Click here to watch the Chevy Colorado ZR2 bent frame video: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/jteZoJh9tqeudmw.html

As an auto engineer, I gotta say watching some of this is at times a bit painful... A pintle hitch does not necessarily offer more roll articulation than a ball hitch, and neither of these bent frames had anything to do with the hitch anyway. The hole pictured in the bent frame is right in the middle of the rail. That's where you'll commonly find them because it's in the null axis, or zero stress area of the frame. The top and bottom of the frame see the most stress in a bending situation, and holes there would be bad. Too long a shock on the Gladiator could definitely play a part. If the shock is fully compressed BEFORE the axle hits the jounce stop, any further movement of the suspension is stopped 100% through the shock mounts, and tongue load at the hitch would rise very quickly as an impulse load into the frame. Now instead of the frame carrying the weight above the axle, while the section behind the axle is trying to bend down, the frame is carrying the load at the shock mounts well forward of the axle, and that same tongue load now has a longer lever in effect acting to bend the frame at the shock mounts. The longer the lever, the easier it is to bend something. Finally, tire size has nothing to do with either of these. The tire size has no influence on how the frame, springs, and axle carry or handle weight like this. The tire "spring rate" from pressure really only matters once the vehicle has completely used up all available suspension travel, and even then it's really not likely to make much difference, whether at 50psi or 20psi. The whoop theory is right on. I'd bet money that both drivers overcooked some sort of dip, and trailer weight became tongue weight, probably with a good application of tow vehicle brakes thrown in at the same time to amplify it. You simply can't put that much vertical force into the hitch of a light truck like these and expect that the frame won't give. That kind of loading is simply behind what is reasonable.

Thanks for having me on. Excellent topic.

I find it rare that any warranty is actually ever stood by.

They are made in the cheapest way possible and sold at the highest possible price.

Now there's an engineer I could sit down and have a beer with. Smart and has practical experience. We all know what really happened with these trucks.

i hauled cars back when GM went to the hydroformed frames ,We were bending the frames tieing them down to the truck .GMblamed us for tieing them down to tight .They would not own up to the fact that they are JUNK.

Its called "shock loading". Lets say the truck is rated for 500lbs of tongue weight. That rating is a static rating. Lets say the truck has 12inches of wheel travel. Now you drive to fast off road hit big bumps and bottom out the suspension. That 500lbs turns into 1000lbs or more. Its the same reason why hydraulic hoses have 2 ratings, "working pressure" and "burst pressure" for shock loading. It is no coincidence that both these trucks were driving in high speed off road area while towing an off road trailer. Try putting 1000lbs of weight in your truck bed nice as easy, the truck may sag 1inch. Now take that 1000lbs of weight and drop it from 1feet height into the truck bed"shock load". Shock absorbers and tires have nothing to do with this issue. The truck was not designed for high speed off road while towing a trailer.

this also happens in Australia with different models of ute. That 120kg ball weight could easily be 3 fold at high speed whoops and wash outs

I can see a scenario where under the right conditions, the weight of the un-braked trailer is driving down on the ball as the truck is nose upward. This would be equivalent to a rear impact of 2-3 times the trailer weight hitting the frame at a downward diagonal. The frame did what it was designed to do for crash purposes and absorbed the impact force by bending.

The acme of skill in engineering isn't to make something that works, it is to make something that barely works

After listening to Dan and then seeing the crumple zone on the far,e segment, it makes complete sense what he is saying. That trailer in a whoop section could really be applying the same forces as a rear end impact, causing the frame to buckle as it was designed to do. Remember these frames are not built as cheap as possible, they are built as strong as liability demands. Also, they are built for the average use, not the small segment of enthusiasts.

Don't recall bent frames in the past. Could it be that the marketing folks are selling us on poorly engineerd crap. Also remember the Gladiator is a Fiat product.

Greetings from Australia. When I bought my Toyota Hlux in ‘03, the towing capacity was like 1750 kgs (quite low). Over the years, similar sized utes official tow capacity have doubled as they try to capture the big boat / caravan towing market. People have been bending utes here at that same point (as your photos show) for decades here, often associated with air ride suspension mods n pulling loads on sand tracks with high drag loads. I’m sort of thankful for my pathetic tow rating now.

Double cab + Heavy load behind the axle + Heavy tongue weight on the hitch point + Heavy trailer + Towing on rough terrain = Bend frame

Awesome videos lately Tim! Takeaway here is inexperience and speed are a bad combination. Just because you have a 60k offroad truck doesnt mean it’s invincible. These things are crazy capable- but you still have to know what you are doing and where your limits are.

“When driving offroad, or working the vehicle, don’t overload the vehicle or expect the vehicle to overcome the natural laws of physics.” from the 2019 Jeep Wrangler owners manual, page 4 of the introduction.

So what I'm taking from this is if this happens, I need to put my truck back into it's original configuration before reporting it. Maybe even stage it in a shopping mall with a few groceries in it???

I am an engineer and listened to your discussion on the holes in the frame. FYI The hole that was shown does change the strength of the frame. This is because the hole was elongated at the crash bend point by design. Also more important is the comment of welding the hole, the heat added totally changes the metal structure strength. This is why semi trucks have a caution tag on the frame saying it’s illegal to weld on the frame.

I'm of the mind it was the drivers fault on why the frame bent, but I'm also in the same mind that the modern frames of these trucks are also thinner to the point of being a lot easier to bend.

Some frame expert you picked. He was on the team that allowed Tacoma frames to rot away in 2 years time.

I've said it before, I'll say it again. My 1988 Ford ranger saw a rough life. Got it when I was 14 had it till I was 22. In that time I abused that truck every day. From hauling 2 to 3 times the payload, to jumping it over water bars on logging trails. I even at one point hooked up a 30 foot inclosed car trailer, with a Chevelle inside and moved moved it into the driveway, and that was not with a hitch set up, that was off the bumper ball. I put that truck through mud holes it should have never made it out of. I hydrolocked the engine, pulled the plugs, spun it over and drove it home. It finally died when I loaned it to a buddy and he fell asleep behind the wheel and rolled it upwards of 7 times ejecting him out and killing him. The remarkable part... The frame was not bent. The axle was half ripped off and with a fresh battery it fired right up. So I'm sorry, but if a brand new truck that is marketed to be an off road type truck, can't handle some woops in the desert with a small trailer on the back, I don't want it.

I have seen full size trucks in accidents with the frame bending in the same place. Your first interview has a good idea of what happened.

Great analysis and an eye opener for guys traveling down a trail as fast as is possible instead of as fast as is practical. It's not a timed race, it's a completion competition.

The frames bend because they’re not strong enough...

dan knows his stuff. i started towing on the trails with the rubicon in the 60's and still do every chance i get all over the southwest. pintle hitch is the best for off road but a ball hitch will work within its limits. its up to the operator to know his limits. blaming the manufacture because your an idiot is not right but its done all the time.

OK, this guys exactly right and if you think about it, its quite obvious. the hitch is the point of the forces applied by the trailer, the rear axle is the fulcrum and the frame is like the lever. So the forces applied to the hitch like a weight being applied on the lever with the rear axle and tire as the point of fulcrum trying to leverage up the front end of the truck causing the frame to bend at that point. I think also their can easily be a instance of mechanical resonance from the bumps in the road. Anyone who has done any off reading with speed has experienced a set of bumps that sorta bounce you along in a rhythm that adds up to throw you out of control. These forces and stresses add up on the vehicle as well making what normally could be endured mechanically to a force so great it bends the frame via leverage as described.

Stamped hydroformed, frames that are fully boxed. "C" channel frames can twist and move without bending or breaking.

I've towed a #5000 boat and trailer all over AZ in my '07 Xterra. Including numerous trips on the Apache trail. I still drive my '07 Xterra cause it's frame is in good shape.

So moral of the story, going too fast with an offroad trailer will bed the frame. I always drive way slower and more carefully when I have a trailer on.

I've actually seen semi truck (class 8) Peterbilt tractor frames bend and brake. It can happen! Usually happens when your maxing out the capacity and drive in adverse conditions. last tractor I saw with a broken frame hauled grain/hopper trailer and the terrain to load/unload was really bad. Result, broke frame.

Title should have been "We SPECULATE Why Jeep Gladiator, Chevy Colorado ZR2 Frames Bent

Three things, 1-inferior steel metallurgy. 2- light gauge box frame construction. 3- inferior rust proofing. I have a 1984 Chevy K30 and the frame is in excellent condition. There is some surface rust, but it is still solid.

Solution... just set your truck's bed up for off-roading/camping. It's the best part about having a truck. You have a massive bed and don't need the trailer. In fact... after throwing 500 to 1000 lbs into the bed... your truck will ride a lot nicer as well!

The hammer analogy was perfect the wheel being the pivot point and the frame was made to be the weak link by the tongue weight and a good bounce this has happened to a million trucks over the years they just weren't brand new because people didn't do this with brand new trucks lol now they come ready for offroad so they get used for it sooner in their life

You summed up the discussion pretty well. The bottom line is these “mid-range” vehicles are primarily designed for highway use, because that is what 90+% of consumers use them for. The Gladiator has some off-road features added but definitely not designed to carry a heavy load. We all know that lighter weight makes better fuel economy and is a plus when 4 wheeling, so the engineers design for these characteristics. That is the opposite of what you need to haul heavy loads. When the user adds in high speeds and whoops, they are going to have problems. We should all learn from this.

Don’t forget the crash zone BS most cars and trucks have. Those areas are mint to fold up in crashes.

Something interesting, after reading this, I found that the new Mojave desert runner Gladiator has a beefed up frame from the factory, hmm. Maybe the Rubicon Gladiator should too?

First of all I'm not an engineer. I used to work for a large worldwide supplier to all major vehicle companies. My particular plant made truck frames for a different manufacturer both light truck frames and heavy duty truck frames. As mentioned all the truck frames have numerous holes, different holes have different purposes. One major reason for many of the holes is for alignment on the tooling jigs. There is a huge difference between the gage of steel for light trucks and heavy trucks. The heavy truck frames we made were all c-channel style frames where the light trucks were all boxed.

The 🔨 and head example helped a lot thanks for dumbing it down for me 😅

If GM designed a frame where an inch taller tire could bend it or hurt anything, shame on them. Who buys a 4x4 without planning to go up in tire size? Other than work trucks or trucks that will never see dirt, never mind trails.

Jeep: we are the most customizable brand on earth, unless we don’t like what you did or used the truck for.

Another reason for holes in the frame when they are placed in key high stress areas is to reduce or "kill" stress cracks that may form in those areas of a fully boxed frame.

​ @Pickup Truck Plus SUV Talk - Great video!!! Finally some engineering perspective. I think the dynamics of the trailer over the bump/whoops is spot on. A 5000lb tow capacity frame pulls 2000lb straight, np easy. Drop that 2000lb weight from 4' and it could be a different story. When the trailer is going down while the truck is going up it's even worse. Engineers are NOT perfect. But until one deals with all the design and cost constraints one doesn't know the challenges that exist to pull it all together. Solid video, subbed!

I haven't read this theory yet, so here it goes. Back when trucks and jeeps were trucks and jeeps, a degree of flex was built into the frames. This helped absorb forces that we are discussing here but the issue was at speed, with a static load, the tightness and ride quality was not that of a refined passenger vehicle. In a truck from the 70's, you can feel the flex in the frame between the pickup bed and the cab. Much like trees, what flexes doesn't break and always snaps back. So when they started designing these as passenger vehicles, to demonstrate refinement and ride, they tightened up the frame. So that degree of flex and ability to absorb shock within the frame is gone. In other words, ironically, the frames are way too stiff. Not strong, STIFF. A strong frame with a degree of flex built into it would have helped. That's why modern day class 8 trucks still run a C channel frame, not a fully boxed frame. To put it another way, watch: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/ir6Yqdqcq6_aYKM.html Another example is where Chevy and Ford tried to show better quality than Toyota by showing the trucks driving over a bumpy section of road. kzfaq.info/get/bejne/fbCKibiftMrZeGg.html The Toyota always was flexing over the bumps, and they thought this was bad. But when was the last time you saw a Toyota frame bent?

Just buy the tent and some half racks and install it on your bed. Done.

funny that he should mention the Raptor considering there have been several with this same failure going over woops. I forget what year model they made a slight tweak to the frame (slightly thinner, different cutouts) but there's some really good info out there on the failures and several aftermarket fixes (most of them bolt-on)

I would think a pintle hook would provide more flexible but could also introduce a slide hammer effect ?

aftermarket shocks can't melt steel frames

What I learned is that you should buy one of these after they bend the frames for pennies on the dollar then weld support on the frames and wheel the shit out of them!

I think it's the same mechanism that caused the bent Raptor frames; only in that case to was caused more by the speed then weight on the vehicle. It seems to be that is all these cases the axle is coming into the frame bump so hard that they are bending at that point. Ford engineers replied that something has to give; either the truck bucks hard and goes end over end, or the frame bends and you survive.

My guess about the shocks being too long is that they are bottoming out before the axle contacts the bump stop , this could change the point on the frame that the load is applied to next to the shock mount and right where the frame bent . Also if the shock bottoms out it would be a hard stop unlike a bump stop that would be a cushioned stop . Shocks bottoming out are very common on lifts that don’t extend or move the bump stop

How come i don’t see Any Toyota’s bending frames or any full size trucks with bigger trailers. Maybe these little trucks are just not designed very well and were made as light as possible for emissions reasons rather than being strong to handle the abuse of off-road driving

Australia is a huge market for overland trailers. There roads are far more teresress and longer do they have the same problem? Or is it they may have better vehicles? For example Toyota 79 4 door with a tray back towing a trailer, usually the trailer will come apart way before the vehicle.

The rear overhang is a key part of the problem; particularly crew-cab vehicles. Some aftermarket receiver hitches can set the ball even further back than others. I'd suspect that the hitch static load was too high to start with, and possibly the truck tray was overloaded leading to bottoming of the rear suspension. When this happens, the inertial loads on the hitch (and bending loads on the frame) go to the moon; beyond the frame's capacity to resist.

I agree throwing in a loaded trailer. The fact the vehicles are not tested in those scenarios gets complicated but also lights the bulb

Trucks aren't built like they used to be. They're built to be more car like.

That notch in the frame below the hole on the ZR1 frame is a designed in crumple point. Once a force load exceeds a designed in threshold, the frame will bend at that location to absorb and dissipate that input load. The intent is a striking impact in the rear of the vehicle will be absorbed and dissipated before it is transmitted to the occupants of the vehicle. I think the best description would be best understood as whiplash. The kind of impact which causes neck and back injuries. I do not think it has to do much with the hitch design as to whether it is a pintle hook or ball hitch. Either way, the hitch is taking the trailer load mass and inertia and transferring it to the frame rails at the rear of the vehicle. Just like in a rear end crash by a following motor vehicle. When you think about it, that trailer at the end of the day is a closely following vehicle with considerable mass and momentum. If sensors were placed on the hitch and frame rails where the failure happened, and the desert driving conditions were duplicated, I bet most people would be astonished at the loads that 2000 to 3500 pound loaded trailer was putting on those hitch and frame rails at the back of the truck. I personally do not think the larger wheels and lifted suspension themselves made much of a difference other than it made the ride more comfortable in the rough stuff, so the driver felt it was ok to drive at higher speeds because if the improved ride and road impact absorption. It’s part of the reason vehicles like these have lower towing capacity. It’s not necessarily the lack of engine and brake power, but the ability of the vehicle structure to handle the towing loads and forces.

Was expecting video of this an video showing an explaining very informative but. Seeing in action is why i clicked the youtube vid...lol

I think it's interesting that in the case of both vehicles featured here, slide in campers are not recommended by the manufacturers.

So it sounds like going through the whoops while towing caused forces that emulated a rear end collision.

Dan knows his stuff

A lot of people fail to calculate vehicle and payload weight along with trailer tow weight people just think since they have a 4 wheel drive or certain brand of 4 wheel drive and aftermarket suspension they can do anything

I have a thought as to why the Colorado and Gladiator bent where they did aside from the trailers weight. If you notice they both bent in the same spots dang near. The reason why for this is that there is no structural rigidity between the bed and the cab. It's the same kind of effect of a bridge without it's trusses would lack it's structural rigidity. How often do you see an SUV bend it's frame in this way?

Well said. The frames are designed to crumple in a crash so the frame received a load or impact that was as severe as a crash. Plain and simple. Drivers fault.

Let me make it easy for you.... poor quality steel being used in the frame materials and thickness are being cut to save weight and maintain EPA MPG requirements. I should be able to tear the trailer hitch off before the frame bends. FGS... it’s only held on by 6-8 bolts.

Simple. It’s like a CrossFit rope. Move up and down and it creates a wavelike motion from end to end of the vehicle and trailer. You would think the tow attachement point would be the weakest and break there. But the frame is the one that broke. Cheap, weak, especially with weight on bed and trailer.

I own a2022 colorado and I reinforced the fram at the problem area now I carry @ 1200lb slide in camper and tow less then 3000 lbs with no problems

In my opinion, the frame is to thin

Nice to hear with the expert engineers said. But for realistic use these trucks in their stocki configurations are inappropriate for any off-road use

Small crew cab/short bed trucks tend to have much more bed behind the rear axle than ahead of it, if it even has any bed ahead of the axle. Therefore, most of the load in the bed is behind the rear axle. Add a trailer with a tongue weight at or near the limit for the truck, then go over a big hump and bottoming out, something has to give. Each item along won't bend the frame, but put them all together and you have a perfect storm.

The fact the rear axle is forward of the mid point of the bed in both truck will tell everyone that is creating a weak spot under certain circumstances! The fact this has not yet happened to a long bed crew cab Colorado, or even Ext bed Colorado might support my ideas!

Load, Axis, Angle, Weight, Terrain, Resistance, Pressure, Kinetic Energy, Speed, all play key roles in the frame being bent! Worked for Toyota for 13 Years, Master Tech. And ASE Certified! Plus 10 Years Independent!

What works good on road doesn't work too well off roading and vice versa. Frames have many design elements to them, strength, safety, fuel economy (weight) etc. With so many vehicle configurations its hard to make one that is perfect in every situation. Without good information and pictures, its difficult to tell what exactly caused it, but since both vehicles where towing trailers, that is a good place to look at. I was doing some background studies on light utility trailer towing and found that with a class 3 hitch, if one leaves their receiver mount in and they get rear-ended, it would be enough to kink or bend the frame, so this does make total sense, a good "pull back" or "sudden" shock load could in-fact bend the frame. If you look at it in terms of "fall protection" a 220lbs worker that falls 6 feet can place a strain of 2500lbs (without a shock absorber system) which is a lot of shock weight, so you can imagine a 2,000lbs trailer and a 200lbs tongue weight without a shock absorber system can do to a frame, it does not take much! speed, weight will always be an enemy.

Pretty simple, whoops and washboards + speed = bent frames. Add a tongue load, and it's exacerbated. The point where they are bent is right at the transition from the deeper frame rails under the cabs, and to the shallower rails under the bed. There could be a stress joint that isn't properly reinforced for the duty use. The current gen Raptor has a modified frame, as the first gen Raptors were known to bend frames. Granted, in every case they went full send off a sick jump, but the point is there.

Holes in frame are for locating the metal in fixtures while processing .

wonder if it will be seen in half ton pickups giving them increasingly higher tow ratings when you really should tow with 3/4 or 1 ton single rear wheels. and duells for the 20,000

Great Video Tim! Good job with the engineers.

This is unfortunate. Though I must say, It never happened in my 2016 Chevy 2500, and I’ve towed near max while full-timing for 2 years. It’s a shame the manufacturers won’t honor their warranty. Hope it works out.

Every one of these in Australia is because of too much force too far behind the wheel. The back axle is the fulcrum. Moving weight exerts a lot more force than static weight. Rest a brick on your foot, then drop the same brick onto your foot from shoulder height. It's the same weight. When the back of the truck rises out of the dip, its trying to rapidly lift the weight while the trailer is still pointing down.

Crumble zones on the frame a are weak points. That’s why a lot of prerunners box the frames. I think the trucks are made poorly. They should try it on the 1500 trucks and see what happens.

That is the answer. . . Be a smart off road driver.

That could happen from shock load from off-roading while towing. Anything can bend or break from shock I think

User error is easily the most common cause of product failures. And it doesn't matter if the product is a ratchet where someone decided to use a five foot pipe on it as a breaker bar and broke the ratchet or it's a near fifty thousand dollar truck where someone was driving sixty miles an hour on a dirt road where they should have been going twenty five, didn't see the two foot deep washout with a trailer in tow and ended up with a near fifty thousand dollar paperweight. If I were in charge of any truck manufacturer I would certainly put a little more beef in the frames as it really doesn't take much to add significantly more strength. However, having said that, every truck on the market will perform to it's rated specifications without trouble. But some folks want to do more than the rated specifications. They want to take a stock truck that obviously doesn't have the capacity to do many of the tasks the owner wants it to do and they try to do them anyway. The truck breaks and they realize they may have just pissed away a small fortune so they pretend it was a manufacturing defect. This guy had an accident and whether he wasn't paying attention, goofing around or simply didn't see an obstacle is irrelevant. An accident falls under the category of insurance claim not manufacturer defect.

Thanks for the update info. this explains a lot.

I’ll stick with my 80 series Landcruiser, thanks.

Engineers take into account something we learned in high school. Centrifugal force!

I jumped a 76 Blazer pulling a ski boat as a teen (by accident or stupidity) and drove it another 250,000 miles without frame trouble. I'd say the problem is with poorly designed and manufactured boxed frames. Still have a a 1982 1 ton that sometimes has the front wheels bounce loading tractors. No issues with it.

Pintle hitches are too jerky! For off road use you really need a lock n roll or max coupler drawbar assembly.

Just dont waste your money on a Gladiator.

Kinda hard to imagine 1” bigger tires , even LT tires make that big of a difference. Especially with all the built trucks that are just giving it hell out there with no issues. I plan on buying a new 21 ZR2 and I’m not worried about it. I don’t think it’s a common issue. If nothing else I feel this video made people more aware of their off road driving to take it easy. Drive smart !

I agree with Dan. If they had used a Ram Power Wagon it would have had a much larger tongue weight rating. On the other hand, the Power Wagon is a much larger, cumbersome, longer wheelbase, with a wider turning radius. Thus it does not have the "Trail Rating" of a Wrangler.

them old ass land cruisers never had frame issues with overloaded hitches

The framer are literally designed to yield in a rear impact. That's why certain areas are designed to bend.

Strange no one in the group had either a dash or gopro camera filming, I believe the driver was having fun jumping on the trail, once damaged hooked up the trailer and took pictures, just to get the truck repaired

I would have also loved to properly inspect the gladiator, I know JLs have issues with seam welding on the frames, I've seen welds that are 70-80% off the seams, that's bad. If you own one I'd recommend you check that out to see if it's a long term keeper or not. Although I've never heard horror stories about it and I believe it was the object of a recall for a given number of trucks.

Should have bought a Unimog :)

I'm shocked people are still suprised another jeep failed catastrophically ..... I see more gladiators in crappy sleazebag used car lots than on the road driving. I don't even need to talk about the Chevy....it's a Chevy. What's it doing off-road? Half the problems between the seat and the steering wheel anyway. There's a loose nut that needs replacing.

There’s so many factors and this video is super informative I’d like hear from some Australians those guys have been doing some serious off road towing for years and their trailers or “caravans” reflect that.

Thank you! At 6:00 and 9:40 the engineer gentleman used a term my kids pick on me about. There's a section in out dirt bike trails I've named the whoopty do. They look at me funny and say, "Uh, what's a whoopty do and where'd you think up that term?" To them it sounds like a funny combination of words. To our generation it seems instinctual. That explanation with the exponential trailer forces at the tongue during those whoops seems highly plausible.