I admire you guys for how different standpoint you're backing, yet still are able to politely communicate, rare and nice to see occurance. I hope that all the other creators learn from you Erin

They are far from smooth.

With what associated gear and music genre@@dannyrichie9743? My old speakers don't measure perfect but I have not heard anything at their price point that sounds as good in my room with my gear and my music. How do all these speakers sound once the kits are added? I don't listen to measurement/testing gear. Where are the reviews?

I'd still do the upgrade.

Agree, I like them. I have a switch, for music I am using a tube amp & Roon. For video an Emotiva amp. It is is very musical and I am only wondering wether the new version with improved filter would be better. The Emotiva sounds to American and lacks emotion when looking at concerts so I think I will replace them with a Darteel clone and also consider the Gr Research filterupgrade. Only question is whether the center speaker can also use this upgrade

@@TRdaytona675different speaker needs a different crossover

Yep. I have the Lumina II as well and frankly I disagree with his assessment. I don't hear any smearing or ringing as he states. I listen to a lot of piano work and I don't hear any impurities as keys are struck. They are energetic up top but that is a plus for me. Maybe that is because I have a specific hearing loss. Whatever the case, I really enjoy these speakers and will not be doing any upgrades at this time. Especially at that price point. I just don't feel it's needed.

I love these speakers. Paired with a rel tzero sub.

The Macintosh group don't actually own Sonus Faber. Sonus Faber was acquired as part of a big buy up, which Macintosh became part of themselves. The company that acquired them and others has recently changed hands. Agree on the better stuff holding its value to a point. I had a set of Electa Amator 2's that I had spare so I sold them and only got a couple of thousand for them ($2500 from memory). I am kicking myself for selling them i should have just kept them in the boxes I didn't need the money. I had a set of Cremonas which I did get much better money back on after using them for about 10 years. This recent stuff needs to be made into firewood.

I made the same mistake letting go a pair of Electa! I adored them for the look and sound. On their webpage it mentions McIntosh Group. I wouldn't buy anything new from anyone right now. I'll probably end up building something and keeping my 20 year old PMC TB1 and Jean Marie Reynaud Cantibile. All pre 2000's before accountants took over the industry! @@DodgyBrothersEngineering

google this: Sonus faber Quid....@@DodgyBrothersEngineering

@@gdwlaw5549 I wouldn't be surprised if the website still says that. Often websites are slow to be updated. A lot happened since The MacIntosh Group acquired them back in 2007. In 2018 Highlander Partners became the major stake holder in The MacIntosh Group, essential becoming the new owners, at least in shares, but then the whole group was acquired in 2022 by another party from what I have heard. So it is possible at least in name that the new owners have kept the company as a whole still calling it The McIntosh Group. It is all very convoluted and complicated. But needless to say it is not the same Sonus Faber we knew and loved pre 2000's. I has been so long ago now I really can't remember which of their speakers I bought first. I radically changed directions somewhere pre 2000. I was heading down the track of a M&K home theatre setup and had already bought one of the better 2 driver subs, when a friend in the audio industry introduced me to Sonus Faber. As I say I don't recall what I bought first. It may have been a pair of gloss black Grand Pianos. I later bought a couple of pairs of bookshelf for surrounds, Concerto I think. I also had two Sonus Faber subs back then. I vaguely remember remember buying the non black version of the Grand Pianos to match the surrounds. I think I then bought the Electa Amators for a centre channel, then decided the rest of the system wasn't up to scratch and sold all of the other stuff and kept the Electa Amators. The Cremonas were released and I feel in love with them because they had the bass that the Electa Amators were missing. The Cremonas became my main stereo speakers and the Electa Amotors went back into the box. Not really having an immediate use for them I parted with the Electa Amators, which I regret to this day because in many ways they were far superior to the Cremonas, they just didn't have the same range. I stopped buying speakers for a while and kept the Cremonas for probably 10 years when I felt I couldn't live with the inferior sound any longer and wanted better sound. I started looking at the Cremona stuff in the mid 40 thousand range as it was the next step up from what I had. It was at this point I made the radical decision to go active DIY and I have been enjoying those for probably the last 13 years.

@@DodgyBrothersEngineeringSf seems to be pushed by that ownership to make these entry level products. I have the Luminas for my TV and visually it’s a great little speaker. Sonically it’s treble boosted. Good for that application but would not use these in a dedicated system.

We might make that happen.

@@dannyrichie9743 I'll believe that when I see it!

@@Chris-hy6jy Hang in there.

Have you looked inside a Sonus Faber cabinet? Don't for a moment think this cheap crap represents the typical Sonus Faber build quality. 99% of people couldn't make their better cabinets. Even at this level most still couldn't make them. A square box that most people would make are not the same thing.

@@DodgyBrothersEngineering yes I do realise that, that cheaper end is not as good, but after owning lot's of speaker over a 45 year period, I started building my own, with scan-speak drivers & woofers, using 19mm birch plywood cabinet, well braced. Crossovers using top parts from Mundorf & Jantzen & finally using OCC wiring You can build a £5,000 monitor for around £1,000 if you build them yourself. Thanks for the chat 👍

@@tweakerman definitely agree that DIY is a great option for those seriously wanting to step it up a notch on a budget. After owning I think I counted 6 pairs of Sonus Faber speakers myself, I decided to go the DIY route myself. Owning those Sonus Faber speakers gave me the opportunity to peak behind the curtain. I pulled the drivers out and took a lot of photos of things like the cabinets and crossovers, and see what drivers are in them. The last set of speakers I owned was a set of Sonus Faber Cremona floor standers. That is how I know that every person is not going to be able to reproduce those curved cabinets that reduce standing waves easily, but would it be impossible? Absolutely not. Before I went DIY I was sitting on the fence do I spend $45,000 on upgrading to some better Sonus Faber speakers, or do I look at going DIY? After much deliberation (I had the money and wasn't married then) I decided nope instead I am going to go active instead of passive crossovers that I would still be getting in the more expensive speakers and just step up the driver quality. Now if you are a Scanspeak fan like myself you will immediately recognize the mid and two woofers in the Cremonas as being Scanspeak Revelator series drivers (quite possibly what you are using yourself) and the tweeters were nothing more than a double magnet version of the Discovery series ring radiator tweeter, a tweeter that sells for $71 today 20 odd years later. So where was the $13,000 - $17,000 they sold for RRP? While the crossovers didn't use cheap junk, there still was no where near that kind of money in them. The cabinets were extremely well made and thoroughly braced, but they weren't what I thought I was buying. The top and the bottom of the speakers are real wood, but the main body of the Cremonas was curved MDF covered with a veneer that looks like wood. You would have to be extremely talented to reproduce a cabinet that looks even remotely as good as the finish on the Sonus Faber speakers. Every set I have owned were new and the finish on them was 1000%. But what you can do that they can't in the factory is build it with crazy thick walls, if you want to build a cabinet with 4" thick walls you can do that because you aren't constrained by design that the factory is (I have an upcoming sub that might be as thick as 60mm). For tweeters I bought RAAL dipoles which today retail for $1497 each plus post, I stepped up the mids to the Scanspeak Illuminator series, and went with TC Sounds woofers. Even after paying around $7,000 for an active crossover, I am still well short of the kind of money I would have spent if I had bought the expensive Sonus Faber's.

@@DodgyBrothersEngineering Revel puts $25.00 crossovers in their $4000.00 Bookshelves. That is a fact. Sonus Faber uses pretty much the same level crossover in these what $1600.00 bookshelves. Trusting any of these manufacturer's is a fools game. Sonus Faber & Revel have the exact business model. Substandard parts till you take out a second mortgage, only then they will give up the quality parts. Even then you will pay many times what they are worth, as per their pricing model. Don't trust any of them. Danny liked the box and the bracing. Are you sure they build their own boxes? Most farm it out to qualified woodworking people. You should have read the glowing reviews of Revel's 4k bookshelves with those 25.00 crossovers. Making fools of anyone that reviewed them.

Exactly. Upgrading raises the cost by a lot. You cannot produce a speaker for the general public that looks like an apple crate. @@DodgyBrothersEngineering

What speaker here, doesn't need an upgrade? I'd like to see specific price points tested, listened to, by independent listeners, and then judged on how is sounds with specific genres. They have to look great unless you don't care but most people do.

Most speaker manufacturers have a basic affordable (for them) crossover. They charge for the name and hype around their brand. The customer whom send in these speaker, found them a bit bright and wanted them fixed, if possible, it’s Sonos. There were issues with them as the measurement shows. To fix that, Danny fiddle around with parts, so he will get a nice measurement. One, two, three or fourth order crossover it might be to correct this Sonos. He does this for free, but charges for the parts. The customer whom send the speaker will be happy with the quality and accurate sound. Any problem with that? Do you work for free? Could you do it better, then just show us.

@@rikardekvall3433it’s not Sonos.

@@jonathandavis9507 Yepp. But my spelling program didn’t like Sonus….😳.

@@rikardekvall3433 In this case, the first order filter didn't work out very well.

@@dannyrichie9743 Yes. Most of us, trust your judgment and expertise. Love my X-LS’s Encores.

Thank you.

Unlistenable to me.....

A few of them have contacted my with positive feedback. I guess it they do a good job they don't need to cringe.

The Amator always had real wood (sides at least). The Amators are a completely different level to this garbage.

I do take a lot of full range measurements. I actually covered it in my last video. However, it includes room reflections. To do a full range measurement will require an anechoic chamber. We built an anechoic chamber and used it daily at GR Research's first location. It was nice, but not absolutely necessary either. There is not much that I can do about the dip at 450Hz, at least not without throwing a lot of parts at it. It is really not that bad. The tweeters response is such that a notch filter is not going to fix it. A notch filter is more ideal for a specific area and not a broad area that needed brought down in this case. I did by-pass the top octave with a small cap. So there is not much more I can bring it back up.

Good video Danny, a friend of mine in in Massachusetts bought a pair of those at a garage sale in his town and he said right from the moment he tested them in his listening room he was so unhappy he just gave them to goodwill and just wanted them out of his eyesight. After watching your video on these made me understand what he was cussing about . Like always your content is spot on . When my health gets better i would lo e to cone audition your speakers . Ive had to sell off my entire museum of audio gear the last 6 months to pay for my medical needs . Plus with the nerve problems and ptsd i can no longer listen to a lot of the music from my younger years. My next setup i will put together will be something that wont make my brain hurt . Cheers ​@@dannyrichie9743

You probably need a higher end sub with better drivers/amplifier.

@@jasontimothywells9895 Come see me when you are ready. I'll take care of you.

anybody know about speaker+box can expect how low can it go.

Sorry I said I trust my speakers I was meant to say my ears

Absolutely, it is all about what we hear. The measurements systems just give us a visualization of the speakers output, and those measurements can show us things that we clearly hear. We know that problems and inaccuracies in amplitude, phase, driver break up, and cabinet resonances are easy to hear. The measurements are great at showing us those things.

Hear Everything Sorry, but do you know 3:17 how many speakers measure beautifully? And they sound like crapp, believe me, I've gone through that.

@@user-pq4nr9jf5k Let me know when you are ready to change that.

Anyone can set it up and press go to get measured data. Knowing how to read and understand it is what is important. Also, from what I heard Erin has been banned, or blocked at ASR.

The lower one was actually caused by the binding post cup being removed and then taped over with the leads sticking out so that the new crossover could be designed. Once the back is sealed back up properly it isn't there. I should have reassembled it and reshot it to show it, but just didn't have time. The change in crossover can't create that. Good catch though.

They are cheaply produced mass marketed speakers. They sound like crap. We turn them into something. And our measurements are in fact 100% accurate.

Silver

@@user-rn2jd8uo7mgood because that's the kind I got lol

​@@user-rn2jd8uo7mand garlic

Our new Brute and Bully models will eat up that type of music up. We tried it, and had so much fun with it that we had to quit for a while to let our ears recover. We were cranking it and loving it.

Dynaudio Evoke series

@@user-xg6zz8qs3q Look inside. The crossovers are garbage.

@@dannyrichie9743 That sounds like a fun speaker to try out, only problem is I live in Europe, so I guess with shipping and customs they would end up rather expensive.

@@user-xg6zz8qs3q Thanks for the suggestion, I'll take a look at those.

Sure, see the one before this one.

“It iz what it izz…”

No, in the other direction they will not be that good.

It is just a stack of Neo magnets.

Some of us have a more accurate system than others, and well controlled rooms. So response problems are easily heard.

@@dannyrichie9743 nice for you, to me there is an acceptable level, improving things beyond that level I get diminishing returns, I find it's more enjoyable to spend time looking for new interesting songs than spending time tweaking with sound quality, as long as my bass is deep, I can hear some mids and highs, I'm good to go, making it flat won't make a wack song become good 😂

@@mwizachavura8399 That's true, but in this case that wack song might not burn a hole in your head because the tweeter level is not 4 or 5db too loud anymore.

@@dannyrichie9743 I hear you, I guess if the budget is right yes, why not, have the best things possible

The measurements show problems and/or accuracy. The garbage used in the stock crossovers will tell you how they will sound. These were really bad.

Power handling of tweet at expense of off axis linearity

X over is out of the range of the human voice, human ear also has a resonance around 4K .

Also current thinking is to close cluster drivers. To avoid comb filtering, the highest frequency allowed would be 3 k. Any higher and you cant get the drivers physically close enough.

@@davevolz6138 true, however if speakers are used in near field it Isnt a problem.

The lower crossover points have a lot of advantages and nearly always sound better.

Funny, while he was here he was very impressed and said at one point when playing a song he new really well, that was the best he'd ever heard it.

They are know for a hot top end as most of the time the tweeter level is 3 to 5db louder than the rest of the speaker.

Nonsense, a Clio system is not crystal ball. Crystal ball measuring would be designing by ear.

@@Darkmatterme That's probably why the area below 200 hertz is hidden, like snake's legs... :)

@@adissabovic you have no idea what you are talking about, are you.

@@Darkmatterme That's correct: you have no idea what I'm talking about.

@@adissabovic okay then explain then why a Clio system is like a crystal ball 🔮and why it is not measuring below 200 hz. Troll

We are always going to center it to make it more readable. It does not change the scale. There is no deception the levels are clearly on the graph.

I agree, love them, so did a boatload of reviewers

@@raymoore8435 Yep. The things he talks about, especially with the tweeter, are the things I love about this tweeter! And he wants to take that away. I know this is all subjective and I would never challenge his technical knowledge. But in this case, I simply disagree. He goes on like this is some POS budget speaker, and that is simply not true. Oh well, he can bash them all he wants. I love mine and I am not changing them.

@@dennismoraisus4187 If you have damaged hearing then that super hot top end may not be an issue for you. For the rest of us that can hear, that hot top end will just about burn a hole our our heads. It also is very much a budget level speaker.

@@dannyrichie9743 You are entitled to your opinion. And I am entitled to disagree with you, which I do. I bought these speakers for me, not for you. What, perhaps if I bought one of your magic power cables they would sound better? HAHAHAHAHAHA! Whatever, dude. If you read my response, I do not discount the possibility that your approach to the cross might be worth looking into at some point. For now, I am enjoying them as is. And what difference does it make if they are considered "budget". That is pretty elitest, if you ask me. Again, we can agree to disagree. Meanwhile, I will continue to love these great little "budget" speakers. I'll leave it there.

@@dennismoraisus4187 Try a power cable and find out, but if the rest of your gear is as budget level as those speakers (very cheaply made) then our power cables may not be worth it to you. Then again they might make a notable improvement just like the upgrade that I designed for those speakers.

You still never have. Please Cope.

Cheaply made....

Sonus Faber haven't controlled what has happened in the company for a very long time. They were bought up along with some other big names. These sorts of acquisitions can do serious damage to the way a company operates. Someone on high decides you build cheap crap. Cheap crap gets built, then all the history and pedigree go out the window. Quite honestly this stuff is an embarrassment to the brand.

@@DodgyBrothersEngineering It would seem that any time one of these brands sells out, it never goes well. Mcintosh is a prime example. I had numerous problems with their reliability and support. I believe SF is under the same umbrella.

@@tritiumglo4699 becomes more about the dollar and less about the passion. It doesn't take long before it starts to reflect in the product.

Come hear them.

Keep in mind that the pair of speakers, boxing, and packing material has to come in for around $200 in cost to produce in order to sell them at $1,000 a pair.

There's some Korean class D engineering that absolutely blows away all other amps. I mean distortion levels so low that laboratories have to get new equipment and develop new measuring techniques to get an accurate distortion measurement. But then the Chinese take these schematics and redesign the PCB to minimize real estate, then populate that real estate with the cheapest junk components money can buy, and now it's a mediocre amp that isn't worth a darn. What am I saying? Even when the Chinese steal the greatest engineering in the world. By the time they're done with it, it's just another piece of junk.

If Rolls Royce offered a car for $100,000 would you consider that cheap? Sonus Faber in the past only offered high end speakers, they built this cheap junk to try grab more market share. Sonus Faber are never going to try and duke it out with the Chinese over the scraps. High end Sonus Faber speakers can go as high as several hundred thousand dollars. By offering this cheap garbage they are damaging their brand, but lack of sales has forced them into this low end of the market. I would never touch anything this cheap in their range. I would go for other brands that offer better value before buying this stuff there is no value here. What people are paying for is a name. This is like buying a Rolls Royce for next to nothing with a million miles on the clock and dents in every panel just so you can say you own a Rolls Royce.

Steel nuts? Balls of steel?!