☠️ WARNING: Knots in highline webbings ☠️

  Рет қаралды 2,797

Raed Slacklines

Raed Slacklines

Күн бұрын

Frost Knots for anchoring backups - a WARNING
During the last years I talked to several rope access pros - one particular sentence came up again and again from these professionals:
"If the safety of your rig depends on knot strength, you're doing it wrong"
There are several knots used in highline rigs, that are considered to be "safe knots". The double figure8 for tying the leash in to your harness, the double fisherman's for creating loops in rope anchors, the BFK in rope anchors and probably some more. None of these knots is as directly in the high load path as the "Frost Knot" which is widely used to connect the backup webbing to the anchor - mostly for one particular reason: To save a weblock, a.k.a. save some money and a little bit of weight. So this knot needs to be 100% safe, because our lifes as highliners absolutely depend on it.
What did we do?
Out of pure curiosity We regularly conducted frost knot tests in addition to regular gear tests. Since all other tests found their strongest results in frost knots with the load strand outside we focussed on exactly this knot. One day something strange happened: some results stayed FAR behind the expectations and the results from tests of other manufacturers and youtubers - a circumstance which highly aroused our curiosity even further.
What did we find?
We tested more than 60 frost knots in different slackline webbings. The most important lesson: We found massive deviations in the test results of frost knots in slackline webbing.
We found frost knots in webbings breaking to severe destruction at 12 kN, which is only 33% of the webbing's MBS.
Why is this important for highliners?
All slackline manufacturers who are organized in the ISA and the broad highline community agreed to an absolute minimum for highline webbing safety: The ISA:41 safety standard for Highline Webbing and Highline Webbing Systems - subsection 3.3.4: Type C highline webbings. This absolute minimum in strength and safety regulates that a highline webbing needs a strength of at least 18 kN in the sewn termination to be safe for highlining. Anything below that value is considered unsafe and comes with the risk of a complete failure of the highline rig. So it's highly reasonable to also set the exaxt same bar for webbing termination knots in highline rigs. The problem: Not only a small fraction but MOST of the knots we tested achieved results way below that minimum threshhold. So it's safe to say: Frost knots in highline webbings are not safe - they are a huge risk to the highliners and should be avoided at any cost.
What about sleeved knots?
Slacktivity found a sleeved frost knot in polyester webbing that retained a strength of 98% - when talking about our very first results from frost knots tests the question immediately came up: what about sleeves? Is this a solution to this issue?
So we also tested some sleeved frost knots - but the results were quite disappointing and just slightly above the 18 kN threshhold - we even found a sleeved frost knot to be weaker (!) than its unsleeved companion in the exact same webbing. We didn't conduct enough tests with sleeved knots yet to give a full recommendation about this but the first results also indicate a wide deviation in strength, so statistically it seems logical to assume there will also be knots with much weaker scores than the ones we found until now.
What do we recommend?
After conducting these tests and evaluating the results only one conclusion seems reasonable right now: The use of sewn loops and weblocks are the only known options to retain sufficient strength of slackline webbings in terminations. So we advise to not use any knots in the main load path of the webbing anymore.

Пікірлер: 14
@carl7124
@carl7124 2 жыл бұрын
One year ago in Russia a girl died during longlining. Guys used inappropriate sewn sling to connect linelock with anchor and it broke. There was backup made with end of the webbing (sorry, don't know the right word for it in english, it's a webbing which comes out from a linelock) tied with grapevine knot and it broke, too. Linelock flied right into the head of the girl(
@raedslacklines
@raedslacklines 2 жыл бұрын
Hey Anatoli, We're aware of that tragic, fatal accident in Moscow. We started our knot research a bit before it but this event definitely made us question knot strength in webbings a lot more and intensify our research to be able to give appropriate advice to protect slackliners around the world from other knot incidents. We hope this video does its part. Keep the balance.
@friedrichkuhne3220
@friedrichkuhne3220 Жыл бұрын
The main reason to use a knot instead of a weblock isnt the money, but the simplicity. A weblock only retains full strength if the webbing is sitting in it perfectly, ideally pretensioned. That's almost never the case with a backup. Weblocks with webbing thats not under tension usually dangle around under the mainline at all sorts of angles, twisting webbing, allowing for slippage, etc. You gotta tape the hell out of it to keep it in place.
@raedslacklines
@raedslacklines Жыл бұрын
Hey Friedi, thanks for your thoughts about this topic :) Please have a close look at our weblock tieback video, where we explain how to safely use raed weblocks in backups to completely avoid the "dangling issue": kzfaq.info/get/bejne/ms97jLiXu7DDXac.html Please also be assured that the "save some money incentive" to use knots is real, as we learned from direkt talks to many of our customers. That's why we think this discussion is necessary: yes, there's a minority of pros who do it for the reason of simplicity and most of them know very well what they're doing - but we learned that most customers asking for this don't do it for the reasons you mentioned - they try to do it for saving some cash and are often not as highly educated about highline safety as you for example are. I hope this helps a bit in understanding. Keep the balance :)
@ryansheridan5015
@ryansheridan5015 2 жыл бұрын
I was suprised by the amount of stretch you are achieving with such short sections of webbing. I am guessing the length comes from slack pulled from inside the knot. Knots can dissipate force when they set. By doing a slow pull are you removing this factor?
@raedslacklines
@raedslacklines 2 жыл бұрын
Hey Ryan, interesting point! From our real world tests we know that this dissipaition takes place in a fraction of a fraction of a second when having a backup fall. And at such speed a lot more heat is generated than in slow pulls, which might lead to additional damage and therefore further weakening of the webbing.
@splinkangels
@splinkangels 2 жыл бұрын
What about the unfinished 9? I'm curious to see this knot working with load
@raedslacklines
@raedslacklines 2 жыл бұрын
We didn't test this knot for many reasons. There have been major accidents involving this knot. The person who "invented" it wishes he never published it by now. This is honestly not an option at all. We highly recommend to not use this in your rigs. Stay safe and keep the balance :)
@niknik0815
@niknik0815 2 жыл бұрын
Hey Stefan, have you tried frosties which are tied as figure 8 instead of overhand? Any experience on that?
@raedslacklines
@raedslacklines 2 жыл бұрын
Hey Nik, if you look closely at the mode of failure, you might notice that the webbing slips of its own knot bulk and cuts into the loaded strand. This might happen as well in a fig8, we don‘t see any reason why it shouldn‘t happen there too.
@tamacrew
@tamacrew 2 жыл бұрын
What would be the load on a (more or less) loose backup after a leash fall with main line failure? I guess way far from 18kN
@raedslacklines
@raedslacklines 2 жыл бұрын
If you watched the whole video, you might have noticed that even a 36 kN webbing can break at 12 kN. So the made assumption of 18 kN webbing strength is incorrect, even for strong slackline webbings. Please be aware that loads of 10+ kN can easily (!!) be achieved in backup falls. Please also be aware that a rescue scenario might be necessary in a backup load case. For a rescue scenario 2 persons would be on the line and you'd need a safety factor high enough for the load that comes along with this. I hope this helps a bit in understanding, why knots in highline webbings are a seriously dangerous thing. Keep the balance :)
@tamacrew
@tamacrew 2 жыл бұрын
Thanks@@raedslacklines! Do you have any scientific evidence of the >10 kN load on backup falls that you could share with me? I am just curious
@raedslacklines
@raedslacklines 2 жыл бұрын
​@@tamacrew A friend of us measured 8ish kN in a leashfall on a 200ish polyester line some weeks ago. Please also check the ISA knowledge base for further resources, if I remember correctly there's a link to a study some of the ISA guys did in cooperation with Landcruising many years ago.
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