kzfaq.info/get/bejne/fOBlYMeIvK2ooJ8.html - SOH after 110.000 km within 14 months = 100%

Another brilliantly interesting video, please keep them coming!!.....

Great video and insights. Thanks

Bloody brilliant video, ZT! You should be helping to write policy on this stuff. Despite owning an Ioniq for about a month, I hadn't really worried about, or given all that much thought to battery health and degradation. Thanks.

Anyone know what the leather strap is for which comes in the 3 pin charging bag? I can't see a place to attach it!

An informative and reasoned discussion of the issues involved. Well done for elucidating a very opaque subject that the manufacturers seem to want to remain in the shadows.

Thanks for bringing an important issue on the field on battery life. There are - as you mention - ways to retrieve information about the condition of the battery by means of an OBD2 dongle. First I tried to get TorquePro to work in my Ioniq EV. It has succeeded - even though it is pretty nerdy. It is a smart and well-functioning tool with a lot of features. A simpler shortcut to information such as the state of helth, battery temperature, and charge level can be found in the app EVNotify, which, like TorquePro, communicates with OBD2 dongle. Recently, a new opportunity has emerged, called EVNotiPi. It's not only an app, but includes also a piece of hardware you place in Ioniq and connected to the communication socket.

I have an Ioniq 28 KWH Electric vehicle. While attempting to charge my car through AC, the connection failed, and the car did not receive a charge. I encountered the same issue with CCS, despite the cable appearing to be in good condition. It was successfully charging just two days ago. What could be the issue?

Great and interesting video

Thank you for a well crafted analysis of a difficult topic. ‘State of health’ or whatever we care to call it will surely affect resale values. And if the average car buyer cannot understand or rely on what he or she is being told then the resale value of EV’s will suffer. Your quote from the EU document shows just how ill-defined and nebulous the question of battery health is. On the other hand, who really knows what is going on within the oily morass of a used ICE (internal combustion engine) and its gearbox? The advantage of the ICE of course is statistical significance, a known unknown where 'caveat emptor’ is accepted by the buyer. A friend here in France bought a new Ioniq electric in 2017 and has since covered over 35,000 km and reports no loss in range. Based partly on his experience I am a month into owning a Kia e-Niro and very pleased with it so far. I have recorded the experience on my KZfaq e-Niro Diaries of delivery, early days of use and a road trip to Switzerland last weekend..I hope you don’t mind me mentioning it here. My advice has been to charge between 20% and 80% for day to day use then go up to 100% once a month unless required more frequently for long trips. I would appreciate advice from other EV users and will continue to post and record long term ownership experiences.

Excellent video. Really need something that stands out for the customer. I'd probably say percentage of range left compared to new. I.E. you can only get 90% of the original 200 miles of a new battery. Overheating, freezing, traffic light boosts also need to be logged.

This is an excellent discussion! Thank you so much. Unfortunately what we are asking for with a standardized measurement of degradation of maximum charge state, is for car manufacturers to report the simple true truth about they're a product. It is a lovely thought but not likely to happen, is it?

Thanks Duncan, this is really useful. The Ionic EV will most likely be the first EV I buy as these were the first EVs to come to Australia late last year and will probably the first to hit the market second hand (barring a Lotto win or a big bag of money dropping out of the sky into my lap) and this issue of battery degradation is my number 1 concern about buying a second hand EV. For the Prius it was not such an issue, because the battery can be rebuilt for under a grand, but for a full EV it's a different ball game.

About to become an Ioniq EV owner this week curious if majority of my charging is granny charging how much should I charge to for day to day use all short distances with only odd longer trip for best battery health in your opinion?

IONIQ lithium polymer battery is much better than the one in the Leaf or Zoe. It is better cooled and better protected by the buffer and the battery managment system. No wonder that as a buyer there is no worries to have. My car was a showroom demo in an official Hyundai garage in the swiss countryside. It had only 1500km but I asked the garage for the battery report and they kindly produce it for me. All cells were confirmed at the same voltage and the overall battery state of health at of course 100%. I charged to 100% and got 265km range in Spring 2018. Sure these are practical real life car health indicators that I continue to test and obtain same values today, one year after. In 2019, with the numerous recent and trustable reensurring reports from EV users of Hyundai and Tesla EVs, I would say that ANYONE should expect NO MORE than a 10% range degradation today for a 2nd hand IONIQ, 3 years old, 100000km. The times when one worried about battery degradation are behing us. Well, of course, other car manufacturers are exposing an information on the dashborad only if there is a strong constrain for the buyer/owner. We all know there are more risks and less expectations if looking for an older Renaud Zoe or a Nissan Leaf. This is why these less qualitative cars have to shamefully show information remembering you every day the weakness of their batteries (SOC and GOM), the fast degradation of the SOH (battery health bars), and the lack of thermo managment (sky rocketing unhealthy battery temperatures and 3x slower charging speeds). Can anyone find a report, a video, a complain about the IONIQ health and performances ? I couldn't. IONIQ is only breaking a few things: the 400km range and 66 KW charging speed with its light weighted 28KWh baterry pack. Surely a unicorn to chase as a first or second hand car ! 😚

I can only afford a used phev and am pretty shocked the prices being demanded considering battery capacity (kWh) is likely quite reduced for many of them. Yes, display of battery capacity (percent of kWh reduction IMO) should be mandatory so one can make an educated purchase decision and be able to make a claim if performance proves sub-par. In addition, stop light colors would nice to indicate voltage hold/linearity capability (a pack with a bad cell will suddenly dip in voltage at some point during discharge).

Checkout EV Notify app for Ionia. Shows a state of health for HV battery. What exactly that is I'm not sure ....

Many thanks for your help. I have a question that I can’t find an answer to that is, How do you interrupt a charge when using a home Pod-Point charger and be able to release the cable. This happen to me when an emergency arrived that I needed the car in a hurry.

Very good info, one question I have is, is it better to charge to 100% or to say 95% if possible and go no lower than into the red zone ? TBH I've only hit turtle mode once and that was this year in winter by accident,.most of the time I charge from about 50% in winter and about 25% in Summer! Would you say this is good too? Who knows!

Good video btw. For the Leaf's battery degradation of gen1 and gen2 seems noticeable, ie the battery can be 90% on a car < 2 years old so a so called 30kwh leaf is really a 27kwh leaf. ditto 40kwh, so really its a 36kwh battery in < 2years. Ioniq's on the other hand still seem to be 100% in 2 years? I have read that there is a 3 or 4kwh hidden buffer on the Hyundia hence if there is any decline its being hidden. This is a worry really as at last with the Leaf we know and can see its declining so can price a second hand purchase accordingly. For the Ioniq however it might be 4 years and then we find its decline is simialr to the Leaf but we paid a lot more for the Ioniq to avoid that,so we got burned.

Hybrid Assistant app (for Toyota hybrid) performs HV battery check under load, on demand. And it counts the total energy to & from the battery at every ride. Knowing SOC at start & end of a ride you can calculate the actual battery efficiency. It isn't the SOH equivalent but quite helpful. We need something like that for EVs!

Helpfull, great ! Actually 215 000km and SOH 100%-95%BMS very few fast charges 2%

Good video.

It is impossible to read out or otherwise diagnose an IONIQ‘s battery SOH, at least until someone figures out a way to look into its buffers. However, based on the characteristics of the battery (optimised for high energy throughput rather than high energy density) and the warranty Hyundai are prepared to provide, it is safe to assume that cycle live will be irrelevant for most people and that we can expect to see an annual degradation of 3% or less of the original capacity. I think, most IONIQs performance in terms of practical range will shrink to somewhere near that of a new 24kWh Leaf within 15 to 20 years. It will, however, still charge faster and still not suffer from ”rapidgate"

if battery condition is 80% then find out what 80% of the max mileage is then you'll have a rough idea how much miles your losing on a full charge. Then use that as a guide to barter you price down. simplest way to do it, as the mileage is one of the most important things on Electric Cars.

Really interesting discussion. What do you need to question, and what can you make of the answers, even if you can get them?

You're spot on with the comment about the chaotic situation with customer and dealer awareness about battery characteristics, Duncan. It's not an acceptable state of affairs. Also, that scatter plot is very revealing. One wonders about the reasons why Nissan have been so cautious with charging speeds for the latest Leaf models. They must have seen the trend towards faster degradation of the 30 kWh battery in comparison to the 24 kWh one, and maybe decided that heat was a significant factor contributing to that. We can assume that battery technology has not deteriorated over the past few years, and we know that drivers will be recharging larger batteries less frequently, so our conclusion has to be that heat is damaging the cells, especially during faster charging. If I owned a 40 kWh model, then, based upon that graph, I would not want to use the latest firmware, which allows for faster recharging, and thus more heating. Do the producers of the plot say which country was being monitored, or is that international data? Thanks.

Nice video, and an important topic! Just like an IC car, there is no standard for showing "how efficient or powerful is this engine/battery?" LeafSpy and other EV apps have maybe misled people into thinking that EV batteries are more predictable. However my experience of 2 years with the Leaf 24 showed that State of Health varied a lot depending on temperature and habits. For example a few rapids could push SOH up by a few% - but it soon fell back over the next few days. There is degradation (damage) that can be inflicted on Li-Ion batteries by getting them hot and/or leaving them at or near 100% or 0%. Because Leaf batteries were very expensive, I think Nissan pushed the batteries rather too hard, (in terms of stress on the cells, asking 80kW from 21kWh capacity is a lot - a 4C power drain, and for the cells it's akin to a Tesla's Ludicrous mode which has a warning attached). Nissan then compounded this with no active cooling, and allowing really quite high battery temperatures. The Ioniq has the advantage of the buffer, limiting the stress on the cells of a full charge (according to Torque it charges to 95% on the BMS when it shows 100% on the dash); and battery cooling. Even so, I avoid charging to 100% on the dash every day as I want my battery to last a very long time, by using the charging timers. Occasional charges to 100% are a good idea, to balance the cells. Just drive the car soon afterwards to lose to top few %. Degradation is inevitable and it's too early to tell what the rate will be, there's probably some hiding of degradation going on in the displayed BMS data since mine is at 100% after 2.5 years/25k miles.

I’m not sure if this is the same kind of battery like in mobile phones where battery degredation on 80% means that battery is consumed/used and need to be replace.

The flipthefleet data from NZ eventually proved the software was faulty on the 30kwh models, so Nissan released a new version resolving the differences. This shows that a Standard measure is only as good as its implementation.

Great video/discussion on the battery health issue, and the poor reporting of battery 'health' by manufacturers. My Leaf 30 is 2 years old , only 14k miles, and has a SOH of between 97% and 101% depending on recent weather/use/charging activity. Rapid charging/use appears to boost the calculated figure by improving the electrolyte conductivity. As SOH is calculated from a number of factors it can be a moving feast! Just a warning about the data on flipthefleet, it is self reported data, so biased towards users who have a reason to report battery health. Heavily negatively biased and unrealistic degradation for general users.

I thought it was a 28kw battery with 23kw that is usable. I am so confused.

Dont they come with lifetime battery warranty?

First off a little background information ... I have a question regarding EV charging. I currently drive a PHEV here in Ontario Canada. The car is a 2018 Chevrolet Volt. Apparently GM is off again killing the Electric Car, looks like, this car is discontinued as of February 2019. The Chevrolet Volt is a Plug in Hybrid Electric Vehicle aka, as a PHEV. This PHEV has a real world range of 85km/53 miles in the Winter and roughly 160km/~100 miles in the Spring, Summer, & Fall. I know this from experience as I have been driving the car 2 Winter's now and this will be my second summer with this car. I have seen many people on the internet complain about PHEV and the fact that they should not be allowed to charge at a public charger. According to BEV driver's of FULL time Battery Electric Vehicles; I should not be allowed to charge my car at a public charger as I can drive on fuel/petrol. But in truth I only want to drive in Battery mode because my range permits me to do so while I drive in the city. Since the car does not have a Fast Charging option like is available in the Mitsubishi Outlander which happen's to have a much smaller battery. I cannot effectively travel on BEV mode outside of the city. I am curious as to the responses, as I have posted this conundrum on several other video presenter's sites and get varied answers. My question is that IF I drive my car the VOLT exclusively on Battery mode in the city where I happen to live, plus I happen to live in an apt complex that does not allow charging. Where should I be permitted to charge my CAR?

I agree entirely that when buying a used EV there needs to be some sort of standardised unit of information to help potential buyers understand what they are buying. However, when buying an ICE car what metrics do we have to measure the performance/efficiency of an petrol or diesel engine ? I'm not talking about new mfrs spec sheets, I'm talking about the car in front of you in a 2nd hand car lot. Nothing at all is the answer. And this brings me onto what we view as important when buying a used ICE car versus an EV. EV performance is scrutinised in minute detail in terms of range, cold weather bad; heating on bad; lights and wiper bad; higher cruising speeds etc etc all these things affect EV range - but we never talk about or gather data on ICE cars in the same microscopic way ????? Of course diesels use more fuel in winter etc etc but we just don't thing to examine these points with an ICE vehicle.

An interesting video, in all these things there needs to be a balance between information and people's perception. I have been involved in some work on an app for managing chronic health conditions. What struck me was that during the user feedback sessions was how people were focusing on things like changes in their blood results. In clinical terms these changes over the course of a year did not reflect changes to the patients condition and therefore we did not pay a huge amount of attention to them. However to the patients these changes looked severe and so whilst the aim of the app was to take the hardship out of managing a condition it was actually creating more stress. There is a lot of confusion and miss information about EV batteries, if you read the forums you will see that many people think they are driving a mobile phone 🙄. The warranty for our batteries is 8 years, charge it, drive it , enjoy it.

the state of capacity of the Electric you buy is important. But the conditions you will drive it in are just as important. A LEAF battery WILTS in the HEAT very fast. It might look good coming from Oregon but if you are in the Southern USA or other HOT area it will lose range 10 times faster 10-20% a year compared to a well designed Electric like the Tesla that has liquid cooling.

Good topic, not sure a standard can be achieved with so many different battery chemistries being used, is a standard of battery make up that will help to stardardise the industry. But I under=stand the problem it presents, on leaf FB pages people are so concerened they sell thier car! SOH anxiety!!!

The high voltage battery in my 2017 Hyundai Sonata PHEV died under warranty after only 4 years and Hyundai refused to repair/buyback or even provide a loaner. After a year and a half I finally won a non lemon law buyback through the bbb. I would stay away from any Hyundai electric vehicle, new or used, like the plague.

There's a bit of a problem here with getting useful numbers out of a EV: state of health can go up as well as down - possibly because rapid charging balances cells when home charging on single phase does not. That is, if you do lots of 70% to 100% charges at home your cells can get out of balance and SOH appears to drop rapidly, plus, as well all know, keeping li-ion batteries above 80% charge for extended periods does horrible (maybe permanent) things to the chemistry within. A burst of rapid charges may or may not correct that problem depending on the specific cell health so that SOH can be pulled back up again. Anecdotal evidence shows Nissan Leafs used as a taxi can reach 100,000 miles without losing a battery bar despite (or because of) several rapid charges per day. Our particular 2017 Leaf was getting 2 slow charges per day for several months resulting in a rather quick drop in SOH (putting us in the lower 10th percentile of battery life for a 2017 30 kwh) as shown by Leafspy. I'm exclusively using rapids for a while now to see if I can reverse that. It'll be interesting to see what the data shows after a few hundred miles.

Don't Hyundai's come with a 7 year warranty anyway?.

You can check the battery State of Health and lots of other nerdy data from the Ioniq systems, by using a Konnwei KW902 bluetooth OBD reader and the android app Soul EV Spy: play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.evranger.soulspy

Can we make some kind of petition over the whole Europe - Petition that any vehicle with traction battery, including hybrids, plugins and electric must have a user accessible data about battery capacity in %% compared to new battery?? I will sign.

green needs to be 100-90, at 80 you have barely half the useful cycles left

Why do so many EV owners fixate on battery degradation? We never had a standardised metric for petrol engine wear, so a purchaser couldn't tell whether the car had regularly been taken to the redline on a cold engine, for example - all they had was a parade of stamps in the service record saying the oil was changed. A replacement engine in an ICE costs about the same as a replacement battery in an EV. In the very early days, with poor thermal management and with naive battery technology there was a problem, but that only applies to the very earliest EVs and only lasted for a handful of years - a bit like the damage caused to an early ICE driven with the choke full on, but that took nearly a century to solve. The evolution of EV technology has happened MUCH faster than the evolution of ICE. Let's not fixate on trying to solve problems which no longer exist and giving EVs a bad name in the process.

As for how to explain to noobs? Well, 95% or more, means "as new" or "dark green", 85%-95% "slightly used" or "light green", 75%-85% - "used" or "yellow", 65%-75% - "noticeably degraded" or "orange". 55%-65% - "heavily degraded" or "dark orange", below 55% "exhausted" or "red". Any abnormality in balancing gives a yellow flag. If it has not been fixed within a month it is a red flag with warning light on the dash. If vehicle supports rapid charging then have also green, yellow and red flag in that as well (batteries tend to lose capability for rapid charging due to increased resistance). I believe yellow flag should be pulled when charging from 10% to 80% takes 25% more time than new. And red flag when it takes 50% more time (battery at 20*C as a minimum). All that data must be accessible from by standardized OBD2 protocol. By law. Since.. lets say. 2020.

You guys who make videos on EV’s need to learn more about the battery technologies, charging processes and his the batteries are built, cooled etc. And comment on the value of cars based on the type of batteries used. The variation of battery quality, life etc is enormous. Lithium ion batteries do not degrade uniformly. Once they degrade to say 70% they need to be replaced. Also lithium ion batteries are susceptible to temperature and will burn once they are compromised, exposed to air or water. So how the battery packs are assembled is very important. Write about that. Know battery technology.

ODB has it all. You just need to understand the info. I feel like buying an electric car is still an enthusiast thing right now so... And if the amounts those cars are sold for don't make you one; then you probably have enough money to gamble it like that.

Feel a business opportunity here .. garages who start to lose service work( ice cars) as electric cars become more popular , garage could invest in the battery management knowledge and diagnostic equipment sure people would pay a fee to get accurate battery survey on potential purchase

This should be government mandated. Just like smog testing.

In terms of tools, yes they are technical, really that is life. ie you need to know what you are doing, its like taking drugs you go to the GP to get the right ones for your problem and how much. The big issue here is many garages are going to be useless, they are mechanical ppl and not electrical or electronics ppl and hence I suspect many will be of no value to you in the short term anyway. Second problem is they are also vested interests so an EV has little to maintain and hence little they can charge for, dying breed really.

Your life consists of charging batteries. EVs end up just like your cellphone. They need constant charging.

Lithium-ion batteries all degrade with time and use so by definition they are consumables just as tires, wiper blades, etc. are. Just replace your battery pack every 4 or 5 years with a new or refurbished one and don't worry about degradation.

I would consider a battery has failed at 70%. I know Hyundai does, too.