Edit: hey all, a few things to note: I wanna apologize for the EXTREMELY annoying squeaking noise in the background, my chair was feeling nefarious and I didn't notice at the time. This took me like 2 and a half hours to record and I couldn't fix it in post, so just uh, I dunno, listen on bad speakers or lower the volume, I'll fix it by the next video (probably). I also wanna add that Corrupted Ancients are more noticeable than regular Healers, as ranged units stick near them, so they don't just wander out of the radius. Even so, its still like 2 enemies at any given time and they're still flawed. I also forgot to mention how Arbitration Drones nullify CC, and I think it would be totally fair to allow enemies under their effect to be CCable. Last thing is about Nullifiers, where a lot of people mentioned that their shield regenerating causes a lot of problems, so they could be changed to lose their bubble permanently when it breaks to avoid this. To keep the shield drone relevant, maybe it could do like a radial electric proc or somesuch when destroyed, but that's just an idea. A lot of people also disagree with my idea of changing defense, and while I still stand by it, I think that there could be a compromise: killing Eximus reducing the timer by 5 seconds. Considering that they have Overguard CC won't stop them from getting close enough to be killed, so I think that could be a solid way to strike a balance. Also, I want to note that Inaros is a very CC focused character even post rework. I didn't count him as a lot of those elements are carried over from his older kit, but in the name of fairness I think it is noteworthy that they did keep this part of Inaros' identity intact (which funnily enough makes the hesitancy to rework Loki even more confusing). Lastly, to all of the people who are simply saying I have a skill issue or somesuch, please actually listen to my argument on this. This game is easy as shit, I am well aware of that fact, I am not proposing changes with the goal of making the game easier. I find it sad that a once rich playstyle has been abandoned and the frames that use it consequently crippled, and I want to allow people to play the game in ways other than damage spam. If you like spamming damage, that's fine, but it doesn't mean the problem does not exist.

i took a shot every time he said overguard or crowd control, and drank so much i integer overflowed into being sober

I simply need to mention this lovely interaction. If you pop a nully bubble, and drag him into a vauban vortex, he'll be able to recast his bubble while actively being stuck in the vortex, thereby cancelling the ability and *freeing everyone affected, not just himself*

Nullifiers just need to be changed to how they used to function: disable powers when you enter inside but they can't outright 'pop' abilities by touching them with their bubble. A nullifier shouldn't instantly pop an atlas wall, limbos cataclysm, or frosts snow globe as examples. Instead, all enemies inside the bubble will be immune to abilities as it should be, allowing a nullifier and any enemies inside to walk inside cataclysm unfazed until their bubble is popped, in which they would be frozen by stasis. If they were an eximus they would also need to have their overugard removed. Easy fix and avoids lore breaking things like nullifiers destroying pockets of alternate realities and somehow nullifying infestation.

DE relying on removing gameplay tools and options in the name of "difficulty" is getting more and more concerning. The game isn't hard when I can still just cheese everything. It's just more tedious and narrow in gameplay.

Saw the thumbnail and thought it said “He Doesn’t Understand Overguard” and was offended that you thought the Ancient didn’t understand Overguard. I’m sure Mr Ancient would love this video as much as the rest of us do.

"schizo eximus units" has to be my favorite idea of all time

They should add some form of "brittle" enemy to the game. A tough motherfucker of a unit that "breaks" when CC'd to incentivize teams to have both CC and high damage.

I LOVE LONG FORM CONTENT, I LOVE DEEP DIVES WITH A LOT OF INTROSPECTION AND CRITICAL ANALYSIS OF VIDEOGAMES

Yareli Prime mating press will bring CC back to the game

i personally am a big fan of eximus units sometimes just nuking my health because the toxin effect refuses to show up for a solid 20 seconds

Fun Fact: Mag's Magnetize will still form around a unit with over guard, but they won't be immobilized, so they can drag other mobs into the bubble for you as they run around.

I liked the idea of Void damage (And operators) being a focus of taking down overguard It sorta felt like a design intention that Zenurik's Void Drag slowed eximus down, as well as operators doing bonus damage to overguard in the patch overguard was introduced

I remember seeing the Eximus rework and thinking, "huh, that looks interesting" And then getting curbstomped by overguarded blitz and toxic eximus that were immune to everything Love these video-essay form videos, keep up the great work man!

I actually really like the idea of void slinging into overguard to instantly break it, especially since Kuva Guardians exist so there's a precedent to do exactly that already (kinda surprised you didn't mention them tbh). I think a good thing to go along with that would be to overhaul amps to be moddable or something similar as a way of really incentivizing fluid switches from frame to flesh, especially with how much DE is pushing operator gameplay in recent years

Just hoping that someone at DE actually sees this (probably not)

A reasonable and critical video without any dev bashing? The Warframe subreddit is rapidly approaching your location.

I find the Demolisher idea good, but there is a tweak I'd argue is needed. And that's the Demolishers should have an automatic explosion when the timer ends with a set radius. If you kill the Demolisher, then it doesn't blow up, meanwhile if you control the target from getting close to the conduit so that the auto-detonation doesn't hit it. This creates 2 paths, either pour out damage to destroy them, or use CC to keep them away. Some CC would be far better then others, it would allow a more CC focused style, while not leaving a CC disabling enemy just running around. Had that happen once because of Pathfinding issues, just kinda found it running around.

Make eximus units consume 1/3 of their overguard to cast enhanced abilities (With a cool draining animation on the health bar during their cast windup). Once overguard has been expended, the time between casts is increased or their power/range is reduced to current levels or lower.

Specifically instructed to wait until the video is over before commenting, commenting in defiance at the 1:00 mark

Learning I could roll through the Arson eximus fire wave was a life changing event.

Reduced CC effectiveness like what happened with Sentients in Scarlet Spear is what I would really prefer. It wasn't an all or nothing situation, it punished mindlessly CCing the entire map but was still effective for slowing down the elite enemies briefly making them easier to deal with. CC frames like Limbo weren't made useless, it just forced them to play smarter and it reduced how disruptive they were to the rest of the squad/mission flow.

18:02 My footage of this was not trying to die, and the rest of my team mates were being swatted like flies every 2 seconds, while not being able to see them, not being able to see the boss, while I was gradually running out of ammo on my Strun Prime, while my energy was being drained by the Liminus

Yes You are right, I agree finally someone mentioned the circuit defense mission. its honestly completely ridiculous. So far I was able to complete the lvl 9999 defense mission on duviri with : Frost, nekros and revenant because 1 - frost has snow globe and can slow down overguarded enemies with ice then kill the priority targets, 2 - revenant and nekros are able to grab the agro of overguarded enemies thanks to thralls and necromancy respectively. But for a lot of other warframes it is straight up impossible, I tried doing it with chroma but the only thing he has is effigy roar which can stun regular enemies allowing you to attack overguarded enemies but the roar does not last long enough and effigy can survive for up to 5 seconds while vex armor is buffing it. Basically, overguard is cool and all but it is not being used in moderation at the moment and some warframes have absolutely nothing they can do against it making some content in the game impossible for them.

I'm just surprised that amps can't be modded to this day

As someone who has also played this game for 10 years, I really want to thank you for being the voice of reason (as I see it) in the community. I wholeheartedly believe that this game is just this close to getting it right, but without proper communication with the community (and honestly who can blame DE for not wanting to touch the warframe subredit), changes are relatively slow. But they do happen, which is so much more than I can say about other games. And about the video, I hold the belief that Trib makes some of the greatest warframe content on the platform, and it's gonna be very hard to rise up to his level of quality, yet here you are. From the status tierlist to the "weird status effects" and all the other vids, you're really high up there. Thanks for dedicating yourself to this game, more than most of us have, and genuinely being entertaining while also keeping it coherent. Keep it up! You're gonna go far CoolKid! (get it? The Offspring reference?.... I'm old, I know.) Edit: Grammar

Honestly, the biggest loser when Overguard first became a thing (aside from Limbo lol) was Grendel. His entire kit ceases to exist without dudes in his belly. The bolstered belligerents modifier literally turns off an entire warframe, and just not being able to vacuum up overguarded enemies felt really bad

The duviri defense with all the eximus units on the steel path portals really indeed can get kind of overwhelming to deal with, so we always have one friend on how we like to call it "Eximus Janitor" so we have more control over it and more breathing room they can really stack up in the portal SP defenses in duviri you are really going to enjoy your time

DE also doesn't understand that all I want are some dual MIGHTY SEERS

To add to the EDA with the eximus fragmented tide, I too have completed that mission. It took a squad of 4 people about 15 minutes of continuous bullet jumping and reviving to take the dude down. There were probably upwards of 20 eximus units cramped into the tiny arena and the fact we even managed on itself is a miracle.

All I know about Overguard is that it's really fun to stack 20 billion of it and never die.

imagine enemies could've gather around nullifier inside his bubble so they could move into limbo's 4th ability without being stunned

As a Limbo Main I’m not too upset by these issues because I have ways of working around it (cold procs go brrrrr) but they seriously need to give some CC abilities the ability to bypass overguard again or have reduced effectiveness on CC over no effectiveness. Or just make it work like player Overguard giving status immunity.

The operator solution is lowkey kind of genius. I would love a reason to make operators decent, even if it means making amps do a bit more damage cause i really hate operator as they are now.

That picture of Wally was pretty stimulating ngl.

I think all your complaints are pretty fair, and you actually seen to understand why they added overguard unlike most conversations I see about the topic. I think the overguard granted by healers and the hands are not really a big deal, as I kinda just see that as a way to telegraph a damage resistance buff that you can take care of, even if the enemies it is applied to dont actually have any special attacks to warrant them having overguard. It is kind of like the corpus shield drones but if their sheild recharge made enemies CC immune. Though I could see a fair argument for enemies like the healer and hand enemy not applying the CC immunity and only damage resistance which would still incentivise you to deal with them first. And I agree that they are going a little to heavy with the overguard spam. I would prefer if they pivot to different types of modifiers for creating interesting scenarios. I also think they could look into CC still having some effect on Overguard, like a % overguard strip over time from CC abilities so that they still have some use while keeping the original intent of overguard intact. I like some of the possible fixes you presented as well

40:32 for the timer. i think its less clear now than it was at launch that the timer is a built in safety net for when the demolisher bugs out, fails to path or fails to spawn. I remember it being fairly common when the gamemode first rolled out to pass the timer without seeing or finding the demo because it got lost or spawned out of bounds.

fun fact, most things are still affected by marked for deaths stun for no apparent reason

Nothing as schitzophrenic as the Warframe Iceberg video. That thing is pure gold. Wish thee was another one.

On the note of gamemodes, one thing I always think can be addressed is the reward quality & pace in missions. As it stands, Void Capture is the best for farming (most) relics and exterminate/rescue fissures are usually the most ran mission types for its speed as well as allowing damage to flourish there. (There is also some T6 fissure nodes that are quite good too) Back in the day Xini Eris and Heirachon Pluto were go to farms for all kinds of stuff but because these nodes were Interception & Excavation, it organically allowed the use of CC without feeling forced or arbitrary. By design these nodes worked well with CC, but because there isn't a huge reason to run these missions anymore, CC doesn't get to see much organic use, a great example as you've mentioned is Mirror Defense but I think doing a reward rebalance/overview of many older nodes could do justice. Even as simple as adding 2 items per rotation in interception can go a long way. Enough to compete with Void Capture? Not a chance, but enough to make the modes feel genuinely decent in today's era of Warframe. Though this example is a specific one I like to bring up.

I really like the Operator solution. The +50% damage bonus should be like, +500% (but ONLY if the damage comes from an amp or companion with Astral Bond, because I don't want Xaku to become more broken than they already are)

This comment is a placeholder, i wanted to push the Algorythm. You´re growing to be my favorite Warframe creator

Sanctuary Onslaught enemies give more effeciency when killed is a pretty decent idea, because canonically, Simaris is studying how you fight, so tactical usage of abilities to manage combat situations when brute force proves insufficient should be something he's interested in.

This discussion needed to happen. I have 5.5k hours in Warframe since late 2015. Everything this man said was a fact and I couldn't agree more with each detail. DE will either listen to these great ideas, or offer you a job. Great video.

CoolKid369 giving their non-meta-enslaved opinion on WF? You're about to sadly get jumped, kidnapped and tortured by being forced to watch KnightmareFrame putting PSF on every single frame in existence that doesn't even need it. I agree with a lot, I don't think CC is dead as well but DE sometimes really discourages it with their choices for the game, but can only hope they can learn, take notes and tweak things to not feel like a chore to deal with.. Sometimes I ask if most of them even play their game at all, I know Pablo does, but the rest?.. I don't think they do very much, Anyways, Stockholm Syndrome is back to 100%, We lose these. Also I am still mad Mirror Defense was brought back, I wanted another Void Armaggedon in the labs man, mode is a much more fun defense

i had an idea as i was watching this: a possible way to make overguard work with CC could be to let overguarded eximus take the full CC, but when you break through overguard, they "break out" and preform their special attack before going back to being CC'd. my reasoning is that this allows you to CC eximus, but you need to be ready for their attack once overguard breaks. some issues with this would be the possibility of CCing them again before they get an attack out, but that can be fixed with a simple timer or check. another issue would be implementing it into abilities that knockdown or ragdoll enemies, like Nezha's 4.

Its the weird dichotomy, where Overguard provides a Resistance to Damage (by adding eHP), a Resistance to Status (capped procs), but then just flat out negates CC. Your Fair/Unfair difficulty is somethng I've written myself. Though I used the term reductive/subtractive difficulty. Where the game removes its mechanics (randomly or otherwise) rather then promoting scenarios that require creative and complete use of the games entire toolkit. A hyperbolic example would be if a shooter simply decided you could only reload twice per level, or randomly jammed your gun to prevent you from shooting. For Helldivers I'd cite the difference between fire tornados that force you to reposition and move, cold conditions that influence your weapon choicses, vs Ion Storms disabling your strategems or the (only on high difficulties) planet modifier that cuts your 4 tools to 3. Rather then halfing soft effects, or softening hard effects (Paralyze become slow, Disarm/jam become damage debuff, Blind becomes accuracy debuff) etc. (With the weird exception of Vauban, who's 4 does transform into a slow effect, which was added but undocumented) Hard to tell much from Deep Archimedia. They got pressured for the Netracell loot tables being kind of derpy but evidently didn't want it to be overewarding (which is somewhat fair, its largely unfailable and simply a time sync for rewards and if it dropped guaranteed high end stuff arguably trivializing other things like Archon Hunts) So it seems like DA just got rushed out with half upcycled ideas (like the RNG and various existing sortie/netracell/disruption mutators), and half random "throw it at the wall" brainstorming ideas without any significant evaluation (particularly when they double up randomly) DE not understanding or having a vision for CC kind of comes from Pablo (who is now the chief gameplay guy) unfortunately having made tweets regarding Limbo, Loki, and CC in general that were very critical of it as a "turn the gameplay off" button, expressed inability to design around it. (Also the Hydroid rework, which took away huge chunks of CC utility from his kit in favor of making Saryn-lite)

For CC in ESO and in Survival, I think a good way to make CC useful would be to examine Circulus. Having Thrax alive while trying to farm Voruna drains your life support faster, and the reward timer pauses until they are eliminated. In order to make this work for ESO and normal Survival, there could be a pseudo-defense target (or more, depending on squad size). If enemies are interacting with the target, life support/efficiency drains faster. I don't think the timer pause is necessary in this case, but using CC to help keep enemies away from the target means CC is viable and so are damage frames, since you can just clear them. Add on a bubble like Duviri Jackal that prevents outside damage/abilities, and you are even penalized for missing enemies and allowing them to weaken you. Not a perfect solution, but brainstorming ideas amongst the community could be a path to an answer.

Also about defence being time based - DA Mirror Defence (and Survival) have a neat semi-hidden function we could add so players won't feel they sit ducks until timer is over. Going near Mech dispenser you can forcibly spawn Eximus one, killing it reduces timer by 45s.

Here's an idea for Disruption: Maybe those saboteur units have way less health and when reduced to 0 go into a knock down state. A player then has to stand close to it and wait a second or a tiny target to appear for a single second, which must be shot directly. (No cheesing with AOE.) It has minimal health so any gun can crack it with a single shot, but you have to be fully aware of the target and be ready to shoot it. If you fail to shoot the target before it blinks away, the unit gets back up with half the health and movement speed. Repeat until you shoot the target. CC would allow you to quickly create a moment of calm in a storm, so you can line up your shot perfectly while the trash mobs around you are snoozing. Perhaps to reward setting this up, shooting the target makes the saboteur detonate and send all CCed units in a generous radius ragdolling to the moon. The reason for this is A: Ragdoll physics are funny, and B: it rewards players for engaging with the unit's unique mechanics and using CC in a facilitative way.

Just to quickly mention this, at 6:28 when you mention Nova's Molecular Prime; the reason it doesn't work on Overguard is because Molecular Prime *only* boosts damage dealt to enemy health, not to Shields or, as you showed, Overguard. Just less of an inconsistency thing and more of a weird ability quirk.

I’d always had the idea of a Loki Rework not even being a full rework anyway. Moreso a change to his passive. My idea for Loki specifically was more so the status reduction thing in a similar vein to Hydroid’s new passive. Any CC ability cast by Loki affects enemies at full potency even through Overguard. This also tags an enemy with a mark that allows other frames to affect overguarded enemies with CC abilities at a diminished potency, maybe 1/4-1/2 the power/duration. More so leaning into his role as the trickster. This would also apply to any ability subsumed onto him which may be quite powerful, but Loki needs something. Edit: one enemy everyone always seems to forget is the nullifier bubble thing that gives an enemy a nullifier bubble in the Orb Valis. Ever have one of them put one onto the mobs that lunge at you at Mach 3 on the Orb Valis? Yea, basically an immediate ‘F your abilities’.

The funny thing about this is overgaurd didnt do its original job to the point DE now makes certain enemies invincible while they do their special move.

You know, this was actually the first video I watched of yours . . . I’m gonna be real with you, the amount of time this took to make deserves my subscription alone. Well done and excellent points made (coming from a 10+ year Frost main)

i love it. wow, what an amazing vid. quite nice to watch tbh, and honestly, as long and out there as it was, i think you structured it quite nicely : D . Thanks for it big boss

Simply put, fantastic video. I wish takes in this format and care were more the norm. You did incredible work on this and presented it all beautifully. I really hope this gets seen in full by DE. P.S. funny thing, this is my first video of yours, what a way to discover you! :)

Another fantastic video and a great direction. So many other creators make reference to these issues, but few sink any real time into fleshing it all out. I felt that there were points were it was obvious that apples were apples, but also felt that there was some space for my own opinion at other points, too. You are going in some really interesting directions! Thank you :)

I haven't done deep archimedea yet, but that all enemies having overguard sounds like absolute hell for CC frames. You basically have to hope for a good AOE weapon to deal with the overguard quickly.

I liked your 2nd idea about damage reduction on OG. I feel like you could go even further though. Why stop at damage reduction which many players won't even notice. Instead use damage attenuation, archon style. Then, when the enemy is affected by a CC effect, you could make the attenation more lenient for a few seconds. I think that would have the desired effect of making players slow down and interact with overguarded enemies. I would also like to say that CC is still quite effective in places like the Circuit. My friends and I did multiple level cap circuit runs, week after week. The thing that was most helpful in getting us to level cap was a strong CC frame. I found that Nyx was one of the best. I would subsume Silence and then all the eximus units would spend their time fighting the other enemies that were aggrod on them.

Love the vid furry man, keep it up. I love this new wave of WF creators (not really new but starting to be seen) that aren't toxic and overly detrimental to the community that are supposed to be creating a healthy space of discourse rather than shutting down opinions and preferences.

I've never played this game before and didn't even know what is was when I clicked on this video out of curiosity. But I've got to hand it to you. It was a good video. You had me invested in a game I don't know anything about for almost a full hour, and managed to explain everything in a way that I actually understood what you were talking about. Well done sir. Well done. I wish you and the rest of the community luck in getting the CC and OG changes you want

Yes ! Absolutely yes to all of this ! I thought I was subscribed before, was not, fixed that mistake, what a great video I just watched thank you for making it :DD

Thank you, warframe is a pretty special game and videos like these not only are entertaining but also helpful

You mentioning wanting defense to have a timer instead of waves is interesting because i've been wanting a survival mode that's basically just defense without the defense target (and without air support) so i wanna propose splitting the game modes. Wave Defense - Defense game mode unchanged but renamed Timer Defense - Defense game mode with a timer instead of waves (What was suggested in the video) Wave Survival - Defense game mode without a defense target, for a classic wave survival experience like found in other games Timer Survival - Survival game mode unchanged but renamed

I'm about 1/4 through this video and without commenting on the topic (which I think you're covering really well so far) I just wanna express just how well the ambient Warframe soundtrack works for this kind of video. Super chill

Very good video. Very well done! I loved it. Thank you so much for making it

I agree that 'CC is dead' is an overly reductive point and I broadly agree with basically all the points you've made in this video. Good stuff at that, this is the kind of content I like the most on this platform. That said, I will say that it does kind of /feel/ like 'CC is dead' when it comes to playing some frames. An example is Rhino where I had a had a pretty decent time playing with basically just tanking with Iron Skin and using Stomp just to sort out when stuff got hairy on a Defense/similar. This worked great as the high strength slow gave you time to sort things out and justified the high cost. After the normalization of Stomp's CC against Eximus it feels very unimpactful since they were almost the only enemies that I actually cared about in those kind of situations. There are exceptions to this (I really quite like Inaros' new kit and Sandstorm in particular as it's just a great team safety, grouping and status tool IMO) but too many abilities feel like they barely earn their keep even against an arguably 'fair' grouping of Eximus/NonEximus. I know this is a point you expounded on at length but I feel like most abilities are even worse off at the value proposition than the ratio suggests and that really drives the frustration and feeling of 'CC is dead.' But I'm really just venting in circles to myself at this point, lol.

Fantastic coverage and superb analysis of the topic. I appreciate you're explanation of making sure the design framework is not a limitation of the containing content - as in - rather than create ways to counter the issued system, to actually analyze the system that has issues itself.

Your style is unique and authentic with a good vibe. I feel like I am allergic to negativity and it's great to have someone lightly deliver possible changes versus the usual beat down. Stay cool CoolKid!!!

I've been this feeling since the Zariman update about Overguard. Specifically, that it's been a massive mistake across the board. I like the idea of making Eximus more challenging. However, what has happened is that they've just become annoying. Blitz and Toxin are overtuned, and then there's Overguard. If Overguard was just a second health bar with a ton of DR, I think I'd be ok with it, especially with the gear we have now. I'm of the camp that CC should be a direct counter to Overguard, being another way to deal with their abilities. Maybe reduced timers on their incapacitation, but just something. I haven't played Khora since Overguard, just because they just ignore the Strangledome and walk right through to punch me in the mouth. I completely agree with your points on the mission types and how CC affects them. The defense change in particular is an interesting idea, given how that's sorta how mirror defense works. But less travel, and therefore less annoying. Idk I just feel like Overguard is really what CC is meant for. Fodder are, well, fodder and aren't even really a concern. The important targets that need to be crowd controlled are just immune to it completely right now. Idk. I'm still pounding sand over Veilbreaker

Overguard, scaling, how game mechanics work and interact, what the meta is, why the meta is, and what fun is-among many other things, which DE does not understand

glad more videos like these are being made, it increases the chance of de noticing stuff like this and doing something to change it

My favorite cc frames to play usually involve helping with damage. Like frosts 4 augment that gives crit damage to frozen enemies, or zephyrs tornadoes damaging everything caught in one. So cc can indeed be something supportive, and also damaging. Yareli is a great example of this too. Loved the video! I almost exclusively play supportive and cc frames in warframe, but usually end up running some broken weapon to deal with the exiumus enemies whenever they show up. Corpus is my least fav cuz in higher difficulties its a nullifier every 5 feet.

i think there is a lot of great analysis, suggestions, and reflections here. hopefully someone at DE sees this and thinks the same and maybe they will consider improving it in whatever way they see fit

Honestly i love the laat part of the video discussing the community. Because I feel like I have contributed to the emotionally fueled rants that cause such strifes in the here. Granted im like a nobody so maybe its not that much at all, but I agree that we need to take a more level headed approach and understand that DE is so insanely forgiving and interactive with the community and we may always take that for granted. There will still be thibgds de may do in the future thatll piss us off but I never want to go as far as insulting or belittling them again.

Mark my words. One day DE will fill the screen with 100 Beds of Chaos, all in the name of difficulty.

40:31 The timer is there because sometimes the demolisher would get stuck in an inaccessible location and would thus softlock the mission otherwise, if I remember correctly. This might be a completely false memory, but I do seem to remember a time where the timer was not there and I got screwed over by that exact scenario

Title: DE doesn't understand overguard Me: I also don't understand overguard Marge Simpson: I just think it's neat

the visual spam on the fragmented boss with all those eximus is just too ridiculous...frames drop and it's a miracle I haven't bluescreened on that part yet

Here's another idea for changing how Overguard interacts with CC (which other people have probably also come up with but fuck it), which is essentially the opposite of status reduction: Make it so crowd control effects slowly drain overguard. This way, instead of enemies becoming slowly attuned to CC making them more dangerous over time, their OG acts as a resource granting limited protection from CC. This would accomplish a few things I think: -Crowd control helps softening up overguarded enemies before engagement, because their OG is already lowered -Situations like you being crowded by 500 eximus in a bossfight are avoided, because they all become susceptible to CC after some time so you only have to hold out for a while -Straight damage to Overguarded enemies is still a very viable option to deal with them quickly. CC effects help with this, because they also add damage to the OG, so they can actually compete with damage buffing effects -Different enemies can have differing resistances to CC, so enemies protected by ancients or Archimedea effects have lower OG pools so they become susceptible to CC quickly, while bulkier Eximus enemies can withstand for longer I also think the idea with the operator is really good. I think ideally this would be an addition to other changes rather than the only one

Overguard is a stopgap for easy CC right? What if they made changes to certain CC abilities to make them specially useful for removing overguard. Like a difference between burst CC and lasting CC (banish vs gloom) where burst CC is a tool for stripping overguard (and using banish as an example, is also a setup tool for the rest of the kit). Maybe a bad idea but it’s what I would propose.

Making defence time based reminded me of when i once solod a defence archon hunt and the enemies were too tough for me but i had khora, so while i or the defence target didnt die, the whole 10 waves took about 30 minutes to do since i didn't have the damage at the time

(preemptive "sorry for bad english") So i thought about this for a bit and came up with this sort of overguard "rework" and want to hear what you guys think about it. Overguard is still fully immune against CC HOWEVER: 1. Overguard can be removed with 1 hit from ANY weapon or operator (damage from abilities CANNOT remove overguard in any way, exalted/pseudo exalted weapons included) 2. After overguard is removed affected enemy redirects his agro to the player that removed said overguard (if they don't already) and becomes FULLY INVULNERABLE to damage (but not CC since he no longer has overguard) for 2.5s (time subject to change, took time from max shieldgate as base) 3. This invulnerability can be INSTANTLY DISABLED with: -operator damage (option for damage players) --if removed this way affected enemy will be briefly staggered (something similar to impact proc or maybe even make it do one) to give time to get back into warframe -ANY CC, even from weapons (except cold/impact procs maybe) -breaking noxs helmet (exception for this guy to keep his unique mechanic in place) What (i think) this means for: -damage players: instead of being just a tougher bullet sponge overguarded enemies become an "OH SHIT" moment that needs to be dealt accordingly (with operator) -CC players: you can now deal with overguarded enemies more easily but still need to at least locate them and click on them, if you ignore them you still get clapped and that's on you Potential problems (that i thought of as of writing this comment): -pre war within players will get spooked by eximus units way more than usual

I am commenting before I have watched this video through. Remain ungovernable!

Great video with some pretty good ideas, i hope DE gives it a watch

Well said; I've had similar thoughts on these potential changes. Frequent Nyx player

I see your longform video, and respond in kind. I apologize in advance, but at the same time, your critique of the situation and offer of ideas got me thinking, and I enjoyed the video a ton. So, here we go. I wholeheartedly agree that there needs to be more interaction with overguard besides "Haha mesa 4 go brr" or "Incarnon [Name your crit weapon of choice here] brr" because if you can resolve overguard the same way you resolve big amounts of health in the "Numbers go up" style, then it's just DPS over actually doing your work of trying to resolve the problem intelligently or put any use to what you have. I think CC abilities should definitely have some kind of effect. Vortex, Tornado, and other pulling effects should still work, but not ragdoll the target (Nautilus' cordon and Tether Grenades on the Penta launcher is a great example of this). This allows you to keep them in certain areas a bit more yes, but they can eventually break out (much like Sentients can adapt to damage types) while having overguard if allowed stay there too long. This lets you control the tide of battle for a time and single out or pull away dangerous enemies out of large groups to focus on them. Abilities that slow might instead weaken the effects of the overguard ability user, as if it slows the flow of their power and affects the potency making reduced output, to a cap of course. This means any slowing effect, even cold procs, provides a means of granting breathing room and giving a better fighting chance. Abilities that lift or hold enemies (Bastile, aegis storm, stomp, and so on.) would actively provide an effect that enhances that on enemies they support. This makes not only the enemies they support more visible (perhaps energy glow) but highlights the target that's causing trouble even more than before. While yes, they are already visible, if you have a horde of enemies blocking your sight, seeing some small group oddly glow tells you "hey there's an eximus over there" better when you're in the thick of it and don't always have the time to pick out that one eximus. Abilities that blind might be able to for a very fixed duration disrupt an active in use ability. Arctic Eximus bubbles, toxic eximus fields, arson eximus shockwaves, and so on. Give it a bit of counterplay where you're not stopping the eximus themselves, but battling the eximus ability against ability to give, again, a moment of breathing room. You still have to fight them, but you can at least stop a group of eximus from filling up the field with all their abilities at once and end up getting piled on. Perhaps about 1-2 seconds since you are speedy movement ninja. Banshee specifically using Silence is an enhanced version of this, up to 4 seconds. Look at each ability, and discover how you could change it's effects on overguard. Make it a fight where you get advantage with SOMETHING, rather than trying to just say "No CC, only damage. Go Brr or go home." As for Operator interaction, Eximus units should deal significantly less damage to the operator, and the operator does increased damage to the eximus' overguard specifically. Outright nuking the shield shouldn't be possible, but make it a reason why someone else has to keep the eximus pinned with different cc and provide cover fire against normal units who can do more damage to the operator. Make it feel like it takes at least some form of intelligence and team effort, while someone else helps crack the shield. IF all it takes is one operator ability or trick to shatter it, then the ideal of defeating overguard is push operator button, smack once, go back, return to norm. There's no need to think about their abilities, just know they exist. In my opinion, challenge exists best when you need tactics and strategy to at least some degree, not when the only solution is to min max your damage output so everything dies and then realize how shallow the meaning of overguard really becomes at that point. Again, If all you need is number go up, and a single gimmick invalidates the entirety of several warframes, you're just making people choose the Most Effective Tactic Available. Damage. Oh, and also: Ancient healers (and corrupted healers) need to function closer to what the warden does. Let tendrils of glowing mass in the style of infested latch onto a limited number of other non eximus enemies, and then make it so they are more visible. Also, limit active numbers of them as they should be treated similarly to the warden or maybe a little more by just a little bit. Wardens are a good idea executed well. Ancient healers feel like the prototype effort of wardens that need a proper rework.

Excellent video reviewing the principles of what defines CC and the issues that Overguard has brought

Healers already heal, shield ospreys already boost unit shields - maybe instead of overguard they could grant status reduction on connected units? Wouldn't prevent CC from working, would still make a difference as healers would move around, wake up, and fix up enemies and would eventually be a problem if left unchecked. As for overguard, it looks like it could be a way to make an underused element like blast shine a bit more - instead of being nearly useless or disruptive, it could specialise in destroying overguard or bubbles. Blast is uncommon between abilities and on-meta weapons, and it could fill that niche of solving a potential problem if you sacrifice a slot to bring an explosive weapon.

Small note about arbi/defense: While most players wont notice a big difference between 5 waves or 5 min, arbi players most certainly will. Defense is (next to interception) THE META game mode in arbis atm, bc you can finish a wave in 20-30s with a coordinated group. Your proposed change would change it up quite a bit but tbh, it would be quite a buff. Constant spawning and way less downtime is ideal for an arbi mission and would increase vitus/minute by a significant amount. Also small venting about the new demo mechs: WHY CAN YOU NOT BE STRIPPED REEEEEEEEEE, also your inconsistent DR is poop, I 1hko in solo and need 5-10s if im in a 4man... damage sponge go brrr ig

Honestly when they anounced the eximus rework i was expecting a good rework that give eximus some personality that made them a threat like other horde shooters do like vermintide 2 or l4d2 where if you let them alive they destroy you but they can easily die if you spot them ahead + the whole anounce the enemy before it shows up and sounds of the enemy itself I even tough overguard at first only was made to make cc and dmg abilties not been ablee to instakill eximus but your weapons biapased the overguard completely Instead we got this and to be frank it killed my love for the game completely,making me stay on vermintide 2 for like 2 years i ocasinally comeback for new content but i don stay for too long ,Warframe nowdays dificulty seems so cheap its just more health more armor more overguard rather than making the foes you are facing interesting

It's kinda funny that the ancient healer change you suggested is essentially to undo their rework

Love the use of Metroid music in various parts of the video :) Oh, and also great discussion XD

18:02 it was even worse in a full squad because of the increased enemy spawns. I'm not over exaggerating when I say that you could not see ANYTHING on your screen because it was full of particle effects vomit. I had to resort to using the enemy health bars for aiming my weapons and abilities. And killing the Eximus units was useless because they were all back up in a few seconds.

Honestly this video is really great video about cc

On the topic of CC and Survival Life Support drops - I think in some cases, some CC effects actually break enemies being able to drop life support - Zephyr's Tornadoes seem to struggle in particular, in my experience, and I consistently end up running out of life support even on steel path even with killing enemies quickly. Either I'm exceedingly unlucky, *only* when running her, or there's some kind of weird interaction.

Along with the Healers, the Arbitration Drones could be included there - they give full ability immunity and invulnerability - would be nice if they let enemies be affected by CC while still rendering enemies immune to damage - just like the Liminus things in (E)DA

Extremely well done!

As someone who has mainned Limbo since 2017, I agree with your complaints about the current state of CC and overguard. I do dislike the new Deep Archimedean as a lot of the risk variables just seem, hard to be hard, they don't really add anything unique or fun gameplay wise. I think the risk variables OR the limited loadouts would have worked better, as you can't even pick frames or weapons to work with your personally modifiers, or the risk variables. My first deep Archimedean I got Octavia or Oberon as the two frames I owned, alongside -75% ability duration which complete kills Octavia's whole kit. I still took here, I just didn't take max points that week. And something to take note of is that I don't really mind overguard in general gameplay. Because overguard does not stop units from entering the rift. And once they're in the rift, if stasis is active, they can't use ranged attacks besides any eximus auras. And these few exceptions actually helps Limbo's gameplay in my opinion. It would be boring (for me personally) to sit in a bubble, cast stasis and then never have to worry about an enemy again. The use of things like overguard makes it much more engaging as a player to be forced to interact with some units, while still scratching the power fantasy itch that is stopping an entire room and gunning down helpless victims. Of course, the deep Archimedean and healers basically disable his kit which is a little annoying, but I don't think every frame has to be viable for every mission. Which is why I don't mind the CC immunity on Demolishers because disruption just doesn't feel like a CC type game mode and I personally think it's okay if not every frame works all the time. Perhaps ideally they could, but there are far larger offended that I'd rather be fixed before things like Disruption and ESO. Defense changes would be nice however due to inconsistencies even when using damage/nuke frames. On the contrary, the things that I really do mind are the nullifiers. Especially because of endless ramping during fissures like excavation. I basically can't use Limbo against Corpus or Corrupted. I would be fine if the nullifier bubble would make the nullifier and all units inside the bubble immune to stasis without breaking cataclysm. This has always been annoying to me because it makes it hard to bring any true defensive frame (Frames like Limbo, Frost, Gara, or Khora) to excavation fissures because all it takes is a single nullifier spawning too close to the excavator and boom, the barrier is gone and the high level endless enemies insta break the excavator. And as an important footnote note for Limbo: Not sure if it's just an ignored bug or a stupid game design, but some defense type objectives are immune to the rift and can be shot by enemies from outside the rift. The main offenders being things like the coildrive defense during Orb Vallis bounties, as well as thermia canisters during the thermia fractures event. Which makes the strongest part of Limbo's kit completely useless for something he's normally very good at, timed defense.