Tommy, if you're reading this, my parents were just like you. Hard working, extremely responsible and frugal with money in most ways, very future-oriented and optimizing for security/disasters. My dad was diagnosed with stage 4 cancer at 63 and died within a year. My mom spent 14 years as a widow, refusing to spend money on things that made her unhappy every day, like the color of the deck, or the refrigerator she was pressured into buying that didn't actually work for her. Every time I visited, she complained about things like that but refused to spend money to change them because she thought it was too self-indulgent. In March she was diagnosed with stage 4 cancer and had a massive stroke in april. she died in may and left behind 7 million dollars. my siblings and i were in complete shock and i actually have some lingering anger about this. don't think you're immortal, we're all going to die and we REALLY don't know when. please let go of the fear of uncertainty and just enjoy your time with your family.

“There is no virtue in living a smaller life”. That is a very powerful statement.

Life lesson: My parent in laws worked and saved their whole life- planned to retire. They both got diagnosed with cancer within 2 months. They both died in their early 60s. I used to think- "When I have money- I'll take them out to a fancy dinner." Now I have the money but I dont have them. My heart is broken. Dont waste time. Make smart decisions but goddamn- LIVE and ENJOY being alive. This is one of my biggest regrets but I hope anyone reading this takes it as sage advice. Dont learn lessons my way.

Please remember: These are real people who had the courage to come on my podcast and ask for help. Would you be willing to come on this podcast and share every detail of your financial life? Feel free to leave comments based on what you think, but remember that we are here to help in a supportive way, not to demean and criticize.

He's been saving his whole working life for this trip to New Zealand. It's time to take the trip! Loved these two

My MIL is a huge saver, and has a net worth over $1 million plus a $5K a month pension income in her mid-70s (which is not all spent, so her savings keep growing). Both of her sons are very financially successful. We’ve been telling her recently to start spending her money; we don’t need it and we don’t want it. Go down south for the winter. Buy her dream condo. Travel with friends. Die with zero. Very difficult for someone who still uses the same Tupperware she received as a wedding gift in the early 70s, 😂

18:09 “You already have the money, the health, a loving partner, you have kids …. YOU WON!!” Hearing this from Ramit Sethi would probably be my biggest achievement in every lifetime…. Thank you for everything you do Ramit! Changing lives out here…. (without being a doctor😂)

Tommy, you need to live now. Every single day is gift. Live your life!! Sincerely, a hospice nurse in Florida.

Every time Tommy says he doesn't have enough money and Ramit's eyes looks at the other screen (which I am assuming had their numbers), I laughed! This was such a great example of how it is NOT about the numbers. Thank you so much Tommy for your honesty. He was great and and smiled through it all.

I relate a lot to Tommy a lot. He seems to base his self worth off of how hard he works. His resistance is not about how much he has in the bank or how much he spends, it’s about his inability to accept he’s done enough and can start to relax now

Man I can relate to Tommy. My net worth isn't in the millions, but I have come to realize I'm living much smaller than I have to. I used to focus on price completely when making decisions and always purchased things when they were on sale. So hard to break these patterns and move price down the list of priorities when buying something. I bought a $130 hoodie that wasn't on sale and love it every time I put it on. I never would have done this a year ago. Oh and it didn't bankrupt me. 😂

About a half hour in and it's a little wild how many money issues seem to come from people not being willing to honestly face the reality of aging and dying. Really good reminder.

Covid taught me to not sweat the small stuff. I lingered over buying name brand trash bags for $6 .00 and I was debt free. It’s a journey but I’m getting there. Took two vacations this year and didn’t blink twice.

We were planning a big family trip ... My parents (78), me and my kids (19 and 21), my siblings and their kids. COVID hit so we postponed. Well ... my son passed away and instead of him being with us, I spread his ashes in Iceland. Take the fking vacation before it's too late if you can afford it. Tomorrow is not a guarantee.

The lady is adorable and smiley. Wishing them lots of years of love and happiness.

Tommy is not having a money problem. He’s having an existential problem. He’s afraid of death. I wanted you to ask him about his relationship with his dad. What is unresolved within him that he is too fearful to live full out? Until he resolves it, he will never feel safe enough to spend.

I don’t feel like Tommy has a problem with spending necessarily. I actually believe that he has a hard time not being the smartest person in the room. He didn’t think Ramit could teach him anything, and he doesn’t even trust that his own financial guy’s formula is right. If you’re not willing to learn, you won’t make changes. He says he learns hearing new perspectives, but I have a feeling it’s just so he can compare them to his own to verify that he’s still the smartest one in the room.

Caroline just wants to go on a nice holiday and have a blowout without Tommy stressing her out 🎉

Tommy when you leave this world, you’re not taking the money with you. Enjoy life and make memories with your family! You worked hard all these years, you deserve to enjoy the fruits of your labor while still budgeting and saving.

I don't get why the guy says he needs to save up for the NZ trip. Isn't that EXACTLY what he has been doing for the last umpteen years...saving up? Why does the clock on the idea for the trip only start now? Indeed, Tommy himself said he had been thinking about the trip already, which means he HAS been saving up...for the trip...even starting the savings clock more recently. His attitude about saving for the trip is just a security blanket for insecurities. If he doesn't change, Caroline needs to go by herself.

YES!!!! Thank you for sharing a more mature couple!!! I was getting a little discouraged seeing all these 20 year olds on the show. Really appreciate diversity in all forms!

I love how she smiles... when she realizes a moment that he is about to be told exactly what she's been probably saying already

Tommy needs a therapist to work thru that trauma / fear. End of story.

Tommy is stuck in his ways. Like he's literally stuck in a middle class mindset. Not joking - he probably needs to talk through this with a psychologist to get to the bottom of it.

My uncle passed last year. He converted a cinder block chicken coop into living quarters when he was 24 and lived there for 56 years. He died at 80 and left behind $10 million dollars. He always talked about buying a house and finding a wife but he never could do it. He never owned a phone, had a computer, or even had a kitchen. He drove 50 miles each way to trade stocks. I hope it was worth it and what he left behind is used wisely.

Tommy: My husband was the healthiest guy I knew! At 66, when going to a formal he was suddenly unable to tie his bowtie. He was concrrned. Two months later he was diagnosed with Parkinson’s. Two years later as it progressed unusually rapidly he was diagnosed with corticobasel syndrome. His body locked up completely and two years later he passed. We had plenty of $$. We had bought our dream sailboat. But we couldn’t stop that disease. Tommy, you need to start spending- add on the new layer Ramit is suggesting. Good luck and enjoy what you have worked so hard for.

Coming back from vacationing in Latin America, it was so much fun and I got a lot of exercise 😂 But had I waited until I was a senior citizen to go, it would have been either too exhausting or I would have needed so many accommodations that it wouldn't have been nearly as immersive. Go while you have the capacity to go!

THANK YOU for having the podcast on KZfaq now! As you mentioned, being able to see their nonverbal reactions helps us understand their situation more and how you help them move forward.

Thank you for this podcast and video, Ramit! (And thank you to this couple who were willing to share their story). I watched (and really enjoyed!) your recent Netflix series but found most of the couples in the series less relatable than these folks. My husband is “the spender” in our marriage and is much more easy-going with money. I am the saver and am extremely anxious and uptight about spending. I relate to Tommy! But over the years, I've come to realize it’s better and healthier to adopt a more moderate and balanced approach. My husband and I have actually learned from each other over the years; we are from opposite ends of the financial spending “spectrum” and as such, have found a sort of balance with each other, learning how to “meet in the middle”. I confess that is it often still a struggle for me to spend....but I know the struggle is emotional and not financial.

I truly feel sorry for people like Tommy. If $6 million is enough $6 billion still wouldn't be enough it's never enough for people like him. I truly hope he gets some real help to get over this mindset.

He needs to practice some generosity. He lives with a closed fist when it comes to money. That’s why he also has a hard time spending it.

Ramits job is hard I realize. He is phenomenal at what he does given the sensitivities of money

It may be hard to believe, but the average person has little better than a 50-50 chance of making it from age 50 to age 70 without dying or incurring a critical illness (cancer, cardiovascular disease, kidney failure, Alzheimer’s, Parkinson’s, etc). Despite improvements to our longevity, there are very real risks surrounding traditional retirement ages that should not be ignored. Tommy may very well have some real longevity risk in his genes to be concerned about, though increased longevity doesn't necessarily equate to disease & disability-free years during all of retirement. While Tommy clearly isn’t a gambler with money, he is content to gamble his time… after all, he’s going to live to 100, right? He feels he has more time than money. There is danger in this mindset as tomorrow isn’t guaranteed. Your health, cognition, and mobility decline as you age no matter who you are. The utility of your money will change as you age to the point where you may not be able to get as much meaning from it. Don’t miss out on too many ‘Go-Go’ years with Caroline. For a precision saver, investor, planner... and optimizer - Tommy should take on the next challenge to optimize the next ~40 years of his life, should he live to 100. How can he efficiently trade his money for meaning, without leaving too much on the table? All that meaning left on the table would be a shame. If he doesn’t have ‘to the dollar’ plans for all that money, every year, every decade of retirement - it is all irrational fear. Travel, concerts, sporting events… that Florida vacation home that will be a MAGNET for their adult children to visit and make memories with them. Build that fictitious budget and just TRY to spend it on experiences. Be realistic about the go-go/slow-go-/no-go phases… travel and entertainment will drastically change in your 70's, 80’s and 90’s. Material things are easy blow money on, but keep thinking about experiences - it will be more difficult than you realize and some experiences only belong in your 60's. Don't miss out on them. Even with average market returns, Tommy and Caroline’s nest egg will become very difficult to spend down with Tommy’s mindset. It will become a run-away, extra-large portfolio ballooning beyond their ability to convert it to meaning in their lifetimes. If their kids don’t need or want their money, despite the fact it makes Tommy ‘feel good’, what’s the point? Memento Mori. (Remember that you have to die).

I haven't finished watching, only at 15 minutes, but as soon as you said he was an entrepreneur, most of his life i was thinking boom. There, it is the classic scarcity mindset of the self employed.

The follow up messages had me rolling! 😂 Great conversation! Thank you to the couples and Ramit for letting us listen in and learn from you!

First off, thanks to Tommy and Caroline for sharing their finances and emotions in what was clearly an uncomfortable conversation (I mean that in the most positive way!). This was a great discussion Ramit. I really hope that they can find a way to prioritize happiness and worry less about the monetary security (which they already have). As an optimizer, I really empathize with Tommy. It has to be very difficult to unpeel/redefine the part of your identity that made you successful, but it absolutely has to change for both of you to be happy. You earned a sub Ramit!

So glad I found this podcast. I've felt like I've needed a financial therapist for some time, but cant imagine talking to someone about my debilitating inability to stop saving and start living lest they roll their eyes and play tiny violins. I can absolutely relate to Tommy and the younger FIRE couple with 4.3 mil. A scarcity mentality was branded into me at a formative age and no amount of money is ever gonna make me feel secure. And i take a lot of pride in my frugal identity. As I cross into my second half of life, i realize that money is no longer scarce but time may well be. I liked Caroline's follow up comment about "memories over money" and Ramit's story (from the other couple) about buying sharper clothes in his 20s. I'll never be interested in being a snappy dresser, but i take the point that STARTING from a place of meaning is better now than starting from cost. Thank you for filling a void for those of us struggling to stop hoarding and start living.

2023 the year of more Mr. Chill! Wishing you all the best, enjoy your many years of labor and live your rich life to the fullest!

It would be good to do a follow-up session with Tommy and Caroline a year later.

So we’re not gonna say that Tommy is controlling and stubborn and is an asshole to his wife? Ok. This is borderline financial abuse. Caroline might need to separate her retirement funds so she can have some peace and enjoy some of her retirement.

This session really had my wheels turning. I am great at saving, live debt free and live well within my means. I need to work on induing and treating myself.

I LOVE THIS SOOOOOooo MUCH. It was SO GOOD. Tommy has a great personality and it was cool that he was receptive to Ramit's "financial therapy" session. Loved the name of the accountant on his shoulder 🤣 I'm nowhere near their net worth at the moment but I still found this episode to be very insightful into financial mindsets... and I can definitely apply the concepts of 2 different personalities for decision-making, as most people (including myself) generally seem to have just 1 very dominant view on life.

When I used to prepare for competitive exam (I did it for 3 years) and after I successfully cracked it and made it into institute I wanted, still I was continuously thinking about exam at least for a year.. If doing something for 3 years can make you so much ingrained in you, I can understand what tommy must have gone through. Thanks for sharing this video.

I fell in love with Caroline's laugh. also Tommy seems like a great guy.

Hi Ramit! Hope this finds you well. I've casually gone through some of your Spotify Podcasts, however, for the first time 10-15 mins into the Podcast I wished if I could somehow "see" you guys talking, and came here just in case you have posted the Episode here. Having gone through each and every second of these ninety mins with my Wife listening to this and calling me Tommy-like (😜jokingly, of-course), here are my two cents: 1. With folded hands - Respect you for your PATIENCE, throughout! 😊🙏 Hallelujah! 🙌🙌🙌 2. Caroline seemed like not knowing her math initially but a lot "sad" throughout most of the call and kinda "relieved" by the end. So happy for her! :) 3. Tommy seemed like a slave of his own thinking, which was certainly and 100% correct-thinking back in the day, which brought him to this "multi-million-dollar" position, however, such an overkill now. However, I felt from 10-15 mins onwards that this thinking is really deep-rooted and not because of his age but some "psychological issue" maybe as a child or seeing his Parents struggle (as, I feel, aptly pointed out by some Love Coach in the comments below). I too wish you'd probably gone there... Anyway... Ramit, wish I could meet you in person bro! 😊 Tommy & Caroline, if you guys are reading this: Wish you guys the best and hope you see "Italy" and "NZ" both, very soon. :) Love from India! 💌 N.

This video is exactly what I needed to see.

Good thing that she's agreeable. She could take $3M and the lawyers would get the $0.3M if she felt like it. She could even upgrade to Bluetooth headphones.

What a great couple! I feel like they were both open to the discussion. I really appreciated hearing from a more mature family and a second marriage. They were so endearing that I couldn't help but root for them! Caroline's comment about the lottery was dead on. I wish them continued health, happiness and success!

So glad to see an older couple being interviewed; I listened to the end. You cannot buy time & good health…enjoy yourselves, your family/friends…spend some money on experiences! Italy and New Zealand…go for it! One day perhaps I fly business class, until then I’ll go economy plus!

this is why i prefer ramit sethi vs dave ramsey. dave is too cut throat whereas ramit poses questions and allows the people to decide.

Tommy, if you're reading this, I feel for you. I understand that you can't know what future catastrophes are ahead. No one does. But what a shame if you misspend the time you are privileged to share with someone you love and who loves you. Take the trip NOW and pay yourself back.

At the very beginning so much awesome thoughts, amazing skills, awesome listenings & hearing, phasing, questioning the people! Will come back to listen the whole interview.

This was a great episode. Really goes to show you how the feeling of being rich is so relative.

Simply brilliant coaching

This was a bit stressful to watch.The Italy trip can be to celebrate her retirement!! yay! My father has cancer now and one of the things we all talk about is how many great memories we have had together- including trips with spouses and grandkids. These were not big-budget trips, but the memories are truly priceless.

Tommy seems like a nice guy, while also being a hypocrite. He justifies spending (probably) exuberant amount of money on concerts and sporting events. But won't "allow" Caroline to spend on what she feels she's (in his own words towards his spending) earned, without bitching and complaining about it.

I raised a fuss when my wife wanted to upgrade from wired headphones to Bluetooth. Now I can't believe I used wired headphones. 😂 Worth EVERY PENNY.

Great topic - thanks Ramit. I somewhat suffer from the same situation and trying to adjustment my way of thinking about money (scarcity mindset). A good book to read is Die with Zero by Bill Perkins.

Omg! I used to ignore your videos here in youtube… but I’m watching your netflix show and I LOVE IT! love watching it. And i just subscribed to your KZfaq channel and planning to get your book and journal. Love your show! Thank you! 👍🏼👍🏼😊

One cancer diagnosis will totally rock your world and change priorities.

Great episode!

Great episode

Here is the deal with us “older” folks that have wealth…speaking for myself, I have been frugal all of my working years..lived below my means, not spending on designer clothes and driving a Ford hybrid for the past 8 years..The envy of NO ONE~perfect! Now, there is nothing I really want..no need to impress ..It is hard to change frugal ways…I live a very middle class life even though I would be considered wealthy..I am fulfilled.

I loved this!

Wow Rammit! You are doing amazing work here!! ❤❤❤ Excellent job!

I see bits of myself in Tommy. Thanks Ramit for the crystal ball comment…we can go to far on the savings extreme

I can relate! Great raw episode.

I wish, I saw this as my issue! To have it with no thought or real concern. Life is short Tommy and you cannot take it with you. Enjoy it while you’re still able. The memories you make will be all that remains when you can’t walk and move like you once did. 🙏🏽❤️

Man really entered that gaming state where he gets dopamine from saving money. It's reaaaaally hard to change it. Just like any other addiction. People just don't treat it as such, cause it seems to be a positive addiction. And it is positive, to some extent.

48:39 Here I talk about how your Conscious Spending Plan and your calendar reflect what season of life you are in. What does yours say about you?

Great episode as always, but I'm especially tickled by the excited yoga ball bouncing 😁

Love your work. Love the breakdowns as I'm s careers advisor helping wit physical and psychological transitions. I could fall into this trap, give me £1 million I would invest it!!! Drives my family mad, we have had t enforce fun money but I still secretly save some if it.

I just love these two , no disrespect to each other , no one trying to control but he is scared for whatever reason . I wish them luck

This is so powerful, it made me laugh and it made me cry, but more importantly, it made me think. I see myself slowly turning into Tommy, and I want to take a turn towards a rich life asap.

It's fascinating how someone can be intelligent enough to make millions but can't do basic math. They could burn 20k/month without even reducing their wealth by a dime, or working ever again. Love your work, Ramit.

Awesome job! Incredible

you are great dude! new fan!

Admiration for Tommy. Not an easy forum to address your demons in. There is a reason he has been successful in business, he absolutely backs himself.

This is brilliant ,,

Tommy doesn't want to be the first generation of his family to "live the dream". He feels he owes it to his ancestors to worry, but the OPPOSITE is true. He can live it up IN HONOUR OF HIS ANCESTORS, he will be happy. Just mho. 🙏

Ramit! You’re so right, the video of this is so much better than just the podcast. I’ve been listening to your podcast from the beginning. I stopped this episode with 13 mins left to come on because I had to see Tommy’s reactions. So glad I did! Thank you for these amazing conversations!

Another great vid! I love saving but I don’t think I’ll ever be like that! Especially now after seeing this.

I relate to this guy so much! Man.

He says he wishes he could win the lottery! WOW. I'm speechless. It is fustrating to hear that. And has over 6 million. I wander if he even donates some of his money to a good cause. A very scarcity mindset. So sad.

I thought it was really interesting when Tommy said he fears that if he lets himself spend at all, he'll spend too much. I also struggle with this idea sometimes too. I struggle to find balance and not live in extremes all the time, either hoarding 100% percent of my earnings or saying fuck it and spending it all. I wonder where this comes from.

The eye roll at 1:01:40 had me clutching my pearls

I thought I was pretty thrifty and cautious with money. But that part where it’s revealed that Tommy has 3 million in investments/savings, a 2 million dollar house paid off and feels he needs to save $500 per month for a year before he could afford a vacation had me LMFAO. Spend your money dude. What are you waiting for?!?!? You’ll probably make more money or break even from your investments during that trip. Saving money for a trip is what you do when you have a net worth around 5K or 50k. Not 5 million.

Tommy needs to recognize that 10 years from now, he may not be able to enjoy the money as much as he could now. He may not even be healthy enough to enjoy the money. He has worked so hard all his life for such a time as this, it would be a shame to in return, entirely miss the destination he has been aiming for all along!

I am sorry for these sad people especially for his wife as this is exactly what is happening to me apart from the massive money difference. The man should have a swap with poor people like us he would realise how much money he has. I hope he doesn't get ill with cancer or something something incurable because then he would certainly realised how stupid he is. Yes you are a D***k , your own words. So sad. I feel sorry for coreline , do get in touch I will come with you! I travel on peanuts as my narcissistic husband keeps everything secret so I have no access or control to our money. Life is too short, get a life. I can't even believe you have a discussion with them, there is too many people earning f**all and can't pay for food. I know it's their problem but seriously get a life be greatfull you worked it out and enjoy the ride!

Is it a US thing that everyone worries about having a pension they can live on? Idk as I’m in Ireland and we (hubby and me) are retired and never had it so good! We get Irish state pension which is probably same as social security in US, (approx €13000 pa each) we pay in during our worklife and get credits for the contributions. Everyone in Ireland gets it, and poor people who didn’t have work contributions get a means tested pension. There’s also numerous other payments for retirees. We get fuel credits off our electricity bill and free TV licence, worth about €600 pa. Then we get free healthcare (docs, hospital, scripts) costing €0. We also get occupational defined benefit pensions from our jobs, neither are massive but more than enough to be comfortable on. As hubby is from a different EU country so he gets 50% of the state pension of that country (as well as the Irish one) and I get a smaller percentage. With paying reduced taxes our take home is more than adequate for our fixed costs and savings and holidays and living. We don’t have the healthcare costs you have in the US and we’ve no student debt, our kids studies to master level cost them about €6k, mine was sponsored by my job, hubby’s was also sponsored by his work, and so we have nothing to payback there. We’re mortgage free too. I am jaw dropped at the US salaries and yet people seem to have no security in old age unless they invest and save millions! Our pensions are guaranteed for life, they’re index linked so go up every year and my occupational pension is linked to my work grade so increases regularly. So we have no financial worries about running out of money. I’m fact I haven’t a clue what my pension pot is as I’m only aware I’ll get it for life. And if I go first my hubby will get about 2/3 of my pension for his lifetime. I find Ramit’s podcasts fascinating!

This episode feels like a wake up call.

Loved the Big Lebowski impersonation.. don't pee on this guy's carpet. 😂

I liked this one a lot. A different perspective from the normal "we make 200K, but spend 250K/yr". I also like that they are older and helps me, someone who is younger, recognize that getting in too deep with investing/saving isn't a good thing.

An amazing video!!!

What a great episode! Hope he can be able to just relax a bit and enjoy the ONLY thing that he cannot buy or accumulate: his TIME. It's inspiring to see such an accomplished couple and it's a valuable lesson to see that our mentality does not change with more money. We must work on that in spite of it.

Did these people not learn anything from what happened during the pandemic? New Zealand closed its borders for 2 years!! Don't assume you can put off that trip until whenever. Do it now, while you're healthy and have the cash. Enjoy yourself; it's later than you think.

Tommy you won!! Enjoy your life with your wife . Life is precious.

Great video, and great coaching. Bill Perkins book “Die with Zero” address his mindset head on and makes the case why it’s begs to be examined.

You are going to leave $89 million and your kids can make like 2% and make $ 1-2 million in interest, your kids will go out and spend what you cannot-save, invest some, work some, and play some. You don't mind spending on concerts and sports, but when your wife wants to spend on something else it is not okay bc it is not something like a dress that you like. You have a double standard. You could sell the $ 2 million dollar home, buy FL $200k condo and have tons of cash left over.

So glad to hear that it’s necessary to learn how to meaningfully spend . It’s a skill that is absent from financial literacy ❤❤❤❤