (grad TOPGUN Dec’19, WTI Oct ‘20). One of my daughters is a MH-60S driver in the screaming Indians, just came off of Nimitz, another daughter is a E-2C NFO currently in the Screwtops on the Ike. I will send this to them!

@nickdannunzio7683 3 жыл бұрын

I worked with a USMC Cobra Pilot (Verizon), in Philly, he was done active and was a reservist at Willow Grove, his ACO was one of my coworkers (same company)... I was a reservist Seabee also drilling at WG... after getting them a copy of my orders and pentagram... I was able to go for a ride... we went to McGuire... one of the most awesome experiences of my life...

@bend1483 3 жыл бұрын

Now that’s a pretty cool family!

@WardCarroll 3 жыл бұрын

Awesome, Bob. Thanks, Marine!

@bobstephenson4391 3 жыл бұрын

@@WardCarroll Do you know Flex Destafney and/or Butch Kissick?

@WardCarroll 3 жыл бұрын

@@bobstephenson4391 Yes. (Butch better than Flex.)

@Spike_au 3 жыл бұрын

Glad to see this channel growing. Probably the best, most well articulated, least self absorbed, no bull stories and informative videos from an ex aviator on you tube. Keep the content coming!

@anthonysaponaro6318 3 жыл бұрын

One of the very best and informative on the tube period. Full stop !

@SimDeck 2 жыл бұрын

Can't stand Mover. Self absorbed beyond belief.

@jaazielgarcia3938 Жыл бұрын

Smooch is awesome .. I also recommend the 10 percent true podcast :D

@mikehiggins104 2 жыл бұрын

Ward, great, as always. One slight change. I was at VX-4 with Hank, running his Hornet Tactics Development shop. They were so new we still were flying with beta flight control software (didn’t yet understand transonic flight-another story). Hank was flying Pt Mugu to Miramar, rainy day. Had a planing link failure on takeoff. At that time, there were no indications to the pilot. The cause was the brakes hadn’t completely stopped tire rotation when the gear retracted. The forces exerted bent the planing link. Once gear down at Miramar, that gear was now toed in 18 degrees, but he didn’t know. Once he lost rudder effectiveness (about 80knots) the misalignment took charge and he started doing 360’s. It’s here that old habits and new airplanes bit Hank. As a Phantom and Tomcat guy, we flew low CG lead sleds. Prevailing philosophy was “leaving the runway, ride it out unless you were gonna hit something”. The Hornet sits higher, on more narrow gear, and is much more tippy. Had we thought it out in advance, he would have been ready to eject leaving the runway. And maybe alive today. Alas, at VX-4, we didn’t figure this out in time for Hank. Cheers, Sluggo

@WardCarroll 2 жыл бұрын

Good gouge, Sluggo. Thanks.

@mikehiggins104 2 жыл бұрын

To clear up another point about the final bit of Hank’s death… When the Hornet left the runway, 90 degrees to direction of travel, the main and nose gear dug into the mud. The airplane then stood up on one wingtip and the radome, and just stopped, perfectly vertical. Then, the radome broke off sideways. This pulled the canopy jettison cable, which popped the canopy. Hank didn’t pull it, and the safety report found it still stowed. The plane then slowly fell on its top. Hank’s neck was broken in the impact, high (not sure of the level). It’s true his head was in muddy water, but couldn’t have lived with the spinal injury anyway. Hope this helps. TINS, Sluggo

@madaxe606 3 жыл бұрын

Really, really appreciate the no-bull, no-ego breakdown of these events. Very obvious that you are a quality instructor who understands how ro make complex ideas understandable to a lay audience. Thank you!

@andrewreinacher8679 3 жыл бұрын

I was working at the base comm center at RAF Mildenhall UK on that day when Operation El Dorado Canyon was launched. I actually notified the base Command Post and the Wing Commander that we had received the launch order for the mission itself. Mildenhall supported the mission with in air refueling of the F-111's and air reconnaissance from the SR-71 Black Bird. My shift crew and I all received the Air Force Commendation Medal for our participation that day! That was the proudest day of my Air Force career.

@BigTrain175 3 жыл бұрын

I was a shift supervisor at the base commcenter at RAF Chicksands back then, but it was my day off. Didn't know anything had happened until the next day. When I arrived at the base main gate there were SPs in full combat gear and carrying automatic weapons.

@MattH-wg7ou 3 жыл бұрын

My dad was a weapons loader and loaded and or pulled pins/armed the bombs on the F111s that participated in El Dorado Canyon. He hasnt told me all the details.

@curtm3010 2 жыл бұрын

I clearly recall the SR-71 pass for recon on the SPS-48 on BIDDLE. We huddled around the scope and got 3 blips during the transit....and that was about a 400 mil track within out view.

@puterbac 2 жыл бұрын

I was in HS and remember France and Spain refused overflight rights which caused multiple refueling to get there and back. Do you think the additional hours flying time contributed to the lost F111? Was the French building “accidentally” hit?

@MattH-wg7ou 2 жыл бұрын

@@puterbac my 3rd hand hearsay knowledge of it was that the extra hours and nav/ins drift(?) could have contributed to the loss.

@kiwidiesel 3 жыл бұрын

That was a great listen thanks Ward. That tone for lock on would have to be one of the most chilling sounds I've ever heard, no mistaking the intent in the sound.

@billscott356 3 жыл бұрын

Once again, Ward, great analysis. I recall both of these incidents through the "right now" media. Through time you've been able to put out a great description of the events and describe how nuanced they are/were. Absolutely wonderful analysis! I appreciate that!

@MrJules2U 2 жыл бұрын

This is the type of analytical info that most people don't get to see. Really interesting to watch, and graciously narrated. Thankyou Ward.

@sc1784 3 жыл бұрын

Great explanation of those two events. I have watched the tapes before, but getting the play-by-play made it understandable. Nice job Ward.

@tscott6843 3 жыл бұрын

Former Marine (20 year) avionics guy here. I was in the Corps when both of these incidents occurred, so I can be pretty objective. Great episode. I really like that you tell the good and the bad in the episodes I’ve seen thus far. I subscribed and rang the bell (rare for me).

@jhmcglynn 3 жыл бұрын

What? A Former Marine? I joined a flying club in Bridgeport Connecticut in 1990 that was run by an elderly retired Korean War era Marine Corsair pilot. I told him I “My uncle Bob is an ex-marine”. He said, “Son, there are no ex-Marines. Once a Marine, always a Marine”. I never made that mistake again.

@desertodavid 2 жыл бұрын

@@jhmcglynn my thoughts exactly. I'm also a retired Marine who served in the Avionics community. I can't believe that any career Marine from my Leatherneck era (1976-1997) would refer to themselves as anything but a Marine.

@just_one_opinion 2 жыл бұрын

Everybody says those kinds of ra ra cliche's. I joined during Desert Shield into armor (recruiter sgt Schwartz) lied and said combat arms is armor. I was a dumb kid who believed all Marines had honor. I spent 4 years active and 4 reserve in the Combat Engineers mos1371. Got to see the world though, Subic bay after Pinatubo blew, Okinawa and we even had a hand in 94 in Bosnia and Somalia with GW battlegroup on a med float. Older you get more you realize all the "actions" were sorry ass posturing's by undisciplined disgusting civilian garbage leaders playing with our guys' lives. Just to make some shekkels by special interests in the next election. That bitch over, Semper Fidelis....Always Faithfull to my brothers and sisters.

@chrisgrable5319 3 жыл бұрын

Two great stories Ward. Have been hearing ABOUT these engagements for years but have never heard either story start to finish! Thanks!

@jamierife7789 2 жыл бұрын

Wow, I've watched and listened to the video/audio of the January 1989 incident many, many times, and never knew before now what a clusterfark it really was. Thanks for the insight and analysis, Ward!

@clemrod3273 3 жыл бұрын

I've watched this video several times, never had it explained like you did. Thank you enjoyed it very much!

@WardCarroll 3 жыл бұрын

Thanks for watching, Robert.

@clemrod3273 3 жыл бұрын

@@WardCarroll I served on USS Saratoga was a MR2. Machinery Repairman. Did a med cruise in 92.

@jameshisself9324 3 жыл бұрын

Well presented, and I appreciate your candor in describing the less than favorable aspects of the 2nd encounter.

@WardCarroll 3 жыл бұрын

Thanks, James. Appreciate the support.

@The_Tau Жыл бұрын

@@WardCarroll Hey Carroll, great explanation, but could you clarify how could only 1 sparrow be guided at one time? I thought they only require CW to illuminate the target as they are SARH, so how could 2 missiles interfere with each other? As you also try to fly DCS, you may notice that in DCS you can happily guide 2 AIM7s at the same time. Is that wrong? Or was there an upgrade to radar or something? Thanks

@dukeofearl4117 2 жыл бұрын

Ward, thanks for the great stories. I’m a former AQ, then worked as a software development engineer for Grumman on the A6E, EA6-B and the F14. My career was amazing. I’m a retired guitar player now.

@biscoloco 3 жыл бұрын

This is awesome, love the break down. Listened to this engagement multiple times. This is the first time I’ve had another flier discuss the incident.

@burnedmyfoot 3 жыл бұрын

Thank you for this video. I enjoy watching you and C.W. Lemoine go over footage and give us an informed observation of the situation.

@Gort-mq6sg 3 жыл бұрын

Yeah, Mover has good content as well.

@hectorcontreras7216 3 жыл бұрын

I’m a military history enthusiast and glad to hear from someone who has firsthand account or has walked in the shoes of a naval pilot !!! THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE!!!

@roberthedman894 2 жыл бұрын

I was a member of VF-41 from 1988-1991. I really have been enjoying the videos on your channel! Thank you for all you have done and continue to do!

@TheRandseed 2 жыл бұрын

Ward, I've watched this for literally 25 or 30 years. You just explained a lot of stuff that I either didn't know or that I completely messed up. Keep flyin', man.

@dl6519 3 жыл бұрын

Despite having watched videos on these incidents many times before, I learned multiple big things about what was going on from this video that I was completely unaware of, one of which is this: If you want something explained clearly and thoroughly and succinctly, ask a RIO to explain it! AWESOME video, subscribed!

@Darrylshaw 3 жыл бұрын

I am so glad I found this channel. I cherish my ONE carrier landing (helo) as a journalist passenger aboard USS Constellation in 1986. Listening to Ward and Dale Snodgrass is an education in itself. I have been doing standup comedy for 10 years and nothing is more fun than sitting at a table after a few drinks and hearing stories from your peers. You think you know it all but hear something you didn't know every time. It's that way watching these videos. THANK YOU Commander Carroll.

@morganottlii2390 Жыл бұрын

Thank You for your service!👍🇱🇷💯

@tylerbrass4002 3 жыл бұрын

These are great. I have been looking through your library of videos, and really appreciate your insight into these incidents, so many of them I have heard about, and seen the footage, or even recreations, but you really get into it, and explain exactly what happened down to the details. Your perspective, and wealth of knowledge is much appreciated.

@danmiller7079 2 жыл бұрын

Hello Ward, was examining the vast world of KZfaq when I found your channel. As a Veteran of the United States Marine Corps during the mid seventies, I had the honor of serving aboard two war ships; U.S.S. New Orleans (LPH 11) and the U.S.S. Duluth (LPD 6). Even though I was a grunt Marine, I still love military aircraft especially F-4’s, CH-46 & 53’s, AH-1 Cobra’s, and OV-10 Bronco’s. When we were on the New Orleans, we even had a couple of AV-8 Harriers. What a treat. Also had the “pleasure” of watching an SR-71 take off from Kadena AFB, Okinawa. Have a great night, Sir. Also subscribed.

@just_one_opinion 2 жыл бұрын

Naha Radio aka the stage....Semper fi!

@georgeo929 3 жыл бұрын

I’m so glad that I stumbled onto one of your videos. I’m former navy and in a navy family and I’m old enough to know who VF84 was and I also know that VF41 was their sister squadron. I’m now subscribed on your channel. Keep the stories coming I enjoy watching you tell them from a much different perspective.

@DSherman911 3 жыл бұрын

I can’t begin to tell you how much I enjoy listening to you talk about the Navy and the Tomcat. Top Gun was such a huge influence on me at a young age. It’s awesome to hear about all of the intricacies and details that you experienced. More Tom Cat and aviation videos, please. Thank you.

@guaporeturns9472 3 жыл бұрын

If you want badass Tomcat stories you should research Iran’s Tomcat use. Iranian Tomcats were involved in much more combat than American ones. Maybe you already know this.

@DSToNe19and83 3 жыл бұрын

@@guaporeturns9472 hey, if I was them I’d make good use of those bad boys too!

@guaporeturns9472 3 жыл бұрын

@@DSToNe19and83 they have been kicking ass with them for years.. not sure if they are still in service or not .. getting kinda old and they have to fabricate all their own spare parts these days.

@mxcollin95 3 жыл бұрын

I love this channel! Keep up the great work Ward! I’ve watched this engagement several times and after you explained it I never would’ve guessed all that was going on...super interesting. 👍

@ame01 2 жыл бұрын

I was glued to my seat for both. Thanks for the stories. They’re riveting.

@xenozombie6200 3 жыл бұрын

I've read a lot about the Gulf of Sidra incidents, but this is a whole new perspective. Thank you.

@WardCarroll 3 жыл бұрын

You’re welcome, Xeno! Thanks for watching!

@CallsignJoNay 3 жыл бұрын

That's really interesting about the TWS anomaly. I didn't know about that. Great breakdown, thanks for the video. Keep the Tomcat content coming!

@solothkaroftrinsic3852 2 жыл бұрын

Thank you for taking your time to explain this in such a detail and eloquence.

@jamesjohnsen2021 Жыл бұрын

I found you on KZfaq and now I see value in it. This particular video strikes close to home with me. You and I were both on the JFK at the same time. I was in VS-22 and flew a com relay mission while all of this was happening. Totally oblivious to what was going on not too far from where we were flying our racetrack and making sure the A-6s could communicate back to our ship. We received a briefing in the S-3 ready room from the four crew members involved. It was enlightening to non-fighter aircrew. I still have my copy of the gun camera video and soundtrack too.

@williamhcollins2010 3 жыл бұрын

Hey Ward, I was an S-3 NFO during this time on a PACFLEET carrier at the time. Had a buddy on on staff whom told me the whole story as well. Thanks for going into great detail!

@WardCarroll 3 жыл бұрын

You're welcome, William.

@greggutting1796 3 жыл бұрын

Fast Eagle 102, from the 1981 incident, is on static display at the Midland Army Air Field Museum, Midland, TX. The plane captain at the time of the incident, J.R. Baxter, is one of a group of flight deck veterans who did a cosmetic restoration a few years ago. Dave Venlet, along with some folks from the Nimitz, attended the unveiling after the restoration.

@ajchenmph 3 жыл бұрын

Trivia: at the time of the shootdown, 102 had the XO's name painted on it (he subsequently became skipper of VF-41), who became my NROTC CO in 1992-1993. He likes to say the shootdown happened 5 minutes too early, as he was inbound to relieve Kleeman and "Music". I've kept in touch with him over the years, and was able to catch up with him about 5 years ago while I was TDY/TAD in his area, where he told me exactly what happened with Kleeman's mishap (I've since forgotten all the details). He is still doing pretty well overall (had an email exchange with him about 6 months before the pandemic).

@greggutting1796 3 жыл бұрын

She has Cdr Hank Kleeman as pilot and Lt Dave Venlet as RIO. Names painted along bottom of cockpit. I have a photo, but don’t know how to post it.

@ajchenmph 3 жыл бұрын

Makes sense since they were flying it that day. But carrier tradition is that the CAG has his/her name painted on 100, the squadron CO on 101, and the squadron XO on 102. And then you fly whatever bird you're assigned that day, not necessarily "your" jet.

@get2dachoppa249 3 жыл бұрын

Wasn't Kleemans accident something to do with hydroplaning on landing, the aircraft departed the runway, & flipped upside down?

@ajchenmph 3 жыл бұрын

@@get2dachoppa249 - yep, combined with a gear malfunction or something else that wasn't right with the jet. Again, forget the details.

@davidrobins4025 3 жыл бұрын

I thoroughly enjoyed and appreciated your description of this incident. Your complete understanding of how things go and how they are supposed to go brings clarity to the account.

@frostyrobot7689 3 жыл бұрын

This is absolute gold, Ward. I'm old enough to remember this at the time and that there was apparently some controversy over the shootdown. Then, a good few years ago now, I saw the tape, and while some of it was obscure, I obviously trusted that the lead Rio's calls on the bogey's movements were watertight. Your comprehensive and dry-witted analysis certainly helped clear a lot of that up. Thanks.

@Amar7605 3 жыл бұрын

Wow... a very sobering analysis of the 1989 incident. For a lifelong Tomcat and military aviation buff, your story was a splash of cold water for me. Nevertheless, I really appreciate you telling us because it was very educational and thought-provoking. Thank you, Sir!

@malleygz3991 3 жыл бұрын

Same for me, but I serve in the military and specifically the Navy, so I'm not at all surprised by the facts of what actually happened. I'm sure the investigations into what happened, and associated missteps helped to refocus training, procedures, and operations.

@shengyi1701 3 жыл бұрын

They got too excited but good thing that the Libyans were not up for it as well!

@hangtime_31 3 жыл бұрын

It's one thing to watch the news about these incidents on TV right after the events and quite another to have an experienced person such as yourself take the time to calmly and professionally break them down and explain the what and why of them. I found this very educational. Thank you for you service.

@MaxSterling01 3 жыл бұрын

I remember that CNN did a broadcast when they got the video. Breaking story and all that. They didn't preview the tape before putting it on air. First round you got the "I don't have a F^&king lock" next time it was bleeped. LMAO.

@CorazonDeCristoCano 3 жыл бұрын

I love the additional insight you provide here. Kudos for translating the jargon along the way too.

@shaunmcdaniels2460 10 ай бұрын

Thank you for the video!!!! I like how you break it down step by step!!! It makes it easy to follow and understand what is happening…. Thanks again!!

@burprobrox9134 3 жыл бұрын

Wow glad I found this channel. Growing up in the 80s the Tomcat was my obsession haha. Watched Top Gun a trillion times, had a ton of models, no chance of being a pilot due to some health issues, but always loved it. I’m really happy to hear your stories, thanks for sharing.

@andyfisher1911 3 жыл бұрын

Ward once again a great explanation of the two incidents, especially the second one, which l always thought was very confusing! Now l’m very clear of what actually happened. Thank you, keep up the great work!

@WardCarroll 3 жыл бұрын

Thanks, Andy!

@geoffreytudor5674 2 жыл бұрын

Great analysis of a (remembered) historical incident. I liked the stop-go vocal record and analysis; you can really feel Leo ramping up the tension (hey, I'd have been hyperventilating). Always good to have a better grasp of the details, and you do a fine job.

@aceshigh6499 3 жыл бұрын

Thank you for posting this video. Awesome analysis!!

@arnie24070127 2 жыл бұрын

Hey Mooch, as a student of combat in general (given my previous profession) it is absolutely fascinating listening to you break these down. I know you're a tomcat guy but could you do more like this? Talking about TTP, theoretical to practical application there of, and engagements in general. Doesn't have to be modern. Sort of a Mooch's dogfights show.

@trumanhw 7 ай бұрын

Yup ... I didn't realize that the RIO not only manages but controls (makes the decisions) re: weapons.

@hogie9 2 жыл бұрын

I loved this one Ward! Super interesting accounts of both incidents

@larryblanchard7352 2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the stories Ward. You have brought my binge watching KZfaq to a whole new level.

@zekehavok 3 жыл бұрын

Love the detail you provide and the context. Thank You Sir!

@jimvincenti2324 2 жыл бұрын

Thank you for the real time recollections of these combat missions and thank you for your service to this great country of ours!

@bghammock 3 жыл бұрын

Oooo! I've always wondered about the details of this incident but never got motivated enough to look into it. '86 incident that is. Thanks Ward! This is becoming one of my favorite channels.

@WardCarroll 3 жыл бұрын

Thanks for watching, Barry! Lots of episodes in the hopper, so stay tuned! And tell your friends!

@faabound 3 жыл бұрын

We lost Paul Lorence and Fernando Ribas Dominicci in the Libya raid in 86. The raid itself was Operation El Dorado Canyon.

@WardCarroll 3 жыл бұрын

@@faabound RIP, mates.

@bghammock 3 жыл бұрын

@@faabound Thanks. Reading about that on airforcemag.com. The only thing I knew about it before was that was the first time I really heard about the F-111 and remember thinking it was a MEAN looking aircraft.

@Rich206L 3 жыл бұрын

Ward, I just discovered your channel recently and I quite impressed with the way you deliver these events, as well how well you have done your research. I have always given you a thumbs up, but today, you've earned a new subscriber. Continue the great work! Rich

@andresdandrea5259 3 жыл бұрын

Great war stories. I love the context you provide with each video. Keep them coming. Cheers 😉👍

@12Agonzo 3 жыл бұрын

Clemann didn't die taxiing. He was landing at Miramar during the early days of the F/A-18. He was CO of VXE-9 out of Mugu at the time and doing Evals of the Hornet. There was an issue with the Hornet's landing gear that this accident identified. The rain puddled on 24R and the gear problem caused the plane to get sideways, it hit the mud on the edge of the runway, the right main mount dug into the mud and it flipped over. The accident actually broke his neck. I worked for COMFIT, RADM NEWMAN, who owned Miramar at the time and had to run over and pick him up at the dentist and to get him over to the recovery of this Class A accident. A sad and unfortunate thing that happened to a great aviator.

@antiskell 3 жыл бұрын

Only a thumbs up for the info ... rip that dude

@1truemoose 3 жыл бұрын

Thank you for the information.

@Andrew-13579 3 жыл бұрын

So where does the story come from that he died taxiing? Disappointing that it gets told wrong. I’m not blaming the channel author, here; because maybe he got bad info, too. Too bad CDR Kleemann didn’t pull the ejection handle and get out when it went sideways. But maybe he already knew he was going to flip and didn’t want to be shot into the mud.

@LuvBorderCollies 2 жыл бұрын

@@Andrew-13579 "The Rumor Mill"

@vtwinbuilder3129 2 жыл бұрын

His name is spelled “Kleeman” though....

@tomusmc1993 3 жыл бұрын

Holy smokes what a great inside contextual walk through. As a former active duty Marine, I well know reality differs from media version or civilian version. Awesome...

@kevinprocaccino8080 2 жыл бұрын

Outstanding episode...I'm hooked on your channel. Thank you for sharing your expertise and real life experiences.

@uwesieg7878 3 жыл бұрын

Really appreciate the careful explained details regarding this & other episodes.

@ibbylancaster8981 3 жыл бұрын

Very cool video. I remember both incidents. I’m sure many others would love to hear some good boat stories. Maybe a Tomcat incident that scared the snot out of you. Close calls. Funny things. What your deployments were like , things like that. I really do enjoy the Tomcat stories as well. Thank you for it all. 🇺🇸

@leonardmoore2833 3 жыл бұрын

Ward, really enjoy these post mortems. I was a RIO with VF-51 Screaming Eagles back in the early 90's. I knew about the pilot's switchology issue, but didn't know about the TWS delay causing the incorrect interpretation of the bogey's vector until I saw your video. Very cool. An idea for a sea story: Recall that Bug Roach had a Mae West parachute when he ejected from an A-4 back around '93. He was an LSO legend around Miramar, and his was a tragic loss. I'd like to hear more about how that happened. Thanks and keep up the good work! Lenny "Lipo" Moore.

@terrythornock6468 3 жыл бұрын

WOWSA KAPOWSA!!!!! What an awesome briefing!!!! Thank you so much for the wonderful presentation yet again!!!!

@rayglaze4720 2 жыл бұрын

Thank you sir! Explained very well. Love your channel!

@nickclark9240 3 жыл бұрын

Hi Ward. I love your channel, great information always. I have a question on the Libyan ops. In 1979, I was the enlisted sensor operator on the S-3A Viking. My squadron (VS-33, North Island) was deployed aboard the USS America. Many of our S-3 sorties in the Med were into the Gulf of Sidra to draw out the Libyan fighters. In subsequent engagements when the Libyans were shot down, were any S-3s used as decoys? I can't begin to tell you how exciting it was being a 20 year old kid and being involved with such historic events. I later went on to become a WSO in RF-4Cs and F-111Fs, with the Statue of Libya Raiders (48th TFW) at RAF Lakenheath. Thanks for all you do, and thank you for your service!!!

@kilianortmann9979 3 жыл бұрын

Thank you so much for this video, since I heard of this incident, I tried to wrap my head around this. I've watched it on the history channel and looked at diagrams and public reports and the geometry never quite made sense to me. Your insight let me finally lay this puzzle to rest, sometimes highly intelligent people can be their own worst enemy

@WardCarroll 3 жыл бұрын

Thanks, Killian.

@terransea4209 2 жыл бұрын

Keep up the good work! love hearing these awesome stories with such detailed knowledge. It makes the stories so much better and immersive and entertaining!

@bbb8182 Жыл бұрын

So far my favorite story told here Ward and that's saying something! I admire your dedication to telling the true story as best you can. I really admire you for that. Thanks for serving our country too!

@swspph 3 жыл бұрын

Just found you and I love It. Been a Tomcat fan for over twenty years.

@conatives2 3 жыл бұрын

Great stuff! As a Naval Aircrewman (S3 Viking) on cruise in VS-37 (1989), I heard this play out on cruise... I never heard this breakdown until today! I always wondered about the “weapons yellow” call from AB, and subsequent launch. Super informative, super interesting!

@WardCarroll 3 жыл бұрын

Thanks, Stephen.

@w7nw 2 жыл бұрын

I was a student at the Air Command and Staff College in the fall of 1981 and we had the crew come and give a classified briefing to our class.Really enjoying your channel

@grovepeate3316 Жыл бұрын

You have really built this channel up ,always enjoy your videos.

@WardCarroll Жыл бұрын

Thank you very much!

@CMIKAEL1172 3 жыл бұрын

Awesome video - learned a lot. I like to study MiG-killers. The F-4 and F-14 are my two favorite fighters in history. Look forward to more videos.

@DesertPunks 3 жыл бұрын

Always appreciative of the content you give us, I never knew there was a first incident involving VF-41 and SU-22s.

@juancho420 3 жыл бұрын

Yup the previous day they were going up against MiG-25s.

@mag8man 3 жыл бұрын

Many thanks for your posts. It’s fascinating to get the story from the inside.

@PacificAirPhoto1 3 жыл бұрын

This is an entirely different perspective on the 2nd GoS incident, one I’d never heard. Thank you so much for providing such expert analysis and clarity!

@Geneusmc 2 жыл бұрын

Mooch, I really enjoy your channel. I served in the Marines from 68-72 as a Sergeant working on F4-J AWG-10 Fire Control Systems, my last squadron was VMFA-232 before their last tour in Vietnam. I loved what I did, but I am sorry to say not every Marine did. We had a hanger queen with a down radar that no one could fix for nearly 3-months. I had heard it had been sabotaged by a short timer so I decided I will troubleshoot the radar around the clock until it was repaired. The Westinghouse tech rep and I worked on this bird for days. Finally, as we scoped every signal in and out of the system, I discovered that one side of a connector in the receiver tracking logic had a good signal, but on the other side of the connector it did not. The SOB that sabotaged the system had reversed two coax cables. He is fortunate I did not know his name else I would have contacted the CID long ago. The radar came up, we up’d the aircraft, and she flew a sortie the very next day. Whoever you are I hope you see this post, you failed, that aircraft flew many missions after you tried to sabotage it. I have just one question for you - WHY?

@jawarapittman6889 Жыл бұрын

You may never know, someone will out that guy.

@jimpalmer1969 3 жыл бұрын

I've heard this story from another pilot who was flying off the Kennedy that day. My brother was an A-6 driver in VMA-533. His part of the mission was to act as the bait to trick the Migs to be sortied. He showed me the full air camera video that you showed clips from. He was very critical of this whole escapade. My older brother was an AQ in VA-165 (USS Constellation), my younger brother was a pilot in VMA-533 (USS Kennedy) and I was an ADJ in VA-52 (USS Kitty Hawk). Funny how we all wound up in A-6s. Thanks for the detail. It filled in the blanks. I will share this with my brother.

@WardCarroll 3 жыл бұрын

Thanks, Jim. Both my father and father in law flew A-6s too.

@Stubbies2003 3 жыл бұрын

Very nice video. I've never seen it covered in this level of detail before (mainly the 89 incident) and blunt honesty is refreshing to hear.

@OneCupOfCoffee204 3 жыл бұрын

Another great video. I have seen the videos more than a few times and never understood them fully until right now. This video may have turned out to be a great future training video for new pilots.

@lancet.346 3 жыл бұрын

I can tell I will be watching this video several times-fascinating stuff.

@WardCarroll 3 жыл бұрын

Appreciate it, Lance.

@Void304 3 жыл бұрын

I've seen this footage several times, and I understand enough brevity that I've been able to follow along, but I've never had someone who really understands what happened walk me through it before. Thanks.

@jimbertelson9309 2 жыл бұрын

I quite appreciate the granularity of your content. Good work, thank you for your service.

@ronnieeubanks6559 3 жыл бұрын

Gotta say these stories of historical events are awesome to hear. Thank for your service sir! 🙏

@johnemmert9012 3 жыл бұрын

Interested to see that the fighter community is way more self critical than Top Gun would have you believe.

@Mugdorna 3 жыл бұрын

Having read a few books on the program. Criticism and analysis of aerial actions certainly appears to be 2nd nature to those guys

@thethirdman225 2 жыл бұрын

No, I think it's more than what the public - particularly the anoraks - would have you believe. Yes: fighter pilots are an aggressive lot but they're not just idiots, whanging around the sky shooting things down at random. I'll always remember Pierre Clostermann's criteria for judging the German _Experten_ he came up against: _"Both prudent and sure of themselves..."_

@rockriver2652 2 жыл бұрын

Top Gun and The Right Stuff are caricatures of the real thing. (But I still enjoy the movies immensely!)

@sixstringedthing 2 жыл бұрын

I guess the high-fives and back slaps are to be expected in what was basically a recruitment/PR tool. Good to know that things aren't quite so gung-ho in real life.

@OpenCarryUSMC 2 жыл бұрын

There are Top Gun the movie times as well. Can't remember how many times we helped the pilots up the Hornet ladder and the first thing they did was gang load the O2 to clear their hang overs. Or the time the skipper was drunk as a skunk on a street in Olongapo while half the pilots and RIO's (equally as inebriated) surround him less than 8 hours before the flight schedule began. Yeah, they'll analyze the hell out of an incident but they still pull stupid shit.

@Bushy_P 3 жыл бұрын

Love the Synopsis of the incidents from a RIO of that time. Always nice to hear what the community thought.

@rickcimino5483 3 жыл бұрын

I don't know how I found this channel but I really like all the detail WC goes into. Great content.

@Goffas_and_gumpys 3 жыл бұрын

A great insight into the mechanics of the contact. You made it very clear the situation of the pilot stating he didn't have tone and helped me to understand what was happening inside the aircraft. I have watched a few of your vids and am happy to say I am now subbed. Great content. Thank you.

@richardgeorge179 3 жыл бұрын

Was onboard USS Nimitz as a jet mech with the Black Aces when the 1981 shoot down happened. I was assigned to the jet shop (AIMD)so I also worked on engines for the Jolly Rogers too.

@acsxfan1 3 жыл бұрын

Richard -- another Nimitz sailor .. worked up in weather shop -- do you remember the GQ they called after this happened?

@richardgeorge179 3 жыл бұрын

@@acsxfan1 Yes I do because the Chief told us to "Tie down the coffee pot "and if we got the right story the aircraft were friendly from the other carrier that was operating with us.

@acsxfan1 3 жыл бұрын

@@richardgeorge179 Thats the way I understood it as well . I think it might have been Saratoga ..

@richcook2007 2 жыл бұрын

I was in S-2 when this happened.

@toddf9321 2 жыл бұрын

@@acsxfan1 USS Forrestal CV-59 at your service! Took station to the South while Nimitz steamed to the Northwest at an unbelievable speed. We stayed at GQ for 12 hours (Battle messing has to be experienced!).

@WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot290 2 жыл бұрын

Never once heard this version of the incident. THANK YOU FOR TELLING US THE TRUTH!

@jcarne1015 2 жыл бұрын

Another good video and analysis. Thank you.

@Arvind-fs5zh Ай бұрын

Super commentary of the entire incident. Great stuff👏

@migorigs8148 3 жыл бұрын

Hearing a so detailed analysis is music for my ears. Keep it up

@budone7449 3 жыл бұрын

Amazing explanation of what actually happened!!! Thank you also for serving our country!!!! We The people would not be...without your service!!!! God bless you!!

@landrum3893 2 жыл бұрын

Excellent. BEST analysis of the Sidra incidents Ive ever heard. I was aboard the Kennedy for the '89 incident as an AT for VA-75 an A-6E squadron. It was a surreal time. Over the 1MC, we heard them announce scramble 2 more F-14s (Ive forgotten the exact words) so there were the 2 F-14s already out there and 2 more on the way but it all happened so fast. In the following hours and days we were all thinking that there could be further action of some kind. Anyway, very interesting and revealing analysis. Facepalms and funny banter between the pilot and RIO. Thank you, sir